Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi

[Xavis10]

I meant it as in, "the dark side negates an opponent's regeneration". Istg this exists somewhere, but can't find it rn.

 

[Xavis10]

Will eventually go over Shadows of Mindor, some nice force scalings there with all that stuff about the Dark (≠ dark side).

 

[Rutæhh]

Anyone has that scan (EU) saying that the dark side inhibits regeneration? I swear I remember that, but can't find it now.

here u go

 

[Epyriel]

Will eventually go over Shadows of Mindor, some nice force scalings there with all that stuff about the Dark (≠ dark side).

Eh problem with that book is that almost nothing of it is usable since it is recognized in-universe as a significant dramatization and fictionalization of events.

 

[Xavis10]

here u go

Thank you

 

[Xavis10]

Eh problem with that book is that almost nothing of it is usable since it is recognized in-universe as a significant dramatization and fictionalization of events.

Partially true, but there are events we know for a fact happened because they're treated as fact in other sources (one being the Book of Sith, the other I don't recall), like Cronal's battle with Luke and the overall fight between New Republic and Cronal's faction.

The stuff about the Sorcerers of Rhand and the Dark is also true, partly due to Stover being the writer and it being a huge part of his philosophy in SW, so it ends up being something he espouses in his other books, like the ROTS novel, Traitor (to some extent) and also Shatterpoint.

Props to Stover for being the guy who even enabled Tier 0 Force being a thing lol

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

the lack of a centralized military is exactly why the yuuzhan vong do not work for the High Republic era.

the HR is not a story about a complacent galaxy needing to be violently “woken up” by an extinction level invasion.
It is about a young, optimistic rrepublic learning, often painfully, that good intentions, decentralized power, and moral authority are not always enough. the conflicts are meant to test ideals, . dropping the vong into that setting skips the entire philosophical arc and jumps straight to an end of era crisis.
the Nihil in turn create conflicts that cannot be solved by brute force alone. they force characters and institutions to confront abstract problems like trust, coordination, authority, and moral compromise,the vong reduce most conflicts to survival math. unite or die. in turn the nihil are a distorted reflection of the republic itself, decentralized, idealistic in their own way, and empowered by freedom without responsibility. they emerge from within the same system the republic believes in.

more importantly, something like the vong wouldnnt really make sense for the time period the HR is set in. Its clearly meant to evoke Star Wars’ fantasy roots,the Knights of the round table, a mythic “golden age,” and an era of optimism and exploration. the vong are more like endgame bosses,they function almost entirely as an invasion story, designed for a setting where the galaxy is already exhausted and fractured.

honestly, the vong haven’t aged all that well either. A lot of their writing relies on trying to appear mature through excessive sadism, masochism, and shock value,which feels pretty dated now. on top of that, their religious symbiosis with the wider SW universe is kind of undercooked. later HR stuff especially Phase II, with factions like the Path of the Open Hand does a significantly better job exploring religious cults, belief systems, and their relationship with the force in a more thoughtful way.

The vong would fit better in either the old republic or long after the sequels.

Also i'm not sure if your up to date with the HR or not but the Nihil arn't really the main villains of the High Republic either

@OTG0001 thinks that this comment is AI.

Might you try typing your own answer?

 

[OTG0001]

Eh problem with that book is that almost nothing of it is usable since it is recognized in-universe as a significant dramatization and fictionalization of events.

Book of sith, despoilers of an empire, skyewalkers, rots novel, and a few other sourcebooks make references to the events that occurred, alongside the same ontic propositions that the dark within the book also establishes, I don't think that it is at all unusuable.

Also no, luke cut the bloat, one could interpret the story as the finished product, because luke wasn't satisfied with the exaggeration to begin with.

It's sort of quasi but since there are just so many references (i.e., luke's battle within the dark, for example) those parts should be used, despoilers just calls it transcendental combat; which is sort of what it is.

And yes, the dark is a metaphor and a vision, but that occupies a specific ontic category, wherein metaphor is just a partial description of some greater whole, and visions implying it exists beyond physical composition, which is also the case via it predating the living force. Stover loves ontological jargon so you probably wouldn't understand, but he's not saying it's exaggerated or anything when calling it such, but that it occupies a certain state.

Stover also explains in shatterpoint that any lie of the force (contextually referencing visions) is more true than any of the physical reality we can comprehend, thus it's akin to beyond shadows, in the sense that reality is just a pale imitation of the true underlying substrate which is the force, that even falsity is more true than the illusory reality.

so Force > Visions > Physical Composition; it is still ontically significant, but luke doesn't scale to it normally, it is almost certainly a form of oneness.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

@OTG0001 thinks that this comment is AI.

Might you try typing your own answer?

I typed that

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I typed that

I will take your word, but maybe talk to @OTG0001 on that

 

[DaReaperMan]

I will take your word, but maybe talk to @OTG0001 on that

But Hagane, OGT put it through AI detectors, things that are historically hilariously inaccurate for actually finding AI stuff-- I-I mean, valid sources!

 

[Phsccarvalho]

But Hagane, OGT put it through AI detectors, things that are historically hilariously inaccurate for actually finding AI stuff-- I-I mean, valid sources!

Bip Bop...detecting...Reaper is an AI...Bip Bop

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Definitely the highest tiered calc I’ve ever done lol

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Epyriel/Star_Wars_Legends_-_The_Galactic_Nathemic_Ritual

I added this to the Sandbox

 

[OTG0001]

But Hagane, OGT put it through AI detectors, things that are historically hilariously inaccurate for actually finding AI stuff-- I-I mean, valid sources!

I didn't, it's a acquired unconscious skill to read semantics that appear to be ai-like, and the argumentative quality of the passage and how its formulated screams ai, even if it might not be.

Regardless calling the vong merely shock value and edgy teen bullshit proves people don't read the NJO, because it's not just that. There are massive philosophical and ethical ramifications in that series. Granted not every person is capable of comprehending it or even really cares to read the content (not just glossing over it).

For instance, I could easily write a 10-page essay on every topic Traitor discusses.

 

[Doggo]

@Doggo

Oodly enough I was not notified lol

 

[Doggo]

Definitely the highest tiered calc I’ve ever done lol

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Epyriel/Star_Wars_Legends_-_The_Galactic_Nathemic_Ritual

I am assuming it only scales to the Ritual itself lol

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I typed that

I didn't, it's a acquired unconscious skill to read semantics that appear to be ai-like, and the argumentative quality of the passage and how its formulated screams ai, even if it might not be.

Regardless calling the vong merely shock value and edgy teen bullshit proves people don't read the NJO, because it's not just that. There are massive philosophical and ethical ramifications in that series. Granted not every person is capable of comprehending it or even really cares to read the content (not just glossing over it).

For instance, I could easily write a 10-page essay on every topic Traitor discusses.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Just seems like someone being dismissive because they don't like that someone else doesn't think their precious sacred cow of a series is perfectly written. the philosophical and ethical dilemmas explored by the Vong are overstated, they are often surface level and the narrative will bend over backwards to prevent characters from actually having to make any truly consequential choices relating to ethics.

Anyway going back to Shock value, this isn't some hot take unless your exposure to legends happened like a few years ago or something, criticism for its Edgy tone is something that was prevalent even as early as 1999 on Jedi council forums, and plenty of authors have self admittedly confirmed a lot that too. it was due to Del Rey intentionally trying to distance itself from the previous Bantham era of Novels . this was happening at a turning point in the new millennium where companies were trying to make their IP "darker" to cater towards teenagers. a lot of NJO is a product of its time,and its very noticeable if your actually familiar with reading books outside of just star wars.

I think overall the NJO series is actually great btw, but that's in spite of the vong not because of it,but acting like its beyond comprehension as if its some high brow literature is really funny to me. for every James Luceno/Strover entry there's a Karen Traviss there to butcher the writing because they value their Mandalorian fetish more than writing something that makes sense as a follow up.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

?

 

[Epyriel]

I am assuming it only scales to the Ritual itself lol

Yep lol
It is already listed as Galaxy level but now we have a calc to back it up

 

[Epyriel]

Oodly enough I was not notified lol

Yeah pings only work if you are a mod

 

[OTG0001]

Just seems like someone being dismissive because they don't like that someone else doesn't think their precious sacred cow of a series is perfectly written. the philosophical and ethical dilemmas explored by the Vong are overstated, they are often surface level and the narrative will bend over backwards to prevent characters from actually having to make any truly consequential choices relating to ethics.

Anyway going back to Shock value, this isn't some hot take unless your exposure to legends happened like a few years ago or something, criticism for its Edgy tone is something that was prevalent even as early as 1999 on Jedi council forums, and plenty of authors have self admittedly confirmed a lot that too. it was due to Del Rey intentionally trying to distance itself from the previous Bantham era of Novels . this was happening at a turning point in the new millennium where companies were trying to make their IP "darker" to cater towards teenagers. a lot of NJO is a product of its time,and its very noticeable if your actually familiar with reading books outside of just star wars.

I think overall the NJO series is actually great btw, but that's in spite of the vong not because of it,but acting like its beyond comprehension as if its some high brow literature is really funny to me. for every James Luceno/Strover entry there's a Karen Traviss there to butcher the writing because they value their Mandalorian fetish more than writing something that makes sense as a follow up.

I have reason to be dismissive. It's okay that you feel the need to interject your erroneous opinions about me to make yourself feel better, whatever floats your boat.

??? have you read the unifying force? final prophecy? both of these have consequential decisions, again, you simply did not read the series.

Yea you can certainly appeal to random proto-suspect insight brainrotted people (or killermovies) discussing things, but there is rarely any constructive criticism and more cope because chewie died, which they use as the sole reason why vector prime is not a good book, even though it has great worldbuilding. But to use that as a basis for the vong's entire narrative depth being exclusively founded on "edgy" attributes is pretty flimsy. If you have specific examples or can argue why precisely the vong are holistically limited to edginess, I would like to hear them. Or precisely why this edginess is not narratively profound.

I did not claim it was beyond comprehension. Your strawmans are not helping you prove your point nor are conducive to any actual discussion. I just said it is not merely shock value. I also don't think it really detracts from the NJO.

That analogy is inapplicable because the majority of the NJO is great. There are a few books that are not the best, but it's not like the denningverse where it flipflops between decent and atrocious. I can just as easily say the same for the high republic, because most of the novels there are not philosophically profound, nor contain a significant amount of character development, marchion ro for example stays stagnant throughout most of the series (unless he changes in temptation or trials, haven't read those yet), the series as a whole is really just boosted by a few good novels and an interesting premise, but does not hold up throughout time, and some of the ideas (eg., nameless) are hardly original.

Even if you want to disregard that, the best books from the NJO are also incidentally some of the best books star wars has ever produced, while Light of the jedi, rising storm, and into the dark are just good but are not revolutionary.

 

[DaReaperMan]

People when everyone doesn't worship 6/10 villains as 10/10 villains...

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

cough cough

Star Wars; General Grievous, you're smarter than I expected (Intelligence Rework)

Uh yeah, Grievous like alot of Star Wars profiles, has a bunch of Legends stuff mixed into their intelligence due to both continuities being in the same profile Uh yeah here is the rework would like to thank @Epyriel for fixing up some fo the grammar, and sentences anyways uh yeah scans and...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

People when everyone doesn't worship 6/10 villains as 10/10 villains...

this is why everyone should worship Ben Quadinaros instead

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I have reason to be dismissive. It's okay that you feel the need to interject your erroneous opinions about me to make yourself feel better, whatever floats your boat.

Your the one who's crashing out about a old ass post, you should consider looking in a mirror

??? have you read the unifying force? final prophecy? both of these have consequential decisions, again, you simply did not read the series.

I have, I enjoy Luceno's work, just because i don't share your enthusiasm about its villains doesn't mean I haven't read it. also your shifting the goalpost, i never mentioned that no consequential decisions happen entirely, i specifically highlighted that there are no consequential decisions based on any of the ethical dilemmas your apparently think the series tackles

Yea you can certainly appeal to random proto-suspect insight brainrotted people (or killermovies) discussing things, but there is rarely any constructive criticism and more cope because chewie died, which they use as the sole reason why vector prime is not a good book, even though it has great worldbuilding. But to use that as a basis for the vong's entire narrative depth being exclusively founded on "edgy" attributes is pretty flimsy.

I never mentioned Vector Prime being solely a bad book nor that its the only reason to consider the Vong edgy. If you actually read my post you would know that.

If you have specific examples or can argue why precisely the vong are holistically limited to edginess, I would like to hear them. Or precisely why this edginess is not narratively profound.

This is a loaded question, first lets make something specifically clear, I never once mentioned that the Vong were holistically limited to edginess, i made it a point that its attributes of sadism,masochism, the increase of violence relative to star wars's tone at the time was a conscious effort to appear more mature and it hasnt aged well, its very much a product of its time . however that's not even the main issue i have with the Vong, the issue with the Vong is that despite all the interesting things they do have like its culture , the conflict of the story surrounding them are utterly uninspired, they fall into the same trapping plenty of other fictional stories do where the philosphical and ethical dilemmas are set dressing that will be ignored when the cards are on the table. think about how often batman stories often have the villains make strong points regarding the systemic or social issues only for them to suddenly become cartoonishly evil at the last moment so that the hero and the audience have a bunching bag to root for while the actual ethic/social issues are left undressed. the vong are the same, most of its conflicts like i mentioned in my original post have a very binary solution of either dying or overcoming it by pure force. The Vong's cool unique culture isn't a product of wanting to explore anything meaningful, its an attempt at homogenizing the race to avoid ethical questions and to explain why an entire race could be punished and in turn their separation of the force doesn't exist to explore the force in a meaningful way, its there as a safety net to explain why these characters can fight force users.
Finally you arguing something is profound is anon sequitur, something being profound is entirely dependent on the values of the individual, someone can find something profound in a 1/10 story and also get nothing from a celebrated work.

I did not claim it was beyond comprehension. Your strawmans are not helping you prove your point nor are conducive to any actual discussion.

your original comment still implies that disagreement is often the result of people not understanding the material rather than simply reaching a different conclusion

I just said it is not merely shock value. I also don't think it really detracts from the NJO.

I never said its solely shock value either and i do think it detracts, because NJO often has excellent character writing that has to be stuffed into pedestrian plots.

That analogy is inapplicable because the majority of the NJO is great.

id partly agree that there is more good than bad but i never made reference to NJO being mostly bad

There are a few books that are not the best, but it's not like the denningverse where it flipflops between decent and atrocious.

I'm the wrong person to be making this point, I don't like Denning, I don't like fate and i certainly don't like how it character assassinates one of my fav legends character who had a complete and comprehensible ending in UF

I can just as easily say the same for the high republic, because most of the novels there are not philosophically profound, nor contain a significant amount of character development, marchion ro for example stays stagnant throughout most of the series (unless he changes in temptation or trials, haven't read those yet), the series as a whole is really just boosted by a few good novels and an interesting premise, but does not hold up throughout time, and some of the ideas (eg., nameless) are hardly original.

The biggest difference is that the NJO is a single series of books while the High Republic is a multi media project of several ongoing stories around a large theme, its much closer to the multi media clone wars project. so the dips in quality (which there are a lot of) do not impact the individual books as much as NJO does. Also Marchion being a static character isn't a writing issue, its not the point of his character to go on a self reflected journey or fundamentally change. the nameless are not original broadly speaking, most of the high republic isnt, its very much influenced by a lot of fantasy works, so i wouldn't consider them high brow literature either but i do find the conflicts significantly more interesting because they often require more than just either military or individual strength to overcome.

Even if you want to disregard that, the best books from the NJO are also incidentally some of the best books star wars has ever produced, while Light of the jedi, rising storm, and into the dark are just good but are not revolutionary.

Not sure about that one. neither HR or NJO have actually revolutionary books. I'm not sure id put any of them in the top 10.

hell Alphabet Squadron and by proxy Mask of fear by Alexander Freed comically runs laps around any NJO or HR book in terms of characterization, ethical,moral,philosophical and plotting. the only downside to those books is that Freed's prose is often too dry for my taste.

Hell mask of fear makes widely celebrated star wars novels like Plagues seem like it CW levels of trying to handle political intrigue . I don't even think NJO represents the best of their respective authors (mostly) Strover who id consider the strongest author here (NJO) has his best work elsewere.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

this is why everyone should worship Ben Quadinaros instead

I don't see the image

 

[Fireld]

can you see this?

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

How good is Jedi Precog again

currently in a argument with my bf

whether Jedi Precog is better than Valencina form Project Moon's Precog

due to Valencina just being able to see the Precog instead of just sensing it or whatever apparently idk I don't and never will play project moon shit

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

can you see this?

Through the link, yes, but not on here

 

[OTG0001]

Your the one who's crashing out about a old ass post, you should consider looking in a mirror

I have, I enjoy Luceno's work, just because i don't share your enthusiasm about its villains doesn't mean I haven't read it. also your shifting the goalpost, i never mentioned that no consequential decisions happen entirely, i specifically highlighted that there are no consequential decisions based on any of the ethical dilemmas your apparently think the series tackles

I never mentioned Vector Prime being solely a bad book nor that its the only reason to consider the Vong edgy. If you actually read my post you would know that.

This is a loaded question, first lets make something specifically clear, I never once mentioned that the Vong were holistically limited to edginess, i made it a point that its attributes of sadism,masochism, the increase of violence relative to star wars's tone at the time was a conscious effort to appear more mature and it hasnt aged well, its very much a product of its time . however that's not even the main issue i have with the Vong, the issue with the Vong is that despite all the interesting things they do have like its culture , the conflict of the story surrounding them are utterly uninspired, they fall into the same trapping plenty of other fictional stories do where the philosphical and ethical dilemmas are set dressing that will be ignored when the cards are on the table. think about how often batman stories often have the villains make strong points regarding the systemic or social issues only for them to suddenly become cartoonishly evil at the last moment so that the hero and the audience have a bunching bag to root for while the actual ethic/social issues are left undressed. the vong are the same, most of its conflicts like i mentioned in my original post have a very binary solution of either dying or overcoming it by pure force. The Vong's cool unique culture isn't a product of wanting to explore anything meaningful, its an attempt at homogenizing the race to avoid ethical questions and to explain why an entire race could be punished and in turn their separation of the force doesn't exist to explore the force in a meaningful way, its there as a safety net to explain why these characters can fight force users.
Finally you arguing something is profound is anon sequitur, something being profound is entirely dependent on the values of the individual, someone can find something profound in a 1/10 story and also get nothing from a celebrated work.

your original comment still implies that disagreement is often the result of people not understanding the material rather than simply reaching a different conclusion

I never said its solely shock value either and i do think it detracts, because NJO often has excellent character writing that has to be stuffed into pedestrian plots.

id partly agree that there is more good than bad but i never made reference to NJO being mostly bad

I'm the wrong person to be making this point, I don't like Denning, I don't like fate and i certainly don't like how it character assassinates one of my fav legends character who had a complete and comprehensible ending in UF

The biggest difference is that the NJO is a single series of books while the High Republic is a multi media project of several ongoing stories around a large theme, its much closer to the multi media clone wars project. so the dips in quality (which there are a lot of) do not impact the individual books as much as NJO does. Also Marchion being a static character isn't a writing issue, its not the point of his character to go on a self reflected journey or fundamentally change. the nameless are not original broadly speaking, most of the high republic isnt, its very much influenced by a lot of fantasy works, so i wouldn't consider them high brow literature either but i do find the conflicts significantly more interesting because they often require more than just either military or individual strength to overcome.

Not sure about that one. neither HR or NJO have actually revolutionary books. I'm not sure id put any of them in the top 10.

hell Alphabet Squadron and by proxy Mask of fear by Alexander Freed comically runs laps around any NJO or HR book in terms of characterization, ethical,moral,philosophical and plotting. the only downside to those books is that Freed's prose is often too dry for my taste.

Hell mask of fear makes widely celebrated star wars novels like Plagues seem like it CW levels of trying to handle political intrigue . I don't even think NJO represents the best of their respective authors (mostly) Strover who id consider the strongest author here (NJO) has his best work elsewere.

If you think crashing out is equivalent to critiquing the asinine opinion that any canon series is even remotely close to NJO, then go ahead. I don't care for pointless banter anyways.

I know, I was specifically contending the fact that you used the criticism present on said forums as an appeal to popularity to why the vong are edgy, and thus because it has so much critique, that is inherently an limiting factor, you did not cite one single example or argue anything about it, you're just claiming things, hence why I am concluding you haven't read the series, at least not in a while. Essentially, "I don't like it, and that's gospel".

You have the obligation to cite and prove your points, unless you want to concede subjectivity which is fine, but that doesn't exactly behoove you to do so when you say the vong bereft of depth with certainty.

Edginess can include those, it's an umbrella term, I don't have to cater toward naming every single attribute you listed so you can cherrypick wording. Yes, I can agree the Vong were a product of their time, that is well-known, but claiming they don't age well is pretty diametrically opposed to most opinions you see. In any case, the vong are not black and white in their conflicts, at least not exclusively, and it's largely chalked up to broader force philosophy (which the implications in the series are massive, whether or not you enjoy them or not), it links to the overarching theme that the NJO purports, that the force is one, and the vong being outside of it is permeable.

There are characters within the Vong that even question whether or not pain-ideology is really all that it's chalked up to be, and discussions between vong and jedi alike about the force's nature and said topics connect to the Unifying Force's ending, and while it isn't a direct link, it is narratively satisfying to see the species develop and compromise, and be redeemed in a sense.

Arguing that the vong are simply there to give the jedi a exponentially stronger enemy is simply ignoring the fact that the NJO is meant to broaden the Jedi's view on the world, and not be limited to preconceptions or dogma, which is precisely why the PT jedi failed. It's not merely a light or dark conflict but messes with fundamental force metaphysics, and thus the jedi have to adapt to said realizations. As luke notes, the sides are merely perceptions and do not exist in nature, which significantly deviates the view on the engagement. It's just a conflict of ideology rather than mere dualism, which is in stark opposition to the typical jedi vs sith storyline star wars usually adopts (and why denning sucks).

Arguing that I'm being subjective is very rich coming from you in which your argument is almost purely subjective, and your hesitance to really cite the most egregious offenders of the supposed "only edginess" narrative viewpoint you seem to hold seems to prove that.

Why is the NJO limited to said plots when the plots exist to better the overarching implications of both sides of the war? That is a rather reductionist view.

I don't also, because it retroactively changes the lessons that the Jedi learn from being in opposition to the vong, and FOTJ exists to explain denning's fuckups with jacen, but there are a couple of good books mainly by authors other than traviss and denning. Overall though its just character assassination and Luke becomes a pt jedi lmao.

That argument only works when you assume the NJO actually has said dips in quality between books and isn't just holistically pretty good outside of a couple nothingburgers (Dark journey for instance), High republic is relatively consistent in that it simply does not explore any broader themes, and in fact I would argue that the HR is inherently limited by the time period, as the Jedi, unlike in the NJO, have to be limited by the PT's overwhelming arrogance, and thus this limits any actual development outside of the micro scale, which they seem opposed to doing in any meaningful way.

And yes, I can agree that the HR presents more solutions or approaches to conflict, but its founded on 1-dimensional and mediocre villains (Nihil are a twisted reflection of the republic, as you said, but they don't exactly evolve past wanting conquest for superficial reasons) which inherently limits it from being good, alongside the main cast really participating in characterization we've seen before in star wars, and not even good characterization at that. A lot of the overarching themes are just the power of conjoining oneself to other beings and harmony to overcome a threat. And yes, you could make good stories from that but the means to that end matter more than the end itself, in which the HR just preserves that end through rigidly adhering to the same ideology as proposed in the first book (same thing with the nihil). Never are they really presented with a conflict which causes them to alter said ideologies completely, or expanding it in any substantive fashion. Ironically the whole nameless arc isn't like that, which I think is one of the cooler aspects of the high republic, but it's not exactly original (like I said) or great.

You justifying Ro being 1-Dimensional is excusable is pretty funny when you say the vong fall under the same category and act like it's terrible. Guess we pick and choose our favorites, eh?

Calling Traitor or the Unifying Force not revolutionary is quite the opinion, but I don't think arguing it would yield anything substantive so I'll leave it there.

I haven't read mask of fear yet, I've heard good things about it though, but if it's andor quality then I'm not expecting it to be anywhere close to the highlights of the EU. I'll probably pick it up once i'm done with my canon reread.

Alphabet squadron is not as great as you say it is in terms of characterization, it's essentially just twilight company with slightly different archetypes but the prose is too much leaning into typical melodrama about the horrors of war rather than anything revolutionary, and it's sort of limited by other canon points (like cinder...which is just pointless and redundant with aftermath, which I just reread and wasn't that good), the setting is forced, etc. It's not that I don't like some of the moments, it's just not "running laps" around the NJO. It might have been better if Shadowfall didn't exist, but alas it does.

Arguing that Plagueis is meant to explore political intrigue as one of its strong suits misses the point of the novel, if you want that read cloak.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Dark journey for instance

Hey this comic was cool alright, I would pay someone to make a fan comic sequel called "Purge: Dark Journey" where Vader fights Kardem!

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Alphabet squadron

I thought that this was a joke, but that's really their name?!

 

[OTG0001]

Hey this comic was cool alright, I would pay someone to make a fan comic sequel called "Purge: Dark Journey" where Vader fights Kardem!

Props to the EU for reusing names.

I thought that this was a joke, but that's really their name?!

Yeah. It's not that bad though.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Props to the EU for reusing names.

I definitely would like such a comic to be made because canonically in the EU Kardem gets captured by a bounty hunter and thrown into the slammer off-screen. I don't need to say just how lame that is hear!

Dark Jedi are probably a higher priority than regular Jedi during the purge, so Vydel and Kardem just by existing would have a big red target on their back! And I definitely would like to see how Vader reveals to Vydel that she is Kardem all along.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

If you think crashing out is equivalent to critiquing the asinine opinion that any canon series is even remotely close to NJO, then go ahead. I don't care for pointless banter anyways.

you care enough.

I know, I was specifically contending the fact that you used the criticism present on said forums as an appeal to popularity to why the vong are edgy

I wasn't citing forums as evidence for why the vong are edgy, i was citing it to highight that my take on the series didnt exist in a vacuum

, and thus because it has so much critique, that is inherently an limiting factor, you did not cite one single example or argue anything about it, you're just claiming things, hence why I am concluding you haven't read the series, at least not in a while. Essentially, "I don't like it, and that's gospel".

Because i didn't go into these discussions with an argumentative frame of mind, i had a take months ago that you responded to and someone quoted to me. I don't make specific claims to win a debate unless i have sources and or scans on me to post. not unless i think the person is on the same page as me that i can make references to specific stuff.

You have the obligation to cite and prove your points, unless you want to concede subjectivity which is fine

I don't have an obligation to do anything at all, this isn't a debate, it was a take i had that upset you so much that you off hand started attacking my character over to the point someone else quoted me to clarify.

, but that doesn't exactly behoove you to do so when you say the vong bereft of depth with certainty.

Notice how i never mentioned this.

Edginess can include those, it's an umbrella term, I don't have to cater toward naming every single attribute you listed so you can cherrypick wording. Yes, I can agree the Vong were a product of their time, that is well-known, but claiming they don't age well is pretty diametrically opposed to most opinions you see. In any case, the vong are not black and white in their conflicts, at least not exclusively, and it's largely chalked up to broader force philosophy (which the implications in the series are massive, whether or not you enjoy them or not), it links to the overarching theme that the NJO purports, that the force is one, and the vong being outside of it is permeable.

I never made the claim that edgyness = inherently bad, just that I and many others would consider the vong edgy and their intentional design from the publisher was to appeal to certain demographic.
I would consider Vergil from DMC edgy too but i don't consider him bad, your hyper focusing on my edgy comment and seeing the forest for the trees, the vong are inherently bad because they edgy, i find them uninteresting because they don't generate conflicts that interest me.

There are characters within the Vong that even question whether or not pain-ideology is really all that it's chalked up to be, and discussions between vong and jedi alike about the force's nature and said topics connect to the Unifying Force's ending, and while it isn't a direct link, it is narratively satisfying to see the species develop and compromise, and be redeemed in a sense.

"redeemed"
The implications of The Vong Ending leaves a sour taste in my mouth, especially if you consider what the authors are drawing on, if your still unsure of what i mean then its probably best you don't hear my thoughts, and if you do have an idea then you should know why i'm actively not talking about it in detail in a public forum.

Arguing that the vong are simply there to give the jedi a exponentially stronger enemy is simply ignoring the fact that the NJO is meant to broaden the Jedi's view on the world, and not be limited to preconceptions or dogma, which is precisely why the PT jedi failed

that's just a personal reading, which is fine, the production and outline for the Vong were created long before any of the authors knew anything about the prequels, in fact a lot of the NJO still treat the Jedi the same way the Bantam era did, which i actually prefer, any thematic connections your making is retroactive.

Arguing that I'm being subjective is very rich coming from you in which your argument is almost purely subjective

Yes my value judgements are subjective.

, and your hesitance to really cite the most egregious offenders of the supposed "only edginess" narrative viewpoint you seem to hold seems to prove that.

See above

Why is the NJO limited to said plots when the plots exist to better the overarching implications of both sides of the war? That is a rather reductionist view.

The general conflict for the Vong isnt interesting and thats where a lot of the plot happens

I don't also, because it retroactively changes the lessons that the Jedi learn from being in opposition to the vong, and FOTJ exists to explain denning's fuckups with jacen, but there are a couple of good books mainly by authors other than traviss and denning. Overall though its just character assassination and Luke becomes a pt jedi lmao.

well we can agree there, your kinder than me because it annoys me to no end how people can ignore how badly they brutalize and character assassinate characters like Jacen,Luke,Ben,Mara ect just because Darth Caedus has "aura". for all my issues with the vong id absolutely take them over the story ruining a character i love only to give us Temu Darth Vader.

That argument only works when you assume the NJO actually has said dips in quality between books and isn't just holistically pretty good outside of a couple nothingburgers (Dark journey for instance),

I think NJO has both dips and is holistically good.

High republic is relatively consistent in that it simply does not explore any broader theme

Now this one feels like your larping

s, and in fact I would argue that the HR is inherently limited by the time period, as the Jedi, unlike in the NJO, have to be limited by the PT's overwhelming arrogance, and thus this limits any actual development outside of the micro scale, which they seem opposed to doing in any meaningful way.

I disagree, I think the HR has a different problem, I think the Jedi in that era are explored wonderfully well and feel like what i expected Jedi to actually be. the problem is that i dont find it believable that the Jedi from the HR could reasonably turn into the Dogmatic Jedi of the prequels, and a prime example of this is The Acolyte, a show which isnt good on its own but also adds salt to the wound by character assassinating Vernestra rwoh (pulling a Jacen) but also just seeming to mis the entire point of the HR Jedi so that we can justify the Jedi as "le bad"

And yes, I can agree that the HR presents more solutions or approaches to conflict, but its founded on 1-dimensional and mediocre villains (Nihil are a twisted reflection of the republic, as you said, but they don't exactly evolve past wanting conquest for superficial reasons) which inherently limits it from being good

Hmm no, The Nihil are simple on the surface but a lot of the inner dynamics, especially once stuff like the path of the open hand comes in is especially interesting.

, alongside the main cast really participating in characterization we've seen before in star wars, and not even good characterization at that

I cant say i agree, especially once we get into people like Avar and Elzar (especially in phase 3) though admitedly I do not care much for Stellan or early phase Bell.

. A lot of the overarching themes are just the power of conjoining oneself to other beings and harmony to overcome a threat.

hmmm, i think you mentioned your not up to date so i think i wont press this one.

Never are they really presented with a conflict which causes them to alter said ideologies completely

Elzar and Avar's relationship brings a lot of interesting stuff lol

, or expanding it in any substantive fashion. Ironically the whole nameless arc isn't like that, which I think is one of the cooler aspects of the high republic, but it's not exactly original (like I said) or great.

The High republic has expanded the force significantly more in both its scope and how it functions on an individulistic level than any recent star wars media has in a long time, arguably even more than plenty of the post PT legends stuff too. which admitedly is mostly a fault of prequels as they seem to have condified the force and then authors ran with it. hamogenizing it .

You justifying Ro being 1-Dimensional is excusable is pretty funny when you say the vong fall under the same category and act like it's terrible. Guess we pick and choose our favorites, eh?

Ro isnt 1 dimensional his just a static character, which im not sure if your aware is an existing form of character writing. also the Vong is an entire species being homegenized, id argue the Nihil while having a lot of inner dynamics too are also homegenized to an extent, especially once we move outside the primary cirlce. however their role as a smaller/terrorist group forces them to approach conflict in an entirely/more novel way than the Vong do.

Calling Traitor or the Unifying Force not revolutionary is quite the opinion, but I don't think arguing it would yield anything substantive so I'll leave it there.

ok

I haven't read mask of fear yet, I've heard good things about it though, but if it's andor quality then I'm not expecting it to be anywhere close to the highlights of the EU. I'll probably pick it up once i'm done with my canon reread.

ok

Alphabet squadron is not as great as you say it is in terms of characterization, it's essentially just twilight company with slightly different archetypes but the prose is too much leaning into typical melodrama about the horrors of war rather than anything revolutionary,

not sure how you can come to this conclusion, i wouldnt say AS is revolutionary either but id absolutely say they better than UF and Traitor in terms of characterization

and it's sort of limited by other canon points (like cinder...which is just pointless and redundant with aftermath

AS is the rare book that actually makes Cinder sound cool. though i do wish Freed was "FREED" from the shackles of having to write around that shitty plot point.

It might have been better if Shadowfall didn't exist, but alas it does.

Shadowfall is still higher than most of the NJO

Arguing that Plagueis is meant to explore political intrigue as one of its strong suits misses the point of the novel, if you want that read cloak.

You clearly havent been around a Plagueis novel glazer.
ive read Cloak of Deception if thats what your referring too.

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

cheeseburg

"The Fair Cyborg" (General Grievous vs La Signora)

Welcome back to making Grievous fight random characters to see what sticks anyways Rules Battle takes place in La Mancha Speed is Equalized Distance is 5m SBA otherwise Supreme Commander of CIS Droid Army: Scales to 79.374 Megatons of TNT (4.35x Advantage) Scales to 88,098.789 Metric Tons...

vsbattles.com

 

[Phsccarvalho]

cheeseburg

"The Fair Cyborg" (General Grievous vs La Signora)

Welcome back to making Grievous fight random characters to see what sticks anyways Rules Battle takes place in La Mancha Speed is Equalized Distance is 5m SBA otherwise Supreme Commander of CIS Droid Army: Scales to 79.374 Megatons of TNT (4.35x Advantage) Scales to 88,098.789 Metric Tons...

vsbattles.com

Perhaps something for you to keep in mind, since that defeat of Obi-Wan happened in the same year as ROTS.

"The Fair Cyborg" (General Grievous vs La Signora)

Welcome back to making Grievous fight random characters to see what sticks anyways Rules Battle takes place in La Mancha Speed is Equalized Distance is 5m SBA otherwise Supreme Commander of CIS Droid Army: Scales to 79.374 Megatons of TNT (4.35x Advantage) Scales to 88,098.789 Metric Tons...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

Perhaps something for you to keep in mind, since that defeat of Obi-Wan happened in the same year as ROTS.

"The Fair Cyborg" (General Grievous vs La Signora)

Welcome back to making Grievous fight random characters to see what sticks anyways Rules Battle takes place in La Mancha Speed is Equalized Distance is 5m SBA otherwise Supreme Commander of CIS Droid Army: Scales to 79.374 Megatons of TNT (4.35x Advantage) Scales to 88,098.789 Metric Tons...

vsbattles.com

? keep in mind for what

 

[Phsccarvalho]

? keep in mind for what

Grievous manages to defeat Obi-Wan in a fight months before Revenge of the Sith.