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Eh, it’s still not a canon event that can happen, if it’s just via multiplayer mode, then I wouldn’t give it to him
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Oh yeah we’re doing this; Mario Mario vs Sonic the Hedgehog [0-1-0]
- Thread starter ARandomDude127
- Start date
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The multiplayer is just to make it so Chaotix vs Team Sonic can happen, Team Rose and Dark both fight Chaotix in the story and they both resist it, it’s logical that Team Sonic can resist it too.
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Ok, if it’s just scaling abilities from other characters, then I guess it works
Mario still has other options anyway, so I wouldn’t say it’s a stomp now
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OP still chose to restrict it, so transmutation is a valid win con.
We already went over this. Read the rest of this thread. The whole reason speed is unequalized is because it's accepted here that Sonic could do this.
Galactidot
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This is correct!
Galactidot
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TTYD ending. He just now has an even better way to use it.
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Don’t look at me bro ts is NOT my fault
But apparently he CAN,
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Tbf, that’s paper Mario and not actual Mario, but they should have similar tactics and it does show that bond empowerment can apply mid-combat, so… eh
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NOW it’s updated accordingly. Now votes from here on out shall be counted.
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Sonic's AD requires some form of conflict in order to kick in
this doesn't happen when Mario literally stonewalls his perception speed to this extent and just uses his hax to 1 shot
he's not brawling Mario here, Mario is just gonna hax him to death instantly
Galactidot
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It should be more than sufficient, especially when you remember that they are literally the same guy personality wise. The game (Paper Jam) even jokes about this!
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I think a better bit of evidence would be the Galaxy statements and how (I think) in other M&L games, Mario still experiences the boost from BP even while separated from Luigi, but TTYD stuff still works to show how Mario is known to use Bonds to his advantage
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Is either side even gonna auto-resort to the very little and specific hax they have that can even kill/incapacitate the other?
Feel like with their interpretations they’d probably start out with trying to brawl physically, or Mario would at least use some of his more tamer Power Ups. So there’s still SOME time for Sonic’s crazy AD to kick in, given the fact that Mario’s also weaker.
AyOgUyS
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If Sonic's AD is so inconsistent that sometimes he's completely unable to clear finite gaps and other times he can jump several infinities, why are we considering it as a solid win con at all? Is there even a single fight in canon where Sonic starts out as being overwhelmed and then gets a gazillion times stronger and wins? Against Infinite his AD didn't kick in. Against the Time Eater his AD didn't kick in. Against the Titans his AD didn't kick in. Against those random crab Badniks that knocked him down in IDW his AD didn't kick in. I get that he jumped several infinities in Generations when in the presence of his Modern self? But couldn't that literally just be a thing that only happened specifically because there were two Sonics? Like seriously that kinda AD never ever happens again except for maybe Forces but the Classic Sonic from there IS the one from Generations so he could've retained his Modern Era scaling. Is there literally even a SINGLE instance where: an opponent severely overwhelms Sonic at first, but then he magically grows a gazillion times stronger, and wins?
Galactidot
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Yeah like this logic is exactly why I don't really care about people saying Mario isn't acting in character
When has Sonic ever done so in a matchup
, so I just don't really care
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I already explained this like three separate times. And yes, the most iconic instance is Sonic Battle where the growth is explicitly mentioned by Rouge and Sonic when Sonic jumped from 4-C or smth to his 3-C rating instantly just from standing in front of Emerl because he had something to fight for. I feel like people just ignored my comments atp.
AyOgUyS
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Is that a one off instance or something that consistently happens in fights? It seems to me that in the vast majority of times Sonic is being overwhelmed, his AD doesn't kick in.
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It happens several times in Battle alone, the game where it's mentioned explicitly. Let alone other games, yes. Again, I addressed basically all the concerns regarding the inconsistency in my previous comments.
AyOgUyS
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How frequently and what were the situations each time?
so its when he has "something to fight for". what does the wiki consider as qualifying for that?
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In Battle it was first mentioned when Sonic was fighting Rouge and losing and then started having more trouble and stated he suddenly grew a lot stronger (this is already linked on his profile btw), then later in the game he's so much stronger than his friends he tells Emerl to beat every single one of them before fighting him, and then when he does fight Sonic after beating all of them he said he was holding back because Emerl's still not good enough yet. He then fights Shadow and Sonic comes by and says he's ready so Shadow and Sonic 2v1 Emerl and Emerl wins. Then Sonic teaches him a few more moves and then Emerl goes on to get a huge amp (jumped from 4-C or whatever up to 3-C) and Shadow says Sonic is the only one who should fight him because he's the only one he thinks could beat him or whatever. Sonic goes to Emerl and he's grown strong enough to fight him immediately.
Classic Sonic in Generations is already known, but Forces demonstrates the growth several times. Classic Sonic might've been on Generations Modern Sonic's level. But not post Generations Sonic. He proceeded to one-shot Chaos 0 the moment he entered the world because Tails was in danger. Something Sonic's friends (Silver and Knuckles, or hell, even Sonic in the first cutscene) couldn't do.
As you mentioned Sonic lost to Infinite the first time around (I already explained that), then in their second encounter he notes Sonic is exceeding his previous data to a point he's concerned. In their third encounter Sonic and Rookie defeat Infinite in a close battle. But then get what happens after? Sonic, Rookie, and Classic Sonic destroy the Death Egg Robot who's empowered by the real Phantom Ruby which is so much stronger than the one Infinite had that he can create tens of thousands of clones of Infinite. Something Infinite could not get even close to replicating due to the prototype Ruby's power source being too small. Which obviously isn't a problem for the real deal.
Either when
- Sonic's friends are in trouble
- Sonic's fighting a big threat (SBA would cause Sonic to perceive Mario as that)
As for diminishing returns, refer to my previous comments.
AyOgUyS
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Ok, so on occasions he can grow I presume a few times stronger mid-combat.
What's the approximate timeframe through which all of this happened and was Sonic training or fighting during all that?
Is this the same instance you mentioned here? It also seems to me like Sonic grew passively during his first fight against Emerl which allowed him to gain a massive spike in stats. Sonic Battle seems like a situation in which the sheer amount of fighting Sonic was undergoing caused his normally unimpressive AD to spike, which actually makes a lot of sense considering his AD also spiked after going through a lot of fighting in Forces when he faced the Death Egg Robot. So it seems to me like Sonic's AD during Battle is due to the abnormal amount of combat he was undergoing rather than what's usual for him. Don't his friends even note his particularly fast growth, indicating once again that its not normal for him?
Really? Why not? Is there any evidence that Classic Sonic magically grew infinitely weaker after Gens?
None of that AD applied mid combat and it was over a long period of time. Seems like Sonic's AD applies a lot after he initially loses so that the next time he's stronger but rarely ever during the initial loss in question.
Yes, that happened. However it was a special circumstance in which Sonic may have been empowered by friendship or something similar. It also again, isn't something that applies while actively overwhelmed (in fact, the only instance where his AD actually does apply that you sent is the Rogue one in which he presumably didn't grow by billions of times)
I see. So like, would Sonic even be able to perceive Mario in the first place due to how fast Mario is?
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I think most if not all the game happens in one day unless I'm misrmembering. Sonic doesn't do much fighting after his story in the game is over and IIRC he was chilling at Tails' house. The game is played in parts so it's hard to remember the exact order of events.
He couldn't have grown to Emerl's level during the fight otherwise at the start of the fight Emerl would've one-shot Sonic. The moment the two started fighting they were equals, and Sonic won out after several rounds of fighting him at the climax of the game. Prior to that Sonic was on Earth keeping an eye on Emerl who went to space to take care of Eggman or whatever. He wasn't doing any fighting. Then Eggman caused him to revert to Ultimate Emerl where he was losing hi sense of self and was sent to space to fight him on the Death Egg.
It's the same for the Death Egg Robot where prior to fighting it he was much weaker than it, then as soon as sthe fight start he's strong enough to fight on par with it.
You also glossed over Classic Sonic entering Sonic's world and immediately growing to a level he could one-shot the Chaos 0 that Sonic's friends couldn't (and even Modern Sonic didn't for that matter) because Tails was in danger.
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If by "conflict" you mean "facing a threat", then you're right for the instant AD we're talking about, but I fail to see how that's an issue.
As Laser said, this isn't true.
Even if it was, Mario never leads with hax, so Sonic would be able to take a hit and adapt to the conflict as per your own logic.
Wdym "a lot"? You named one example Laser already explained while he named 5 counter-examples.
When the fight begins, of course. As per standard battle assumptions, the fighters both face each other at the start.
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No one said he grew infinitely weaker? I just said he wouldn't be stronger than a stronger Modern Sonic from a later game.
I addressed the diminishing gains in a previous comment. Do I just need to reply to it atp?
Friendship isn't something we accept at all as an amp. That's just a niche thing some Sonic powerscalers on tiktok or whatever say. Especially since it has little to no precedence of actually working in other instances.
The SBA is the two enemies are facing eachother and aware of each other's existence. If it allowed Classic Sonic to go from FTL to Infinite speed, Modern'll definitely be able to go from MFTL+ to more MFTL+.
AyOgUyS
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Ok.
Still. Sonic Battle was, like Forces, a situation in which Sonic's AD may have been developing faster than usual. Don't his friends literally point out his fast growth? That seems like an indication that Sonic's AD during that time was just particularly better than usual. The repeated rounds against Emerl might also have increased his AD rate to a degree. Actually, Sonic's AD might be particularly good at adapting to repeated rounds of the same opponent. That does help explain his growth in Forces against Infinite. So his big jump from Tier 4 to 3 was likely a combination of the repeated fights he underwent previously and his abnormal growth during that game spiking his AD.
I wouldn't say that. He had two people helping him and even then didn't he have to target the weak point? His AD was likely simply abnormally high in Forces, Infinite even implies that with his statement. Forces was a situation where the whole world is at stake, which would definitely spike Sonic's AD to insane levels beyond what he's normally capable of. Sonic's literally fighting for the sake of everyone on the planet now, if that isn't an insane motivator for his AD to start going crazy, idk what is.
Why wouldn't that be because he retained the Modern Era scaling from Generations and simply kept growing stronger since then? Is there any indication that Forces is like immediately after Generations?
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It was only faster when he was actually starting to lose against Rouge. Everywhere else in the game it's not notable outside of at the end when he fights Emerl. So it's not like it gradually sped up. It was faster when he was losing, and then faster when he had to fight someone who could one shot him and was genuinely a threat to the entire planet.
I agreed that people being in danger increases the potency of it. The greater the risk, the greater the potency of his ability. Which is why by SBA when he's fighting a dude many many times faster with him knowing that losing poses a great risk/threat (as that's used to make the characters take eachother seriously by SBA), his growth would be spiked. If the rules were Sonic started off by thinking Mario was a joke or smth then I'd be more skeptical of it applying full force. But that's not how AD works since it makes fights more difficult otherwise.
Forces is like a few months after Generations IIRC. For Classic Sonic I don't know since he's from a different dimension at that point in time. But if you agree Classic Sonic could've grown stronger, you also have to acknowledge Modern Sonic also got stronger. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
AyOgUyS
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Ugh. I really don't like to say it but the AD is starting to make sense (still overhyped but fine I can settle with Classic and Adventure Era Sonic being usually able to grow to the level of opponents by standing for now). So now Sonic instantly becomes Mario's level of speed and then the Spin Dash and Boost come into play.
The Wonder Flower can duplicate Mario and even with Sonic's insane AD that should help right? Sonic's AD is like one big spike and then it kinda just stagnates. The Wonder Flower also has layered Transmutation so that could be something to look out for.
The Wonder Flower can duplicate Mario and even with Sonic's insane AD that should help right? Sonic's AD is like one big spike and then it kinda just stagnates. The Wonder Flower also has layered Transmutation so that could be something to look out for.
AyOgUyS
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Mario has a shit ton of hax and also infinite attempts to beat Sonic while Sonic doesn't have the same. Surely he can win.
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Tbf this is Adventure Sonic not Modern, and I also think some things need to be touched up on on Sonic's profile that might be a bit too generous.
Yes, I don't think his AD would help with that at all, so Mario's good there in regards to clones. Sonic is skilled enough to fight several clones at once, but his AD doesn't help with that, yes.
AyOgUyS
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The Power Star seems to grant a one tap level amp above Mario's base form. Stack that with whatever other strength increasing stuff he has and he just needs to land one hit to K.O Sonic and since Sonic's big AD spike already happened, it's not like his durability is gonna like suddenly spike by a gazillion times, right? Now the only problem is actually hitting Sonic. Doesn't the Wonder Flower have pretty fast acting reality warping? Could Mario warp the environment to restrict Sonic's speed?
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Unfortunately, I don't think the Wonder Flower's reality warping can be controlled, it's just kinda up to chance what it does, so it's not guaranteed to work in Mario's favor
AyOgUyS
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GlaceonGamez471
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The ever nefarious Chaos Control to gtfo:
AyOgUyS
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OH COME ONNNNNNNN
Ok what if Mario just uses the Power Star telekinesis to rip away the Chaos Emerald and yeet it into outer space?
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When Ultimate Gemerl took the Chaos Emeralds to outer space, Sonic just summoned them right back to him no problem.OH COME ONNNNNNNN
Ok what if Mario just uses the Power Star telekinesis to rip away the Chaos Emerald and yeet it into outer space?
He isn't. It's insanely close. Both of them are caught in a stalemate with very few means to break the tie, and both are relatively even in stats all things considered.
Welcome to the club. That's exactly how I felt when Laser made me come around to it in this very thread.
Sonic has the blue Chaos Emerald now, which means he can self duplicate too. Mario's duplication methods are slightly more varied in their application though. Transmutation works as a win con here regardless of if it's layered or not due to Sonic's resistance being restricted. That being said, Wonder Flowers are not reliable at all and could even backfire.
This would be fair, if not for rings providing 6D damage transferal as well as rebirths, pets, and trails, working in tandem with Infinite Magnet to ensure that Sonic NEVER runs out of rings. He even has item boxes to provide him with more rings, and more defensive layers that Mario needs to break through or outlast (shields and invincibillity). Even innately, Sonic can generate a shield tough enough to block attacks that would normally one shot him. He even has Power Cores to make himself up to 8x stronger and tougher. Mario is NOT winning this fight with brute force.
AyOgUyS
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Ok what if Mario transmutes the Chaos Emerald? Super Forms have Transmutation Resistance but not the Emeralds themselves.
OH COME ON
LukeChaosBlobz
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