VS Battles Wiki Forum

There's a few instances of Cybermen (elite forces, mostly) and Sontarans damaging Pre-Time War armour, but I'm planning a huge downgrade on Dalekanium durability. Another was with Torchwood weapons, but they were designed to pierce their forcefields and don't even remotely scale to Cybermen.

I know, but Cyber statistics (among others) would certainly change if the Time Lords get downgraded. It's worth noting that a couple of grenades could kill them during Invasion, and far more powerful Cybus industries Cybermen (enough for the N-Space Cyberrace to willingly accept their models) were blown apart by rocket launchers.

Seems ok. It's a little problematic with some incarnations having way more showings than others (meaning I'll probably have to look through the EU), but I think it'll allow us to tackle inconsistency a little better. Tbh, I think we should only stick to the profiles with decent showings. 6, in particular, has some of the best prep and absorbed the Lux Aeterna.

Makes perfect sense to me, especially with the events of The Timeless Child in mind. I currently have all of the War Master's audio stories, so it's as good a time as any to do this.

For The Doctor's TARDIS, I'm thinking Incarnations 1-3, 4 (those two could probably just be the same, but the 4th's TARDIS had many differences to theirs), 5-8, and 9-14. Eccleston's Doctor didn't even have a shield generator until the Kinetic Extrapolator, so Idk what to do there.

Cybermen

Click to expand...

TBH we should split them too; we regularly see different origins for them and 12 outright states that they are convergent evolution manifest, emerging on Earth, Mondas, Telos, Planet 14 and Marinus completely independent of each other.

We can probably split them into Mondas, Telos (I know a David Banks novel splits them even further but that's non canon iirc), Cybus/Cyber Legions and Cyberiad

Ashad and Kroton could get unique profiles since they are unique individuals and the Cyber Warriors need more feats imo. I also think we should stick closer to the "higher" material like the Titans Comics and Big Finish just for safety's sake.

The Doctor

Click to expand...

Makes sense, the spinoff stuff certainly adds to each of the incarnations but some of them just don't have the feats (I'm fairly confident 4, 9, 10 and 12 could get Wall Level)

The Master

Click to expand...

Ooh nice; I've heard Jacobi's Master is rather intense so that could be an interesting read (I believe there's a crossover with the 10th Doctor announced). I know one of his episodes involves rewriting Genesis of the Daleks so that could be neat to see. He also appears in the U.N.I.T Series alongside the Cybermen and he's just delightful.

TARDIS

Click to expand...

Makes sense, I'm not sure how spinoff media changes it but it could be a solid basis

Way ahead of you. I'm also doing the Flood and the CyberNomads (the remnants of Telos, who have Multi-Continent level feats with tech).

That's cool. I've listened to that story, and The Master's Dalek Empire is huge. I won't spoil any details unless you're ok with some small spoilers.

I'll show you the TARDIS changes soon.

I'm thinking of downgrading the higher-dimensions stuff based on portrayal and massive inconsistencies.

I was actually thinking more different civilization profiles entirely depending on the variants (or at the very least pages for each of the Cyber Units with a larger one based on the race as a whole)

4 seemed fairly consistent in terms of strength tbh, 10 is definitely where it gets fuzzy. I know some showings could be discounted as Regeneration shenanigans but others not so much (maybe just general pacifism?) In cases like that we should probably go with the average.

Small Spoilers is mostly fine (I'll check it out anyway)

And dang that's big, what are they getting dropped to?

The thing is all of them combine at some point, even in The Timeless Child timeline. It becomes a little hard to distinguish certain boundaries between the earlier Cyber-Wars and Tiberian Cyber-Wars.

In terms of feats, yes, but he's often overpowered by humans. Also, he gets killed by a Street level fall.

We don't actually hear about the feats as they happen, but they've lasted for thousands of years, laid waste to most of the universe (even obliterating whole galaxies) and created a fortress the size of star systems out of whole planets.

Universe level+, possibly Multiverse level for the Chronovores/Eternals, Multiverse level for the Eye of Harmony, and Low Complex Multiverse level beings that scale to the Time Vortex (the Six-Fold God, the Quantum Archangel, the Time Lords, etc).

Cybermen

Click to expand...

True; that's why I suggest splitting them by physical model

• Mondas are all mostly made from Modasian technology and arise from similar situations
• I believe Attack of the Cybermen references Earthshock and Nemesis is based on a similar plan involving Mondas (to the point I headcanon them as being linked events)
• Cyberiad Cybermen are mostly consistent in designs, abilities and voice
• Cybusmen are the odd ones out since they're wiped out, then interbreed with the main universe's Cyber-Races and then become the Cyberiad

The Flood seem mostly separate from everyone so they get their own profile I guess

Inconsistency

Click to expand...

Oh, very true. We could put that down as PIS but if the characters have no anti-feats we could just write it off that way

Master-Dalek Race

Click to expand...

Huh that's pretty neat

Dimensional Downgrades

Click to expand...

Oh dang that's rough

That makes sense. You probably know all of these, but I'll just list down the origins from the TV stories, and a couple titbits from the EU.

- The Cybermen in The Wheel in Space and Tomb of the Cybermen are Telosian. The Cybermen between Four Doctors and Silver Nemesis took over Telos, but they migrated from Mondas. Since we're lead to believe The Wheel in Space Cybermen are originally Mondasian, it's likely they're just the same. In Cyber-Crisis, they even have a homeworld called New Mondas.

- The Invasion and Revenge of the Cyberman Cybermen are from Planet 14. They're completely extinct, so it doesn't matter.

- Marinus is a separate evolution. They call it Planet 14 in Worldshapers and change it to Mondas, but The Doctor mentions Mondas, Planet 14 and Marinus separately later (also proving that the comics are canon). The Worldshapers was the origin of the Marinus statement and hasn't been brought up outside of those two stories, so Mondas, Marinus and Planet 14 aren't the same anymore.

- The Pete's World design in N-Space is either depicted as a cross-pollination, or just a coincidence. I think it's cross-pollination because it's stated that the Trenzalore Cybermen came before the Tiberian ones. Either way, they're technically Mondasians.

- The Flood Cybermen are future Mondasians.

I also believe Neil Gaiman mentioned he believed the remnants of the CyberFprce in Victorian London is what merged with the main Cybermen to becomes the Legions

Might have to look into that, but it seems that other writers have paved over some of those original intentions.

I remembered something that supports FTL, as inconsistent as it is.

In a few of the Audios, the Time Lord Shock Troopers use pendants to keep themselves 10 nanoseconds ahead of the Daleks. To a human, there'd be effectively no time difference, but they mention that it's actually quite useful. It was even a children's game in Susan's time.

Yeh that definitely feels a bit inconsistent (especially since they seem to have needed tech)

What I meant is that it actually supports it.

The tech keeps them 10 nanoseconds ahead in space-time.

To a human, that'd be no time at all, so they'd need to have reflexes and processing speed millions of times greater than a human for that to actually give them a reasonable advantage.

I found some stuff that actually works really well.

The CyberNomads themselves are apparently from Planet 14, having originated from Mondas. They departed Planet 14 and spread throughout the cosmos, while the other Planet 14 faction went back to Telos and combined with them.

Basically

• All Cybermen originated from Mondas. This is The Tenth Planet.
• The Cybermen fled to Telos after the destruction of Mondas. This is The Moonbase, while The Wheel In Space Cybermen are the same ones at a later point.
• An off-shoot left Telos for Planet 14. This is Invasion.
• A faction of Planet 14 Cybermen depart into space, while some of the others go back to Telos and fuse with the ones left over there after the Cyber Wars devastated the planet. This is Revenge of the Cybermen, while the Telosian 'CyberNeomorphs' would go onto appear in Earthshock. The ones from Silver Nemesis are just those ones from a little further into the future.
• The Daleks blew up New Mondas some time after Silver Nemesis, and after that they started to resemble the Nightmare In Silver Cybermen before the Cybus Industries Cybermen merged with them.

So I'm thinking Cyber Mondasians (MK I), Cyber Telosians (MK II/III), CyberNomads (MK IV), CyberNeomorphs (MK V), Cybus Industries, Tiberian CyberWars, The Flood and Cyberium.

It splits the profiles nicely because the ones I'm listing off only have superficial differences, with the exception of the pre-Cybus Industries Cybermen that began to resemble Cybermen from the Tiberian Cyber-Wars.

I might also include Real Time and Supremacy of the Cybermen profiles, but they technically never existed.

Yeah this works pretty nicely
Unique individuals like Ashad could get their own profiles (especially since he has decent hax)

Seems good.

Turns out Sontarans can rip apart Raston Warriors, who've withstood Cybermen blasters, so they're like the only ones who physically stay at 9-A.

I'll have to look into more Sontaran/Cybermen stuff when I've finished the Dalek sandbox, because I'm fairly sure it doesn't line up.

Also semi related but
Would Rassilon have separate profiles for his incarnations or would it just be one profile?

I think just one would be fine. Having read all the Gallifrey audios, there's a ton of physical and mental differences between incarnations and pseudo-incarnations, but not enough media to realise different profiles.

Anyway, here's kind of what I'm planning.

Part 1 is for higher species and beings, Part 2 is for lower species, and maybe a part 3 for miscellaneous things that might not be included.

Ah sounds good, If you want I could help with Part 2 (I have plans for the Daleks)

Daleks are part 1. They're technically considered higher species alongside the Time Lords.

May I ask the plans, because I've been working on this.

Ah yes the Gelth did call them "higher forms"
My plan was more limited to the individual Dalek units, I'm not big on each of them being listed as Tier 7 and I think we should be marking them as variable since they canonically hold back the power of their blasts to cause the most pain (rather then simple atomization). Admittedly that's mostly it tho

That's why I put 'at maximum'.

Unfortunately, all of their blasts vary against the life forms they fight. Against unshielded Daleks, for example, they can create fireballs with the heat of a hydrogen bomb.

At the absolute maximum amount of firepower they can possibly produce (as in channelling any and all power to their gunstick, not just using the gunsticks at the maximum Large Town level setting) they can fire a few blasts that cause their casings to fall right apart.