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Reinhard van Astrea Vs. Sasuke Uchiha

Doggo said:
I'm actually having a headache reading lol

Can someone summarize (I already voted, but I want future voters to better comprehend the arguments in regards to mind hax)
Click to expand...
It's stated mind hax would work by Naruto fans based on Reinhard not having layered immunity but it hasn't been addressed why DP of Insensitivity doesn't work against genjutsu.
 
Crimsonobu said:
It's stated mind hax would work by Naruto fans based on Reinhard not having layered immunity but it hasn't been addressed why DP of Insensitivity doesn't work against genjutsu.
Click to expand...
What does that Divine Protection do? I'm just an anime only here
 
Doggo said:
What does that Divine Protection do? I'm just an anime only here
Click to expand...
It grants immunity against any enhancement or impairment to the user whether brainwashing, stat buff, sensory deprivation, statistical debuff and etc.

To my understanding to work on an individual who has immunity against X ability you need some kind of immunity negation as layers are a measurement of potency, not immunity negation.
 
Generic "immunity" is just resistance in vsbw.

The only way to get actual immunity to mind manipulation in vsbw would be to lack a mind. Like having nonexistent physiology for your mind. Or just lacking it altogether because the verse simply does not have that aspect in it.

Reinhard has a mind. Thus an "immunity" like that is still bypassed by layered abilities.
 
Phoenks said:
Generic "immunity" is just resistance in vsbw.

The only way to get actual immunity to mind manipulation in vsbw would be to lack a mind. Like having nonexistent physiology for your mind. Or just lacking it altogether because the verse simply does not have that aspect in it.

Reinhard has a mind. Thus an "immunity" like that is still bypassed by layered abilities.
Click to expand...
When has immunity been categorised as resistance?
 
Doggo said:
I'm actually having a headache reading lol

Can someone summarize (I already voted, but I want future voters to better comprehend the arguments in regards to mind hax)
Click to expand...
I voted for Reinhard, and anyone who thinks differently is wrong 🤓
That's all you need to know, my friend
 
Crimsonobu said:
When has immunity been categorised as resistance?
Click to expand...
It have always been. Statements of immunities just give you a resistance as it's an NFL to assume a character is totally immune to an hax.

The only immunity that is ever accepted on the wiki as Phoenks said is by lacking the aspect attacked.
Ex: *a character without a soul is immune to soul hax
*A character that is inorganic would be immune to biological manipulation
*A character with Type 5 immortality is immune to death manip

Even then these "immunities" can still be bypassed by some unconventional use of those abilities.
Reusing an above example:
*While a souless character is typically immune to soul manip, he could be affected by a character who can affect the souls of being without souls (it may sound stupid but I've seen case like this in the past.)
 
DP of Insensitivity works by negating the interaction itself. This differs from conventional resistance, where the interaction occurs but the effect fails to take hold. In that sense, it's closer to an invulnerability like Regulus's ability—he doesn't actively resist abilities after they've affected him; rather, he's fundamentally incapable of being interacted with in the first place.

But again, closed eyes, passive powernull, and a single sword slash...

well either way, the conclusion doesn't change and is OP counting votes? what is the score?
 
Franstel said:
It have always been. Statements of immunities just give you a resistance as it's an NFL to assume a character is totally immune to an hax.

The only immunity that is ever accepted on the wiki as Phoenks said is by lacking the aspect attacked.
Ex: *a character without a soul is immune to soul hax
*A character that is inorganic would be immune to biological manipulation
*A character with Type 5 immortality is immune to death manip

Even then these "immunities" can still be bypassed by some unconventional use of those abilities.
Reusing an above example:
*While a souless character is typically immune to soul manip, he could be affected by a character who can affect the souls of being without souls (it may sound stupid but I've seen case like this in the past.)
Click to expand...
This is different in that the immunity doesn't cancel the ability but the immunity makes sure the effects of the ability never take place. In other words you need genjutsu that can bypass an ability that can stop genjutsu from working in the first place.
 
Crimsonobu said:
When has immunity been categorised as resistance?
Click to expand...
pretty much all the time, the very handful of times it was an actual "immunity" is when the character straight up lacks whatever the other guy is haxing

having X aspect but not getting haxed in verse and stating its because there is an immunity, something protecting it, something preventing it from getting it haxed is only an immunity in verse, in the context of the pages and for indexing purposes it is always a resistance (with the obvious explanation) but it wont be assumed to be an immunity in vs matches
 
SatellaTheWoE said:
DP of Insensitivity works by negating the interaction itself. This differs from conventional resistance, where the interaction occurs but the effect fails to take hold. In that sense, it's closer to an invulnerability like Regulus's ability—he doesn't actively resist abilities after they've affected him; rather, he's fundamentally incapable of being interacted with in the first place.

But again, closed eyes, passive powernull, and a single sword slash...

well either way, the conclusion doesn't change and is OP counting votes? what is the score?
Click to expand...
Has any Nard supporter addressed this DP, because that sounds broken asf
 
Are you just making stuff up for the DP???

Because

1. It isn't listed under Reinhard's ability section

2. Even looking it up off site, the description it has is extremely vague compared to what's being said about it here


In Re:Zero − Starting Life in Another World: The Prophecy of the Throne, the Divine Protection of Insensitivity (鈍感の加護, Donkan no Kago) was used by Tiga Rauleon. It makes sure the user's body cannot be interfered with by any outside influences, whether be magical enhancement or impairment.
Click to expand...

Without any stated mechanism or elaboration, this is just resistance.
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
pretty much all the time, the very handful of times it was an actual "immunity" is when the character straight up lacks whatever the other guy is haxing

having X aspect but not getting haxed in verse and stating its because there is an immunity, something protecting it, something preventing it from getting it haxed is only an immunity in verse, in the context of the pages and for indexing purposes it is always a resistance (with the obvious explanation) but it wont be assumed to be an immunity in vs matches
Click to expand...
That's that type of immunity. I'm saying this immunity here prevents the effect of X ability from taking place rather than resisting/immunity to the ability.
 
Phoenks said:
Are you just making stuff up for the DP???

Because

1. It isn't listed under Reinhard's ability section

2. Even looking it up off site, the description it has is extremely vague compared to what's being said about it here




Without any stated mechanism or elaboration, this is just resistance.
Click to expand...
Not really. We see it used in the game and how it works. It's also listed in Reinhard's divine Protection if you scroll down the box as one of the abilities he can potentially get.
 
Crimsonobu said:
Not really. We see it used in the game and how it works. It's also listed in Reinhard's divine Protection if you scroll down the box as one of the abilities he can potentially get.
Click to expand...
It's not listed as an ability on the page.

Also, scans of the mechanism? If you have none, then there's nothing you can really say about it for this match that would actually alter anything.
 
Last edited:
Stopped procrastinating, this will be last post
Hercules1125 said:
No shot, this is the argument, just because something is composed of the energy of a specific entity does not mean it is identical to the source of the energy, in the same way how heat can be composed of the kinetic energy of particles, but it is not identical to the microwave creating said heat
Click to expand...
This would be true for say ninjutsu, but for raw chakra specifically that’s completely irrelevant
Hercules1125 said:
You can't be serious, in the image you sent yourself, it displays that Chakra is something which is composed of physical energy and spirit energy,
Click to expand...
And where was I wrong? The physical energy acts as an amplifier, it doesn’t make an entirely new form of energy like you are suggesting? And once again chakra is a umbrella term for describing energy in the verse
Hercules1125 said:
and then you can combine it with nature energy to make it stronger, not that it amplifies some entity which already exists, this is explained in chapter 17 and it does not get any more blatant than this that Chakra is simply a composite of two different types of energy.
Click to expand...
Then explain why during hags time, spritual energy alone what’s called chakra? Once again a umbrella term, check out the new verse page for Naruto you will see that it too calls chakra a umbrella term
Hercules1125 said:
That's what's in question. I agree the Human path can do that. There is no evidence that the Preta path can do such a thing, just because taking Chakra and pulling people's souls out can both kill you does not refute the argument.
Click to expand...
Hercules1125 said:
You're walking yourself into a hole. If Chakra is simply the soul, then the human path absorbing chakra would allow them to get the same information that the human path would through just ripping your soul out, as they are both direct interaction with the soul.
Click to expand...
You are presupposing the very thing you need to prove: that chakra absorption grants informational transfer.

The Human Path and the Preta Path perform fundamentally different operations. Human Path is explicitly shown reading minds through direct contact and accessing information from the target. This is the ability’s stated function and is consistently demonstrated throughout the series.

By contrast, the Preta Path’s demonstrated function is merely chakra absorption. It absorbs chakra to drain opponents and nullify techniques. At no point is it stated or shown to acquire memories, thoughts, knowledge, skills, or any other informational content from the chakra it absorbs.

Even if chakra, souls, and minds are treated as equivalent, it does not follow that absorbing chakra grants access to the information contained within it. That is an additional premise that requires evidence.

In fact, Naruto provides examples suggesting the opposite. The chakra fruit and similar absorption methods require absorbing an individual’s entirety in order to obtain their memories, genetics, abilities, and accumulated experiences. This indicates that acquiring information is a distinct process from merely absorbing chakra reserves.

Therefore the comparison to Human Path fails. Human Path’s ability is explicitly information extraction, whereas Preta Path’s ability is chakra absorption.
Hercules1125 said:
Once more, there is not a single statement in the series using Chakra and soul interchangeably
Click to expand...
Ignorance is bliss 😭

You are just proofing that you never touched a single page of Naruto. Anyways here’s some easy to understand examples
  • Madara soul level his Edo Body, Mei says his chakra clings to his body
  • Hagoromo is called a soul cuz, you know his dead. Chakra thought body
Hercules1125 said:
Planetary Chakra means what it says. We know that planets in Boruto have their own energies within them, which is the entire point of the Otsutsuki choosing to drain the chakra off the planet. All Boruto is doing is using the planet's Chakra to fuel its rotation, then using it in the form of Uzuhiko. This is not complicated to understand.
Click to expand...
Just admit you didn’t read the series, like how can you make such a blunder 🥀

Oats place god trees on planets to absorb the life force on the planet, not the planet itself. This has been stated by atleast 10 different times across multiple mediums (shonen jump, Naruto website, manga and anime)

Boruto by his own omission says that he called these energies “chakra” cuz it’s easier to do so
Hercules1125 said:
Except they don't meet in a spiritual realm, we see it explicitly stated to be a mental one, one which has no connection with the soul and has nothing to do with it but rather is something created by his connection to the Bijuu, it's like you didn't read the series you're arguing with me about.
Click to expand...
Accuses me of not reading the series I reap when he doesn’t know that mind and soul are the same. Literally on the profile, I know you can’t read the series but atleast try to read the profiles

Here’s what the kanji says
  • 精神世界 (seishin sekai) = literally “mental-spiritual world”
Literally confirms that soul and mind are the same which is also reflected on our profiles. Also this space is created by two concessions intersecting one another. Please read, I’ll go to more detail down.
Hercules1125 said:
This actually gets worse because if you take the view that these statements about the soul are literal here, then you would have to concede that the soul in Naruto has mass and can be interacted with by things like rocks,
Click to expand...
Once again proofing that you never touched a single chapter of Naruto. Chakra can be intangible or material. Naruto in the last is a perfect example of this, he coats himself in chakra and phases into hinata (pause). We have even more examples
Chakra inherently can be tangible and intangible. Also you would know this if you would look at the profiles, like what’s wrong with looking at them? Why are you avoiding them like the plague?
Hercules1125 said:
that the other 5 statements about Chakra being composed of both are wrong and retconned, the more likely interpretation here is that spiritual body is merely a figurative term used to describe their form.
Click to expand...
Wow so every instance of this is retcon, by what logic are you assuming this? You haven’t even read a single chapter of Naruto yet claim that it was retconned?

You can’t be real man, anyway here’s smth to write about

Defining Spiritual energy
Since the very beginning of Naruto chakra has been created from two energies, spiritual and physical energy. Physical energy is the energy produced by all the cells in one’s body, while spritual energy is more nuanced.

The kanji used to describe spritual energy is 精神エネルギー (seishin enerugī):
  • 精 (sei) = refined, pure, essence

  • 神 (shin) = spirit, mind, soul

  • 精神 (seishin) = spirit, mind, mentality, mental facilities
Here we can see that seishin can mean either mind and soul. However, this isn’t the intended fiction of this kanji as the kanji for both mind and soul are
  • Mind; 心
  • Soul; 魂
Kishimoto could have easily used the kanji 心 (mind) to explain spiritual energy but specifically chose 精神 (seishin). This is because Kishimoto intended for the soul and mind to be a single entity which is reflected in this kanji 精神, literally translated to mental-spiritual essence.

This isn’t a stretch either as we see countless examples of this starting

Mental Spaces
what’s a mental space in Naruto? Mental spaces are area manifested when two or more consciousness interect with one another allowing for telepathy, sharing of thoughts, memories, information or fight with their astral self.
  • Most recent example includes the death of kurama where he sacrificed his own life in exchange for Baryon Mode. This is shown to us by Kurama turning into mist and latter being reborn, explaining that even a tailed beasts mind, soul and body are destroyed they can be reborn a new
  • Outer path chains binds the victims souls which we see in the mental realm is binding their astral self
  • Kurama soul being sealed into Naruto via the reaper death seal, hence appearing his mental space
  • Kurama stated his gonna consume Naruto’s soul when he was about to absorb Naruto astral self
  • Dan possess Tsunade as a soul after using spirit transformation and meets her as a soul in her mindscape
  • Mind transmission jutsu
Proofing mind and soul are one of spiritual energy and Yin release wasn’t obvious enough

Susanoo
霊体化したチャクラを容器にした魔神の姿は、まさに圧巻。その猛る時は、眼前のあらゆる敵を滅ぼすまで、破壊の限りを尽くす!!

“The form of a fierce deity that uses spiritualized chakra as its vessel is truly overwhelming. When it rages, it exhausts every means of destruction until all enemies before its eyes are annihilated!!”

• 霊 (rei) = spirit, spiritual
• 体 (tai) = body, form
• 化 (ka) = transformation, becoming

So:

霊体 = “spirit body” / “spiritual body” / “spiritual form”
霊体化 = “spiritualization” / “becoming a spiritual body”

Tanya
jutsu Revolt of the Demon World (Makyou no Ran) causing many-mouthed, worm-like spirits made of chkara to emerge from the mouths of the Doki. The chakra of the spirits is entirely spritual energy.
  • “三体の妖鬼を操る 死の旋律!!”
    • “Manipulating three demon spirits — the melody of death!!”
Mind Transmission Jutsu (databook)

その精神、宙を飛び敵の身体を奪わん!!
“That spirit (seishin) flies through the air and seizes the enemy’s body!!”

Body text

自分の精神を放出して対象者にぶつけ、肉体を乗っ取る。成功すれば、瞬時に勝敗が決するほどの大技だ。

“One releases one’s own spirit (seishin) and strikes the target with it, taking over their body. If successful, it is a great technique capable of deciding victory or defeat in an instant.”

Limitation note
精神エネルギーを全て飛ばすため、射程距離や命中率はかなり限定されてしまう。

“Because all of one’s mental/spiritual energy (seishin) is sent out, range and accuracy become quite limited.”

Spiritual energy is consistently mentioned through this entire databook entry while the manga expands on this by saying
  • “JUST AS I THOUGHT...IT'S HER SIGNATURE SHINTENSHIN MOVE, TRANSFERRING HEART AND SOUL FROM ONE BODY TO ANOTHER!!”
And
  • ...SHINTENSHIN NO JUTSU - THE MIND TRANSFER TECHNIQUE – WHERE ALL OF YOUR PSYCHIC AND SPIRITUAL ENERGY IS LOOSED UPON YOUR ENEMY AND YOU USURP THE PSYCHE OF YOUR OPPONENT…
Once again affirming that mind and soul are one in the same and fall under the same term “spiritual energy”
Other soul stuff

Kurama
  • Kurama was stated to have gotten smaller after his soul was split in half.
    • We visibly see the soul of Kurama being ripped out of him as that's happening.
    • A chakra monster gets smaller as his soul is ripped in half.
  • We see Minato's and Kurama's souls linked together.
    • It's stated that the souls of the user and the caster will battle forever.
      • Which explains why Minato was able to get Nine-Tails Chakra Mode, which is gained by taking the chakra of Kurama.
Edo Tensei
Madara's Body: Soul starts to leave, but it goes right back into Madara's body.
Mei Terumi: Madara's chakra, which had started to separate from his body, is now clinging firmly to it.

We know these are souls because Dan flat out confirms that they're souls.
  • Dan: Souls ascending after being released from the Edo Tensei can be controlled with this Jutsu too.

Hagoromo/Indra/Asura
Hagoromo was able to return to the place of the living because his chakra was reunited.

Hagoromo is clearly dead, but he says that he has wandered throughout the world as chakra(he flat out says that he's dead).
  • He says that Naruto summoned his soul, so it's confirmation that Hagoromo as of that point is a soul. He is a soul that wanders as chakra, hmm...
    • His soul gave Naruto and Sasuke chakra, and was weakened after that.
    • When they sealed Kaguya, he got his chakra back.
He says that his son, Ashura, reincarnated into Naruto.
  • Reincarnation Definition
    • The belief that the soul, upon death of the body, comes back to earth in another body or form.
    • Rebirth of the soul in a new body.
    • A new incarnation or embodiment, as of a person.
Hagoromo says he sees his chakra clinging onto Naruto.

Momoshiki turned Kinshiki into a chakra fruit, which it stated to be his soul

Chakra dragon absorbs chakra from Shinobi, looks exactly the same as the souls pulled by human path

Too lazy to get the scans but you get the idea, this all could have been avoided if you just decided to read the profiles
 
Last edited:
My vote remains the same,
  • Rein will look at sasuke eyes when he fight cuz of his bs knight personality. Plus he has no idea how sharingan genjutsu works
  • His first move is not a giant nuke which again can be blocked via susanoo
  • All his blessings are vague resistance which cannot combat layered stuff. Not that it matters cuz it’s not even on his profile
Like honestly sasuke can just speed blitz using sunshin and neck chop to make Rein unconscious, winning the match. But I digress.
 
AlternativePrinciple said:
Stopped procrastinating, this will be last post

This would be true for say ninjutsu, but for raw chakra specifically that’s completely irrelevant

And where was I wrong? The physical energy acts as an amplifier, it doesn’t make an entirely new form of energy like you are suggesting? And once again chakra is a umbrella term for describing energy in the verse

Then explain why during hags time, spritual energy alone what’s called chakra? Once again a umbrella term, check out the new verse page for Naruto you will see that it too calls chakra a umbrella term


You are presupposing the very thing you need to prove: that chakra absorption grants informational transfer.

The Human Path and the Preta Path perform fundamentally different operations. Human Path is explicitly shown reading minds through direct contact and accessing information from the target. This is the ability’s stated function and is consistently demonstrated throughout the series.

By contrast, the Preta Path’s demonstrated function is merely chakra absorption. It absorbs chakra to drain opponents and nullify techniques. At no point is it stated or shown to acquire memories, thoughts, knowledge, skills, or any other informational content from the chakra it absorbs.

Even if chakra, souls, and minds are treated as equivalent, it does not follow that absorbing chakra grants access to the information contained within it. That is an additional premise that requires evidence.

In fact, Naruto provides examples suggesting the opposite. The chakra fruit and similar absorption methods require absorbing an individual’s entirety in order to obtain their memories, genetics, abilities, and accumulated experiences. This indicates that acquiring information is a distinct process from merely absorbing chakra reserves.

Therefore the comparison to Human Path fails. Human Path’s ability is explicitly information extraction, whereas Preta Path’s ability is chakra absorption.

Ignorance is bliss 😭

You are just proofing that you never touched a single page of Naruto. Anyways here’s some easy to understand examples
  • Madara soul level his Edo Body, Mei says his chakra clings to his body
  • Hagoromo is called a soul cuz, you know his dead. Chakra thought body

Just admit you didn’t read the series, like how can you make such a blunder 🥀

Oats place god trees on planets to absorb the life force on the planet, not the planet itself. This has been stated by atleast 10 different times across multiple mediums (shonen jump, Naruto website, manga and anime)

Boruto by his own omission says that he called these energies “chakra” cuz it’s easier to do so

Accuses me of not reading the series I reap when he doesn’t know that mind and soul are the same. Literally on the profile, I know you can’t read the series but atleast try to read the profiles

Here’s what the kanji says
  • 精神世界 (seishin sekai) = literally “mental-spiritual world”
Literally confirms that soul and mind are the same which is also reflected on our profiles. Also this space is created by two concessions intersecting one another. Please read, I’ll go to more detail down.

Once again proofing that you never touched a single chapter of Naruto. Chakra can be intangible or material. Naruto in the last is a perfect example of this, he coats himself in chakra and phases into hinata (pause). We have even more examples
Chakra inherently can be tangible and intangible. Also you would know this if you would look at the profiles, like what’s wrong with looking at them? Why are you avoiding them like the plague?

Wow so every instance of this is retcon, by what logic are you assuming this? You haven’t even read a single chapter of Naruto yet claim that it was retconned?

You can’t be real man, anyway here’s smth to write about

Defining Spiritual energy
Since the very beginning of Naruto chakra has been created from two energies, spiritual and physical energy. Physical energy is the energy produced by all the cells in one’s body, while spritual energy is more nuanced.

The kanji used to describe spritual energy is 精神エネルギー (seishin enerugī):
  • 精 (sei) = refined, pure, essence

  • 神 (shin) = spirit, mind, soul

  • 精神 (seishin) = spirit, mind, mentality, mental facilities
Here we can see that seishin can mean either mind and soul. However, this isn’t the intended fiction of this kanji as the kanji for both mind and soul are
  • Mind; 心
  • Soul; 魂
Kishimoto could have easily used the kanji 心 (mind) to explain spiritual energy but specifically chose 精神 (seishin). This is because Kishimoto intended for the soul and mind to be a single entity which is reflected in this kanji 精神, literally translated to mental-spiritual essence.

This isn’t a stretch either as we see countless examples of this starting

Mental Spaces
what’s a mental space in Naruto? Mental spaces are area manifested when two or more consciousness interect with one another allowing for telepathy, sharing of thoughts, memories, information or fight with their astral self.
  • Most recent example includes the death of kurama where he sacrificed his own life in exchange for Baryon Mode. This is shown to us by Kurama turning into mist and latter being reborn, explaining that even a tailed beasts mind, soul and body are destroyed they can be reborn a new
  • Outer path chains binds the victims souls which we see in the mental realm is binding their astral self
  • Kurama soul being sealed into Naruto via the reaper death seal, hence appearing his mental space
  • Kurama stated his gonna consume Naruto’s soul when he was about to absorb Naruto astral self
  • Dan possess Tsunade as a soul after using spirit transformation and meets her as a soul in her mindscape
  • Mind transmission jutsu
Proofing mind and soul are one of spiritual energy and Yin release wasn’t obvious enough

Susanoo
霊体化したチャクラを容器にした魔神の姿は、まさに圧巻。その猛る時は、眼前のあらゆる敵を滅ぼすまで、破壊の限りを尽くす!!

“The form of a fierce deity that uses spiritualized chakra as its vessel is truly overwhelming. When it rages, it exhausts every means of destruction until all enemies before its eyes are annihilated!!”

• 霊 (rei) = spirit, spiritual
• 体 (tai) = body, form
• 化 (ka) = transformation, becoming

So:

霊体 = “spirit body” / “spiritual body” / “spiritual form”
霊体化 = “spiritualization” / “becoming a spiritual body”

Tanya
jutsu Revolt of the Demon World (Makyou no Ran) causing many-mouthed, worm-like spirits made of chkara to emerge from the mouths of the Doki. The chakra of the spirits is entirely spritual energy.
  • “三体の妖鬼を操る 死の旋律!!”
    • “Manipulating three demon spirits — the melody of death!!”
Mind Transmission Jutsu (databook)

その精神、宙を飛び敵の身体を奪わん!!
“That spirit (seishin) flies through the air and seizes the enemy’s body!!”

Body text

自分の精神を放出して対象者にぶつけ、肉体を乗っ取る。成功すれば、瞬時に勝敗が決するほどの大技だ。

“One releases one’s own spirit (seishin) and strikes the target with it, taking over their body. If successful, it is a great technique capable of deciding victory or defeat in an instant.”

Limitation note
精神エネルギーを全て飛ばすため、射程距離や命中率はかなり限定されてしまう。

“Because all of one’s mental/spiritual energy (seishin) is sent out, range and accuracy become quite limited.”

Spiritual energy is consistently mentioned through this entire databook entry while the manga expands on this by saying
  • “JUST AS I THOUGHT...IT'S HER SIGNATURE SHINTENSHIN MOVE, TRANSFERRING HEART AND SOUL FROM ONE BODY TO ANOTHER!!”
And
  • ...SHINTENSHIN NO JUTSU - THE MIND TRANSFER TECHNIQUE – WHERE ALL OF YOUR PSYCHIC AND SPIRITUAL ENERGY IS LOOSED UPON YOUR ENEMY AND YOU USURP THE PSYCHE OF YOUR OPPONENT…
Once again affirming that mind and soul are one in the same and fall under the same term “spiritual energy”
Other soul stuff

Kurama
  • Kurama was stated to have gotten smaller after his soul was split in half.
    • We visibly see the soul of Kurama being ripped out of him as that's happening.
    • A chakra monster gets smaller as his soul is ripped in half.
  • We see Minato's and Kurama's souls linked together.
    • It's stated that the souls of the user and the caster will battle forever.
      • Which explains why Minato was able to get Nine-Tails Chakra Mode, which is gained by taking the chakra of Kurama.
Edo Tensei
Madara's Body: Soul starts to leave, but it goes right back into Madara's body.
Mei Terumi: Madara's chakra, which had started to separate from his body, is now clinging firmly to it.

We know these are souls because Dan flat out confirms that they're souls.
  • Dan: Souls ascending after being released from the Edo Tensei can be controlled with this Jutsu too.

Hagoromo/Indra/Asura
Hagoromo was able to return to the place of the living because his chakra was reunited.

Hagoromo is clearly dead, but he says that he has wandered throughout the world as chakra(he flat out says that he's dead).
  • He says that Naruto summoned his soul, so it's confirmation that Hagoromo as of that point is a soul. He is a soul that wanders as chakra, hmm...
    • His soul gave Naruto and Sasuke chakra, and was weakened after that.
    • When they sealed Kaguya, he got his chakra back.
He says that his son, Ashura, reincarnated into Naruto.
  • Reincarnation Definition
    • The belief that the soul, upon death of the body, comes back to earth in another body or form.
    • Rebirth of the soul in a new body.
    • A new incarnation or embodiment, as of a person.
Hagoromo says he sees his chakra clinging onto Naruto.

Momoshiki turned Kinshiki into a chakra fruit, which it stated to be his soul

Chakra dragon absorbs chakra from Shinobi, looks exactly the same as the souls pulled by human path

Too lazy to get the scans but you get the idea, this all could have been avoided if you just decided to read the profiles
Click to expand...
I'm gonna be honest I didn't read allat but I respect the effort
 
AlternativePrinciple said:
Stopped procrastinating, this will be last post

This would be true for say ninjutsu, but for raw chakra specifically that’s completely irrelevant

And where was I wrong? The physical energy acts as an amplifier, it doesn’t make an entirely new form of energy like you are suggesting? And once again chakra is a umbrella term for describing energy in the verse

Then explain why during hags time, spritual energy alone what’s called chakra? Once again a umbrella term, check out the new verse page for Naruto you will see that it too calls chakra a umbrella term


You are presupposing the very thing you need to prove: that chakra absorption grants informational transfer.

The Human Path and the Preta Path perform fundamentally different operations. Human Path is explicitly shown reading minds through direct contact and accessing information from the target. This is the ability’s stated function and is consistently demonstrated throughout the series.

By contrast, the Preta Path’s demonstrated function is merely chakra absorption. It absorbs chakra to drain opponents and nullify techniques. At no point is it stated or shown to acquire memories, thoughts, knowledge, skills, or any other informational content from the chakra it absorbs.

Even if chakra, souls, and minds are treated as equivalent, it does not follow that absorbing chakra grants access to the information contained within it. That is an additional premise that requires evidence.

In fact, Naruto provides examples suggesting the opposite. The chakra fruit and similar absorption methods require absorbing an individual’s entirety in order to obtain their memories, genetics, abilities, and accumulated experiences. This indicates that acquiring information is a distinct process from merely absorbing chakra reserves.

Therefore the comparison to Human Path fails. Human Path’s ability is explicitly information extraction, whereas Preta Path’s ability is chakra absorption.

Ignorance is bliss 😭

You are just proofing that you never touched a single page of Naruto. Anyways here’s some easy to understand examples
  • Madara soul level his Edo Body, Mei says his chakra clings to his body
  • Hagoromo is called a soul cuz, you know his dead. Chakra thought body

Just admit you didn’t read the series, like how can you make such a blunder 🥀

Oats place god trees on planets to absorb the life force on the planet, not the planet itself. This has been stated by atleast 10 different times across multiple mediums (shonen jump, Naruto website, manga and anime)

Boruto by his own omission says that he called these energies “chakra” cuz it’s easier to do so

Accuses me of not reading the series I reap when he doesn’t know that mind and soul are the same. Literally on the profile, I know you can’t read the series but atleast try to read the profiles

Here’s what the kanji says
  • 精神世界 (seishin sekai) = literally “mental-spiritual world”
Literally confirms that soul and mind are the same which is also reflected on our profiles. Also this space is created by two concessions intersecting one another. Please read, I’ll go to more detail down.

Once again proofing that you never touched a single chapter of Naruto. Chakra can be intangible or material. Naruto in the last is a perfect example of this, he coats himself in chakra and phases into hinata (pause). We have even more examples
Chakra inherently can be tangible and intangible. Also you would know this if you would look at the profiles, like what’s wrong with looking at them? Why are you avoiding them like the plague?

Wow so every instance of this is retcon, by what logic are you assuming this? You haven’t even read a single chapter of Naruto yet claim that it was retconned?

You can’t be real man, anyway here’s smth to write about

Defining Spiritual energy
Since the very beginning of Naruto chakra has been created from two energies, spiritual and physical energy. Physical energy is the energy produced by all the cells in one’s body, while spritual energy is more nuanced.

The kanji used to describe spritual energy is 精神エネルギー (seishin enerugī):
  • 精 (sei) = refined, pure, essence

  • 神 (shin) = spirit, mind, soul

  • 精神 (seishin) = spirit, mind, mentality, mental facilities
Here we can see that seishin can mean either mind and soul. However, this isn’t the intended fiction of this kanji as the kanji for both mind and soul are
  • Mind; 心
  • Soul; 魂
Kishimoto could have easily used the kanji 心 (mind) to explain spiritual energy but specifically chose 精神 (seishin). This is because Kishimoto intended for the soul and mind to be a single entity which is reflected in this kanji 精神, literally translated to mental-spiritual essence.

This isn’t a stretch either as we see countless examples of this starting

Mental Spaces
what’s a mental space in Naruto? Mental spaces are area manifested when two or more consciousness interect with one another allowing for telepathy, sharing of thoughts, memories, information or fight with their astral self.
  • Most recent example includes the death of kurama where he sacrificed his own life in exchange for Baryon Mode. This is shown to us by Kurama turning into mist and latter being reborn, explaining that even a tailed beasts mind, soul and body are destroyed they can be reborn a new
  • Outer path chains binds the victims souls which we see in the mental realm is binding their astral self
  • Kurama soul being sealed into Naruto via the reaper death seal, hence appearing his mental space
  • Kurama stated his gonna consume Naruto’s soul when he was about to absorb Naruto astral self
  • Dan possess Tsunade as a soul after using spirit transformation and meets her as a soul in her mindscape
  • Mind transmission jutsu
Proofing mind and soul are one of spiritual energy and Yin release wasn’t obvious enough

Susanoo
霊体化したチャクラを容器にした魔神の姿は、まさに圧巻。その猛る時は、眼前のあらゆる敵を滅ぼすまで、破壊の限りを尽くす!!

“The form of a fierce deity that uses spiritualized chakra as its vessel is truly overwhelming. When it rages, it exhausts every means of destruction until all enemies before its eyes are annihilated!!”

• 霊 (rei) = spirit, spiritual
• 体 (tai) = body, form
• 化 (ka) = transformation, becoming

So:

霊体 = “spirit body” / “spiritual body” / “spiritual form”
霊体化 = “spiritualization” / “becoming a spiritual body”

Tanya
jutsu Revolt of the Demon World (Makyou no Ran) causing many-mouthed, worm-like spirits made of chkara to emerge from the mouths of the Doki. The chakra of the spirits is entirely spritual energy.
  • “三体の妖鬼を操る 死の旋律!!”
    • “Manipulating three demon spirits — the melody of death!!”
Mind Transmission Jutsu (databook)

その精神、宙を飛び敵の身体を奪わん!!
“That spirit (seishin) flies through the air and seizes the enemy’s body!!”

Body text

自分の精神を放出して対象者にぶつけ、肉体を乗っ取る。成功すれば、瞬時に勝敗が決するほどの大技だ。

“One releases one’s own spirit (seishin) and strikes the target with it, taking over their body. If successful, it is a great technique capable of deciding victory or defeat in an instant.”

Limitation note
精神エネルギーを全て飛ばすため、射程距離や命中率はかなり限定されてしまう。

“Because all of one’s mental/spiritual energy (seishin) is sent out, range and accuracy become quite limited.”

Spiritual energy is consistently mentioned through this entire databook entry while the manga expands on this by saying
  • “JUST AS I THOUGHT...IT'S HER SIGNATURE SHINTENSHIN MOVE, TRANSFERRING HEART AND SOUL FROM ONE BODY TO ANOTHER!!”
And
  • ...SHINTENSHIN NO JUTSU - THE MIND TRANSFER TECHNIQUE – WHERE ALL OF YOUR PSYCHIC AND SPIRITUAL ENERGY IS LOOSED UPON YOUR ENEMY AND YOU USURP THE PSYCHE OF YOUR OPPONENT…
Once again affirming that mind and soul are one in the same and fall under the same term “spiritual energy”
Other soul stuff

Kurama
  • Kurama was stated to have gotten smaller after his soul was split in half.
    • We visibly see the soul of Kurama being ripped out of him as that's happening.
    • A chakra monster gets smaller as his soul is ripped in half.
  • We see Minato's and Kurama's souls linked together.
    • It's stated that the souls of the user and the caster will battle forever.
      • Which explains why Minato was able to get Nine-Tails Chakra Mode, which is gained by taking the chakra of Kurama.
Edo Tensei
Madara's Body: Soul starts to leave, but it goes right back into Madara's body.
Mei Terumi: Madara's chakra, which had started to separate from his body, is now clinging firmly to it.

We know these are souls because Dan flat out confirms that they're souls.
  • Dan: Souls ascending after being released from the Edo Tensei can be controlled with this Jutsu too.

Hagoromo/Indra/Asura
Hagoromo was able to return to the place of the living because his chakra was reunited.

Hagoromo is clearly dead, but he says that he has wandered throughout the world as chakra(he flat out says that he's dead).
  • He says that Naruto summoned his soul, so it's confirmation that Hagoromo as of that point is a soul. He is a soul that wanders as chakra, hmm...
    • His soul gave Naruto and Sasuke chakra, and was weakened after that.
    • When they sealed Kaguya, he got his chakra back.
He says that his son, Ashura, reincarnated into Naruto.
  • Reincarnation Definition
    • The belief that the soul, upon death of the body, comes back to earth in another body or form.
    • Rebirth of the soul in a new body.
    • A new incarnation or embodiment, as of a person.
Hagoromo says he sees his chakra clinging onto Naruto.

Momoshiki turned Kinshiki into a chakra fruit, which it stated to be his soul

Chakra dragon absorbs chakra from Shinobi, looks exactly the same as the souls pulled by human path

Too lazy to get the scans but you get the idea, this all could have been avoided if you just decided to read the profiles
Click to expand...
No way bruh just list a whole CRT 🥀
 
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