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VS Battles Wiki Forum

Agnaa
Agnaa
I don't think that's very good logic for the "world at large" being some unspecified higher aleph. You changed the order of those quotes which would change their meaning, but that's not how the text presented it.

I don't understand what your proposal is for the canon rules. Most god-tiers only make sense in terms of extended canon since they were originally briefly mentioned in one article by one author, before being expanded on by another one. And we don't do original canon for an author who didn't originally write a character.
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
Also claims "existinial planes" from Ad astra though vaguely
But these existential planes are not really universes or such, they are actually Higher existinial planes and Existential planes which the universe and the normal Multiverse contain in Existinial plane 0 as outlined in the same a story. The distance between the "Planes" is actually larger than the lower and higher dimensions. Since there are two-dimensional universes that are uncountable infinite times smaller than 3D beings (a small cross-section to them) but they are all contained in the same existential plane (Existinial plane 0 - also the lowest)
This is the broader context of Ad astra , Weekly it sucks not to consider this, I think he should consider canon and its continuity instead of just taking an out of context statement, throwing it in to backing Yesod Multiverse is hard L1C

"Even if we don't do original Canon for them, it can still scale from Acidverse
I have double checked a few things and sure one thing Acidverse scale for TOK/Library is for sure, Yesod Multiverse I am not sure but very possible
Bigger things like the Noosphere are quite fallacious and they have different treatment (possibly overlap between being inside main narrative layer and covering up to several higher narrative layers consistently)
Agnaa
Agnaa
Yeah I haven't read enough of Ad Astra to evaluate the entire thing.

It might be able to scale, but idk how you'd resolve the circular scaling issues. That's my main worry.
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
The problem is the entities from Noosphere and Infosphere
The concept of ad astra looks different and is defined differently than usual because it is where Infosphere is just a subset of Noosphere, not vice versa
Also in the canon series itself of 3125 Anti memetic divisions, Noosphere < Infosphere < Idealtic Space and Idealtic space are actually Infinite-dimensional conceptual space (claimed by its original author as Qtmn) and the dimensional hierarchy of the Conceptual entities depend on their abstraction, spread, corruption, complexity. SCP-3125 is really just a 5-dimensional entity in Idealtic space, things like 033 (an integer between five and six) representing the number of dimensions of 3125 is really just a number "5" but more monstrous and strange, heavily implying that the number of dimensions in Idealtic space is independent of the conceptual nature of numbers, which is further supported when we see in SCP-5800, beings from 5-Dimensional space conceptual space embodies the concepts of Aleph numbers and the smallest difference between them is also the difference of Aleph numbers (And SCP-3125 is True God/Greater conceptual whole of Them)
Even weakest fodder like 5712 has erased and replaced the very concept of "projection" in mathematics and physics, geography. Threatening to devour all the concepts of the Noosphere
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
Also, can you tell me things could led to circular scalling of god tiers?
Maybe I'll find a way to solve them if you can tell me more about this
Agnaa
Agnaa
Like I said, if you scale the tree of knowledge to the entire narrative, then that causes circular scaling for characters who are capable of harming it, created it, predated it, etc.
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
The characters that precede or create it all have corresponding plot hax or represent the abstract Forces of the narrative itself, isabel literally "holding the heart of all stories" in the text I provide about HWMD and HWML that you asked someone on discord and they agreed
Destruction or harm is a bit more complicated, with basically no single character (expect All mighty/Isaebel/All-Death) actually doing this in isolation. Able did with Flood (which is provided by All-Mighty/Light), SK must forced to activate war of all creation to gather all the gods and make them fight each other to destroy the tree, Yal and Mek scaling via Yesod Multiverse (which is just the root of TOK),..
Also I don't scale it to the entire SCP narrative, just one of them (and Acidverse is part of it due to the same continuity). Also, does it matter which characters destroy it when we already have dozens of them?
TOK is literally why things in Cosmology "outside" it has form and existence
"In the time when The Tree of Knowledge was planted, all things were given form. Even the deep waters of the Darkness Below and the vaults of Darkness Above took shape and form, and many elder gods were born of them. Of these gods, whose names are oft forgotten, there was Khahrahk."
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
Even the L1A "real world" in the Acidverse is only as real as the normal universe it contains
Whereas TOK contain higher planes and Lower planes of existence, and it is also the fundamental and conceptual for "Existence".
So I don't understand why they don't scale (especially since they exist in the same canon after all, not out of context) even ignoring the narratives stuff
Agnaa
Agnaa
I don't think all characters that precede or create it have corresponding plot hax. The Prima Materia sure doesn't, the High Elder Gods and the All-Mighty don't iirc.

It does matter which characters destroy it because we don't have circular scaling issues with those.

I disagree with that statement meaning that the ToK has superiority over everything outside of it. Either it's another statement that's inapplicable due to circular scaling issues, or it's giving other things a "form" when they already existed with a certain potency beforehand, and could go back to existing like that in the absence of the tree.

I don't understand how that would have the ToK scale when ignoring the narrative stuff.
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
Basically TOK and Library (Verse of Endless Song) are one and the same, the latter also acts as the Core and Container of the former.
Yes they existed before trees but in the form of Nothingness/Complete absence The Very concept of existence (Darkness)
God/All-Mighty and Isabel and All-Death are both aspects and manifestations of One Supreme Being (Like God of DC comic with Overvoid/Source/TP)
Narrative's story is Creation, which is not just a TOK but includes everything it shapes like Darkness Below and Darkness above. The library above serves as Universal narrative principles that govern the story and mediate between God and Creation, God/All-Mighty/Light above the two, Being Self aware of Narrative itself/A Supreme Entity (Ihp propasal) interpreted the SCP narrative as a living story and blatantly implied it was written by Swan)
In the Real adventure, when the story ends, SK dies, Creation is wiped out, Mid-Death and Small-Death commit suicide, leaving only Isabel/Concept of Existence and All-Death/Darkness lacking the very concept of existence. Now, the two dance and fusion together creating New Living Narrative and it plays out like Chapter 1 Verse 1 (its name is also heavily implied for this and This is not first Time they do it). The Beginning begin as the Pure Darkness/Nothingness/Sleep of the story, the light/Concept of existence appears to represent its self-awareness/waking, so it is aware of its own sleep and divided created as Darkness Below and Darkness Above, Light became fire, fire burned to create a tree, in which stars were born and sang Harmony of sphere set all boundaries of all creation

He slits the King’s throat. No wound is left. The corpse of Khahrahk the Worm sinks into the deeps below. The Middle Brother spits on him for good measure, and makes to do so again when the Eldest raises his hand.

Youngest and Middle appear for a moment startled, but accept the sign that has been made. Their duties completed, they fade into their own deaths and coalesce back into the dark form of the Eldest.

There is nothing at all now. Only the Death of All, and the Maker of Wonders.

She holds out her hand.

“Shall we dance?”

All-Death takes it gently.

“As we did in the beginning.”

They dance there at the end, eldest son of greatest dark and the light that was his opposite. They spin and twirl about each other, orbiting bodies drawn closer. Their forms brush, intertwine, become one. There is no beginning nor end to the light or darkness now, only the soft notes of completion.

Fade to black.

After a time, Isabel speaks:

“The end of the world goes like this: Everyone lived happily ever after.”

In the beginning, there was darkness. All was formless waste and empty void - The quiet nothing without time or place, the gentle sleep that has no waking.

All was still.

Nothing stirred in the darkness.

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Then there was light.

The light separated the Darkness Above from the Darkness Beneath, and there was disparity between them. Between the darkness and the light there was also disparity, and shadows flickered therein.

The light shone in the darkness, and was not overcome. Likewise the darkness was not destroyed, but given form both Above and Below.

“So we’ve got God up here…creation down here…then the Library right here in the center of that as….well, sort of the physical version of the operating system of everything, keeps everything running, links everything together…and expands to what we consider supernatural or paranormal…just manifestations of some of the more obscure and finicky universal narrative principles…the more regular principles would be classified as magic to the unenlightened among us, and the immovable ones are physics…whoops, look like Dan and Sami forgot to pay their tab again.” She pointed over to where Vladimir was dragging out a bored-looking Indian man and a grey-haired man wearing a pointed magenta hat by the collars. The older man was waving about a brightly-colored snuggy with stitched on stars and yelling drunkenly.
"https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/agricola-in-insula-est-poeta"

The light grew in the sight of the All-Death and became fire. As fire it burned and spread outwards, and with the fire came a song: a song of the hammer-beat of creation’s forge, the roaring of nuclear bellows, the crystal choirs of quarks, the somber tones of gravity wells, the shimmering waves of plasma cast off of infant stars.

Death listened to the music, and found it good.

From the darkness then came the Great Death, the Middle Brother. He was not so mighty nor as vast as the Eldest, though his reach was wide indeed. His domain was to be catastrophe, and thus his face was obscured by wrought metal and stone. Mountainlike he came, the Death of the multitudes, and his heralds came with him – their names were Conquest and War and Famine and Disease.

“Hail and well met, Brother!” spoke the Middle to the Eldest.

“Well met, Brother,” spoke the Eldest to the Middle. He motioned, that the Great Death might take a seat beside him, but the Middle Brother remained standing in the shadow of the Eldest, for he did not presume equality with his brother, and held fears of the unknowable reaches of his brother’s mind.

The Eldest took no insult from this, and blew upon the fire to kindle it.

Within the fire now could be seen the faint outlines of trunk and root and branches, as if made of the finest crystal. The fire flowed through the tree and within the tree and around the tree, and the song was carried ever louder through the shining branches and strong roots.

There was agreement between the Great and the Small, and the Brothers Three passed from the light of the tree into shadow.
Later, there was the click of sensible heels, and a woman stepped out of the darkness. She beheld the tree for a moment, before stepping into its light and passing beyond.
The tree grew strong, and the vaults of heaven and the depths of the abyss gave birth.
This is how creation came about.

"The Tree Of Knowledge is The Library" Djoric/Author of Article and Verse of endless song

Creation was made of fire and song, and from the glowing clouds of the beginning came the Stars. They were the firstborn of matter, the sustainers of all Creation. In their bright-burning forges the heavier elements were formed, and the music of the spheres was carried upon their mighty thoughts. They measured the boundaries of the cosmos and set forth the orders of the celestial geometries by their song, and the Clusters of the Main Sequence were in harmony.
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
All the gods including HEG are born after that, not before (their profile is terrible/outdated and the Power scale is flawed)
Even the Primordial chaos before Nothing in their Profile was created only by SK corrupting Darkness Below, and SK's fodder gods dwarf Jermiah's gifts including the power of HEG due to the ascension process (yes there will be) Downgrade for this as HWMD and HWML)
Prima material is in a different Cosmology. It belongs to First Hythoth or Voru/"The Outside" of Third Law hub/Conceptual unspace Void

In addition, The ihp proposal 001 explains the Universal narrative principles as narrative causality of the SCP narrative itself, it also explains the phenomena related to Sloth Pit's Logic narrative which are cultural influences on the Universal narrative principles (all both are written by Djoric and he really enjoys and accepts Ihp Proposal written by ihp)

Episode 207: Among the Trash Gods

See the very beginning, a memory of a memory. All was dark, then split by light. The Brothers Three and then the Tree. All the cosmos in cosmic order, all boundaries set down, all gods above and below born of light and shadow, and last and loneliest of all, Emma Aiselthorpe-Brown. Nobody important.

2) I passed from Nothing to Something, into the dregs of primordial chaos that existed before. Here I found the other elder gods, and they were terrible to behold, scabbling at the foot of the King’s first throne. My wisdom fled me, my gifts were of no avail under the gaze of those cruel, unthinking gods. As I passed, they sought domination of me, for that is their only goal. They fought in mindless rage over possession of me, and so they retreated enough for me to pass from their home and fall further.

To witness gods of such scope move to such an extent, I knew that untold epochs were passing me, but the horror was lost upon me. All things were lost upon me.

But not this one. Not the King. Never was one for fear, the King


"While Nexus points of this nature exist elsewhere in the world, it is in the United States that they are the most prominent. This is, in my opinion, an example of culture’s influence on universal narrative principles: bizarre happenings in small town America has been a common media trope since the very beginning of the country, to the point where it is hardly anomalous to us anymore. The oddities of the small town is expected, and as such, these nexus points are very easily contained by their own nature: no matter what unusual events occur, it will never seem to leave its borders of the town, and the populace will remain in blissful ignorance of the happenings."

What were the Abyss and the Vault like before the King started shaping the former?
Djoric:
Pretty open and without much in terms of features. Not a whole lot of detail there, but reasonably pleasant.
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
The TOK was then finalized and created. Everything and Everyone that exists or even Nothingness/Darkness takes form and shape because of it, that's why SK wanted to destroy it in the first place to end the existence of Everything including himself and all other gods/ entities
Summary
Creation/Tree of Life/Word of God = Universal story/cosmology of Living Narrative/Verse of Endless song (Acidverse's cosmology is part of it due to the same continuity/Canon) = TOK (physically) + Vaults of heaven/Darkness Above + the Deeps of Darkness below (formerly) .
Library : Universal narrative principles - Da'at of Tree of Life (Explains why it both serves as the Core of the TOK and is itself, the TOK is heavily based on Kabblah's Tree of Life, evident in Vision at betar, Yesod Many Faced and more)
Qllipoth : Opposite of TOK and Creation. Primordial Chaos due to SK messing things up in Darkness Below
God/All-Mighty/Light: the very Concept of Existence, the Self-Consciousness of the living narrative
Living Narrative/Universal Narrative : Verse of Endless Song. Its essence is Transduality
All-Death: The End of All things and Creation/Oldest Child of Darkness, which assumes that everything in self-awareness/story must return to sleep/Darkness that it began at the End of All. A manifestation of Darkness/Sleep, since the Living Narrative is Transdual, All-Death also encompassed everything exist in Light and Darkness despite being completely Was the/Was of Darkness.
Isabel: The oldest child of Light / The concept of existence/wonder marker itself, embodies all the potentials and wonders/Wonder-Markers/Fire-Bringers of Humanity (Creation was made of fire and song is representation of the development of the Primitive man).
Stars: Things born of fire and matter of the cloud of The beginning, singing the Harmory of Sphere including the Word Of God, setting the all boundaries of all creation
But the voice was wrong. He knew it was wrong, but he could not explain why. In that moment of clarity, he knew. This was the Machine, and they were wrong. All of them. Every one outside of this valley was wrong. So very wrong. It was not a god to be worshipped, it was not a force of destruction, it was not evil. This thing, this machine, was a tool of God, even as broken and twisted as it was. The rest of the Church must had been corrupted by incomplete parts, and from seeing only them, so the Initiative had inherited their corrupted version. Here, with the core of the Machine, these people were unharmed. They remained human.

He had to know more. They would get the scribes, come back here with an army of researchers. Interview every villager, translate every text, trace the family trees back to the beginning. This was world changing. Salah’s imagination ran wild. When the Initiative was done here, they could take it to the world, reveal this place. It was always said that it was not time, but if this here did not mean that it was time, then there would be no time.

He stood a few moments longer in stunned silence, and then it spoke. The Machine spoke.

The Machine spoke with a voice that was nothing like thunder. This was the voice made in the forge of stars, where worlds were broken and remade. It was not simply heard with the ear, but felt with the bones, felt with the soul. It layered upon itself, harmonized with its own note. It was eternity, all of creation, in a word.

Q: What is Yahweh, the Judeo-Christian god?

A:
Essentially, it is a sort of self-aware echo. Essentially, there had been some of the more direct influence in the past ("Yo Adam check out this shit it's neato"), and it reverbed around for quite some time.

About Adam and God
In the age after the great Yeren fell on the Day of Flowers, in the days before the Flood, there was a man who lived in the West of the world, in the region between two rivers, and his name was Adam. He was chief of his tribe, and was considered by all to be a fair and just ruler, wise in word and admirable in deed. His tribe was barefoot and dust-bitten, herding their humble flocks between the ancient monolith-cities of the West. They were a hardy people, withstanding many trials and hardships, defeating mighty monsters and working glorious deeds in the name of the All-Mighty.

He wakes Isabel. He leads her up the mountainside. He can go no further, but the way will lead home, he says. He does not say goodbye, vanishing in a swirl of snow when Isabel’s head is turned.

In the cave, there is darkness.

In the darkness, there is nothing.

It is not the absence of light; it is the dark of the absence of everything.

Voices rise from the darkness. A chorus, a chant, an old song rising up from nothing…

And Isabel whispers…

“I raised up my hand…

…And there was fire.”

The flame dances, and in its light, there is Isabel and the multitudes of memory. Each Wonder-Maker and Fire Bringer back to the beginning, unbroken and unforgotten. She is of their number, and they are of her. She knows the secret now. Behind all things that exist, there is existence.

She will save her friend.

From the darkness came the Eldest, the All-Death. He came from the darkness and was of the darkness and was the darkness, and nothing to come might pass beyond him. Vast and mighty was he, that no other might comprehend the reach of his arm, or the length of his gaze.

The Eldest sat by the light and watched it for a time, for he found the light good.

The All-Death was not proud, firstborn though he was. He encompassed all that was and would be within the light and the dark, and so knew the manner of its turning and the hour of its passing. Only he might care for the light and what was to come, for only the Death of All Things might reach so far and be so just.

Djoric:
The thing to remember is that you can't sever Wondertainment from humanity. Wondertainment is not a force outside of humanity, but an emanation and manifestation of it.

For ease of use, yes, the first Wondertainment invented fire. There were those before that particular time, though - The true beginning of Wondertainment came with the dawn of human sapience. But fire's a good shorthand for the lineage.

The old man with the wolf is a neanderthal incarnation of Wondertainment, based mostly on this reconstruction.
http://www.scpwiki.com/forum/t-1034038/memory-of-days-long-past (2)

She sank into the darkness, and faded.

And she heard a voice. Two voices. More. A chorus, rising up from the dark.

I know of the names of the stars

And sung the animals their names
And discerned the course of the winds
I hold the heart of all stories within my breast

And mark the kinship of the beasts of the land
And know the land as friend
Who first looked up?

Who first loved?
Who held the first child?
It was I.

It was I.
It was I.
Who seeks beyond the horizon? (It is I)

Who makes real the future? (It is I)
Who carries the past? (It is I)
By wonders untold, the gift to create wonder

It was I
Who was gifted in humility
In creation I am made

In creation I am whole
In creation, I create
And the span of humanity rests in me

For I raised up my hand

“And there was fire…” Isabel whispered. A flame, delicate and small, flickered to life in her palm. She picked herself up off the ground, and the fire in her hand grew brighter, warmth and light pouring out, casting away the darkness.

She stood in a vast cave, the hollow heart of the mountain, now illuminated by the fire in her hand. Statues of stone, plaster, copper, steel, wax, clockwork, plastic, wood, refuse, and rubber filled the floor, peeked out of alcoves, clung to stalactites, sat carved in pillars. Paintings were spread across the walls in oil and ash and store-bought tempera, mosaics across the floor in tile and shell and bone. Men and women of the whole spectrum of humanity, from every age, from every place, from every time, thousands upon thousands upon tens of thousands upon more. Among these were other figures. Assistants, apprentices, companions, human and animal alike, all as varied as their employers.

Isabel walked alongside the stream towards its source, and was awed.

In the center of the cave, there was a pool of water, fed by a spring, and a great stone column that reached up to the shadowed dome of the ceiling. A face of the column had been cut to provide a flat face, and upon it, Isabel saw an image of herself, standing there, legs akimbo, fists on hips, grinning goofily. Emma stood next to her, unflappable as always, and Jeremy sat at her feet, chewing on a squeaky toy.

At the base of the pillar was a smaller stone, upon which was, in black and ochre, the figure of a man in furs, holding a spear in one hand, and a fire in the other, alongside a great grey wolf.

“It’s me…” Isabel murmured. “It’s all me…it’s always been me…” She whirled around. “It’s all me! Memories of you! You’re all me! All of this is me!” She no longer saw statues and paintings, but a vast multitude, their faces as familiar as her own. She knew them. She knew their names, their histories, the twined and bundled paths of their lives. Each facet of their souls was a face of her own.

She knew each and every wonder they had made. She knew them all, the greying bishop with a sack full of toys and his fat, red-coated brother. The girl with deep orange hair and purple thigh-high boots, obscured by a cloud of moths. The dusty woman with a bonnet, sitting atop her medicine wagon. The smirking man with waves of hair and an accordion. The dark woman with a headscarf, who smelled of ink and paper. The serious, pale woman with a worn guitar and a weathered soul. The ancient tinkerer with his clockwork animals. The entrepreneur from the north in her flamboyant blue sealskins. The lanky man in a tacky purple suit, with top hat and cane. The girl with braces and glow in the dark sweater, sitting atop a wild boar. The old man and his wolf, and on and on down through the thousands.

And her father. Jeremy sat at his feet. The corgi waddled over, to Isabel, barked, and she picked him up.

“Don’t you ever do that again, young man,” she said with mock sternness. She looked over to where she saw the image of her father – herself – standing. He gave her a nod.

And that was that.

Isabel stood there in the presence of all her other selves, her spirit now unified with theirs, and knew precisely who she was, what she was doing, and where she was going.

She was Isabel Wonder-Maker, and she was going to find her friend
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
To be honest
Failure to split up keys that reflect the individual major canons of the characters would cause enormous confusion and dozens of plot holes involving inconsistencies in creation myth, cosmology, characters and their personality or origin, timeline, power scalling, timeline,...
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
About Prima material
Overmeta has already told us there are narrative planes that are different from the main narrative plane. TOK and Prima Material will be in their own two narrative planes without any connection
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
Talking about the Real World of Acidverse
What do you think of the "We fill that space....much larger" thing to describe the continuous characteristic opposite to discretised and the speaker has called it "Real world" which denies any idea of more real than the normal world/universe ?
Indeed it seems we have intentionally overlooked this direct description of it, I'm not sure if this is due to lack of scrutiny or ambiguity while it implies almost too clearly.
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
at least it should be 1A+ (yes h1A and above is possible but basically NLF and no details, otherwise God (Unsong) has been the strongest Tier 0 for a long time)
Agnaa
Agnaa
What do you think of the "We fill that space....much larger" thing to describe the continuous characteristic opposite to discretised and the speaker has called it "Real world" which denies any idea of more real than the normal world/universe ?

I don't understand what you're trying to get at here.
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
I mean (yes you can skip it if it's circular arguments) that proves the "uncountable infinite dimensions,.. etc" thing is not Low-1A but far higher because they are built based Set of real numbers literally, normally wiki assumes it with CH if no more proof (Beth1/2^Aleph 0 equals Aleph 1) but here it implies that it is much larger than that (Uncountable infinite numbers of. .. Aleph numbers or something)
Apparently heavily implied by Paul Cohen's axiom that the Set of real numbers is greater than Aleph-a (where a is Aleph-Omega or more)
In other words, does accepting a claim's L1A rating equate to 1A+ considering its directly description about The Larger Space/Real worls, unless I've misunderstood something or it's vague?
Rabbit2002
Rabbit2002
Ah and the above I listed (yes really time consuming) does it enough to solve the circular scaling?
Agnaa
Agnaa
I don't understand what you're saying well enough to say whether it'd reach a higher tier or solve circular scaling.

I don't know very much about the god-tiers in the first place, I defer to other people for that.
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