• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Eternatus ain't 2-A and neither are the rest of the mons

Arceus0x

Arceus0x

Messages
20,460
Reaction score
16,271
vsbattles.com

Wiki Vandalism Reports

The user Dunkeeni has altered One-Eye's tier and, last year, altered Xeno Son Goku's page.
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

As shown in this dicussion, the upgrade was made through a 2022 thread that mentioned in passing that Leon should be 2-B, possibly 2-A before the canon split hit and ruined everything.

There's some issues with this.

See, this scaling comes from the trained rental pokemon that can fight the dynamax Creation Trio.

Issue is, we are assuming that Leon knows about how powerful they are when saying that Eternatus is "the strongest pokemon", something he only mentions during the champion fight, about the base form of Eternatus and even further - shouldn't be treated as fully reliable as for all we know it was just a hyperbole. I mean, the fact that Zacian and Zamazenta whooped it already puts the scaling under question.

Then there's the further issues, specifically going with the idea that rental pokemon can be used for proper scaling. They can fight every legendary mentioned here. Unless we assume that the rental pokemon stomp them, which has no evidence and wouldn't work especially considering the clearly intentional level difference, this would mean that all legendaries can fight each other.

As you can imagine, this would make every legendary Pokemon 2-B, possibly 2-A. I believe it is very much a ridiculous notion when there's very clear differences in power. I can understand scaling some trainers who have directly fough the CT but this isn't it. It is a massive outlier and a case of improbable chain scaling.

So there's really only 2 options to go with

1. We nerf Zacian, Zamazenta and Eternatus back to their original stats.
2. We upgrade every legendary to 2-B, possibly 2-A.
 
Arceus0x said:
So there's really only 2 options to go with

1. We nerf Zacian, Zamazenta and Eternatus back to their original stats.
2. We upgrade every legendary to 2-B, possibly 2-A.
Click to expand...
is there anything in the verse that contradicts option 2?
 
Bernkastelll said:
is there anything in the verse that contradicts option 2?
Click to expand...
The sheer inconsistency of the portrayal to begin with. There's one thing that's consistent about Pokemon and that is the fact that it is inconsistent. From the beginning of this verse's history on vsbw you could basically chainscale anyone to Arceus. Trainer power is especially inconsistent as you can go from being the champion to being 20 levels below a random nobody trainer (think Black Tower for example). As you can imagine that is a bit silly.
If people actually do agree with scaling literally every legendary to the CT then I could provide arguments for it as well.
 
This is why people need to understand different legendary Pokemon of the same species in the same continuity can have different power levels...
 
Arceus0x said:
2. We upgrade every legendary to 2-B, possibly 2-A.
Click to expand...
Due to chain scaling, wouldn't this mean that legit all Pokémon scale to it? (The verse inconsistent chain scaling is peak)

Like, actually, we can barely get 50 episodes before a legendary gets beat by a normal pokemon, if you want I can even list some examples...
 
Dark_Soul20189 said:
Due to chain scaling, wouldn't this mean that legit all Pokémon scale to it? (The verse inconsistent chain scaling is peak)

Like, actually, we can barely get 50 episodes before a legendary gets beat by a normal pokemon, if you want I can even list some examples...
Click to expand...
Nah only Trained Pokemon count. It is because of trained pokemon that we're in this predicament in the first place.
 
I was never a huge fan of the rental Pokemon scaling, so I lean in favor of Option 1, but I would like to see if there’s any good arguments in favor of keeping it.
 
LordTracer said:
I was never a huge fan of the rental Pokemon scaling, so I lean in favor of Option 1, but I would like to see if there’s any good arguments in favor of keeping it.
Click to expand...
I mean,
-Hoopa movie does have everyone fight everyone
-Since canon split is no longer legit in the anime you can scale Lugia, Ho-oh, Zapdos, Suicune, Mew, Mewtwo to Eternamax Eternatus, who in turn would scale above the Tapus and base Necrozma ect. All that ends up backscaling to Cynthia's feat of parrying Palkia's attack which is 2-B, likely 2-A.
-In the manga most legendaries can fight each other, basically all gen 4 legendaries including darkrai, cresselia, regigas, the lake trio ect. have all clashed with Dialga, Palkia and Giratina.
-You fight basically every gen 4 as well as the gen 5 genies after fighting Origin Palkia/Dialga and technically they're considered post-game bosses and hard to catch opponents
-50% Zygarde and Rayquaza are relative in power in Horizons anime and can all fight against the other members of the hero team which includes a galarian Moltres and Gouging Fire. Gouging Fire gives the main characters as much trouble as the real Entei.
I could maybe keep going but basically all legendaries have always fought each other or scaled to someone who did. It is up to the scalers here to decide whether its bs or not. I personally think that's a bit too much for all legendaries. Others don't. Either way I win cause I either leave everything in peace as it should've been or I go on a psychotic rampage and upgrade every legendary to 2-B, likely 2-A to my enjoyment.
 
Semi-related question, does USUM Cyrus ever mention using the creation trio members to destroy everything in the Japanese text? That was his plan in the original games of course, but he only ever mentioned creating a "perfect world without spirit" in USUM, and if he had achieved his DPPt goal then in theory a concept overarching across the entire verse, such as spirit, should not exist in the USUM world.
 
GyroNutz said:
Semi-related question, does USUM Cyrus ever mention using the creation trio members to destroy everything in the Japanese text? That was his plan in the original games of course, but he only ever mentioned creating a "perfect world without spirit" in USUM, and if he had achieved his DPPt goal then in theory a concept overarching across the entire verse, such as spirit, should not exist in the USUM world.
Click to expand...
how is this even semi-related?
 
GyroNutz said:
Semi-related question, does USUM Cyrus ever mention using the creation trio members to destroy everything in the Japanese text? That was his plan in the original games of course, but he only ever mentioned creating a "perfect world without spirit" in USUM, and if he had achieved his DPPt goal then in theory a concept overarching across the entire verse, such as spirit, should not exist in the USUM world.
Click to expand...
He can destroy Spirit in just 1 universe. That was his goal in diamond and pearl, it was never a multiversal thing
 
Regarding that Hoopa movie, the obvious example is Lugia, since that Lugia fought Hoopa. Meanwhile the Lugia in the movie 2000 was evenly matched with Zapdos, Moltres, and Articuno in a 3v1. Although Lugia was holding back on them the whole time.

The ways to reconcile this are:

Option 1: Lugia scales to Hoopa, the legendary bird trio scales to Lugia in a 3v1, giving each a third of that big old pie. Their own feats are uber casual (passive and/or accidental even while trying not to, in fact), so it's not exactly contrary to their existing lore. In short: all legendary birds scale to Hoopa.

Option 2: Treat the Lugia from the Hoopa movie as way stronger than the one from 2000. Maybe the 2000 one was level 40 with no EV's or IV's while the Hoopa movie one was level 100 with maxed EV's and IV's, who knows. In short: Hoopa movie Lugia is treated as separate from all the other legendary birds, a uniquely tough specimen.
 
Last edited:
Random-Helper323 said:
Regarding that Hoopa movie, the obvious example is Lugia, since that Lugia fought Hoopa. Meanwhile the Lugia in the movie 2000 was evenly matched with Zapdos, Moltres, and Articuno in a 3v1. Although Lugia was holding back on them the whole time.

The ways to reconcile this are:

Option 1: Lugia scales to Hoopa, the legendary bird trio scales to Lugia in a 3v1, giving each a third of that big old pie. Their own feats are uber casual (passive and/or accidental even while trying not to, in fact), so it's not exactly contrary to their existing lore.

Option 2: Treat the Lugia from the Hoopa movie as way stronger than the one from 2000. Maybe the 2000 one was level 40 with no EV's or IV's while the Hoopa movie one was level 100 with maxed EV's and IV's, who knows.
Click to expand...
Hilariously enough considering Lugia whooped Ash's ass at the end of Journeys it means its consistent
 
Random-Helper323 said:
Regarding that Hoopa movie, the obvious example is Lugia, since that Lugia fought Hoopa. Meanwhile the Lugia in the movie 2000 was evenly matched with Zapdos, Moltres, and Articuno in a 3v1. Although Lugia was holding back on them the whole time.

The ways to reconcile this are:

Option 1: Lugia scales to Hoopa, the legendary bird trio scales to Lugia in a 3v1, giving each a third of that big old pie. Their own feats are uber casual (passive and/or accidental even while trying not to, in fact), so it's not exactly contrary to their existing lore. In short: all legendary birds scale to Hoopa.

Option 2: Treat the Lugia from the Hoopa movie as way stronger than the one from 2000. Maybe the 2000 one was level 40 with no EV's or IV's while the Hoopa movie one was level 100 with maxed EV's and IV's, who knows. In short: Hoopa movie Lugia is treated as separate from all the other legendary birds, a uniquely tough specimen.
Click to expand...
Option 2 makes sense, but I feel like that should just be a thing for legendaries in general
 
GyroNutz said:
I don't like creation trio chain-scaling in general
Click to expand...
me neither. I think the avatar forms should have a varies rating in the first place since they're, y'know, avatars of the real thing with varying levels and stats. Sadly whenever I've brought up the idea of a varies rating for avatars I've been shot down.
 
I do think I can rescale some mons later on without the tier 2 stuff. There's solid scaling you can find in many a place.
 
Hypertornado099 said:
He can destroy Spirit in just 1 universe. That was his goal in diamond and pearl, it was never a multiversal thing
Click to expand...
Btw this isn’t accurate. He can “destroy” spirit by destroying all living things in a universe, therefore nothing exists that possesses spirit, or by creating a world without said living things such that he’s the only one with spirit (which he’d likely delude himself into thinking he doesn’t have). It’s likely why he seemed satisfied about being taken alone into the Distortion World in that generations episode. Anyway, that aside, Cyrus explicitly states that he plans to bring about the end of all things, which includes all other universes because Cyrus is aware of the worlds that Palkia/Dialga created.

Arceus0x said:
me neither. I think the avatar forms should have a varies rating in the first place since they're, y'know, avatars of the real thing with varying levels and stats. Sadly whenever I've brought up the idea of a varies rating for avatars I've been shot down.
Click to expand...
I don’t 100% disagree with this, but I do think we should avoid using Varies ratings without a clear mechanism as to how that power varies. Also, even the weakest version of Dialga’s avatar should still be responsible for maintaining time with its heartbeat. More times than not it’s just plot reasons, whether that’s the creation trio “testing” the player’s resolve or Hoopa movie stupidity
 
GyroNutz said:
I don’t 100% disagree with this, but I do think we should avoid using Varies ratings without a clear mechanism as to how that power varies. Also, even the weakest version of Dialga’s avatar should still be responsible for maintaining time with its heartbeat. More times than not it’s just plot reasons, whether that’s the creation trio “testing” the player’s resolve or Hoopa movie stupidity
Click to expand...
I think the fact that they can appear at entirely different levels is already an example of a variation.
In PLA Dialga is lvl65
In Diamond - lvl47
In USUM - lvl67 at Cyrus' side

So we went from 65 to 47 to 67. One can try and say that levels are subjective...and that's true kinda? But even then they have some rules set like the fact that you learn certain moves only at a certain point. Dialga knows different moves too.
Then there's arceus recreating Palkia and Dialga in his world after we've fought him.

So there's a clear variability in levels and levels are power. By lvl 30 in Diamond we've not shown much more than basic trainer strength and by lvl 50 we're already dueling a time god. Clearly a difference here so why not with CT or even other legendaries since those are an actual species?
 
Arceus0x said:
I think the fact that they can appear at entirely different levels is already an example of a variation.
In PLA Dialga is lvl65
In Diamond - lvl47
In USUM - lvl67 at Cyrus' side

So we went from 65 to 47 to 67. One can try and say that levels are subjective...and that's true kinda? But even then they have some rules set like the fact that you learn certain moves only at a certain point. Dialga knows different moves too.
Then there's arceus recreating Palkia and Dialga in his world after we've fought him.

So there's a clear variability in levels and levels are power. By lvl 30 in Diamond we've not shown much more than basic trainer strength and by lvl 50 we're already dueling a time god. Clearly a difference here so why not with CT or even other legendaries since those are an actual species?
Click to expand...
Levels are power in a very relative and game-mechanicsy perspective. Lance’s elite four team in RBY is higher level than his champion team in GSC for instance. Random trainers can whip out level 60+ Pokémon long after you beat the level 50 legendaries. Hell, the Arceus event brings a level 1 creation trio member into existence, which are still implied to be on the level of the other avatars (e.g. saying Palkia has mastery over space and dimensions). And idek how this variability could be judged outside of a game context, nor would it matter here anyway since the 2-B/2-A creation trio feats come from level 47 Dialga or Palkia
 
GyroNutz said:
Levels are power in a very relative and game-mechanicsy perspective. Lance’s elite four team in RBY is higher level than his champion team in GSC for instance. Random trainers can whip out level 60+ Pokémon long after you beat the level 50 legendaries. Hell, the Arceus event brings a level 1 creation trio member into existence, which are still implied to be on the level of the other avatars (e.g. saying Palkia has mastery over space and dimensions). And idek how this variability could be judged outside of a game context, nor would it matter here anyway since the 2-B/2-A creation trio feats come from level 47 Dialga or Palkia
Click to expand...
Like I said, whilst they are relative, it is still clearly a type of variation in power. They're different avatars and them having different power levels shouldn't be a stretch. Like, think about it for a moment - Dialga and Palkia can literally create a fully new universe along with a change in conceptual structure. Do you really think they can't just make an avatar that is higher or lower in power?
 
Random-Helper323 said:
Regarding that Hoopa movie, the obvious example is Lugia, since that Lugia fought Hoopa. Meanwhile the Lugia in the movie 2000 was evenly matched with Zapdos, Moltres, and Articuno in a 3v1. Although Lugia was holding back on them the whole time.

The ways to reconcile this are:

Option 1: Lugia scales to Hoopa, the legendary bird trio scales to Lugia in a 3v1, giving each a third of that big old pie. Their own feats are uber casual (passive and/or accidental even while trying not to, in fact), so it's not exactly contrary to their existing lore. In short: all legendary birds scale to Hoopa.

Option 2: Treat the Lugia from the Hoopa movie as way stronger than the one from 2000. Maybe the 2000 one was level 40 with no EV's or IV's while the Hoopa movie one was level 100 with maxed EV's and IV's, who knows. In short: Hoopa movie Lugia is treated as separate from all the other legendary birds, a uniquely tough specimen.
Click to expand...
it could be done like Digimon does it, just adding an "up to [Certain Tier] for stronger members of the species", it doesn't need to be a varies rating for it to be reconciled
 
GyroNutz said:
Btw this isn’t accurate. He can “destroy” spirit by destroying all living things in a universe, therefore nothing exists that possesses spirit, or by creating a world without said living things such that he’s the only one with spirit (which he’d likely delude himself into thinking he doesn’t have).
Click to expand...
That's literally the same exact thing dude

GyroNutz said:
Anyway, that aside, Cyrus explicitly states that he plans to bring about the end of all things, which includes all other universes because Cyrus is aware of the worlds that Palkia/Dialga created.
Click to expand...
This sounds like an interpretation only a powerscaler would have. If that were the case, it would mean not every universe is created by Palkia and Dialga, or "all things" doesn't include other universes. Cyrus has never mentioned a multiverse or the destruction of other parallel universes. The concept of other parallel worlds isn't even mentioned very often in the games. I know you're gonna mention the Palkia parallel dimensions statement but that doesn't really change or affect what I said
 
Omegabronic said:
it could be done like Digimon does it, just adding an "up to [Certain Tier] for stronger members of the species", it doesn't need to be a varies rating for it to be reconciled
Click to expand...
It could work. Varies tier usually seems like a copout and cheap way out of this stuff to me.

It could make sense, given the Pokémon world literally has both an in-game levelling system which is referenced in non-game material, and canon examples of different members of the same species provably having vastly different strength levels.
 
Arceus0x said:
I mean,
-Hoopa movie does have everyone fight everyone
-Since canon split is no longer legit in the anime you can scale Lugia, Ho-oh, Zapdos, Suicune, Mew, Mewtwo to Eternamax Eternatus, who in turn would scale above the Tapus and base Necrozma ect. All that ends up backscaling to Cynthia's feat of parrying Palkia's attack which is 2-B, likely 2-A.
-In the manga most legendaries can fight each other, basically all gen 4 legendaries including darkrai, cresselia, regigas, the lake trio ect. have all clashed with Dialga, Palkia and Giratina.
-You fight basically every gen 4 as well as the gen 5 genies after fighting Origin Palkia/Dialga and technically they're considered post-game bosses and hard to catch opponents
-50% Zygarde and Rayquaza are relative in power in Horizons anime and can all fight against the other members of the hero team which includes a galarian Moltres and Gouging Fire. Gouging Fire gives the main characters as much trouble as the real Entei.
I could maybe keep going but basically all legendaries have always fought each other or scaled to someone who did. It is up to the scalers here to decide whether its bs or not. I personally think that's a bit too much for all legendaries. Others don't. Either way I win cause I either leave everything in peace as it should've been or I go on a psychotic rampage and upgrade every legendary to 2-B, likely 2-A to my enjoyment.
Click to expand...
question why eternatux scales over Necrozma or where that scale comes from when it wasn't really damaged by any character and the only other feat close to that without taking into account is cyntia but that seems like a huge atypical case considering trios Unova trio Forces of Nature dominated it and this is inferior to kyuren zekron and Reshiran who had a big problem performing planetary feat
 
OrangeFR said:
How exactly?
Click to expand...
Technically Rayquaza couldn't destroy the delta meteor without the mega evolution. Also technically, Deoxys' AP scales to the delta meteor because he's the one who literally made it fly that fast towards earth.
 
Either way delta meteor thing is less about AP and more about DC... I think.
 
Bernkastelll said:
is there anything in the verse that contradicts option 2?
Click to expand...
The fact that anything at all gets to scale to the creators of existence, much less everything, being moronic. I don’t think any of our scaling chains that have anything other than the creation and emotion trio being 2-A makes any sense at all, much less these guys. I really hope this thread can nuke literally every single 2-A chain because they are all nonsense. The creation trio literally made everything in all of existence past, present, and future combined, with no way to grow in cosmic strength in the series at all, yet I am supposed to believe something from that existence can fight them despite the fact the gods made them + everything else and all their points in time ad infinitum
 
Keeweed said:
The fact that anything at all gets to scale to the creators of existence, much less everything, being moronic. I don’t think any of our scaling chains that have anything other than the creation and emotion trio being 2-A makes any sense at all, much less these guys. I really hope this thread can nuke literally every single 2-A chain because they are all nonsense. The creation trio literally made everything in all of existence past, present, and future combined, with no way to grow in cosmic strength in the series at all, yet I am supposed to believe something from that existence can fight them despite the fact the gods made them + everything else and all their points in time ad infinitum
Click to expand...
Well I just think they should just have High 3-A to 2-B, possibly 2-A for their avatars since they vary in power.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Pointee
Sword and Shield vs Ruby and Sapphire (Pokemon) (Zacian/Zamazenta vs Groudon and Kyogre)
Replies
2
Views
1K
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
ProfessorKukui4Life
  • Locked
Pokemon: Creation Trio (& Others) Tier 1 Upgrade (ACCEPTED)
2 3 4
Replies
149
Views
13K
Random-Helper323
Random-Helper323
ProfessorKukui4Life
Pokemon: Mew (And others) Upgrade
Replies
8
Views
1K
Mbpoops
Mbpoops
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
Pokemon GO addi-Seans
Replies
28
Views
3K
Random-Helper323
Random-Helper323
Arceus0x
  • Locked
Pokemon: Infinity and gimmicks
2
Replies
63
Views
4K
Arceus0x
Arceus0x
Back
Top