VS Battles Wiki Forum

Such as?

Well, I'll start with the big one: I dont think Gwyn should be tier 4 in his Lord of Cinders key. By all accounts the Gwyn fought in-game is literally a dying ember of his prime power. Imo he shouldnt scale to the 4-C stuff, which brings me to my other issue with gwyn.

I also have some issues with the tier 4 stuff in general, specifically how, while they do maintain the sun's existence, they don't completely reignite it, it is both described and depicted as a slow burn that uses their souls as fuel, which would imply a much lower level of power over a long period of time. This would more likely be high 6-A, the energy the sun gives off, over the timeframe that they spend fueling it, in gwyn's case it would make him 5-A in his prime and high 6-A as the lord of cinder.

I agree with the notion that their soul alone does not generate or maintain the existence of light/time/the sun, and rather they just keep it functioning normally. I just don't really have a good suggestion for how to handle that- we don't know the timeframe of any given Lord of Cinder's rule. It could be tens of thousands of years, it could be a decade.

That said, I don't really agree with his form (as we fight him, at least) being so massively below his prime. It is true that we fight the husk that was once the proud figure of Gwyn, Lord of Sunlight, but he is still fueling the First Flame at that time. It has wracked his body but he continues. I think it's completely fair to scale him, albeit perhaps downscale him from the other Lord Souls at that point.

Going by the timeframe given by Frampt it would have been a bare minimum of 1000 years, so maybe just use that as a lowball and then have a 'possibly much higher'?

That's the thing though, if we go by the 'gradually fueling the sun' way of scaling, even as a husk he would be bare minimum high 6-A, as being able to generate the same amount of energy as the sun gives off every second for 1000 years would put him at 5-A

Basically it would be that at his prime he is 5-A and then from the moment he linked the flam up to the moment the chosen undead killed him he was steadily growing weaker as the flame gradually burned his soul as fuel. Still high 6-A as he is able to barely maintain the sun even as the lord of cinder, but not 5-A

eh. When the bare minimum is, potentially, so far below, I don't really know.

I still dislike making him puny bitch level when he does fight the Chosen Undead. Us putting him at High 6-A requires us to assume he's more or less out of juice. We know that eventuality was coming up, but we have no idea how long it would take to reach that point as of the end of DS1- since there's no definitive timeframe, it could be years, decades, centuries, millennia, etc. So arbitrarily putting his gas tank to empty strikes me as wrong. Under your hypothetical scaling for this, I would much rather slap him at "Unknown, possibly 5-A" or something similar.

Wasnt the entire point of Dark Souls 1 that gwyn was basically completely burnt out? That the CU needed to replace him otherwise there would be nothing to fuel the sun?

Also, just to show my math:

Energy given off by the sun every second = 3.8 x 10^26 joules

There are 3.156e+10 seconds in 1000 years (The current known timeframe for Gwyn fueling the sun)

3.8 x 10^26 * 3.156e+10 = 1.19928e+37 Joules, 5-A

Aye, it is. However, we don't know what that's relative to. So, for example, if his reign were a mere thousand years (I don't find that one to be the most likely, but it is a decent enough baseline), even a decade or two could be seen as "completely burnt out". Even a decade would give 1.199e35 Joules, which is still 5-A.

To be High 6-A, Gwyn would need to have only a handful of minutes to spare by the time the Chosen Undead gets to him, which I find laughably farfetched. Based on in-game lore, we can see that Undead have been working on this for some time, implying the Age of Fire has been dying for some time. So I think just slapping him at (again, using your figures) 5-A would be better than assuming we get there with the tiniest shred of time to spare.

Hmm, i see your point, as even just a year left would put him at slightly above baseline 5-A...

Also his reign itself wasnt just 1000 years, 1000 years is meant to be the measurement of time from when he kindled th first flame

"Heavens! You have done it! You have retrieved the Lordvessel! After a thousand years! It is you, it is really you! Hraaaoogggh! ... Forgive me. I really should calm down. Now, let us take that vessel on a journey. I assume you are ready. Now, be still! "

Aye, but in any case you get my point. He should downscale, but given the vagueness of timescale, that should be all.

If you intend to put this to a CRT, it'll be a shitshow, but I do support the premise.

Ye, i'll let you know when the CRT goes up

Oh also, was the creation of th painted world of ariamis ever calced? Or could it be calced?

Also also, just as a heada up I have some bloodborne upgrades and downgrades planned for after this as well

Figured you might want in on this. Dont worry about the bloodborne stuff, im going to be handling that in my mass verse revision, just figured youd be able to explain the DS stuff better than me

Quick thing i noticed going through some DS3 profiles, shouldnt Seigward only be 4-C with Storm Ruler, if even 4-C at all? Its kinda explicit that Storm Ruler is needed to fight Yhorm and is explicitly canonically a weapon that giants are weak to

Ehh. Probably not. Storm Ruler itself is the weakness of Yhorm but there's no reason for Siegward to be weaker than all other Ashen Ones.

Is he an ashen one though? I thought he was just an undead?