Oh yeah we’re doing this; Mario Mario vs Sonic the Hedgehog [3-9-0]

[IDK3465]

GUYS SHUT THE HELL UP I'M TRYING TO WRITE DOWN MARIO'S SPEED AMPS

 

[LaserPrecision]

What? Isn't Sonic's AD something that's supposed to kick in when he's being overwhelmed? I don't remember a single instance of Sonic initially statstomping somebody and then growing even more powerful mid-battle. He's not Broly.

Going by Battle, his AD kicks in when he "actually has something to protect". That's when we see the biggest/most egregious instances of it. It is hardly ever useful when the opponent is near or below his level (Broly's AD is also not that crazy when facing people weaker than him either. It's also at its best against stronger people tho).

So I agree with you here, it's not much of a factor since Sonic already stats with an advantage in AP, and the speed increase'll hardly be noticeable.

 

[AyOgUyS]

GUYS SHUT THE HELL UP I'M TRYING TO WRITE DOWN MARIO'S SPEED AMPS

oops mb lol

 

[Causalist]

It's hard to cast a vote when it's so hard to keep in mind what's standard equipment and what's optional equipment for both of them. Does Mario have the bottomless glove and a bunch of 1-Ups? If so, Sonic is gonna have a hell of a hard time bypassing that in this specific key.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Fair enough. But still, the LS gap is so astronomical that every second Sonic isn't using the Spin Dash or Boost, he's extremely vulnerable to being restrained. Mario won't instantly go for a choke, yes, but when he's up against such a fast opponent, the only logical thing to do is to boost his own speed or somehow take away Sonic's.

Restraining him is more in-character for Mario, so that's fine. Especially when pressured against a foe that restraint is the obvious counter. That said, with Sonic's senses, skill, and speed amps, I find it dubious Mario would ever catch him.

 

[ARandomDude127]

What? Isn't Sonic's AD something that's supposed to kick in when he's being overwhelmed? I don't remember a single instance of Sonic initially statstomping somebody and then growing even more powerful mid-battle. He's not Broly.

Also doesn’t Mario HAVE AD himself?? That’s like one of the only reasons why I thought this battle would be somewhat close.

Yeah, and Sonic can use Chaos Control to BFR + Seal Mario in another dimension, or Transmutating him into Rings via Ring Time

WHY DOES HE HAVE CHAOS EMERALDS AS STANDARD EQUIPMENT

Uhh, I mean, do the Emeralds technically scale above Sonic himself? If so then I mean technically I could restrict them from him.

 

[AyOgUyS]

That said, with Sonic's senses, skill, and speed amps, I find it dubious Mario would ever catch him.

That's fair. I'll wait for @IDK3465 to finish their Mario speed amp list in case that offers something.

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Sonic’s Chaos Powers are also probably an issue here, especially Avatar and Chaos Control

 

[AyOgUyS]

Also doesn’t Mario HAVE AD himself?? That’s like one of the only reasons why I thought this battle would be somewhat close.

I'm not sure how mid combat applicable Mario's AD is.

WHY DOES HE HAVE CHAOS EMERALDS AS STANDARD EQUIPMENT

Sonic's only standard equipment should be his shoes, a chili dog, and like some rings.

 

[ARandomDude127]

I'm not sure how mid combat applicable Mario's AD is.

Mario’s AD with Bowser’s Cards allow him to get stronger in proportion to how much damage he takes + he has like 10 other stat amps and forms of Damage Reduction iirc.

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Also doesn’t Mario HAVE AD himself?? That’s like one of the only reasons why I thought this battle would be somewhat close.

WHY DOES HE HAVE CHAOS EMERALDS AS STANDARD EQUIPMENT

Uhh, I mean, do the Emeralds technically scale above Sonic himself? If so then I mean technically I could restrict them from him.

He also has Item Boxes too so I guess if him and Mario wanted to do a power-up off they could

 

[AyOgUyS]

Mario’s AD with Bowser’s Cards allow him to get stronger in proportion to how much damage he takes + he has like 10 other stat amps and forms of Damage Reduction iirc.

My question is: how much do said amps actually boost him and how much damage does his damage reduction actually reduce?

 

[ARandomDude127]

My question is: how much do said amps actually boost him and how much damage does his damage reduction actually reduce?

I mean it elaborates on the profile, I’m trying to type it all out but Vsbw on mobile SUCKS and my page keeps refreshing

 

[IDK3465]

oh. hm...what are the multipliers for mario's stat amps anyway? if he can boost his speed enough to keep up with the Spin Dash and Boost, he could catch Sonic and LS choke diff him!

Ok, uhhhh

• Can naturally slow down his perception of time
• Zone speed allows Mario to amp his speed to a near blitz
• Battle Cards increase his speed by 35%
• Blue Peppers allow him to attack before others can do anything
• Speed Scarf increases Mario's speed by 10% and Speed Scarf DX increases it by 20%
• Dash Mushroom, which can greatly amplify Mario's speed, and the Golden Dash Mushroom, which is a more potent variant of the Dash Mushroom
• Fast Dash, and Jet Run badges
• I think Bonds increase speed too? idk, can't remember
• AD bullshit
• Speed Beans
• probably more I'm forgetting

 

[AyOgUyS]

• Zone speed allows Mario to amp his speed to a near blitz
• Battle Cards increase his speed by 35%
• Blue Peppers allow him to attack before others can do anything
• Speed Scarf increases Mario's speed by 10% and Speed Scarf DX increases it by 20%

I feel like these combined should be enough for Mario to at least keep up. Sonic doesn't like constantly use Spin Dashes anyway.

 

[AyOgUyS]

With Battle Cards. Mario can increase the power of his Boots and Hammer up to 50%, his defense up to 50%, and his speed, for a limited time, up to 35%
with Bowser's Battle Cards. Mario can increase his power in proportion to the amount of damage he's taken during battle

These could help Mario close the gap.

 

[AyOgUyS]

with Bowser's Battle Cards. Mario can increase his power in proportion to the amount of damage he's taken during battle

Since Mario has the Power Star here, he also gets: (Power Stars can heal accumulated damage)

So not only is he increasing his power with Battle Cards, he's healing from the damage Sonic inflicts and is stacking several speed amps, one of which is a near blitz. I think Mario actually has a shot here.

Edit: Oh and Mario has 1-Up Mushrooms as standard equipment so he gets an extra life as well!

 

[Causalist]

Ok, uhhhh

• Can naturally slow down his perception of time
• Zone speed allows Mario to amp his speed to a near blitz
• Battle Cards increase his speed by 35%
• Blue Peppers allow him to attack before others can do anything
• Speed Scarf increases Mario's speed by 10% and Speed Scarf DX increases it by 20%
• Dash Mushroom, which can greatly amplify Mario's speed, and the Golden Dash Mushroom, which is a more potent variant of the Dash Mushroom
• Fast Dash, and Jet Run badges
• I think Bonds increase speed too? idk, can't remember
• AD bullshit
• Speed Beans
• probably more I'm forgetting

Thanks for the compilation, this makes the summary I'm currently writing a lot easier.

With Battle Cards. Mario can increase the power of his Boots and Hammer up to 50%, his defense up to 50%, and his speed, for a limited time, up to 35%
with Bowser's Battle Cards. Mario can increase his power in proportion to the amount of damage he's taken during battle

These could help Mario close the gap.

Based on what you and IDK3456 are saying, it seems that Mario's standard equipment here is.... everything? That doesn't seem very fair when Sonic's standard and optional equipment are more clearly defined. I mean, just look at the equipment section of Mario's profile. Could it be any more vague? Which "power ups and items is it referring to for each?

 

[AyOgUyS]

Based on what you and IDK3456 are saying, it seems that Mario's standard equipment here is.... everything? That doesn't seem very fair when Sonic's standard and optional equipment are more clearly defined. I mean, just look at the equipment section of Mario's profile. Could it be any more vague? Which "power ups and items is it referring to for each?

Fair enough. OP, would you mind more clearly defining what equipment Mario gets and doesn't get in this fight?

 

[LaserPrecision]

How in-character, let alone stacked all together. I know some of these are from spin-off games that are never used again anywhere else in the series (even when they would've been helpful), so for some of them I'm doubtful.

 

[IDK3465]

Since Mario has the Power Star here, he also gets: (Power Stars can heal accumulated damage)

So not only is he increasing his power with Battle Cards, he's healing from the damage Sonic inflicts and is stacking several speed amps, one of which is a near blitz. I think Mario actually has a shot here.

Edit: Oh and Mario has 1-Up Mushrooms as standard equipment so he gets an extra life as well!

He also has invincibility items that makes him impervious to stuff that normally 2-shots him, as well as allows him to one-shot bosses (I think, idk, it’s a little inconsistent)

 

[AyOgUyS]

How in-character, let alone stacked all together. I know some of these are from spin-off games that are never used again anywhere else in the series (even when they would've been helpful), so for some of them I'm doubtful.

Tbh I dunno we need more Mario supporters here

 

[ARandomDude127]

Fair enough. OP, would you mind more clearly defining what equipment Mario gets and doesn't get in this fight?

Considering for some ungodly reason VSBW allows Sonic to get Chaos Emeralds as Standard Equipment, Mario can have everything within his own Standard Equipment (which just lists Hammer, Power-Ups, Power Stars, and items).

It’s hard to tell what Mario gets in his Standard Equipment since it barely elaborates, but I’m assuming he gets everything that ISNT what’s on the Optional Equipment.

 

[AyOgUyS]

It’s hard to tell what Mario gets in his Standard Equipment since it barely elaborates, but I’m assuming he gets everything that ISNT what’s on the Optional Equipment.

Ok I'll roll with that then

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Considering for some ungodly reason VSBW allows Sonic to get Chaos Emeralds as Standard Equipment, Mario can have everything within his own Standard Equipment (which just lists Hammer, Power-Ups, Power Stars, and items).

It’s hard to tell what Mario gets in his Standard Equipment since it barely elaborates, but I’m assuming he gets everything that ISNT what’s on the Optional Equipment.

Pretty sure you can give Sonic a certain amount and color of Chaos Emerald

 

[ARandomDude127]

Pretty sure you can give Sonic a certain amount and color of Chaos Emerald

Then he’ll get one, aaaand let’s say Yellow cuz it’s my favorite color.

 

[IDK3465]

How in-character, let alone stacked all together. I know some of these are from spin-off games that are never used again anywhere else in the series (even when they would've been helpful), so for some of them I'm doubtful.

I mean, it’s not like Mario typically carries around all the shit he’s gathered over the years at all times, so obviously he’s not gonna use them if he literally doesn’t have access to them. (Plus, why would they shoehorn in RPG items into the main games?)

I think, if Mario had access to all his stuff, he would probably use a lot of it, given what we see in the RPGs, but since we never see him with everything, it’s a little hard to tell

 

[AyOgUyS]

He also has invincibility items that makes him impervious to stuff that normally 2-shots him, as well as allows him to one-shot bosses (I think, idk, it’s a little inconsistent)

Scans?

 

[AyOgUyS]

I think, if Mario had access to all his stuff, he would probably use a lot of it

Especially when his opponent is blitzing and beating him up?

 

[LaserPrecision]

I mean, it’s not like Mario typically carries around all the shit he’s gathered over the years at all times, so obviously he’s not gonna use them if he literally doesn’t have access to them. (Plus, why would they shoehorn in RPG items into the main games?)

I think, if Mario had access to all his stuff, he would probably use a lot of it, given what we see in the RPGs, but since we never see him with everything, it’s a little hard to tell

Him using power-ups is fine to assume, but I think assuming he'll use every last power-up and stack them like a madman relentlessly isn't accurate. Looking at cutscenes in game, how often does he even use power-ups he has? I imagine it's not frequent, so assuming he'll stack every one he has simultaneously seems like a stretch to me.

That said, if the amps can't really be quantified (bar the 35% increase one) then I'd say Sonic's is faster. His (spin dash) has demonstrated freezing people who were previously much faster than him (I calculated it to be roughly a 350x increase, but it'd likely be higher if we took into account them being faster than him to start with). His Super Peel Out is stated to be faster than the Spin Dash, and his Homing Attack can land dozens of blows instantly before his opponent even gets the chance to react (Who are comparable to Sonic and his friends). Not to mention the Homing Attack also makes the opponent flinch from the speed and ap of it. So if Mario gets hit by that, I think it's damn near over. He can't react to it due to it being too fast and Sonic being more skilled, and Sonic already starts off nearly 4x stronger. Getting hit tens of times instantly might just incapacitate him on the spot (Considering it smashed up Eggman's mech that was fighting equally with Sonic's friends).

 

[IDK3465]

Scans?

Here is the most blatant example (don't know how we treat the maker games tho)

Him using power-ups is fine to assume, but I think assuming he'll use every last power-up and stack them like a madman relentlessly isn't accurate. Looking at cutscenes in game, how often does he even use power-ups he has? I imagine it's not frequent, so assuming he'll stack every one he has simultaneously seems like a stretch to me.

That said, if the amps can't really be quantified (bar the 35% increase one) then I'd say Sonic's is faster. His (spin dash) has demonstrated freezing people who were previously much faster than him (I calculated it to be roughly a 350x increase, but it'd likely be higher if we took into account them being faster than him to start with). His Super Peel Out is stated to be faster than the Spin Dash, and his Homing Attack can land dozens of blows instantly before his opponent even gets the chance to react (Who are comparable to Sonic and his friends). Not to mention the Homing Attack also makes the opponent flinch from the speed and ap of it. So if Mario gets hit by that, I think it's damn near over. He can't react to it due to it being too fast and Sonic being more skilled, and Sonic already starts off nearly 4x stronger. Getting hit tens of times instantly might just incapacitate him on the spot (Considering it smashed up Eggman's mech that was fighting equally with Sonic's friends).

Hold on, hold on, isn't it a rule that you aren't allowed to have speed be a major factor for winning if your opponent is normally far faster than you without speed equal? Why are we arguing about who blitzes the other when Mario is normally trillions of times faster?

 

[Omegabronic]

What? Isn't Sonic's AD something that's supposed to kick in when he's being overwhelmed? I don't remember a single instance of Sonic initially statstomping somebody and then growing even more powerful mid-battle. He's not Broly.

Different types of AD, there is one from when he's being overwelmed that is greater than his normal one, but he still has ones to passively grow faster and stronger

Fair enough. But still, the LS gap is so astronomical that every second Sonic isn't using the Spin Dash or Boost, he's extremely vulnerable to being restrained. Mario won't instantly go for a choke, yes, but when he's up against such a fast opponent, the only logical thing to do is to boost his own speed or somehow take away Sonic's.

If Mario tries to hold Sonic down... he will just teleport away, or stop time, or use any of his several haxes to get away... that is not a viable strategy here

I mean has Sonic ever actually used Ring Time against non-Badniks?

Yes? The Ring Time mission in Gens is in a level without Badniks even, also I don't see why he wouldn't in this case, Mario's resists tho, so

 

[Omegabronic]

Going by Battle, his AD kicks in when he "actually has something to protect". That's when we see the biggest/most egregious instances of it. It is hardly ever useful when the opponent is near or below his level (Broly's AD is also not that crazy when facing people weaker than him either. It's also at its best against stronger people tho).

So I agree with you here, it's not much of a factor since Sonic already stats with an advantage in AP, and the speed increase'll hardly be noticeable.

Speed Simulator stuff, he grows faster with every step he takes... don't forget the official Roblox game dude

 

[AyOgUyS]

Hold on, hold on, isn't it a rule that you aren't allowed to have speed be a major factor for winning if your opponent is normally far faster than you without speed equal? Why are we arguing about who blitzes the other when Mario is normally trillions of times faster?

IDK has a point. I don't think Sonic is allowed to win through speed.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Speed Simulator stuff, he grows faster with every step he takes... don't forget the official Roblox game dude

My comment implicitly includes Speed Sim. I just said it was basically useless since in almost every fight ever against comparable people it hardly makes any difference. It'll contribute very little to his advantage so I see no reason to fully address it.

Hold on, hold on, isn't it a rule that you aren't allowed to have speed be a major factor for winning if your opponent is normally far faster than you without speed equal? Why are we arguing about who blitzes the other when Mario is normally trillions of times faster?

It wouldn't matter if speed was unequalized because Sonic's AD would kick in and make them equal anyways. Then he'd be able to blitz with his stat amps anyways, so I don't see why that matters.

IDK has a point. I don't think Sonic is allowed to win through speed.

Same as above. Sonic would be able to speed blitz even if speed was unequalized.

I also don't think he needs the speedblitz to win. He's far more skilled to the point that outside of power-ups I don't think Mario could even land a single hit on Sonic. He's also far more agile and mobile, and has a notable ap advantage on top of AP amps that can let Sonic one-shot people equal to him (Ichikoro guage).

 

[AyOgUyS]

Speed Simulator stuff, he grows faster with every step he takes... don't forget the official Roblox game dude

Has this "faster with every step" growth literally ever mattered in a fight?

 

[AyOgUyS]

It wouldn't matter if speed was unequalized because Sonic's AD would kick in and make them equal anyways. Then he'd be able to blitz with his stat amps anyways, so I don't see why that matters.

I get that in a few situations, even like Classic Sonic can jump from what, FTL to Infinite? But that level of growth is rarely ever demonstrated again. If speed was unequal, would Sonic's AD really be that consistent for him to instantly grow by what, millions of times? If it's really so powerful he can grow that much faster in the midst of a hard battle, why doesn't that always happen?

 

[IDK3465]

It wouldn't matter if speed was unequalized because Sonic's AD would kick in and make them equal anyways. Then he'd be able to blitz with his stat amps anyways, so I don't see why that matters.

Same as above. Sonic would be able to speed blitz even if speed was unequalized.

I also don't think he needs the speedblitz to win. He's far more skilled to the point that outside of power-ups I don't think Mario could even land a single hit on Sonic. He's also far more agile and mobile, and has a notable ap advantage on top of AP amps that can let Sonic one-shot people equal to him (Ichikoro guage).

Does it take time for Sonic's speed to equalize with those faster than him? Cause even with my limited knowledge on the series, I can remember several times where Sonic was being outsped by another character, and after the main moment the amp happened (Generations), it wasn't demonstrated ever again, which'd be weird if it's this passive thing Sonic can do

 

[Omegabronic]

I feel like these combined should be enough for Mario to at least keep up. Sonic doesn't like constantly use Spin Dashes anyway.

That's... his main move and attack method, don't forget, the Homing Attack IS a Spin Dash too... also Sonic can just... Chaos Control Time Manip to invalidate all of these options

Also Sonic has SEVERAL speed amplification methods on top of the Spin Dash:

• With Hyper Mode
• With Power Sneakers
• With Speed Up
• With Power Cores(Each being a 2x Boost[Link currently broken])

The last one in particular will be troublesome for Mario, as Sonic can hold a maximum of 3 at a time, making him 8x faster overall

 

[Omegabronic]

Has this "faster with every step" growth literally ever mattered in a fight?

In an atrition battle, Sonic would EVENTUALLY be faster than Mario in this case... I don't believe the fight will go on for that long tho