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[1-0-5] "Paradox"? Thank goodness, I wouldn't like to be doxxed today! - Takaba Fumihiko vs Fushiguro Toji

Incon. Toji can't harm because Fumi thinks it's funny and Fumi doesn't kill because of his character.
Incon.
 
Arkansalter2 said:
Incon. Toji can't harm because Fumi thinks it's funny and Fumi doesn't kill because of his character.
Incon.
Click to expand...
[insert final narration of a battle in Pokémon Stadium]

There's also the fact that ISoH more or less can't "be in contact" with Comedian to cancel it
I'll add myself together with you
 
TauanVictor said:
If none of the characters can affect each other it's a mismatch, not an Incon.
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I never said that they wouldn't affect each other. I just said they can't kill each other. Big difference.
Fumi would kick Toji's ass with his CT but he won't kill him because of his character. Toji can't affect Fumi at all.
 
TauanVictor said:
The end result is the same either way.
Click to expand...
It's more like Takaba won't, Toji can't because of their abilities VERY SPECIFICALLY working in such way against one another and some assumptions have to be made to argue each side winning, with the explanations we have in-verse leaving IMPOSSIBLE TO CONCLUDE which would win

See why it ain't a mismatch?
 
Does the comedian have a feat of making someone who's annoyed or upset laugh or something like that?
 
TauanVictor said:
Does the comedian have a feat of making someone who's annoyed or upset laugh or something like that?
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Basically all what Takaba thinks is funny happens and what he thinks isn't, doesn't

Violence and Death aren't funny, so weapons of any kind are useless against him

To see how someone """""""defeated"""""""" Takaba, check Takaba vs Kenjaku in the manga where it is arguable someone who got his sense of humor and went with the flow of it had a positive result against him before dying to a sudden attack of a third party lol
 
Nonynho said:
To see how someone """""""defeated"""""""" Takaba, check Takaba vs Kenjaku in the manga where it is arguable someone who got his sense of humor and went with the flow of it had a positive result against him before dying to a sudden attack of a third party lol
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I see.

I'm asking because some type of charisma or social influencing in a fight is considered incap.
 
TauanVictor said:
I see.

I'm asking because some type of charisma or social influencing in a fight is considered incap.
Click to expand...
It's not the case for Takaba

The only instance where he defeated someone was in the fight i refered to, which is mentioned in his AP section
 
TauanVictor said:
I'll check that on QaA.
Click to expand...
The reply.

Via SBA (Standard Battle Assumptions), this generally cannot happen, unless one of the characters manipulates the other. By SBA, characters are in-character but have to win, and cannot simply go home and whatnot, but have to win the match in some way (be it incapping, social influencing, killing, BFR, etc...) and assume the other want to kill them or cause them severe harm.
As such, there won't be a situation where one goes home. If somehow one does leave, then it'll count as self-bfr, and the opponent would win the match.
Click to expand...
 
TauanVictor said:
The reply.
Click to expand...
Toji wants to kill the guy but Comedian, Takaba's technique, won't let him
Takaba can try to harm him comedically, but he also can't win because Toji is incredibly strong

by asking "what if both sides don't want to" you're not refering to what's going on here
 
TauanVictor said:
When they realize they can't defeat each other, what will they do?
Click to expand...
There's a great question to be asked before this one

What happens when Inverted Spear of Heaven (typically called ISoH, one of Toji's items and basically his main one) is attempted to be used against Comedian?
We don't know.
That's the more specific reason why this should go incon.

ISoH forces Cursed Techniques to be stopped when it gets in contact with it (for example, it forced the stopping of Gojo's barrier technique)
But Comedian isn't an aura technique, so can it go ISoH get in contact with Comedian?
Would Comedian's "nuh-uh" to violence proc first, or would ISoH deactivate it? How is, for certain, ISoH getting in contact with a formless technique?

Those questions and some even more being stuff that we don't know for sure without resorting to headcanon is why this is inconclusive
 
Nonynho said:
There's a great question to be asked before this one

What happens when Inverted Spear of Heaven (typically called ISoH, one of Toji's items and basically his main one) is attempted to be used against Comedian?
We don't know.
That's the more specific reason why this should go incon.

ISoH forces Cursed Techniques to be stopped when it gets in contact with it (for example, it forced the stopping of Gojo's barrier technique)
But Comedian isn't an aura technique, so can it go ISoH get in contact with Comedian?
Would Comedian's "nuh-uh" to violence proc first, or would ISoH deactivate it? How is, for certain, ISoH getting in contact with a formless technique?

Those questions and some even more being stuff that we don't know for sure without resorting to headcanon is why this is inconclusive
Click to expand...
But wasn't it decided earlier that the two of them weren't going to use their wincons because of their personalities + hax?
 
TauanVictor said:
But wasn't it decided earlier that the two of them weren't going to use their wincons because of their personalities + hax?
Click to expand...
no?

Takaba will never kill because he doesn't kill humans, that's a fact and that's what we said
Toji can try violence with other weapons as much as he wants but it'll never work except comedically, which is not fulfilling what Toji would consider a victory

And this paradoxical interaction with ISoH should be the first thing to happen, even before we think about other aspects of how the fight would go
Checking chapters 239 to 243 should give you the best insight possible on how a fight with Takaba goes, first without going with the flow of Comedian and then while doing so (which even if we suppose Toji can do, we first must get through the impossible-paradox)
 
Nonynho said:
no?

Takaba will never kill because he doesn't kill humans, that's a fact and that's what we said
Toji can try violence with other weapons as much as he wants but it'll never work except comedically, which is not fulfilling what Toji would consider a victory

And this paradoxical interaction with ISoH should be the first thing to happen, even before we think about other aspects of how the fight would go
Checking chapters 239 to 243 should give you the best insight possible on how a fight with Takaba goes, first without going with the flow of Comedian and then while doing so (which even if we suppose Toji can do, we first must get through the impossible-paradox)
Click to expand...
Fair enough.

Incon FRA.
 
Takaba doesn't kill people, but he can comically harm them. I can see him pulling a Pokemon and sending Toji "blasting away" into the horizon as a little twinkle or something along those lines. That said, I'm pretty sure Toji would eventually get annoyed and just want to leave and give up fighting Takaba after realizing he can't do anything to him.
 
Takaba can still harm and eventually even warp your mind with his jokes, so he wins. Its a stomp
 
LaserPrecision said:
Takaba doesn't kill people, but he can comically harm them. I can see him pulling a Pokemon and sending Toji "blasting away" into the horizon as a little twinkle or something along those lines. That said, I'm pretty sure Toji would eventually get annoyed and just want to leave and give up fighting Takaba after realizing he can't do anything to him.
Click to expand...
ShionAH said:
Takaba can still harm and eventually even warp your mind with his jokes, so he wins. Its a stomp
Click to expand...
For all of this to happen we all would need a decisive answer on what would happen on the [ISoH vs Comedian] Interaction, which we don't have a decisive answer so it is....
Inconclusive :>
 
Comedian makes it so the attacks just never actually take effect, so ISOH would never actually negate anything because it never takes effect no?

Either way this wouldn't make it an incon, it would make it a mismatch I believe. Incon when it is like a 50/50 battle, but in this case depending on what you believe its like a stomp for either side which fits mismatch more
 
ShionAH said:
Either way this wouldn't make it an incon, it would make it a mismatch I believe.
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it is IMpossible to CONclude whether ISoH works or not, whether they cancel each other out and if so, if both are cancelled or none are cancelled and etc
So from what we can know they both shouldn't be capable of defeating each other equally, therefore incon
 
Oh Toji won against Jogo and Mahito, Maki and lost to 15F Sukuna in a “fair fight”. Wow, great.

Unfollowing.
 
I don't think it's impossible to conclude whether ISoH works or not. Almost every vs battle requires assumptions/speculation to be done and work since most match-ups are crossverse (Even for inverse stuff this is the case). So you can absolutely do the same here based on how both work.

ISoH couldn't even fully nullify Reversal Red from Teen Gojo because it was too strong (Same for Hollow Purple). It's not going to negate Comedian from Takaba whose technique is the strongest in the verse icl. Comedian's negation is more potent because it can work on ANY technique. And in case people forget, Cursed Tools are weapons imbued with a Cursed Technique, meaning ISoH gets its ability from a Cursed Technique. Comedian is just negating it.
 
LaserPrecision said:
It's not going to negate Comedian from Takaba whose technique is the strongest in the verse icl.
Click to expand...
What bases such a claim, though?

LaserPrecision said:
Comedian's negation is more potent because it can work on ANY technique. And in case people forget, Cursed Tools are weapons imbued with a Cursed Technique, meaning ISoH gets its ability from a Cursed Technique. Comedian is just negating it.
Click to expand...
ISoH also negates any technique, basically it demanded above-the-verse's-grading-system to be deemed "too strong for full negation"

Point is: How to determine when Comedian will enter contact with ISoH and vice-versa? Can we say that Comedian's too strong for ISoH to negate?
And since we don't have ways to certainly determinate
image.png
 
Nonynho said:
What bases such a claim, though?
Click to expand...
It has the best feats and it's stated his technique could oppose Satoru Gojo

if-tengen-passed-takaba-the-blunt-how-strong-would-being-v0-9hwaqmg1hlva1.jpg


Nonynho said:
ISoH also negates any technique, basically it demanded above-the-verse's-grading-system to be deemed "too strong for full negation"

Point is: How to determine when Comedian will enter contact with ISoH and vice-versa? Can we say that Comedian's too strong for ISoH to negate?
And since we don't have ways to certainly determinate
Click to expand...
I'd say it's quite easy to determine. ISoH couldn't even stop Reversal Red from Teen Gojo. If it can't even handle something 2x stronger than Teen Gojo, how's it going to handle someone who's technique can oppose the much stronger adult Satoru Gojo? ISoH has displayed limits with its nullification ability, Comedian hasn't. Thus Comedian's negation and power is more potent. You would thus logically deduce Takaba's CT takes priority over ISoH. ISoH would get vaporized by Hollow Purple or Open. Takaba would laugh off either of those two. The disparity is quite clear. A worse nullification Cursed Technique isn't going to beat out a more fundamental (reality warping) potent nullification Cursed Technique.
 
LaserPrecision said:
It has the best feats and it's stated his technique could oppose Satoru Gojo
Click to expand...
Both of them have equally comparable feats
If ISoH wasn't at least equally as menacing, Gojo wouldn't lose his time going after that and the Black Rope to destroy/seal them

LaserPrecision said:
I'd say it's quite easy to determine. ISoH couldn't even stop Reversal Red from Teen Gojo.
Click to expand...
Kinda.
The manga goes out of its way to say he can stop all the physical damage but not the pushing effects
And what would make you think that Comedian would be able to block further, specially when his fights show him being affected by stuff much weaker...
20.jpg


21.jpg
Click to expand...
 
Nonynho said:
it is IMpossible to CONclude whether ISoH works or not, whether they cancel each other out and if so, if both are cancelled or none are cancelled and etc
So from what we can know they both shouldn't be capable of defeating each other equally, therefore incon
Click to expand...
If powernull worked, Kenjaku would've just used SD, DA or DE. It's not like Isoh have some special powernull, its just a ct imbued into the weapon iirc
 
Nonynho said:
Both of them have equally comparable feats
If ISoH wasn't at least equally as menacing, Gojo wouldn't lose his time going after that and the Black Rope to destroy/seal them
Click to expand...
I mean the feats and statements say otherwise. ISoH failed to fully nullify Red from a much much weaker Gojo. Comedian can nullify everything in verse including adult Gojo's technique.
Nonynho said:
Kinda.
The manga goes out of its way to say he can stop all the physical damage but not the pushing effects
And what would make you think that Comedian would be able to block further, specially when his fights show him being affected by stuff much weaker...
Click to expand...
Because the amount he is affected is because he found that funny? I feel like that's obvious. That's like arguing Takaba is street/wall level from being hurt by the energy of the defibrillator in his fight with Kenjaku. He gets hurt because he finds it funny (and it is, it's a genre of humor. Ever heard of slapstick?). But he never takes any fatal damage.

If he finds getting flung by an attafck funny like a Team Rocket character, he'll be flung by an attack, but that's all at HIS discretion.
 
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