Minor Naruto Revisions | Part 1

[Soulking22334]

Susanoo was melting from Mei's ability, which btw, doesn't have any stated heat output

There's no mention in the story of the lava's temperature, so I'll assume it's much higher than normal. That's your logic. but Principle of Minimal Departure exist here. Unless something is stated, shown, or otherwise implied to be different than its IRL counterpart, it’s assumed to be the same

her lava look like lava act like one so no shit buddy you can't get the bs pass

The burden of proof is not on me, you find it impossible to believe that the PS can resist those levels of heat, and the evidence you provide is that a much weaker Ribcage Susanoo was melting from Mei's ability, which btw, doesn't have any stated heat output. None of the facts are against me. Seeing as how you refuse to read the OP, I will send the scan showing PS Susanoo eating the TBB from Kurama:

Yes, I find it impossible for something that melts in lava to suddenly increase its thermal resistance by 100,000 times in order to withstand an explosion reaching millions of degrees Celsius.



Is the difference between ordinary and perfect Susanoo really that great, and does Madara possess such a vast amount of chakra to multiply its resistance?
By the way, I'm not convinced as to why the burden of proof isn't on you, even though you're the one who made the claim in the first place.





Whoever makes a claim bears the burden of proof.

Go to post 49, that's the first disrespectful thing he said.

I think your opinion is ridiculous ,that's not an insult, but it seems like one of us is a sensitive child.

 

[Foriaa]

I'll respond later tonight, calc has to get it's new value accepted before anything

 

[Soulking22334]

I'll respond later tonight, calc has to get it's new value accepted before anything

sure, sure, sweetie. There’s no need to worry about this. It’s time for bed. Give the device to your mom, go ahead and have your glass of milk, and don’t pay attention to people online or bring up topics that have nothing to do with the discussion.

 

[Foriaa]

I’m actually crying, this shit means a lot to you doesn’t it

 

[Antvasima]

sure, sure, sweetie. There’s no need to worry about this. It’s time for bed. Give the device to your mom, go ahead and have your glass of milk, and don’t pay attention to people online or bring up topics that have nothing to do with the discussion.

@Soulking22334

You are required to strive to be considerate and polite in this community, and you are definitely not doing so currently.

 

[Testarossa002]

I didn't think this was going to be a big deal

The Juubi flicking away Gyuki's BB

It hadn't exploded yet. It's just a dense ball of chakra atp

The Juubi no selling his own BB

Not sure i'll call this no-selling since the juubi is visibly affected by it. I remember someone specifically mentioning how the ten tails burnt itself in the next panel

Gyuki no selling his own BB

Same thing. He's visibly hurt by the bomb

Son Gokū and Kokuō discharging BB's point blank

We don't see the aftermath and given the precedent above, I doubt they no-sold it

Shukaku, Matatabi, Isobu, Son Gokū, Kokuō, Saiken, Chōmei, Gyūki, and Kurama. There Jinchuriki will have the same resistance so (Naruto, Killer B, Obito, Madara etc)

Sure

• All Susanoo users that scale/upscale from Edo Madara, who can withstand Kurama's BB point blank:
  • Sasuke & Kakashi
• All Ōtsutsuki that scale/upscale from Kaguya, who took 9 Bijuu Dama Rasenshuriken's, all imbued with different chakra from TB's, one of them being Son Gokū's:
  • Shibai, Isshiki, Kawaki, Boruto, Momoshiki, Kinshiki, Hagoromo and Hamura
• Hashirama (Can palm a BB then no sell it's explosion point blank, later on can overwhelm Madara's Susanoo Swords Imbued with BB using Shinsu Senju.)
• A3 (Had an extended fight with Gyuki who praised his resilience and durability, and was incapable of damaging him in their fight)
  • Potentially A4, due to having the same blood as A3, which allowed him to come out of Mabui's Ethereal Transmission Jutsu relatively unharmed

Sure

All that being said, I don't agree with Amaterasu potentially scaling. The only scaling it has to people who actually no-sell bijuu bombs is A4
And that's likely due to the fact that Amaterasu cannot be extinguished rather than its sheer heat output. For like half a chapter, It didn't even burn off A's arm significantly

 

[Foriaa]

Ama being ass:

• Amaterasu sitting on a buncha leaves, with no indication of vapor being released implying there's no phase change happening.
• Amaterasu again sitting on top of the Uchiha Hideout, with no vapor or implication of something melting, simply sitting there as decor.
• Amaterasu sitting again on Madara armor, with no indication of melting happening.
• Amaterasu again sitting on A4's amputated arm, with zero vapor/gas being released.
• Amaterasu again sitting on an unconscious Karin's back, taking it sweet time burning through her clothes and leaving a slight burn mark on her back.

ping

ping

ping

The overwhelming majority of Amaterasu's appearances do not visually support the level of heat being proposed, therefore, using it as the basis for antifeats, which require visual evidence, would also be unreliable. Are yall fine with me completely removing it from the discussion?

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

Ama being ass:

• Amaterasu sitting on a buncha leaves, with no indication of vapor being released implying there's no phase change happening.
• Amaterasu again sitting on top of the Uchiha Hideout, with no vapor or implication of something melting, simply sitting there as decor.
• Amaterasu sitting again on Madara armor, with no indication of melting happening.
• Amaterasu again sitting on A4's amputated arm, with zero vapor/gas being released.
• Amaterasu again sitting on an unconscious Karin's back, taking it sweet time burning through her clothes and leaving a slight burn mark on her back.

The overwhelming majority of Amaterasu's appearances do not visually support the level of heat being proposed, therefore, using it as the basis for antifeats, which require visual evidence, would also be unreliable. Are yall fine with me completely removing it from the discussion?

The problem is that Amaterasu still deals burn damage, so it simply makes no sense for it to be unaffected by characters' heat resistance. Not that it isn't strange for the pinnacle of the fire style to fail to burn leaves while generating enough heat to form cumulonimbus clouds. This doesn't prove Amaterasu is out of the equation; rather, it shows that certain visual depictions contradict the narrative.

 

[Soulking22334]

There's no mention in the story of the lava's temperature, so I'll assume it's much higher than normal. That's your logic. but Principle of Minimal Departure exist here. Unless something is stated, shown, or otherwise implied to be different than its IRL counterpart, it’s assumed to be the same

her lava look like lava act like one so no shit buddy you can't get the bs pass

Yes, I find it impossible for something that melts in lava to suddenly increase its thermal resistance by 100,000 times in order to withstand an explosion reaching millions of degrees Celsius.



Is the difference between ordinary and perfect Susanoo really that great, and does Madara possess such a vast amount of chakra to multiply its resistance?
By the way, I'm not convinced as to why the burden of proof isn't on you, even though you're the one who made the claim in the first place.





Whoever makes a claim bears the burden of proof.

I think your opinion is ridiculous ,that's not an insult, but it seems like one of us is a sensitive child.

it have been 2 days with no response

 

[Soulking22334]

The problem is that Amaterasu still deals burn damage, so it simply makes no sense for it to be unaffected by characters' heat resistance. Not that it isn't strange for the pinnacle of the fire style to fail to burn leaves while generating enough heat to form cumulonimbus clouds. This doesn't prove Amaterasu is out of the equation; rather, it shows that certain visual depictions contradict the narrative.

if juubi can no sell his bb ( that cause millions of degrees of heat) then can this be explained

 

[Arkenis]

if juubi can no sell his bb ( that cause millions of degrees of heat) then can this be explained

Now amaterasu doesn't contradict the scaling

 

[Soulking22334]

Now amaterasu doesn't contradict the scaling

but the scaling itself is flawed

 

[Soulking22334]

sun tem via a a single data book line < why it takes time to turn them to ash???

a fodder level jutsu or what???

 

[Foriaa]

The problem is that Amaterasu still deals burn damage, so it simply makes no sense for it to be unaffected by characters' heat resistance. Not that it isn't strange for the pinnacle of the fire style to fail to burn leaves while generating enough heat to form cumulonimbus clouds. This doesn't prove Amaterasu is out of the equation; rather, it shows that certain visual depictions contradict the narrative.

That's fine, but as I said, it's visuals are almost always inconsistent, meaning the antifeats with it are unreliable, but that's also assuming the "like the sun" statement is referring to just it's surface.

it have been 2 days with no response

That's because the thread's been closed for a while, some of the calc values changed so I had to get it re eval'd.

Is the difference between ordinary and perfect Susanoo really that great, and does Madara possess such a vast amount of chakra to multiply its resistance?
By the way, I'm not convinced as to why the burden of proof isn't on you, even though you're the one who made the claim in the first place.
Whoever makes a claim bears the burden of proof.

I've responded to this multiple times. It not my burden to prove that all Susanoo stages share comparable thermal resistance, which is you're suggesting seeing as how you find it impossible for one to melt and the other to be completely fine. What I said multiple times now is that PS Madara's Susanoo is granted that scaling, not Ribcage.

My claim : PS Madara can resist that level of heat, not that every stage of Susanoo can
Your response : Ribcage was melted and asking me if the "difference between ordinary and perfect Susanoo really that great?"

So, in response to my claim, you brought up a weaker stage of Susanoo and based your rebuttal entirely on finding such a large difference in thermal resistance implausible. Do you understand my point now?

 

[Floxy178]

By the way, I'm not convinced as to why the burden of proof isn't on you, even though you're the one who made the claim in the first place.





Whoever makes a claim bears the burden of proof.

If you think that something is an anti feat/contradiction, you're the one who's making the claim. That applies to amaterasu statement interpretation, lava temperature you mentioned, etc.

Because going for low end scenario when indexing isn't same as assuming it can't be higher than that and it being higher is contradiction. If you claim so, you'll need to prove why.

 

[Foriaa]

Now amaterasu doesn't contradict the scaling

It absolutely does. Please engage with the counter arguments I've already presented or stop bringing up the same talking points that were addressed.

 

[Arkenis]

I have and you haven't engaged with my points, just brought up visuals as a reason why you get to ignore the story. Answer his question lmao

 

[Foriaa]

I have and you haven't engaged with my points, just brought up visuals as a reason why you get to ignore the story.

You said we can't "ignore" the story, I said we absolutely can dismiss plot points if there's inconsistency, and after showing a handful of those, this is how you respond. As for his question, I have answered it multiple times.

3 pages, and this CRT has not been productive at all. Amaterasu points were already responded to, in detail, multiple times now, and the oppositions can not seem to formulate an argument against it, only responding by saying "you can't ignore the story", ts not real

At this point, perhaps turning this into a staff thread might be more productive.

 

[Arkenis]

3 pages, and this CRT has not been productive at all. Amaterasu points were already responded to, in detail, multiple times now, and the oppositions can not seem to formulate an argument against it, only responding by saying "you can't ignore the story", ts not real

Yet you can't respond why you get to ignore it.

At this point, perhaps turning this into a staff thread might be more productive.

If staff can address the ignorance in ignoring the story hopefully it will be productive.

 

[Foriaa]

 

[Soulking22334]

My claim : PS Madara can resist that level of heat, not that every stage of Susanoo can
Your response : Ribcage was melted and asking me if the "difference between ordinary and perfect Susanoo really that great?"

So, in response to my claim, you brought up a weaker stage of Susanoo and based your rebuttal entirely on finding such a large difference in thermal resistance implausible. Do you understand my point now?

so the ribcage susanoo can be melted by lava but the perfect susanoo can survive millions of degrees , let assume its 1 million degree and lava is 1000 degree( average)

so according to your logic, the thermal resistance of the perfect Susanoo has increased a thousandfold.

greate , can you see the problem here

It not my burden to prove that all Susanoo stages share comparable thermal resistance, which is you're suggesting seeing as how you find it impossible for one to melt and the other to be completely fine

1000 greater granted, ok great logic here

lava temperature you mentioned

Principle of Minimal Departure

If you think that something is an anti feat/contradiction, you're the one who's making the claim

I doubt his claim, so it stands to reason that he should prove his claim ,not that I should prove my doubts

it's as if you were saying to a police officer who doubts your statement, “Why are you questioning me? You're the one who needs to explain where you were that night.”

 

[DavidTPPM]

Lowkey could just be similar to how AP≠DC. Because narratively it's clear that Amaterasu is clearly supposed to be top of the crop in terms of fire style heat to the point Jiraya couldn't believe the fire breathing toads mouth was burned. We also see that when focused Amaterasu can actually just instantly erase metal like it's nothing against Shin. Yet the anti feats being presented would make it inferior to even regular fire if taken at face value.

There's also the infamous lightning heat scaling. We see many shinobi even as weak as kid Sasuke cover themselves in lightning for prolonged periods of time without getting burned, so something like samurai armor or Kage level fighters having resistance to take high heater would be consistent.

 

[Foriaa]

greate , can you see the problem here

1000 greater granted, ok great logic here

so the ribcage susanoo can be melted by lava but the perfect susanoo can survive millions of degrees

Yup! that is exactly what I’m proposing. Madara’s Ribcage Susanoo can be melted by an unknown level of heat, while his PS can withstand the BB's thermal output.

So, when are you going to present an argument that has not already been addressed?

 

[Foriaa]

There's also the infamous lightning heat scaling. We see many shinobi even as weak as kid Sasuke cover themselves in lightning for prolonged periods of time without getting burned, so something like samurai armor or Kage level fighters having resistance to take high heater would be consistent.

I was planning on adding this, for characters that utilize lightning release, but that'll be more as backup.

 

[DavidTPPM]

so the ribcage susanoo can be melted by lava but the perfect susanoo can survive millions of degrees , let assume its 1 million degree and lava is 1000 degree( average)

Why are you assuming lava is 1000 degrees? This is a completely baseless assumption. Mei isn't using natural lava but supernatural lava created from chakra.

I said this in private before but I'm not personally entirely convinced by the OP, but these counter arguments are so incredibly weak and clearly based on bias and spite that it makes the OP look 100% correct by comparison.

"oh if we blindly assume the lowest possible interpretation for everything then it's contradicted"

But no evidence or even a hint of an argument as to WHY should be be restricted to the lowest possible interpretation. It's so crazy reading you say that since the lowest interpretation is contradicted that somehow debunks the argument instead of debunking the lowest interpretation.

 

[Arkenis]

I said this in private before but I'm not personally entirely convinced by the OP, but these counter arguments are so incredibly weak and clearly based on bias and spite that it makes the OP look 100% correct by comparison.

Where did I show bias or spite? If u not implying my arguments then nvm.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Where did I show bias or spite? If u not implying my arguments then nvm.

Yeah I meant the soulking guy

 

[HelloThere1089]

There's no mention in the story of the lava's temperature, so I'll assume it's much higher than normal. That's your logic. but Principle of Minimal Departure exist here. Unless something is stated, shown, or otherwise implied to be different than its IRL counterpart, it’s assumed to be the same

Principle of minimal departure isn't what you think it is. It isn't a formal (or even informal) debate fallacy or an end all be all. It's just a theory that states that people usually think like that when reading something. It has no bearing on author's intent and it isn't a rule that needs to be followed by every reader. It's more so explaining the usual psychology of a reader, not declaring a rule to be followed by scaling communities. I know buzz words are cool and all, but try to research the thing you are quoting.

her lava look like lava act like one so no shit buddy you can't get the bs pass

It's specifically not natural lava in the story. We scale jutsu's to their users. So Boruto throwing purple lightning isn't suddenly 1000s of times slower than his own speed just because it is lightning. Idk what kind of garbage argument is this.

Yes, I find it impossible for something that melts in lava to suddenly increase its thermal resistance by 100,000 times in order to withstand an explosion reaching millions of degrees Celsius.

It's not natural lava. And you finding it impossible says nothing really. Give a logical rebuttal, not an argument from incredulity. Things get stronger in fiction.

Is the difference between ordinary and perfect Susanoo really that great, and does Madara possess such a vast amount of chakra to multiply its resistance?

Maybe. Or maybe the lava isn't natural lava.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Some common arguments that I have seen used here frequently:

1. Amaterasu is the pinnacle of fire jutsu, it cannot be colder than BBs: Why not exactly? Amaterasu can be the hottest fire jutsu and still be colder than a TBB. TBB isn't a fire jutsu so Amaterasu isn't a limiter for it. Even Mei's lava release isn't fire jutsu. Also, I want a scan that says Amaterasu is the pinnacle of fire jutsu specifically because of the heat.

2. Amaterasu is sun's temperature: Yeah, and the exact part of it isn't mentioned. The default assumption would be the lower end, but you can't suddenly use this as a defeater for a calculation when the text never directly says "surface of the sun". The calculation simply supports another interpretation and the sun's core has enough heat to not be a limiter to the TBB's temperature. Once you start to argue that it cannot be hotter than the surface of the sun, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that the lower end interpretation is the intended one. Remember the default assumption of lower ends is taken due to a lack of evidence or clarification, so it isn't the true interpretation anyways.

3. Mei's lava melts something that can withstand TBB: Mei's lava is supernatural made from chakra. It can be hotter than real lava. Just like how lightning jutsu used by FTL characters without a stated speed can be assumed to scale to the user. Idk why this argument even exists tbh. This is like ignoring all of the currently established scaling and saying "lightning jutsu are limited to lightning speed. period."

 

[Floxy178]

Principle of Minimal Departure

going for low end scenario when indexing isn't same as assuming it can't be higher than that and it being higher is contradiction. If you claim so, you'll need to prove why.

That's unless we have a reason to assume otherwise. All of your arguments are about "X is not that strong, prove it" to dismiss feats when feats in question are literally proof themselves.

I doubt his claim, so it stands to reason that he should prove his claim ,not that I should prove my doubts

it's as if you were saying to a police officer who doubts your statement, “Why are you questioning me? You're the one who needs to explain where you were that night.”

No, if someone claims I wasn't at home that night then he should prove it. I'm not obligated to, as lack of evidence doesn't prove anything.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

Some common arguments that I have seen used here frequently:

1. Amaterasu is the pinnacle of fire jutsu, it cannot be colder than BBs: Why not exactly? Amaterasu can be the hottest fire jutsu and still be colder than a TBB. TBB isn't a fire jutsu so Amaterasu isn't a limiter for it. Even Mei's lava release isn't fire jutsu. Also, I want a scan that says Amaterasu is the pinnacle of fire jutsu specifically because of the heat.

Amaterasu deals burn damage, so if it is capable of burning something that a BB doesn't, it has to be hotter. Although this isn't linked to him being the pinnacle of Fire Style.

 

[Soulking22334]

Yup! that is exactly what I’m proposing. Madara’s Ribcage Susanoo can be melted by an unknown level of heat, while his PS can withstand the BB's thermal output.

I didn't know he could increase his Chakra resistance in Susanoo Mode by a factor of 1000. did he really possess that much Chakra?


greate that doesn't make sense


why do we assume that his Chakra could become this much more resistant without any evidence?



also, I want your evidence that the perfect susanoo’s resistance is actually increasing because it is literally his Chakra manifestation, and the difference between regular susanoo and perfect Susanoo lies in size and armor (add-ons like wings and weapons) what ,

Why are you assuming lava is 1000 degrees? This is a completely baseless assumption. Mei isn't using natural lava but supernatural lava created from chakra.

I said this in private before but I'm not personally entirely convinced by the OP, but these counter arguments are so incredibly weak and clearly based on bias and spite that it makes the OP look 100% correct by comparison.

"oh if we blindly assume the lowest possible interpretation for everything then it's contradicted"

But no evidence or even a hint of an argument as to WHY should be be restricted to the lowest possible interpretation. It's so crazy reading you say that since the lowest interpretation is contradicted that somehow debunks the argument instead of debunking the lowest interpretation.

Principle of minimal departure isn't what you think it is. It isn't a formal (or even informal) debate fallacy or an end all be all. It's just a theory that states that people usually think like that when reading something. It has no bearing on author's intent and it isn't a rule that needs to be followed by every reader. It's more so explaining the usual psychology of a reader, not declaring a rule to be followed by scaling communities. I know buzz words are cool and all, but try to research the thing you are quoting.

That's unless we have a reason to assume otherwise. All of your arguments are about "X is not that strong, prove it" to dismiss feats when feats in question are literally proof themselves.

what lighting? natural lighting

natural lighting can destroy Susanoo



is Sasuke stupid? why is he using natural lighting against someone that can tank millions of degrees of heat

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

I didn't know he could increase his Chakra resistance in Susanoo Mode by a factor of 1000. did he really possess that much Chakra?


greate that doesn't make sense


why do we assume that his Chakra could become this much more resistant without any evidence?



also, I want your evidence that the perfect susanoo’s resistance is actually increasing because it is literally his Chakra manifestation, and the difference between regular susanoo and perfect Susanoo lies in size and armor (add-ons like wings and weapons) what ,

what lighting? natural lighting

natural lighting can destroy Susanoo



is Sasuke stupid? why is he using natural lighting against someone that can tank millions of degrees of heat

Sorry, but have you ever seen a natural lightning bolt move at the speed of light? Or take the form of a giant dragon with the energy of a storm? Or perhaps speed-blitz an FTL+ character? No? If not, then this comparison shouldn't be used to limit the verse—just as it isn't used to limit speed.

 

[Foriaa]

why do we assume that his Chakra could become this much more resistant without any evidence?

Is the evidence not the panel I sent, that he can withstand Kurama's TBB with his Susanoo?

natural lighting can destroy Susanoo

Natural lightning in Naruto can release 11 gigatons of tnt. Perfectly normal for it to bust a Susanoo from a dying Itachi.

is Sasuke stupid? why is he using natural lighting against someone that can tank millions of degrees of heat

Anime only, not in the manga.

 

[DavidTPPM]

what lighting? natural lighting

First of all, you outright ignored my arguments.

Second of all, Kirin is both said to be light speed repeatedly AND has power significantly above real lightning.

natural lighting can destroy Susanoo

Huh? It doesn't destroy the susanoo. The entire reason Itachi survives is BECAUSE he blocks with susanoo and we see the susanoo completely unharmed.

Secondly, destroying ≠ burning. Even if it completely pulverized the susanoo it wouldn't mean the susanoo was taken out by its heat rather than by its force.

is Sasuke stupid? why is he using natural lighting against someone that can tank millions of degrees of heat

Oh shit anime filler scenes are now canon?

Someone quick get the low 2-C Bijuu upgrade ready from the anime filler of them creating a parallel universe!!!

Also in that scene Sasuke's Kirin is created without a prior storm iirc, meaning it's not actually natural lightning whatsoever and should be entirely from his chakra

 

[HelloThere1089]

what lighting? natural lighting

natural lighting can destroy Susanoo



is Sasuke stupid? why is he using natural lighting against someone that can tank millions of degrees of heat

You keep making illogical arguments for some reason. Please provide proof that he damaged the susanoo because of its heat specifically. If not then this is another one of your arguments in the trash can.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Amaterasu deals burn damage, so if it is capable of burning something that a BB doesn't, it has to be hotter. Although this isn't linked to him being the pinnacle of Fire Style.

by all means, scale it above TBB then. My rebuttal was specifically about the statement and how it doesn't limit non fire jutsus. It can be higher or lower depending on the evidence.

 

[HelloThere1089]

No, if someone claims I wasn't at home that night then he should prove it. I'm not obligated to, as lack of evidence doesn't prove anything.

Also the fact that a police interrogation isn't a debate. If you argue too well, there's a good chance you'll just piss them off and end up arrested anyways. (Depending on the country)

 

[Testarossa002]

Not really sure why all these is being entertained at all
Of all the things that supposedly resist TBB heat (see my initial post), none of them have any actual anti-feats when it comes to amaterasu or any other thing

• TBB isn't Katon and is not capped by amaterasu
• Madara's PS is the one with TBB heat resistance and not the lower forms
  • Even if for some reason, they have the same heat resistance, Lava Style is not Katon and again, not capped by amaterasu. It's also not capped by real life temp for lava as that serves as a baseline and not a ceiling. Same way other elemental tech are not limited in speed, strength or any other characteristics compared to their real-life counterparts

Nobody needs to address any amaterasu points unless you can link it to the heat scaling of the Otsutsuki, Hashirama's wood Style, Madara's perfect susano'o and A3
The only somewhat valid point was raised by Damage when he said something about the duration of exposure not relevant enough for scaling
And I can see where he's coming from but that's not a requirement for scaling as far as I know. Someone surviving a certain temperature for 5 seconds doesn't invalidate the resistance. Especially when there isn't any anti-feats

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Wasn't Ama removed from OP? What is being argued now and is it relevant to the OP? If not, then why are people still debating this? Is it for fun?

Edit: If it involves A4, we could probably remove him too since IDK about scaling him to heat because he is A3's son, that doesn't necessarily translate to exact heat resistance. But that's just my opinion.