Shadow Saint Vs Sword Saint

[S33rz]

Sunless

Vs

Reinhard

Saint/Transcendent Sunless key
Vs
Reinhard with Dragon sword

• Speed is not-equalized
• In-character
• Starting distance of 400 meters.
• Sunny can use his shadows.
• SBA

Sunless:
Reinhard:
Incon:

 

[Seraphor12]

Btw that key is transcendent not saint

 

[S33rz]

Btw that key is transcendent not saint

I'll add that then in case it get's confusing.

 

[Seraphor12]

I think Reinhard would win because sunless don't have any resistance to conceptual manipulation type 2.

 

[S33rz]

I think Reinhard would win because sunless don't have any resistance to conceptual manipulation type 2.

Check rank physiology, resistance to absorption and concept type 2 is because of a Sunless feat.

Resistance to Absorption and Concept Manipulation (Type 2) (Sunny could resist the shadow of Condemnation absorbing his body, mind, soul, and spirit — fundamental essence of his existence — into itself.)

Condemnation does it's whole thing via type 2 concept.

 

[Seraphor12]

Check rank physiology, resistance to absorption and concept type 2 is because of a Sunless feat.


Condemnation does it's whole thing via type 2 concept.

That's in supreme section, not in transcendent. I thought this is transcendent sunny vs reinhard.

 

[S33rz]

That's in supreme section, not in transcendent. I thought this is transcendent sunny vs reinhard.

Said feat was performed by Saint Sunless using Will. Some Saints will have part of the supreme physiology Will section because of it.

 

[Seraphor12]

Said feat was performed by Saint Sunless using Will. Some Saints will have part of the supreme physiology Will section because of it.

Wait did you cleared that thing in CRT?

 

[S33rz]

Wait did you cleared that thing in CRT?

I discussed it with actuallyspaceman, Saint profiles have possibly limited reality warping because of it.

Possibly Limited Reality Warping (Saints can learn how to wield the will.)

It's up to supporters to drop what the Saint has accomplished with Will tho, Sunless can only use Will in his Saint key for what he's been shown to use it to do.

 

[Seraphor12]

I discussed it with actuallyspaceman, Saint profiles have possibly limited reality warping because of it.


It's up to supporters to drop what the Saint has accomplished with Will tho, Sunless can only use Will in his Saint key for what he's been shown to use it to do.

Hmm, I see. So I think that too should be added to Sunless's profile in transcendent key. But anyway since he have resistance to conceptual manipulation type 2 and law manipulation too, then I think he wins because of higher ap.

 

[UrongSygn1]

Does Sunny resist Dura Neg?

 

[Seraphor12]

Does Sunny resist Dura Neg?

He can turn into a shadow to avoid getting critical hits.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Edgy ahh teenager vs "I always win" teenager

 

[S33rz]

Edgy ahh teenager vs "I always win" teenager

They both get ordered around a lot too.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

They both get ordered around a lot too.

Sunny is just a fetish at this point lmao, really a Shadow "Slave"

 

[S33rz]

Sunny is just a fetish at this point lmao, really a Shadow "Slave"

In comparison to me (and Reinhard) he's the one in a loving relationship so he's doing something right .

 

[Zabazab]

Edgy ahh teenager vs "I always win" teenager

Reinhard-kun is 20!

 

[S33rz]

Reinhard-kun is 20!

One foot in the grave already!

Anyway, what does Reinhard do when his EE and Dura neg doesn't work. (Actual Reinhard fights are possible guys)

 

[Zabazab]

He's a swordsman first and foremost (even though he usually fights with his limbs instead), so he'll be fairly straightforward.

 

[Hercules1125]

I’m not sure why Sunny can resist the dragon sword, and turning into a shadow wouldn’t really work since we see bright enough sources of light can erase them (Nephis) and Reinhard erases Satella’s shadows casually

Shadow dance wouldn’t really work either, mainly because Sunny as a saint doesn’t have his true name so he would risk getting lost in Reinhard’s own identity, people like Reid (weaker than Reinhard) have been shown consuming people’s identities when they tried to copy them (Roy)

Sunny also shouldn’t have resistance to Reinhard’s power null (assuming we equalise essence and mana) so he’d get drained really quickly and die so yeah, Reinhard takes it IMO

 

[S33rz]

He's a swordsman first and foremost (even though he usually fights with his limbs instead), so he'll be fairly straightforward.

That's fine, Reinhard is quite faster but Sunless AP stomps. He would have to Kill Sunless 7 times tho.

Sunless is Acasual and cut off from Fate so Reinhard can't rely on his intuition to do anything here.

I’m not sure why Sunny can resist the dragon sword, and turning into a shadow wouldn’t really work since we see bright enough sources of light can erase them (Nephis) and Reinhard erases Satella’s shadows casually

Sunless can use shadow Lantern to make infinite shadows and does not have this problem as a Saint.

Shadow dance wouldn’t really work either, mainly because Sunny as a saint doesn’t have his true name so he would risk getting lost in Reinhard’s own identity, people like Reid (weaker than Reinhard) have been shown consuming people’s identities when they tried to copy them (Roy)

No one's arguing for Shadow dance anyway (since he doesn't use it as a Saint), but Sunless is perfectly capable of regaining his identity due to his other duplicates. All Saint's have a True Name which is Info type 2 and is an anchor for the self, Sunless being able to copy any random saint and keeping his sanity is more enough for someone like Reid.

And it would be crazy saying he would be unable to.

Sunny also shouldn’t have resistance to Reinhard’s power null (assuming we equalise essence and mana) so he’d get drained really quickly and die so yeah, Reinhard takes it IMO

Literal random sorcery that Master's resist absorbs and powernull through taking essence. Why would this do anything, especially since Sunless resists this?

Resistance to Absorption and Concept Manipulation (Type 2) (Sunny could resist the shadow of Condemnation absorbing his body, mind, soul, and spirit — fundamental essence of his existence — into itself.)

 

[Hercules1125]

That's fine, Reinhard is quite faster but Sunless AP stomps. He would have to Kill Sunless 7 times tho.

Sunless is Acasual and cut off from Fate so Reinhard can't rely on his intuition to do anything here.

This is fine, but intuition isn’t just a fate thing, it’s also just a general thing which exists through reading the movements and actions of the enemy

Sunless can use shadow Lantern to make infinite shadows and does not have this problem as a Saint.

That’s not what he starts off with especially when he doesn’t know the abilities of his opponent, just look at his fight against the 13 Saints (iirc) he doesn’t start off with that, it’s highly likely he would get erased before he can even do that

No one's arguing for Shadow dance anyway (since he doesn't use it as a Saint), but Sunless is perfectly capable of regaining his identity due to his other duplicates. All Saint's have a True Name which is Info type 2 and is an anchor for the self, Sunless being able to copy any random saint and keeping his sanity is more enough for someone like Reid.

Except Sunny doesn’t fully copy them, and he only copies them to a slight extent so he can maintain his identity which he is textually afraid of losing, whereas Reid is capable of overpowering conceptual authorities stealing his identity

And it would be crazy saying he would be unable to.

Literal random sorcery that Master's resist absorbs and powernull through taking essence. Why would this do anything, especially since Sunless resists this?

I can’t access imgur links, this has to be some form of bullying

 

[S33rz]

This is fine, but intuition isn’t just a fate thing, it’s also just a general thing which exists through reading the movements and actions of the enemy

That's analytical prediction, Sunless can already do that from the first level of shadow dance and in fact his should be better because of being tied to a fundamental aspect.

That’s not what he starts off with especially when he doesn’t know the abilities of his opponent, just look at his fight against the 13 Saints (iirc) he doesn’t start off with that, it’s highly likely he would get erased before he can even do that

Context matters, that was a holding back Sunless who thought they were useful, after he stopped holding back he proceeded to trash them. There's no reason to hold back against Reinhard.

Except Sunny doesn’t fully copy them, and he only copies them to a slight extent so he can maintain his identity which he is textually afraid of losing, whereas Reid is capable of overpowering conceptual authorities stealing his identity

Literally no one has info type 2 stuff in Re zero, which True Names are, why would copying them be harder than a literal info type 2 barrier.

I'm not arguing he will btw, Saint Sunless does not copy people.

I can’t access imgur links, this has to be some form of bullying

I don't have the text, so you'll just have to make do .

 

[Trxyway]

So what are the win cons for each side?

 

[S33rz]

So what are the win cons for each side?

Reinhard:
Kill Sunless 7 times.
Faster
More skilled
Od laguna.

Sunless:
Higher AP
Layered Death manip.
BFR.
Invul/Invul neg

 

[Floxy178]

That’s not what he starts off with especially when he doesn’t know the abilities of his opponent, just look at his fight against the 13 Saints (iirc) he doesn’t start off with that, it’s highly likely he would get erased before he can even do that

Pretty sure his concern was that Slayer would escape via lantern and wipe out everyone, which he didn't want to.

Also (at least by SS's logic) shadows aren't simply countered by light source, it's a matter of which is stronger.

 

[S33rz]

Pretty sure his concern was that Slayer would escape via lantern and wipe out everyone, which he didn't want to.

Also (at least by SS's logic) shadows aren't simply countered by light source, it's a matter of which is stronger.

Forgot about this. Actually, ignoring this does Reinhard have Light manipuation?

 

[Hercules1125]

Forgot about this. Actually, ignoring this does Reinhard have Light manipuation?

Yep

 

[S33rz]

Yep

Color me suprised then.

Not ignoring that, the shadows from the Lantern are definetely more potent whether you go by numbers, source, the caster etc. (Satella is the inferior shadow manipulator.)

 

[Seraphor12]

Color me suprised then.

Not ignoring that, the shadows from the Lantern are definetely more potent whether you go by numbers, source, the caster etc. (Satella is the inferior shadow manipulator.)

Btw, he can also use lantern to destroy light or attacks related to light.

Enchantment Description: [This lantern devours light and can contain, and then release, an infinite amount of shadows.]

And since it is of divine rank, its potency should be way higher, Kinda similar to Divine beings like weaver who are like Low 1-C, so can he resist it from destroying the light?

 

[S33rz]

And since it is of divine rank, its potency should be way higher, Kinda similar to Divine beings like weaver who are like Low 1-C, so can he resist it from destroying the light?

Overkill, imo. But yeah! The Lantern itself is out of Reinhard's/Dragon swords league due to it's nature.

Sunless regular shadow manipulation should also be too powerful as well.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Just saying, the analytical prediction on sunless's page is absolutely dogwater because it has no feats which its connected to. Emilia dodging perception blitzing danmaku via reading intent is superior

 

[karo_senpaii]

Just saying, the analytical prediction on sunless's page is absolutely dogwater because it has no feats which its connected to. Emilia dodging perception blitzing danmaku via reading intent is superior

If she dodged it then it's not perception blitzing. Also this is just nice reflexes and not some God like analytical prediction

 

[karo_senpaii]

Who said Reinhard is faster here? Speed is equalized and sunny gets a 7 times amp.. He probably blitzes

 

[S33rz]

Who said Reinhard is faster here? Speed is equalized and sunny gets a 7 times amp.. He probably blitzes

I equalized on reflex, uh! Sunless can't win with a blitz and get it added. I'll remove speed equalized condition.

 

[S33rz]

Just saying, the analytical prediction on sunless's page is absolutely dogwater because it has no feats which its connected to. Emilia dodging perception blitzing danmaku via reading intent is superior

In regards to this, Nephis as a Sleeper can make use of her analytical prediction to dodge attacks from a Fallen.

The devil descended upon the silver-haired girl in a fury of obliterating black steel. Nephis met him with her usual calm resolve, dodging strike after strike with incredible skill.

Just like a lifetime ago, when she had been facing Caster at the dojo of the Academy, she used her understanding and control of the flow of combat to breach the gap in speed between her and her opponent.
She wasn't as much reacting to the deadly blows delivered by the devil as predicting them, moving to evade the strikes of the black greatsword before they could even happen.

The gap between Sleeper and Fallen is Building level/Sub sonic against City level/Massively Hypersonic..... So?

In addition all user's of battle clarity can do stuff like dodging attacks from people that blitz them and is in fact the first use of the technique we're shown.

In regards to other skill, the gap between them isn't even that high, with Sunless probably being more skilled with Analytical prediction and Instinctive actions.

The only possible way you can even say Reinhard skill stomps is if we use dodging rain drops, light, or exploding rooms but Saint's resist Law manip and physics manip and can fight inside places where space and time are stretched and scattered.

Which meant…
Groaning, Sunny stumbled to his left and rolled. In the next moment, an obsidian knife pierced the polished obsidian in the spot where he had been a split second before, sending a net of cracks running through the glossy stone.
If Sunny could maintain his sense of self within the shadow of Condemnation,then the damned archer would be able, too.
Which meant that their battle was not over.
It had merely switched locations.
Smiling darkly, Sunny pushed himself off the cold stone and lunged himself at the enemy. Battering the bone knife aside with the splinter of the ivory fang, he crashed into the nebulous slayer and pushed them both off the slab of obsidian.

Since space was twisted and broken inside the shadow of the dead god, just like time was, there was no real up and down here. Sunny rolled across the glossy black surface, but never fell further down — because no matter where on the enormous sphere he stood, down was always below him.
Standing up with a stifled groan, he briefly looked around.

So, I can actually argue Reinhard doesn't skill stomp if that's what you're saying.

Edit: I'm gonna do it, i might have to argue this in future threads.

Anyway, to start Clarity is the act of reaching a special state that allows those who reach it fight against those of superior physical capabilities than them but it's more than that.

In the forgotten shore, everyone there is required to fight against NM creatures stronger and faster than them, over the course of years they can persevere due to their skill. Said skill of theirs is inferior to a Sunless who picks a sword up for just months.

The archer gave him a nod and smiled.
"Another thing I wanted to say is that I also understood how you managed to survive all those months in the ruins. Your swordsmanship… I've never seen anything like it. I think that very few people in the Dark City would survive a clash against you. So, everything makes more sense now."

This clarity is able to allow him to defend against being blitzed.

Because of it, the gap in speed between the two of them was not completely lethal. And yet, he was incomparably slower. In terms of pure physical ability, Sunny had no hope of surviving this duel.
…But he already knew the secret of how one had to fight against Caster. He had learned it from Changing Star herself, during that short and fateful spar.
A year ago, Nephis had been in a similar situation, and yet almost defeated her swift enemy. She had anticipated Caster's moves instead of reacting to them, and due to that, his speed advantage had been made less severe. This was what Sunny had to do now.
Of course, to achieve such a feat, one had to possess an intricate understanding of the underlying laws of combat and a true mastery of both their mind and their body.
Luckily, Sunny was one such man. He had obtained clarity a long time ago, and spent every waking hour sharpening his skill and instincts. His mind had entered into the state of flow, making his perception stark and all-encompassing, his thoughts quicker. His intuition was enhanced by the knowledge of the essence of battle.
…That gave him a chance to win.

And with his aspect legacy shadow dance his analytical prediction get's even better allowing him to copy the swordstyles of this people and use it against them.

His style changed slightly, growing more graceful. Smooth, flowing. Deadly.
Just like hers.
'No, this is wrong.'
The point of Shadow Dance was not to mirror every movement, to become a literal copy. It was to understand the very essence of the enemy's style and turn it against them.
Sunny scowled and changed his grip on the Midnight Shard slightly, then attacked, manifesting the essence of Changing Star's technique into his own body. Suddenly, he was able to see her intentions with more clarity, understand the pattern of her steps better.
He was able to perform every action she had performed, but also those that she had not used yet. After all, he was not a reflection, but a shadow. He wasn't replicating Changing Star's movements; instead, he was replicating Changing Star herself.
The very heart of her battle technique.

Robbed of his sight against someone higher in skill than everyone mentioned so far (besides Changing star) he still adapts quick enough to win.

If anyone else was in Sunny's place, they would have been already dead. Robbed of their sight, very few people — if anyone at all — could have resisted the furious assault of the terrifyingly strong hunchback. But Sunny wasn't just anyone.
Even while blind, he had Shadow Sense on his side. While it wasn't the same as being able to see Harus, by sensing the movements of his shadow, Sunny was able to predict his attacks with at least some level of precision.

This Sunny is mid diffed by Sleeper Nephis in a fight she was trying to throw.

"I would have believed that, maybe, if not for your other mistakes. Back at the top of the Spire, you had an opportunity to cut off my arm, ending the fight right there and then. That was the best course of action, the swiftest and most effective attack you could have performed. But instead, you chose a less advantageous method and went for my head, striking with the flat of the blade."

A grim expression appeared on his face.

"Someone else might have made that choice, but not you. Not Changing Star, the sword saint. The only reason for you to pass on that golden opportunity is that you never really wanted to win. Did you?"

Now, that's pretty good. But it doesn't stop there, Sunless proceeds to get more skilled adding more battle arts to his repoirtie. Including battle arts focused on how one circulates their essence.

What's more, at the highest levels of Awakened battle skill, styles were not only about physical movements and mindset anymore. They weaved unique patterns of essence control into the technique, too, which Sunny couldn't perceive and was only able to infer from indirect clues. Sadly, he wasn't exposed to a lot of opponents practicing such styles in the arenas.

…The tournament was going to change that, however. With the valuable prizes added into the mix, people who would usually not waste time in the Dreamscape were bound to show up, lured by the scent of rare Memories and Echoes. Even people from lesser Legacy clans would, without a doubt, be tempted to participate.

All this culminates in him mastering the 3rd step of shadow dance which literally required him to live lives as different people in order to gain insight.

Sunny could guess that mastering the third step of his battle style was tied to the fact that he had lived through countless nightmares and lost himself in them, becoming truly shapeless and formless… forgetting himself and turning into other people completely.

That observation was in line with how he had initially made progress to the third step of Shadow Step, back in the arena of the Red Colosseum, where he shadowed numerous Nightmare Creatures. Back then, he had almost lost himself, as well, but stopped at the last moment, fearing that he would not be able to come back.

Being trapped in the nightmares had made that frightening step for him, and so, he had approached the very edge of a breakthrough. The final piece of the puzzle had been trying to shadow the epitome of formlessness — another Shadow, Nightmare.

All this is important because after learning the 4th step of shadow dance Sunless becomes even more cracked, being at the level of or above Modret whose ability requires him to learn how to use the powers of someone else better than them despite them having used it all their life.

And yet. Both he and Nephis have to get good, because Morgan exists.

Today, the situation was different. Sunny was at a disadvantage, but he could confidently defend himself. He was older, stronger, and more experienced... his mastery of Shadow Dance had improved a lot, too.


That said... the problem was...


'What the... the hell... she is insane!'


Although Morgan's battle style was too sophisticated and strangely elusive to be absorbed by him in a short amount of time, he did manage to glean a few things about it - enough to be able to predict the general flow of her movements.


However, that flow was flawless, entirely devoid of any vulnerability he could exploit. What was the point of knowing her moves in advance if he couldn't do anything about it? She fought in a way that left him with no choices. It was as though there was a steel cage around him, and its sharp bars were slowly constricting. Soon enough, he would be caught and cut into pieces by them.


Sunny knew that if the enemy had no vulnerabilities, the best way to defeat them was to create some. So, he tried to lure Morgan into several insidious traps - to no avail. She seemed to see straight through them, solving the puzzles he presented in an instant.


Even all this time later...


She was still like an insurmountable obstacle for him. The savage, but simultaneously chillingly calculating deadliness of her perfectly lethal skill was like a work of art.

Yet, despite Morgan being epitome of skill she is below Saints because the combat syles of Saints transcend the combat of lesser Mortals, only by becoming a Saint will your combat ability reach such a level. No amount of training will let you reach this level.

Saints themselves have better Instinctive reactions than everyone in Re zero due to being able to consciously or instincitvely control each and every muscle, nerve and tendon in the body.

Nephis was strong and swift, but fighting against three enemies was a losing affair. Neither Moonveil nor the Reflections were weak, and they had the priceless advantage of being able to attack her simultaneously from all directions, working together to mangle her body and end her life.

All Nephis had was her swordsmanship… but that was what she knew best.

Everything seemed to disappear into the melodious song of steel. Her mind was cleansed of all unnecessary thoughts, entering a state of absolute, transcendent concentration.

A million observations, conclusions, and calculations were being conceived in it at the same time.

Nephis knew her every muscle, every tendon, every bone, every nerve. Her essence flowed and raged, enhancing her body just at the right time, and in just the right amount.

The length of her sword, the tensile strength of its silvery blade. The multitude of forces affecting what each impact did, and how it was resolved. The movements of her enemies, and those of her own — all of it was like a complicated dance that followed a beautiful logic, and one who understood that logic could set the pace and cadence of the dance.

Above it all was another, much more labyrinthine layer. The layer of skill and intent. Nephis understood them well, too — granted, her insight was inferior to what Cassie was capable of, and Sunny seemed to be as well. But it was enough to read what the enemy would do, most of the time.

So, she held on.

Her sword was like a flowing stream of silver metal, moving so fast that it almost seemed to turn into a sphere around her. Her every step, every move were flawlessly calculated and optimal, allowing her to defend against the three enemies at the same time. She blocked, deflected, and evaded a suffocating onslaught of blows, preventing Moonveil from making her bleed.

All this is below Saint Sunless who is able to change sword styles despite it requiring you to literally rewrite how your nervous system, muscles and tendons etc would need to be changed as well, instinctively and should reach the level of where their swordstyle becomes an expression of the world.

The possibilities seemed endless.

Best of all, the four Saints were almost like an open book to him. Now that Sunny's own Transcendent Battle Art was complete, he found it easier to read similar techniques that belonged to others. His already formidable mastery of Shadow Dance took another leap, teasing him with an alluring scent of unknown mysteries.

He could vaguely feel what lay beyond…

For Shadow Dance, the ability to mimic the Attributes of other living beings.

For his Battle Art… the ability to incorporate his will into the movements of his sword.

Just like the nebulous archer of the Shadow Realm had incorporated death into the black arrows.

Even in the rush of battle, Sunny could not help but notice that there was a common trait between these two future breakthroughs.

It was that… neither was truly only about combat.

In fact, he could not even call the next evolution of his technique a Supreme Battle Art. Because it was not really a technique, or limited to battle.

It was just what being Supreme meant.

And just like that, a seed of a different kind of understanding was planted in Sunny's mind.

Such that Saints themselves cannot fathom it or begin to understand or reach it because at it's core is Will.

Before the first drop of blood even hit the ground, Sunny and Anvil had already exchanged a hundred more blows, moving away like a rolling disaster.

'I think... I can sense it.'

All this time, Sunny had been learning how Anvil fought through Shadow Dance. The Sovereign's battle art was deep and complicated... strange, even, impossible to fathom in a short amount of time. But now, he was starting to realize why the King of Swords seemed so unassailable despite not being that much stronger.

There, in the very essence of his battle art, being used as a weapon…

Was the Will.

 

[karo_senpaii]

We all just forgetting saint?
Profile is incomplete if not sunny just summons ravenous fiend and he just stomps Reinhard with just his will.

What is also Reinhard answer to sunny layered death manipulation? Or his layered soul manipulation?