In that case shouldn't the pages be reformulated to be more clear then? Since the FAQ says that existing outside of time and/or space would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality, and then gives the example that Dormammu is vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature, and that's wrong since he himself isn't timeless but just the Dark Dimension, in fact what Doctor Strange did was introduce time into the Dark Dimension to imprison Dormammu. Then, according to its page, BDE is a state of being of characters who exist outside, and are independent of, space and time, and the Watcher qualifies for it based on that definition since he exists outside of the planes of time and space of the Multiverse, which already contains dimensions outside of time and/or space, or Acausality according to the FAQ
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VS Battles Wiki Forum
RoTt35
Qawsedf234
* Dormammu is used as an example of a character who lacks temporal qualities but doesn't have a justification for time superiority or resistances. He just lacks those qualities
* Watcher in a similar case exists physically outside the multiverse. But the only resistance he would have is being resistant to Ultron's reality punches rather than BDE or anything like that.
At least that's my view of it.
* Watcher in a similar case exists physically outside the multiverse. But the only resistance he would have is being resistant to Ultron's reality punches rather than BDE or anything like that.
At least that's my view of it.
RoTt35
Yes I understand your point, but the issue is that the FAQ says that existing outside of time and/or space would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality, and Dormammu and the Watcher qualify for that, one more than the other, and the same problem occurs in the BDE page which is just described as a state of existence outside of space-time and being independent of it
Qawsedf234
Dormammu doesn't have anything that qualifies for Acasual.
I vaguely get the Watcher being Acasual or BDE Type 1, but even he still doesnt have enough to get something like Acasual Type 4.
I vaguely get the Watcher being Acasual or BDE Type 1, but even he still doesnt have enough to get something like Acasual Type 4.
RoTt35
Being older than time and exist outside of time itself isn't enough to qualify for Acausality? Plus he also remained aware of Doctor Strange's time loop
Well, Type 1 BDE also includes Type 1 Acausality, so I guess that's fine. Btw, Infinity Ultron physically destroying space-time and that place outside the planes of space and time could qualify as NPI?
Well, Type 1 BDE also includes Type 1 Acausality, so I guess that's fine. Btw, Infinity Ultron physically destroying space-time and that place outside the planes of space and time could qualify as NPI?
Qawsedf234
Dormammu isn't older than time, since time existed before the universe was made by the Celestials. Though being aware of the time loop my count for something.
Idk about the second. I'd have to think on it.
Idk about the second. I'd have to think on it.
RoTt35
Dormammu is stated by Ancient One to be older than time, and I don't know what relation he has with the main universe and the Celestials but the Dark Dimension is also stated to be primordial. Btw, I found that Dormammu can also affect planes of existence, could that grant anything?
Sorry for asking so many questions
And speaking of the Celestials, would them existing before the six Singularities, which represent aspects of existence (Space, Reality, Power, Soul, Mind and Time), grant them something?
Qawsedf234
I'll have to answer these when I get home from work, but for the most part since time has seemingly always existed a lot of the potential resistances are just kneecapped.
Qawsedf234
Planes in context is just a phrase for universe from what I can see.
Both origins are pre-Celestials. But we also know that the Multiverse didn't exist until the universe was made going by Spider-Man
Eternal Inflation starts at the Big Bang and goes from there, meaning the Multiverse doesn't begin until the Big Bang happens and time existed before the Big Bang in the MCU. So overall I'm not seeing solid evidence that Dormammu predating time. The most I can see for Dormammu is an incredibly terrible version of Type 4 Acasual since he's aware of a timeloop but unable to prevent it in any capacity. He's also effected by the split timeline of the multiverse within the MCU.
Planes in context is just a phrase for universe from what I can see.
The Infinity Stones already existed before the universe, the Celestials just forged them into stones
I guess it would, as a group, give the Celestials some form of reality manipulation.
Thinking on it, BDE Type 1 also doesn't fit them. It's probably just a better example of Type 2 or 4 Acasual for not being changed by the Retcon Punches.
RoTt35
What was said in Spider-Man FFH shouldn't be used to explain the cosmology, Mysterio knows nothing about the Multiverse and was only deceiving Peter to manipulate him, especially since at that time just the existence of the Sacred Timeline was known. And the Big Bang as far as we know only created the main universe where Earth is located, we don't know if it was responsible for all or even just one timeline along with its infinite universes, dimensions and realities. I mean, Arishem is just 3-A for causing the Big Bang and creating the universe.
Yes, but Arishem and the Celestials are even older than the Infinity Stones or the six Singularities as stated in the opening of Eternals:
Yes, but Arishem and the Celestials are even older than the Infinity Stones or the six Singularities as stated in the opening of Eternals:
Qawsedf234
That would be true, if it was Mysterio saying that to Peter. When told about the multiverse (which is how it works when it was legitimately established), Peter's idea of Eternal Inflation still fits it.
Eternal Inflation is about the Big Bang process, but it then stems into cosmic inflation as a whole. Creating a universe can lead to an infinite amount of universes, but it's ultimately only a universal feat. The reason Arishem is 3-A for example is because the Big Bang he made had nothing to do with time and making the Big Bang doesn't cause the multiverse to form until choices are made.
Yes, but that doesn't give them anything other than forging the singularities into stones.
RoTt35
I didn't remember the scene well, still, Peter bases that statement on Mysterio's lie. Also, imo it's extremely iffy to base a major section of the cosmology on a minor statement by Spider-Man in response to a lie that isn't even supported by reliable sources (Sorcerers Supreme, the Watcher, He Who Remains, Kang, etc), guidebooks or WoG. Even Doctor Strange questions Peter's little knowledge of the Multiverse when he tells him that we know frighteningly little about it. Btw, on what basis do you say that time existed before the Big Bang? In the singularities/Infinity Stones?
So the Celestials existing before Space, Reality, Power, Soul, Mind and Time wouldn't give them anything?
So the Celestials existing before Space, Reality, Power, Soul, Mind and Time wouldn't give them anything?
Qawsedf234
Alright I'm back.
BDE does not include Type 1 Acasual. It just usually includes Type 1 Acasual
Watcher and Ultron can go into the Watcher's realm, which sees the multiverse. But that wouldn't give them Acausal ratings.
This is the entire exchange
Like, nothing he said would lead to Spider-Man randomly talking about Eternal Inflation.
So important question here, do a single one of these sources say that the multiverse (with infinite universes and secondary dimensions) existed since the start of time.
How does something happen before something else? Because you have a frame of reference for time. It's why the the Big Bang statement was always Tier 3 rather than Tier 2.
No. Existing before something means nothing without showing you're actually superior to that concept
RoTt35
"As a result of being outside of regular time", The Watcher's realm exists outside of the planes of space and time of the Multiverse, which already has dimensions outside of regular time or/and space within it, so may I ask why the Watcher can't qualify for Acausality? There's also the fact that the Watcher has seen everything that has ever happened, ever will happen, ever could happen and is happening at the totality of the Multiverse across all time and space, and yet he still can't comprehend what Ultron is or what he could do
We don't know if there is more than one Earth (main universe) within the same timeline
I don't think so, all we know is that at the beginning there were countless timelines and that variants of Kang/He Who Remains began to discover other multiverses (timelines), thus starting the Multiversal War where He Who Remains would win and isolate the Sacred Timeline, hiding from the other timelines and disconnecting it from the Multiverse, then happened the events of Loki and the death of He Who Remains causing the Sacred Timeline to be freed and branching out to connect with the Multiverse
Doesn't that specifically talk about superiority and tiering? I only ask for abilities and resistances, for example the Celestials existed before the singularity of the Mind, so could they have resistance to Mind Manipulation or lack a conventional one? Since each singularity control a primordial aspect of the universe and an essential aspect of existence, those being "Space, Reality, Power, Soul, Mind and Time"
Qawsedf234
Because the Watcher has no examples of being Acasual. The most I would say he has is some solid resistances rather than lacking temporal characteristics.
Yeah that's still not being Acasual, that's just being powerful
I have no idea what this even means. What Spider-Man is saying is that origins of the multiverse are related to the Big Bang and cosmic inflation. He's not saying they occupy the same physical space. The point was that the multiverse started after the Big Bang and not before.
No, it's about any ability or rating. Existing before something isn't evidence that you're superior to that concept. It's why something can be older than time but still be effected by Time Manipulation.
I mean, it would give them NPI and physics manipulation for hammering concepts into some rocks but nothing more.
RoTt35
Existing outside of regular time and space, and the Watcher exists beyond that, is used as an example of Acasuality in a few pages, are these pages wrong then?
So a character who knows absolutely everything about the entire Multiverse (past, present, future, possibilities) can't comprehend and is shocked by another one doesn't mean anything? Why would The Watcher be worried and not know what Ultron can do if he already knows the entire future?
Wouldn't that be contradicted by the fact that there are Celestials and Infinity Stones on each timeline? According to what you say, the Big Bang created the entire Multiverse, but each timeline has their own Celestials and Infinity Stones, which implies that there was a Big Bang in each of those timelines
Wouldn't that be a feat of the ability rather than an anti-feat for the character? To give an example, a character with Soul Manipulation can affect another one who doesn't have a soul, that doesn't mean that the latter will magically acquire a soul but that the hax can work on soulless beings
Qawsedf234
BDE says that they usually get Type 1, not always. Watcher doesn't have any examples of being Acasual. The most I see is his resistance to space-time manipulation for the retcon punches.
No.
Also no. Timelines are made based on different choices and events. There was always just one starting timeline that spiraled into infinity as soon as free choice was a thing.
Existing before something isn't a feat. Considering Ultron destroyed his Celestials they aren't immune or above the infinity stones.
By nature of the ability, if you have Soul Manipulation and manipulate someone, they have a soul or the equalivent of one. If the lack a soul they're doing something else because they lack that aspect for their character.
RoTt35
You didn't address the last part, why would the Watcher, who already knows the entire future beforehand, have that reaction towards Ultron?
The branched timelines are spatio-temporally separated, temporally infinite and bigger than the Sacred Timeline itself which expanded indefinitely forward into the future, back into the past, sideways, left and right, plus Ultron stated that each one is different. And above all, those branched timelines originated from the Sacred Timeline, before that and the Multiversal War there were already countless unique timelines
They can be unaffected by the hax of the Infinity Stones and still be AP stomped by a 2-A Ultron
Qawsedf234
Existing before something just isn't a feat Rot.
Being really strong just isn't a feat and being shocked by an existence that powerful also isn't a feat.
That still doesn't dispute my point. The began when the Buv Bang was a thing and branched off from there. Even with Loki the scene with the multiverse being created showed thing branching from an original singular timeline
There's no indication any Celestial is above the stones. The fact they made the stones in the first placed and used them as weapons already indicate that they're inferior to them.
Existing before something just isn't a feat Rot.
RoTt35
You're missing my point, The Watcher emphasized about him knowing everything that has ever happened, ever will happen and ever could happen, yet he doesn't know or understand anything about Ultron. Ultron being super powerful means nothing if the Watcher already knew that would happen and that he and the Guardians would end up winning, however that wasn't the case and was shocked at his existence
However at the beginning there were any branches, but countless unique timelines that were stacked, plus the Sacred Timeline also expanded indefinitely back into the past, thus before the Big Bang. And the Multiverse already existed before, during and after the events of Loki, the Sacred Timeline had only been isolated and hidden from the other timelines by He Who Remains, disconnecting it from the Multiverse