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Monkey King Doesn't Exist But Still Exists.

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Megaraptor149

Megaraptor149

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Continuation of Previous Thread.

Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 3 & Aspect Types 1, 2, 3 & Likely 4) for Mori Dan.

Due to his Omnipresence, he exists within all creation as well as its dualities. It also includes the duality of emptiness, (and Wuchi or Wuji. In Chinese philosophy, Wuji is the state of undifferentiated and limitless potential, often associated with the concept of the ultimate void or emptiness from which all things arise. However, it is also irrelevant if it brings up something philosophical directly because it is not explained in more depth in the fiction) where at simultaneously he is also within all creation and its existence.

This also includes his soul (since Mori reached Nirvana, he has existed as a spiritual being) and mind, as well as his the Core Element, which contains fundamental aspects of information such as biology, genetic code, mind and soul, as well as that represent greater aspects of reality.
 
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Yeolban said:
what does all that mean :3
Click to expand...
vsbattles.fandom.com

Nonexistent Physiology

Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of one's existence, to paradoxically 'exist,' yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence.' While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Maitreya said:
You really should’ve put the scans in the CRT Brody, it’s just better format to do it when making an upgrade thread.

Anyways, this is the scan of it being stated Mori becomes the world and the dualities that coincide with reality.

Here’s the scan showing other dualities such as Taichi and Wuchi along with emptiness and annihilation.
Click to expand...
In previous CRT, actually Mori becomes the world is not reason why he got AE1, it's because his Omnipresence when reaches Nirvana.
 
I agree with this.
It pretty obvious to me.

(But when I look at the blog where the "fundamental information" in the verse is explained, although I have some problems with the validity of information type 2, I don't find it appropriate to talk about it in this thread.)
 
CodeCCLL said:
I agree with this.
It pretty obvious to me.

(But when I look at the blog where the "fundamental information" in the verse is explained, although I have some problems with the validity of information type 2, I don't find it appropriate to talk about it in this thread.)
Click to expand...
Yeah that why rated as "Likely Type 2"
 
DavidTPPM said:
I'm a bit confused. Can you please drop the scan used for that? I assumed the "they became the world" one was used for that
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It's because his Omnipresence which he also embodies its dualities. And Elizhaa quoted this.

"I would say add Mori Abstract Existence type 1 from his omnipresence evidence in last key, like from reaching nirvana explain in chapter 568; Mujin's case is weird, after 562 like in Chapters 563 and 564; they are fighting in the earth in the previous location of the tournament. They become the world, which doesn't seem literal."
 
Nonexistent physiology, I think it is nature type 2 not type 3. Type 2 is more or less nonduality regarding nonexistence, from DontTalkDT's statement; the nirvana key seems it would qualify for nonduality because on the justifications.

On type 2, since it looks accepted that concept are valid, I think the type is valid.

On type 5, based on this text on Mujin’s page: Likely Fate Manipulation & Causality Manipulation (Devoured Tathagata and was given all of his powers as a result, who could control the Karmic cycle of fate and causality[17])

Since there is Karmic cycle, it looks like it can be valid under type 5.

The rest are fine. It could be a good idea to get @Sir_Ovens input.
 
Elizhaa said:
Nonexistent physiology, I think it is nature type 2 not type 3. Type 2 is more or less nonduality regarding nonexistence, from DontTalkDT's statement; the nirvana key seems it would qualify for nonduality because on the justifications.

On type 2, since it looks accepted that concept are valid, I think the type is valid.

On type 5, based on this text on Mujin’s page: Likely Fate Manipulation & Causality Manipulation (Devoured Tathagata and was given all of his powers as a result, who could control the Karmic cycle of fate and causality[17])

Since there is Karmic cycle, it looks like it can be valid under type 5.

The rest are fine. It could be a good idea to get @Sir_Ovens input.
Click to expand...
Okey, so Aspect All Types seems fine for me too. But Nature Type 2, i still don't understand. Isn't he both (existence and nonexistence) simultaneously due to the fact that he embodies both as Omnipresence rather than neither?

Talk about Nonduality; if it's accepted, he gets Nature Type 1 and Aspect Type 1 (although it'd also grant him NEP2 and Immortality Type 5) because only as many dualities exist as mentioned, or maybe Type 2? Since we follow the real-life term, Yin and Yang represent all duality iirc. But I didn't think too much about it, but if it's accepted from now on, there's no harm in discussing it. Even though I'm still skeptical about it, Mori becomes the duality itself and doesn’t exist as a qualitative superiority to it if follow his justification on Nirvana Key in his profile.
 
Megaraptor149 said:
Okey, so Aspect All Types seems fine for me too. But Nature Type 2, i still don't understand. Isn't he both (existence and nonexistence) simultaneously due to the fact that he embodies both as Omnipresence rather than neither?

Talk about Nonduality; if it's accepted, he gets Nature Type 1 and Aspect Type 1 (although it'd also grant him NEP2 and Immortality Type 5) because only as many dualities exist as mentioned, or maybe Type 2? Since we follow the real-life term, Yin and Yang represent all duality iirc. But I didn't think too much about it, but if it's accepted from now on, there's no harm in discussing it. Even though I'm still skeptical about it, Mori becomes the duality itself and doesn’t exist as a qualitative superiority to it if follow his justification on Nirvana Key in his profile.
Click to expand...
And again, if Nonduality accepted. Should his AE1 still remain in his profile? Cuz it's proof that he still unbound by it's dualities because he embodies its.
 
Alright, in regards to non-duality, since it’s defined as being outside and controlling of the dual systems, this can be demonstrated with Mori via his ascension into Nirvana. Which is a plane of existence that’s outside and oversees all of creation, totally free from all laws of nature. And a plane I’m which all physical ties to the real world have to be severed in order to reach.


Translation:
As I said before
This is the so-called heaven. A place where others reach Nirvana, where all the universe and
Can rule over all things
There is. Break free from physical bondage and enter the realm of complete God.

And, another thing that makes it concrete that Mori exists outside of the dual system that governs reality is the fact that he straight up broke out of the karmic cycle and then gained control over Karma itself. Karma being described in the series as:

In-Collage-20230714-130153304.jpg


So yeah I think there is supplementing material that shows nonduality may be applicable for Nirvana Mori.
 
Maitreya said:
Alright, in regards to non-duality, since it’s defined as being outside and controlling of the dual systems, this can be demonstrated with Mori via his ascension into Nirvana. Which is a plane of existence that’s outside and oversees all of creation, totally free from all laws of nature. And a plane I’m which all physical ties to the real world have to be severed in order to reach.


Translation:
As I said before
This is the so-called heaven. A place where others reach Nirvana, where all the universe and
Can rule over all things
There is. Break free from physical bondage and enter the realm of complete God.

And, another thing that makes it concrete that Mori exists outside of the dual system that governs reality is the fact that he straight up broke out of the karmic cycle and then gained control over Karma itself. Karma being described in the series as:

In-Collage-20230714-130153304.jpg


So yeah I think there is supplementing material that shows nonduality may be applicable for Nirvana Mori.
Click to expand...
Seems reasonable.

But should his AE1 still remain as my question above?
Megaraptor149 said:
And again, if Nonduality accepted. Should his AE1 still remain in his profile? Cuz it's proof that he still unbound by it's dualities because he embodies its.
Click to expand...
 
Elizhaa said:
Nonexistent physiology, I think it is nature type 2 not type 3. Type 2 is more or less nonduality regarding nonexistence, from DontTalkDT's statement; the nirvana key seems it would qualify for nonduality because on the justifications.

On type 2, since it looks accepted that concept are valid, I think the type is valid.

On type 5, based on this text on Mujin’s page: Likely Fate Manipulation & Causality Manipulation (Devoured Tathagata and was given all of his powers as a result, who could control the Karmic cycle of fate and causality[17])

Since there is Karmic cycle, it looks like it can be valid under type 5.
Click to expand...
According to the scans in the OP, this is obviously NEP Nature Type 3, definitely not Type 2. For Type 2, Mori must exist as a deeper nothingness, lacking even the duality of existence and non-existence. There isn't any proof that Mori is lack of dualities and can resist their effects. Mori literally becomes dualities themselves. Since he has become a combination of many dualities such as existence and non-existence, he has a paradoxical existence in which opposites coexist. This is textbook NEP Nature Type 3.

Aspect Type 2 should be valid due to Mori's essence. For Aspect Type 5, this would be more Acausality Type 4. For Type 5, as in other aspects, characters must lack another fundamental element that makes up their existence. (For example; Plot, History and Narrative, Attributes and Laws etc.)
 
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CodeCCLL said:
According to the scans in the OP, this is obviously NEP Nature Type 3, definitely not Type 2. For Type 2, Mori must exist as a deeper nothingness, lacking even the duality of existence and non-existence. There isn't any proof that Mori is lack of dualities and can resist their effects. Mori literally becomes dualities themselves. Since he has become a combination of many dualities such as existence and non-existence, he has a paradoxical existence in which opposites coexist. This is textbook NEP Nature Type 3.

Aspect Type 2 should be valid due to Mori's essence. For Aspect Type 5, this would be more Acausality Type 4. For Type 5, as in other aspects, characters must lack another fundamental element that makes up their existence. (For example; Plot, History and Narrative, Attributes and Laws etc.)
Click to expand...
It sounds like type 2. Nonduality is like something that is not true, not false, sometimes neither true nor false, sometimes both true and false, or more complex truth states like from logic to the related dualities; nonduality is basically of the form of not being just true (let say 1) or false (let say 0) regarding the logical dualities, for short.

In this case, type 2 is just nonduality to nonexistence, like DontTalkDT said in my past reply. Applying the logic, let’s just focus on existence and nonexistence in the verse; Nirvana seems to encompass both, so it is just not existence, not nonexistence, from the complexity of the wuji. It looks to encompass multiple truth states.

Type 3 is like characters that are physically existent but have statements or the like that show they are nonexistent; it is rare since it seems like most are akin to antifeats since these characters are usually physically interactable.

  • Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. These characters often have some form of Nonduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.
  • Paradoxical Nonexistence: Characters still exist, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. Equivalently, characters qualify which don't exist but behave as if they do in some aspect other than their interaction with attacks and abilities. To qualify for this type, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of the aspects they are nonexistent in due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature. The character doesn't necessarily behave exclusively nonexistent in regard to attacks, but that is the only requirement necessary to gain this type. In terms of binary, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be part 0 and part 1 simultaneously.
 
Elizhaa said:
It sounds like type 2. Nonduality is like something that is not true, not false, sometimes neither true nor false, sometimes both true and false, or more complex truth states like from logic to the related dualities; nonduality is basically of the form of not being just true (let say 1) or false (let say 0) regarding the logical dualities, for short.

In this case, type 2 is just nonduality to nonexistence, like DontTalkDT said in my past reply. Applying the logic, let’s just focus on existence and nonexistence in the verse; Nirvana seems to encompass both, so it is just not existence, not nonexistence, from the complexity of the wuji. It looks to encompass multiple truth states.

Type 3 is like characters that are physically existent but have statements or the like that show they are nonexistent; it is rare since it seems like most are akin to antifeats since these characters are usually physically interactable.

  • Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. These characters often have some form of Nonduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.
  • Paradoxical Nonexistence: Characters still exist, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. Equivalently, characters qualify which don't exist but behave as if they do in some aspect other than their interaction with attacks and abilities. To qualify for this type, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of the aspects they are nonexistent in due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature. The character doesn't necessarily behave exclusively nonexistent in regard to attacks, but that is the only requirement necessary to gain this type. In terms of binary, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be part 0 and part 1 simultaneously.
Click to expand...
I don't know much about Nonduality in depth, so could you call other staff to provide input.
 
Elizhaa said:
It sounds like type 2. Nonduality is like something that is not true, not false, sometimes neither true nor false, sometimes both true and false, or more complex truth states like from logic to the related dualities; nonduality is basically of the form of not being just true (let say 1) or false (let say 0) regarding the logical dualities, for short.

In this case, type 2 is just nonduality to nonexistence, like DontTalkDT said in my past reply. Applying the logic, let’s just focus on existence and nonexistence in the verse; Nirvana seems to encompass both, so it is just not existence, not nonexistence, from the complexity of the wuji. It looks to encompass multiple truth states.

Type 3 is like characters that are physically existent but have statements or the like that show they are nonexistent; it is rare since it seems like most are akin to antifeats since these characters are usually physically interactable.

  • Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. These characters often have some form of Nonduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.
  • Paradoxical Nonexistence: Characters still exist, but paradoxically behave as if they don't when attacked. Equivalently, characters qualify which don't exist but behave as if they do in some aspect other than their interaction with attacks and abilities. To qualify for this type, a character needs to be stated to be immune to manipulations of the aspects they are nonexistent in due to their nonexistence. An example of that would be a character who is able to think, and hence has a mind, but is stated to be immune to regular mind manipulation as said mind is paradoxically nonexistent in nature. The character doesn't necessarily behave exclusively nonexistent in regard to attacks, but that is the only requirement necessary to gain this type. In terms of binary, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0, this would be part 0 and part 1 simultaneously.
Click to expand...
NEP 2 is nonexistence nonduality, not just encompasses both duality of existence and nonexistence. Basically your nothingness is more nothing than nonexistence

NEP 2 is not just something that neither of duality of existence and nonexistence, it is nonexistence that neither/lack of existence and nonexistence
 
Elizhaa said:
Nirvana seems to encompass both, so it is just not existence, not nonexistence, from the complexity of the wuji. It looks to encompass multiple truth states.
Click to expand...
And it's also there Taichi or Taiji symbolizes the interconnection of all things as well as the dynamic interaction and balance between opposing forces, such as yin and yang.
 
Maitreya said:
Alright, in regards to non-duality, since it’s defined as being outside and controlling of the dual systems, this can be demonstrated with Mori via his ascension into Nirvana. Which is a plane of existence that’s outside and oversees all of creation, totally free from all laws of nature. And a plane I’m which all physical ties to the real world have to be severed in order to reach.


Translation:
As I said before
This is the so-called heaven. A place where others reach Nirvana, where all the universe and
Can rule over all things
There is. Break free from physical bondage and enter the realm of complete God.

And, another thing that makes it concrete that Mori exists outside of the dual system that governs reality is the fact that he straight up broke out of the karmic cycle and then gained control over Karma itself. Karma being described in the series as:

In-Collage-20230714-130153304.jpg


So yeah I think there is supplementing material that shows nonduality may be applicable for Nirvana Mori.
Click to expand...
Based on Maitreya clarification i can see possible for Aspect Type 2 Duality. But Elizhaa convince about multiple truth states, maybe Aspect Type 3?
 
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I think Mori can Nonduality (Nature Type 1 & Aspect Type 2 or Aspect Type 3?? As mentioned Elizhaa above there multiple truth states), as reason below.

By his Omnipresence, he existing within all creation includes its dualities (Yin Yang, which presented many dualities that followed it's) within it, which he embodies as well as Maitreya stated above. Mori, through his ascension into Heaven, when he reaches Nirvana. As stated, the higher plane of existence, which can exist outside and oversee all of creation, is where his ties in the world are severed in order to reach Nirvana.

Also karma stuff, as stated, he is a being that controls and encompasses all realms and entirely phenomena of existence.

Because of this Mori not also becoming one with dualities that he embodies, he also control and encompasses all of it as well as exists outside it, in order when reaches Nirvana and exists in higher plane of existence outside all of creation.

As Nonduality page mentioned below.

Nonduality is the state of being wherein an entity exists independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level. For example, taking 0 and 1, the two possible states of binary systems, as a duality, a nondual character's state of being could be between 0 and 1, being both or neither at once, being another number besides these, or be indescribable through numbers.

Nonduality: Characters with this type of nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems they're nondual regarding without transcending them on any level. Though this power renders them immune to effects intermediated through the dualities in question, characters with certain forms of Causality Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Information Manipulation, Law Manipulation, or Mathematics Manipulation could potentially bestow these dualities on them, which would remove their nondual nature and render them vulnerable to attacks governed by the dualities.
 
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Since Mori unbound to the dualities, Mori can get Nonduality Type 1 Aspect 2 (Type 2 if Mori also qualitatively superior than the dualities). For NeP2, you should show that Mori isn't just participated with the dualities; Wuji and Taiji, but also doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence.

Of course we know that NeP2 have some form of Nonduality due to their lack of binary existence, but we can't generalized the Nonduality in NeP2 to all type of Nonduality (especially for Aspect 2).
 
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Disagree with Elizhaa regarding NEP Nature 2, not seeing how this is Nature 2.
CodeCCLL said:
According to the scans in the OP, this is obviously NEP Nature Type 3, definitely not Type 2. For Type 2, Mori must exist as a deeper nothingness, lacking even the duality of existence and non-existence. There isn't any proof that Mori is lack of dualities and can resist their effects. Mori literally becomes dualities themselves. Since he has become a combination of many dualities such as existence and non-existence, he has a paradoxical existence in which opposites coexist. This is textbook NEP Nature Type 3.
Click to expand...
My thoughts exactly.

CodeCCLL said:
Aspect Type 2 should be valid due to Mori's essence. For Aspect Type 5, this would be more Acausality Type 4. For Type 5, as in other aspects, characters must lack another fundamental element that makes up their existence. (For example; Plot, History and Narrative, Attributes and Laws etc.)
Click to expand...
This is correct.

Also for what i can see the ND would be Type 1, Aspect 2, It could be Plurality but I don't quite understand how many truth values are shown here.

By the way, there is a misconception about ND Nature 2 aka TD that now that we are talking about ND I will mention it.
  1. Transduality: Characters with this type of nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems they're nondual regarding while also possessing qualitative superiority to them. Besides immunizing them against the dualities in question, this power also immunizes them against attempts to apply those dualities to them, as they would transcend the scope of the haxes that could do so.
Click to expand...
People get scared when they hear QS because all at once they think that the only necessary requirement would be transcendence, but as the page indicates by existing outside of all those dualities would be a qualification, but at the same time you have to show some kind of superiority, this can come from statements like "Transcendence", "Beyond", "Lacking"/"Outside" + Overall superiority over the dualities (Although we know that Beyond and Transcendence are the same since it implies exceeding or surpassing the limits of something, this can be proven by complete superiority without a direct statement of "Transcendence"). So unless you have statements of the 3 terms or situations just mentioned or your character has a complete superiority in both existence and physiology (without the need of a transcendence or a higher dimensionality) over these dualities you can propose TD.
 
I can see mori in his nirvana state being ND possibly aspect 2

Not because his omnipresent, but because he reach nirvana. Being one with many dualities is not same as being nonduality of onenes, onenes is require the "mixed" of the dualities being one logic as whole, not just being the dualities it self

So i dont see any simultaneously A and B logic in here
 
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