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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter The_Impress
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Doesn't necessarily mean Multiverse.
That's... absolutely not true, not at all. Vishanti, Tribunal... Anyone, really.
Doesn't really scale to Multiverse either.
The implication, seemingly, limits it all to nine realms specifically, though like with the rest - not enough context.
Paradise X comics events appear to happen on Earth-9997, where Mephisto was the one to plant Yggdrasil. Something that doesn't even remotely scale to mainline.
No, it doesn't. -_- It contains Hades, Greek Hell, from which somehow, just like with both Anti-Man and, to a lesser extent, Storm, one can "fall" into higher realms from far lower ones... With reasons often dubious.
Deadpool is far from a reliable narrator, and the image is far from reliable depiction.
Odin literally says - 10 realms.
Not even remotely Multiversal, still mentions 10 (8) realms, and only implies that 616 Universe might have started from Yggdrasil at best.
With an implied new Devourer, not cosmos.
...this can't be it. Where is the rest of it?
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What will your thread be about?
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It's the blog post I posted earlier today. I will argue for having Low 1-A instead of 1-A for this cosmology and all the characters who scale to it, but basically I just want a thread dedicated to the cosmology discussion we are having right now. It will only be about characters UNDER Uni Abstract True Forms, characters scaling to Multiversal Abstracts will not be part of the discussion.What will your thread be about?
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1. All existence = everything that exists. Nonexistent realms wouldn't be a part of it.
2. Have those other entities entirely depowered Strange before? Genuine question.
3. It scales to any magic Strange has ever accessed before.
4. It mentions the Nine Realms, certainly, but also "all of creation", and Thor later clarifies that stopping Amora had saved "all realities". He's aware of realities beyond the Nine Worlds, so it doesn't make sense to use that phraseology unless he meant it.
5. That's the point--Yggdrasil extends across and contains multiple timelines.
6. This point I could see potentially being valid.
7. Saying the image isn't reliable is pretty much just vibes
8. He also doesn't limit it to ten realms. It's also clarified elsewhere that Yggdrasil doesn't just contain the ten, just that most Asgardians don't realize that all those other realms are also part of the World Tree. It's where "all realms, dimensions, and eras collide", and the ten realms are just part of the "tree that is everything".
9. Yggdrasil being split in half being a catastrophe on a scale that had "never been seen before" would scale it above any conflicts that had taken place in 616 up to that point.
10. If that's the case, then Galactus' peak would scale to Yggdrasil as well.
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There's also the Doctor Strange run where a robot army used the power of "super science" and technology (in explicit contrast with magic as a force in the universe) to disrupt and neutralize Strange's magic, in part by neutralizing the magic of sorcerers across the mystic realms and destroying magic landmarks on earth to get rid of the existence of magic...
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- Yggdrasil exists on other planes and "binds all"
- Gnawing on the root of Yggdrasil is gnawing on the root of everything
- Yggdrasil holds "all that is, was, or could be" and is immeasurably vast even to the gods
- Seth destroying Yggdrasil would eliminate all life in the multiverse
- It exists on every plane of reality
- The World Seed would give birth to the next World Tree and with it the next Galactus
- Yggdrasil as an entity is the Cosmic Axis and thus extends over all the God Realms, not just the Norse Realms
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In contrast to Yggdrasil, which was just strong enough to do it outright (in addition to being the most potent source of magic Strange had ever felt)
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We both know that such flowery language can apply to anything. I am saying - you can’t use it as a Multiversal justification. Not by itself at least.
I mean, we know they can. If your argument is that nothing below Yggdrasil can depower Stephen - I am telling you - this isn’t the case, and the statement becomes unreliable. For the actual cases… Idk, I think Vishanti stripped him of his power for sure, maybe not even once.
As sheer capacity of it, sure, maybe. But he doesn’t compare it to anything directly, he doesn’t say… “Eternity is a being of Magic but this tree… something else…” Again, it’s not like it’s wrong, it just doesn’t scale by default to anything really.
Again, it doesn’t matter, because both realms and realities used interchangeably. Thor constantly mentions 9 realms but never once says the word Multiverse. And without name dropping Multiverse it is we can’t determine if it was Multiversal or “9-realms”-versal. Similarly, all of creation, as I said before, can easily mean Universal Eternity.
No, it isn’t, you are trying to prove a point by the same point. This is completely different Yggdrasil with a completely different story on a completely different Earth with completely different feats. You need to first prove that all World Trees are one before compositing them.
HUH? What do you meeeean, that’s literally Deadpool, making a funny narration. It isn’t an accurate representation.
That’s not the point though. He clearly limits Yggdrasil to the “Asgardian cosmology” of “realms”, and doesn’t at all says that it is Multiversal.
Or, logically, it would be “never been seen before” scale of the Asgard, and not all of 616, which is a language authors commonly used. Granted, that’s barely a point though, as such upscale from everything prior cause people to see 4-planets Galan above Lifebringer, so it doesn’t even matter without context.
I mean… maybe?? He literally calls it Galactus Seed, I would assume some connection.
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I’ll check these after work.
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I guess our interpretations of the same passages just don't match. That's okay. I very much take the position of "The text says this structure encompasses all realities, every plane, and all of existence, so that's how I interpret it". It's abundantly clear that Yggdrasil isn't limited to the nine realms, that it extends across every plane of reality, and all life in the multiverse depends upon it, that it composes "all of creation", and that it scales above any magic source Strange had ever encountered, because that's what the text actually states.We both know that such flowery language can apply to anything. I am saying - you can’t use it as a Multiversal justification. Not by itself at least.
I mean, we know they can. If your argument is that nothing below Yggdrasil can depower Stephen - I am telling you - this isn’t the case, and the statement becomes unreliable. For the actual cases… Idk, I think Vishanti stripped him of his power for sure, maybe not even once.
As sheer capacity of it, sure, maybe. But he doesn’t compare it to anything directly, he doesn’t say… “Eternity is a being of Magic but this tree… something else…” Again, it’s not like it’s wrong, it just doesn’t scale by default to anything really.
Again, it doesn’t matter, because both realms and realities used interchangeably. Thor constantly mentions 9 realms but never once says the word Multiverse. And without name dropping Multiverse it is we can’t determine if it was Multiversal or “9-realms”-versal. Similarly, all of creation, as I said before, can easily mean Universal Eternity.
No, it isn’t, you are trying to prove a point by the same point. This is completely different Yggdrasil with a completely different story on a completely different Earth with completely different feats. You need to first prove that all World Trees are one before compositing them.
HUH? What do you meeeean, that’s literally Deadpool, making a funny narration. It isn’t an accurate representation.When did Living Tribunal ever played chess with Thanos?
That’s not the point though. He clearly limits Yggdrasil to the “Asgardian cosmology” of “realms”, and doesn’t at all says that it is Multiversal.
Or, logically, it would be “never been seen before” scale of the Asgard, and not all of 616, which is a language authors commonly used. Granted, that’s barely a point though, as such upscale from everything prior cause people to see 4-planets Galan above Lifebringer, so it doesn’t even matter without context.
I mean… maybe?? He literally calls it Galactus Seed, I would assume some connection.
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Sounds good
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I started the day with some tea, so I can do it now.
All that debunking, and I still have 10 minutes till work. Nice!
The context here is Earth as one such "plane" which means "mystical planes", one of which is Earth/Midgard/Material Plane. Which is painfully obvious with context.
Again... This is a flavory language. Even without it, "everything" can also mean Earth-616, and doesn't automatically mean Multiverse.
Sure, but on its own it too doesn't directly state anything regarding Multiverse. Just nine realms. Universal Eternity too holds all that, check the page. I am not trying to be ass, I swear! But... the scans don't say what you think they do.
Finallyyyy! Except... Well... See next one.
So, as I mentioned above - every plane of reality doesn't mean every iteration of eternity, but mystical planes, and that should be your default assumption. Now, what about prior statement? Well, the "Multiverse" statement comes from Ericka Velez, later revealed to be Sif. Sif at that point in time, proven by your own scan, was stripped of both powers and memories, and isn't a reliable source. Also, the fact that it is an old comic doesn't help (as Lord knows, they used Multiverse all the time then).
The problem is that this statement contradicts your prior scan on what Galan himself says about the Seed. And I trust Galan more than Odin on this one.
This one is fairly simple, as all pantheon exist in the 616 Universe only, so I don't have any issues with every pantheon having shared Yggdrasil, it still limits it to Marvel's Universe.
All that debunking, and I still have 10 minutes till work. Nice!
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Agree to disagree, I suppose. As I mentioned in my previous post the scaling seems clear to me, but if you're dead set on universal Yggdrasil that's fine. That wouldn't necessarily contradict 1-A anyway.
I can't believe I forgot to mention this earlier, but we should also recognize that Yggdrasil is the source of Rune King Thor's power, as it's made clear that the Allpower and Runes are given Odin and then RKT by sacrificing to Yggdrasil. Even if Yggdrasil was relegated to a single timeline, it would still qualify for 1-A.
I can't believe I forgot to mention this earlier, but we should also recognize that Yggdrasil is the source of Rune King Thor's power, as it's made clear that the Allpower and Runes are given Odin and then RKT by sacrificing to Yggdrasil. Even if Yggdrasil was relegated to a single timeline, it would still qualify for 1-A.
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Yeah, I don’t have anything against 1-A Yggdrasil, if we decide to go with option 2 in 1-A vs Low 1-A debacle. If not, we might consider the idea of putting it as Low 1-A too.
And I do agree that it’s 1-A regardless if it’s Universal or Multiversal. But let’s not kid ourselves: there’s a huge difference between Outerversal and Outerversal+.
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No problem with that here.
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Wouldn't that cause circular scaling though, if we scale Yggdrasil to Rune King Thor?
Base Thor > Yggdrasil > Rune King Thor > Base Thor?
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Base Thor doesn't scale to the totality of Yggdrasil most of the time. Only when he accesses his inner power, and I don't have a problem with that being above his amped forms. It was base Thor that invoked Thurisaz when he overpowered the World Engine, and he amped himself with his own belief when he defeated MYTHOS.
That being said, RKT doesn't necessarily represent the "cap" of Yggdrasil's power. The story never says that he was given all of its runes or magic, just that he gained significantly more than Odin.
Perhaps this could lead to a compromise. Regular Yggdrasil feats where it's not specified that the majority of the Tree was affected could be Low 1-A to keep with current Skyfather tiering, in the possible event that the Astral Plane and Nightmare Realm get downgraded to Low 1-A. Thor's "inner power/max belief" feats of overpowering the Tree's full might would be 1-A+, but nobody would scale to those except him since they were completely self-contained events. The only other scaling we'd need to address is when Hulked-out Complete All-Father Thor overpowered the combined might of every single known and unknown universe and all the runes of Yggdrasil and uprooted it, but the only character who would scale to that is Worthy Hulk (who doesn't have and shouldn't get a key on the wiki).
So we'd avoid circular logic by having Inner Belief/Power Base Thor > The totality of Yggdrasil > RKT > TWSAIS >>> vague Yggdrasil feats = Skyfather tiers >= regular base Thor.
I'll need to look into all the Yggdrasil feats from non-Thor characters to see if Low 1-A even makes sense, though, since if RKT, who is explicitly above regular Skyfathers, derived the totality of his power from the Cosmic Axis, we'll need to think long and hard about what that would look like. It would be very difficult to justify Low 1-A for Hercules's feat of lifting the Axis Mundi, for example, since that's Yggdrasil by a different name. Amora's feat of splitting the Tree nearly in half would also logically be higher, but that is perhaps a conversation for once I've looked into it further.
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I don't think we can just handwave it like that. Like Thor does have peaks. We know several times when he is using his full power because he says so against opponents like Thanos and Ultron. We know that it takes everything he has to break Celestial armor and even then can barely do it. We know Odin can depower him completely. We know that Galactus is more powerful than him. It obviously makes no narrative sense at all for base Thor be above Rune King Thor ever, and especially not to be above Beyonders. Like yeah Thor varies, but not that heavily. We can't just use Thor's variability to decide that the concept of outliers doesn't apply to Thor.
Characters like Storm, Odin, Surtur, Atlas, Hercules, and Amora all scale Yggdrasil, and they obviously aren't more powerful than Rune King Thor. We can't scale Yggdrasil to RKT, it is completely narrative and scaling breaking.
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ObberGobb seems to make sense here, but Thor has apparently been powered up a lot in relation to Celestials since the Tom DeFalco run on his comicbook, and also threw the Odinsword right through one of them once.
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Okay, I voiced my concerns over discord, but no one ever listens to me anyway, so I'll do the court of public opinions again.
Basically, Rune King Thor stated to be equal or superior to Those Who Sit Above In Shadow for them failing to stop him breaking Ragnarok cycles.
Problem here is: they don't fail to stop him, they don't even try. They never directly oppose him with their own strength, and considering they don't do anything - one has to assume they can't interfere. Now, why they can't is irrelevant. The fact is - Thor can't scale to them, not fully, nor partially, he simply destroys the loom, exploiting cycle's weak point of one single thread.
Basically, Rune King Thor stated to be equal or superior to Those Who Sit Above In Shadow for them failing to stop him breaking Ragnarok cycles.
Problem here is: they don't fail to stop him, they don't even try. They never directly oppose him with their own strength, and considering they don't do anything - one has to assume they can't interfere. Now, why they can't is irrelevant. The fact is - Thor can't scale to them, not fully, nor partially, he simply destroys the loom, exploiting cycle's weak point of one single thread.
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The thing is that when Thor fights foes like Thanos and Ultron, he doesn't invoke his inner belief in his own story like he does when he amps himself with Thurisaz before overpowering the World Engine or when he defeats MYTHOS after being stripped of the Allpower. Those are levels above his normal max and only apply within the contexts of those stories, so there's no chain-scaling involved. In terms of him reaching that peak narratively, a few years ago I would have agreed with you, but now that Ewing has retconned him to be more Elder God than Asgardian I don't see an issue with him having these peaks.
Good point about those Yggdrasil scalings though. I'm fine with Yggdrasil just remaining at 1-A for the sake of wiki coherence.
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We already discussed this over Discord, yes. The idea that TWSAIS have some outside factor apart from Thor's strength, which they verbally acknowledge, preventing them from interfering is complete headcanon.
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If they offered that Rune King Thor should join them and then did not stop him from doing something detrimental to them, it seems reasonable to scale RKT as being at least as strong as they are, yes.
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The reasoning is that they recognized his strength and offered to let him join him. That was how they tried to stop him. They couldn't do anything to stop him so they had to bargain
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It doesn't really change much though. Like yeah he's Elder God, but we've known that. The feats are still outliers because they are so far out of the bounds of what is narratively consistent for him. His Skyfather Tier feats (which Yggdrasil is) are extremely consistent, but the 1-A feats are all pretty weak.
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Recognizing one's strength =/= being equal. Mephisto recognizing Mayday's strength and her breaking his plans doesn't suddenly make her equal to him.
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I wouldn't call them outliers since there's a provided in-story mechanism for them.
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Recognizing an opponent's strength along with being completely helpless against them is quite another, however.
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I'm sorry to tell you this man but Hickman is an extremely popular writer and a lot of Marvel's readers enjoy his stories. You're an extreme minority in how you see him.Yes. Marvel has long let extremely toxic writers, in particular Hickman and Gillen, continuously poison anything positive produced by other, much more constructive, writers, such as Ewing, which has eventually turned the entire setting and its characters into a thoroughly unlikeable, morbid, disgusting, and amoral mess.
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Responded on the Thor thread
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I can understand your skepticism, but in the end, I have to disagree. One of the most important things to note about the interaction between Rune King Thor and Those Who Sit Above in Shadow is that TWSAIS practically blitzed Thor before he destroyed the Ragnarok Loom, as they manifested around him right before he swung mjolnir to beg him to stop. That means they had a clear window of opportunity to attack him, and it would definitely fit with their personalities to attack him right there. TWSAIS (before a retcon) depended on feeding from the Ragnarok cycle to survive, and Thor depriving them of their food source was described as akin to destroying them.
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That's not what happens though. They aren't blitzing him, as opposed to them appearing in his mind, akin to how they appeared in Odin's dream. Nothing suggests that they are physically there (nor any other way tbh).
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Unfortunately yes, given how extremely corruptive his ideology and mindscape are for many of those exposed to them. Regardless, I have gone indepth analytical regarding why I consider him to be gleefully amoral and corruptive scum in old posts that you can find if you search for them, but I only claim to speak for myself.
Agreed.
More information is available here:
Steve Wacker Replaces C.B. Cebulski As Marvel Editor-In-Chief
Steve Wacker replaces C.B. Cebulski as Marvel's new Editor-In-Chief after 9 years as C,B, Cebulski becomes Marvel's new Asia Originals Editor
bleedingcool.com
Given that Cebulski, among other things, allowed the morbid amoral abomination Krakoa storyline, I definitely won't miss him. Let's hope that Wacker is able to do a much better job.
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Based on the article posted above, Steve Wacker is a bit of a mixed bag. When he was senior editor, he oversaw One More Day, Brand New Day and the Superior Spider-Man series, as well as Daredevil, Hawkeye, and Captain Marvel. He also co-created Kamala Khan, did a bunch of animation stuff, and edited for the It's Jeff! comic.
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Speaking of him, did you guys hear that he apparently wants to do a sequel to it?I think that Joe Quesada was obsessed with forcing One More Day on the Spider-Man readership, so blaming Wacker for that seems unfair.
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Let's hope not. Considering the reprehensible manner that Quesada treated Peter David, and offhandedly was very casually vulgar when referring to Paul Lewitz, I consider him to not only have a bad sense of judgement, but to also be conceited egotistical scum.
Anyway, some more information.
Anyway, some more information.
Marvel Comics Moves From New York To Los Angeles Over The Next Year
It looks like C.B. Cebulski prefers Tokyo to Los Angeles. Marvel Comics is moving its editorial offices from New York, after around ninety years, to
bleedingcool.com
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