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Low Tier Marvel Comics Speed Revisions

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@Armorchompy @M3X_2.0

Are you willing to help out here again please? 🙏

vsbattles.com

Low Tier Marvel Comics Speed Revisions

Well, that's not good. I'm still keeping the Moon Knight one, he's supposed to have variable speed anyway. I think it was previously established that Moon Knight scales differently so it should be fine. Spider-Man is a really bad character to find consistency I do think he is scaling way to...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Rex_Eckles said:
Part 1: Electra's been replaced
Remember Electra's mach 8.23 feat that's been used to scale about 2/3rds of Marvel? Well now we can use Captain America's mach 11.6 to mach 20 feat to scale everyone to!

Who's affected? Only the street tiers (I can conjure up a list later).
Click to expand...
Taking a closer look at this, it should be noted that OP forgot some crucial information like the name and issue of the comics. Besides that, it would technically treat profiles that have different era profiles/keys like classic and modern different. Shang-Chi, for example, has classic and modern keys, his classic key would be hypersonic+ and his modern high hypersonic.

Also, I do believe Cap being used in the scaling chain far better than Elektra, she is supposed to be one of the most agile and fastest characters in street level department, using her to scale everyone, especially people that she would easily blitz in combat, is wack.
 
Tomfer said:
I meant the calc blog. It needs to have the comic and issue for people to evaluate the context later if needed.


The High hypersonic feat was done by the modern era Cap, modern era Cap should be equal to Modern era Shang-Chi. Or was the high hypersonic feat rejected?
Click to expand...
The ICBM feat was Mach 20, which is Hypersonic+, I’m pretty sure.
 
If somebody writes a summary post, I can ping other members for help. 🙏
 
Suigetsuhyugs said:
  • OP proposes a new value to substitute Electra's using a calc from Captain America.
  • Multiple calcs to support an upgrade for a lot of marvel characters, the mid tiers. Those calcs range from High Hipersonic to sub relativistic, which would scale to combat reaction and flight speed
  • Removal of relativistic with precog from Scarlet Spider's profile, and either scale Spiderman to mid tiers or add a far higher.
1 staff questioned the possibility of scaling mid tiers from those feats to combat/reaction speed, arguments in favor of OP were brought up here
Impress seems to thing those over 10 calcs is not enough and proposed multiple possible solutions which no staff member commented on. Last comment Impress wanted to check the context to see the feats are valid that was in April over a month ago, only bumps after that.
Click to expand...
Rex_Eckles said:
Anyways, the contention is A) whether these characters' travel speeds are comparable to their combat speeds and if so B) whether the feats in question represent said level of reactable travel speed.

Of course, there's also whether or not they're consistent AND what level is best.
Click to expand...
 
Well, you are free to help out as well. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
What do you think about the above post? 🙏
Click to expand...
If all calcs were accepted and they're mathematically right, it's a good start. I'm satisfied that OP took calcs from both classic and modern comics, and truth be told, did a better job than that we did a few years ago with the hypersonic downgrade. Reason? Now we have multiple calcs instead of relying on a single one, being the Elektra hypersonic. I will always say that we must have more than a single calc for safer scaling.

The main issue at hand is Spider-Man/F4 scaling. After all, F4 got downgraded because of Spider-man. My take is, if Spider-man does scale, everyone is going to do as well. Like I said before, it is long gone the days where Spidey is at the top in scaling. It is a good thing that OP also made a Moon Knight sub real to real calc, however, that is just the start before any actual upgrades will happen to the street level gang. IMO, I think the reason why F4 got downgraded is pretty stupid because, thematically speaking, F4 stories are far more "extra" and gradioso than Spidey, especially their villains, but that's not enough (unless M3X's thread is accepted).

That's my little TLDR.
 
Last edited:
Antvasima said:
So which staff and knowledgeable members have thought what here so far? 🙏
Click to expand...
M3X largely agreed with the thread, while Armorchompy disagreed with scaling the travel speed feats to combat speed.

Suig, agreed with the thread (he helped with the thread), Tomfer seems okay with the thread, Efficiente was unsure about some feats that were since discarded, Impress questioned the feat consistency and proposed this:

"So for solutions, I suppose we have these options:
  • We treat speed as a variable (or functionally variable) for most mainline characters, treating it under an unsaid exhaustion mechanic, this I believe is a proposal getting floated around already? That makes every character's speed freefall to their own feats or if there is a consistency: more concentrated scaling nets, if we apply our usual scrutiny for cross-scale
  • Disregard antifeats as PIS, this leads to another rating freefall for the scaling characters. This is more arbitrary and/or more research intensive to justify, and leads to higher, rigid results for the characters, which might be appreciable to some.
  • Disregard high end feats as outliers, so it's some low end rating that's the lowest common denominator.
  • As said, leave everything Unknown and just do comparative scaling/list any relevant speed feats of their own in that section. That way the reader can come to their own conclusion (You can even leave calcs if you so desire). Personally I prefer this, but people tend to prefer actual ratings so I assume this is the unpopular proposal.
(One of these not all of these)" - Impress, 2 months ago

Armorchompy didn't hate Option 4, Tllmbrg supported Option 4, Excellence supported Option 1 and Option 2.
 
We normally need in universe explanations or something to grant variable ratings. Hulk's "Angrier he gets, the stronger he gets" or Flash's connection to the Speed Force are examples, not sure if the Street tiers of Marvel have explanations like that. Option 2 and Option 3 have contentions on opposite directions; where Option 2 sounds is stereotypically something that leads to "Wank" where as Option 3 is basically "Downplaying." Option 4 seems most basic, but it's also what is called the most "Lazy" or "Dull" option.

I would want something between Option 2 and 3, but acknowledge a difference between direct feats and indirect feats. The former is a character's own demonstrated feats while the latter is a "Kept up with another character" situation. Obviously, indirect feats involving keeping up with Massively FTL+ heralds are outliers, but using Option 2 regarding direct feats from various Street Tier characters seems good to me.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
We normally need in universe explanations or something to grant variable ratings. Hulk's "Angrier he gets, the stronger he gets" or Flash's connection to the Speed Force are examples, not sure if the Street tiers of Marvel have explanations like that. Option 2 and Option 3 have contentions on opposite directions; where Option 2 sounds is stereotypically something that leads to "Wank" where as Option 3 is basically "Downplaying." Option 4 seems most basic, but it's also what is called the most "Lazy" or "Dull" option.

I would want something between Option 2 and 3, but acknowledge a difference between direct feats and indirect feats. The former is a character's own demonstrated feats while the latter is a "Kept up with another character" situation. Obviously, indirect feats involving keeping up with Massively FTL+ heralds are outliers, but using Option 2 regarding direct feats from various Street Tier characters seems good to me
Click to expand...
I agree with everything you said, I think the solution should be more focused on who should scale rather than trying to find a weird solution to put everyone on the same level, that way avoiding "wank" and "downplay". This thread has multiple feats that should be consistent but whatever value we use from them doesn't upgrade everyone who currently is hypersonic, it only affects some who are more consistent with this that street tiers.
 
Antvasima said:
Variable speed ratings seem to make sense to me, given how insanely inconsistent it is handled for most characters. 🙏
Click to expand...
I plan on eventually making a thread to address the issue of a variable rating being needed but not allowed by our current standards since it requires an in-universe explanation.

In general, I'd say that for most comic characters, or any character with a huge variety of different portrayals, having some range of values is the only thing that actually makes sense and doesn't blindly bias us towards the highest end possible.
 
Antvasima said:
We seem to need help here. 🙏
Click to expand...
Rex_Eckles said:
Tomfer seems okay with the thread
Click to expand...
I am 50% okay with the thread, the other half is questioning the scaling chain on the street level people.

Rex_Eckles said:
"So for solutions, I suppose we have these options:
  • We treat speed as a variable (or functionally variable) for most mainline characters, treating it under an unsaid exhaustion mechanic, this I believe is a proposal getting floated around already? That makes every character's speed freefall to their own feats or if there is a consistency: more concentrated scaling nets, if we apply our usual scrutiny for cross-scale
  • Disregard antifeats as PIS, this leads to another rating freefall for the scaling characters. This is more arbitrary and/or more research intensive to justify, and leads to higher, rigid results for the characters, which might be appreciable to some.
  • Disregard high end feats as outliers, so it's some low end rating that's the lowest common denominator.
  • As said, leave everything Unknown and just do comparative scaling/list any relevant speed feats of their own in that section. That way the reader can come to their own conclusion (You can even leave calcs if you so desire). Personally I prefer this, but people tend to prefer actual ratings so I assume this is the unpopular proposal.
(One of these not all of these)" - Impress, 2 months ago
Click to expand...
In a way... I don't think we NEED the variable thing? I've seen profiles that have more than one level of speed without the variable tag, like "Subsonic, up to Hypersonic" or something similar. I guess we can do something similar? Truth be told, there ARE evidences and concepts we can use to put the variable tier in all marvel characters, it's something I talked about with Confluctor a few months ago. I believe, in a Doctor Strange comic (?), we found out that all Marvel characters are archtypes of old stories that grew stronger as their stories are told, or something like that? It's something similar to the Moon Knight scan where all gods are stories. Someone can correct me later, I'm just spitballing here.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
We normally need in universe explanations or something to grant variable ratings. Hulk's "Angrier he gets, the stronger he gets" or Flash's connection to the Speed Force are examples, not sure if the Street tiers of Marvel have explanations like that. Option 2 and Option 3 have contentions on opposite directions; where Option 2 sounds is stereotypically something that leads to "Wank" where as Option 3 is basically "Downplaying." Option 4 seems most basic, but it's also what is called the most "Lazy" or "Dull" option.
Click to expand...
^ Regarding the options, I agree with Medeus on this one.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
I would want something between Option 2 and 3, but acknowledge a difference between direct feats and indirect feats. The former is a character's own demonstrated feats while the latter is a "Kept up with another character" situation. Obviously, indirect feats involving keeping up with Massively FTL+ heralds are outliers, but using Option 2 regarding direct feats from various Street Tier characters seems good to me.
Click to expand...
I guess this compromise would work like this:

Spider-Man: At least Hypersonic+ (New Cap calc here, stuff about dodging bullets and being a normal street level), up to Sub-Relativistic+ (Scaling to to the calcs presented by OP)

That's what you're offering?
 
Rex_Eckles said:
My idea is to just scale them to Captain America, but if you don't think that works we'll figure something out.
Click to expand...
The problem is that you're making F4 scaling to low tiers, and they got downgraded because of Spider-man. You see the problem? Either way, we will be scaling them to these new calcs.
 
Tomfer said:
you're making F4 scaling to low tiers, and they got downgraded because of Spider-man
Click to expand...
Well, they already were, kinda. Their profiles just link to each other, with Human Torch's linking to Namor's who links to Hulk's and blah blah blah. I guess multiple ratings work best for them, instead of giving all the street tiers "Hypersonic+ up to whatever we decide on". Or a possibly rating or whatever. Or a note.

We've got options.
 
FinePoint said:
I plan on eventually making a thread to address the issue of a variable rating being needed but not allowed by our current standards since it requires an in-universe explanation.

In general, I'd say that for most comic characters, or any character with a huge variety of different portrayals, having some range of values is the only thing that actually makes sense and doesn't blindly bias us towards the highest end possible.
Click to expand...
Strongly agreed. 🙏
Tomfer said:
I believe, in a Doctor Strange comic (?), we found out that all Marvel characters are archtypes of old stories that grew stronger as their stories are told, or something like that? It's something similar to the Moon Knight scan where all gods are stories. Someone can correct me later, I'm just spitballing here.
Click to expand...
I think that you are referring to Al Ewing's Defenders stories. 🙏
 
Yes. Also agreed. I am just very tired in general. My apologies.

Btw: I think that Marvel Comics and DC Comics have much greater problems with enormous inconsistencies than other verses, so variable tiers should definitely be prioritised for them. 🙏
 
FinePoint said:
I will move it up my priority list, but we should probably first resolve some of my other several staff threads still open.
There's several really important ones still unresolved too.
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
Yes. Also agreed. I am just very tired in general. My apologies.

Btw: I think that Marvel Comics and DC Comics have much greater problems with enormous inconsistencies than other verses, so variable tiers should definitely be prioritised for them. 🙏
Click to expand...
How would a "possibly" rating make you guys feel? There's gotta be a way to acknowledge feats and maintain consistency.
 
I generally agree with the "Blank, up to Blank" approach in lieu of an in universe variability mechanic. I'm far from an expert on street tiers, though, so take that with a grain of salt.
 
Variable tiers are just going to allow people to get away with outliers and put 3-C MFTL+ on Spider-Man's profile, without actually adding any consistency to the "real" ratings of the characters. No offense FinePoint but this kind of revision should not be handled by someone who isn't even really knowledgeable on the verse.

Saying the street tiers (or these people for that matter) are Relativistic/FTL is a huge outlier no matter how you slice it, it's not something you can acknowledge as a high end or something.
 
Armorchompy said:
Variable tiers are just going to allow people to get away with outliers and put 3-C MFTL+ on Spider-Man's profile, without actually adding any consistency to the "real" ratings of the characters. No offense FinePoint but this kind of revision should not be handled by someone who isn't even really knowledgeable on the verse.

Saying the street tiers (or these people for that matter) are Relativistic/FTL is a huge outlier no matter how you slice it, it's not something you can acknowledge as a high end or something.
Click to expand...
Could we just dismiss street tiers scaling to these faster guys as outliers too?
 
FinePoint said:
I plan on eventually making a thread to address the issue of a variable rating being needed but not allowed by our current standards since it requires an in-universe explanation.

In general, I'd say that for most comic characters, or any character with a huge variety of different portrayals, having some range of values is the only thing that actually makes sense and doesn't blindly bias us towards the highest end possible.
Click to expand...
This is the "Varies 10-C to 1-A Gwenpool plothax" crap. Terrible idea lol.

I don't know what happens in Marvel scaling specifically where people either act like antifeats don't exist or antifeats happen every other issue. Like it's always the extremes lol. But no, there is a consistency most writers gravitate towards. There are like, a HANDFUL of characters that ARE just that inconsistent, none of whom have a profile and they're not high end heroes, they're mfers like Mr. Hyde and Wrecker lol.

If there is no variability mechanic, list them Unknown. End of story.
 
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