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Does that mean Tier 4 Poof? Wow
Personally, still iffy about the tier 1 stuff, but Vader only scales to that during EP6, right?
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Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi
- Thread starter Shadowbokunohero
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- star wars
Personally, still iffy about the tier 1 stuff, but Vader only scales to that during EP6, right?
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I personally think tier 1 is tosh for like 99.9% of the cast, so don't ask my opinion.
OTG0001
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Dunno. I'm not a calclord so I can't say so myself. Tier 1 stuff is fine, there are other metas other than storms and physical feats. But knowing the incompetence of Star Wars scalers and how much attention the verse gets from mods, I don't think anything will be passed.
Vader doesn't scale at all to the Tier 1 stuff, unless you want to use coruscant nights' wanky metas for him, which I don't really agree with. He might scale with Bota though.
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There's a reason I don't really concern myself with the specifics of scaling, just where people like Marr, Revan, etcetera scale. I don't even really care about Canon for pete's sake lol
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Via oneness, yes.
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Vader has that?
Epyriel
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Energies that themselves require an exponential build up. With the entire feat described as “binding” them to prevent this before it goes off.
As a reminder, aside from this wacky interpretation of defusing a bomb as a planetary feat which is already hundreds of trillions of times greater than any other feat in the prequels let alone a… Type 1A Supernova??? (which resembles nothing the effect described), all for the sake of glazing a dude… who was killed by a normal guy with a sword who had zero Force powers.
Which he contemplated if it was within his power in 2001 short story Bane of the Sith which was released before the Bane Trilogy back when Bane was barely established as a character and ended up with numerous retcons when the actual main book line came out, including how he actually travels from Dxun to Onderon.
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He clearly was caught off guard here but sure
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I mean he is only street level when not amp by force
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Infinite 3-D table everyone!
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So we stomp on all 7B re:zero? I'm proud.
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By Vader I moreso meant Anakin + Vader, but "Vader" by himself had a mini oneness at ROTJ to kill Sidious IIRC.
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Man, when I expand the Force Spirit section it's going to be hilarious.
Because I'm afraid they're omnipresent in space-time.
That they bend the laws of physics to exist.
Because I'm afraid they're omnipresent in space-time.
That they bend the laws of physics to exist.
OTG0001
He/Him- 147
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"
Energies that themselves require an exponential build up. With the entire feat described as “binding” them to prevent this before it goes off.
As a reminder, aside from this wacky interpretation of defusing a bomb as a planetary feat which is already hundreds of trillions of times greater than any other feat in the prequels let alone a… Type 1A Supernova??? (which resembles nothing the effect described), all for the sake of glazing a dude… who was killed by a normal guy with a sword who had zero Force powers.
Which he contemplated if it was within his power in 2001 short story Bane of the Sith which was released before the Bane Trilogy back when Bane was barely established as a character and ended up with numerous retcons when the actual main book line came out, including how he actually travels from Dxun to Onderon.
"Source: Time by Time, Death Star
The scan isn't quite saying what you're saying, it just says that the energy can be built generally, it is not specifically talking about the process of the feat itself, and if it was, it would make no sense, given that there is no immediate means for the energy to somehow be built when the energy is specifically stated in the comic to be released, which are very much two different processes. Again, this is something you cannot simply prove because where else would the energies be coming from? how would they be built? You're assuming that there is an external locus of energies that aids it, which harkens back to my original point.
Whether or not its before or not doesn't matter. It contains force energies. Those force energies were about to be released. He bound the force energies to stop the release. Very open and shut. I'm really not sure what your contention is here.
Or if you want more explicit evidence, he just absorbed the force power.
Not quite, you just haven't done your research. Yes, the PT is comparatively lacking in such feats but is not devoid of them. One that comes to mind is Sai Sircu powering 1/3 of the devastation superweapon which was going to destroy Coruscant, or Jedi such as Luminara powering the Kyber which was going to power said superweapon, which the power she is providing explicitly being noted to be world-destroying.
There's also a reason for this, in that Jedi are not destroyers, but peacekeepers, and it would probably not be prudent for the Sith to willy-nilly destroy planets like it was an average Monday. Pretty much the entire Ro2 philosophy.
Or why people like Plagueis are more focused on dominating the immaterial Force rather than concerning himself with physical matters.
There's also a plethora of metaphysical feats, but that's a whole rabbit hole in of itself. One that comes to mind is Plagueis' death.
It quite literally does resemble the effect, if you read the comic you would know. See link #1. Whether or not it is it, or releases the same energy, I do not know.
I'm also really not sure why you're contending a comparison between two objects instead of the contentions I provided, so I suspect you have no argument against it.
Yes, he was killed by a guy, yes, he is a fodder jedi, yes, he preformed the feat. You can appeal to his pathetic display when it comes to his death but I find it unfortunate that it does not at all invalidate the feat being preformed whatsoever; they happen in the same medium.
And if you really, really wanted to hyperfocus on that, then the verse is simply just human level. Congrats.
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OTG0001
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They essentially come back from total destruction as well.
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Yes, I think it has potential for various types of immortality and godly regeneration, but I haven't finished the sandbox yet and I'm still missing some scans that you posted.
Epyriel
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An “exponential” “chain reaction” which you can “defuse” by “binding the energies” is basically just the Force equivalent of a big nuclear bomb - you just need to stop the excited portion before it causes the chain reaction to release its full yield.
It is indeed very open and shut, and the idea that the obvious conclusion is that Poof is planet destroying God is utterly laughable.
The Devestation is just a cross between the Death and the Corsair. The Jedi aren’t powering it anymore than Naga Sadow was powering the Corsair. It is the crystals doing all the work.
How this at all resembles whatsoever a Carbon-Oxygen white dwarf siphoning a parent star past the Chandrasekhar limit to trigger the ignition temperature of Carbon fusion to overpower electron degeneracy pressure, I have no idea.
He’s below the un-amped physicals of the likes of Pre-Mustafar Kenobi or even Vos, while even the likes of CW Anakin get ragdolled by the partial destruction of a Venator even when he brings his full power to bear.
If you asked the comic’s author if Poof could tank the Death Star he would laugh in your face.
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I guess Sith aren't the only ones who can do Force Drain
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You do understand that Force users are glass cannons right?
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Then you hereby remove any right to claim UES for force powers and must separate physical ability from force powers.
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Not really. Force users must actively use the Force to do whatever it is they're doing, be it augmentation of their stats or other powers. A force user being caught off guard - thus unlikely to be directing energy to any augmented durability - will naturally be subject to his own inmate durability, which as we all know isn't all that good.
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Force Drain is a distinct thing, not applicable here.
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Yeah I know but the question was on facetanking the Death Star, with the counter to it being force users are glass cannons.
Epyriel
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Force users survive each other’s Force attacks all the time.
OTG0001
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Conveniently glossing over the evidence that he absorbed it.....hmmmmm.
Nothing in any source says that the Infant is a chain reaction explosion akin to a nuclear device. In fact, they say the contrary--that the energies themselves, the force energies, are what causes the devastation. Nowhere do they claim that there are two separate releases of energy. You are just wrong.
The chain reaction statements also have nothing to do with the internal mechanisms so not sure why you're associating it with it, and id wager there are no internal mechanisms because the device is not a typical bomb which can be defused by a bomb squad (cutting the wires or sum) like you seem to think.
Guess poof was just cutting the wires in the bomb and binding said wires to render it inert, because theres no possibility that defusing it could ever be a broad definition.
SW encyclopedia: "A tiny statue carved by the Seylotts as a way of containing large amounts of Force energy generated by Shaa......which was known as the Destroyer of Worlds because when its Force energy was released, the resulting explosion could, it was believed, tear an entire planet apart."
From the comic "And the release of its (infant) energy will be like nothing the galaxy has ever seen"
Unless the referent has changed to some explosion independent of the release of force energies (which is the explosion), there is no reason to assume that they are two separate entities.
You have no idea what you are talking about and it's quite laughable. Do not just skim over the evidence that incriminates your entire argument. How did the crystals get powered again? Hm? What happens in the bossfight?
Why are we still arguing the inconsequential point of whether or not it resembles a Type 1A supernova, it's hardly even pertinent. The comparison was how visible it was over long distances. I am not claiming anything about the feat being it here. Please contend what I said in the original post or I will take your omission of contention as a sign that you cannot argue against it.
You citing low ends does not diminish any feats being preformed. TCW is hardly even consistent within its own medium (Ahsoka tanking a kiloton laser cannon with no life altering injuries, for instance) so not sure why you're even using it as definitive proof. If you're going to cite very low showings worse than building level then I wonder how you can reach any conclusion on where the verse scales, because you and I both know that the anti-feats outnumber the feats in most eras, such as that even your supposed "City level" consistency would be called into question if we took everything literally.
You can act as the arbitrator of the verse's power but it does not save any argument you or I can make if we take every single low showing at face value. Often, there's even context why the PT is largely weak compared to other eras, which in of itself hinges on a Metaphysical feat which boosts Palpatine to ridiculous tiers. So on what basis is your consistency made on? because it seems that there is none in your argument if you appeal to something which also turns your downgrade thread into a debacle.
I also do not see your extreme standards applied to any other verse with similar inconsistency and a multimedia nature, such as DC or Marvel, so I really question what you are doing here, or if you're not being disingenuous just like in our little Blaster talk.
I also do not care about the supposed "authors opinion" as you yourself have acknowledged that author quotes/opinions hold no canonical value. I am also not claiming that Poof could tank a Planet exploding. I'm not sure where you got that from.
I await better arguments.
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Don't even say such a thing, you might curse us.
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Don't tempt me~
Epyriel
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Nothing you have presented even remotely contradicts my account.
The whole point of the entire plot was figuring out a way to release the entirety of the Idol’s energies.
If the entirety of the Idol’s energies were already released then Poof would be a cloud of dust. The whole point is “binding” them to prevent their exponential release - akin to stopping the first few atoms of uranium from triggering a larger chain reaction. Be it described as “binding” as the word the primary source uses or “absorbed” as the secondary source does, the result is the same; defusing the Idol before it can cascade into an “exponential” “chain reaction” which will destroy the planet.
Uhuh. And how do these crystals work again? And why does no one just power superweapons directly? Or acts as their own superweapons? Because they amplify Force power. By multiple orders of magnitude. That is their entire point. TOTJ even gives us a direct correlation with how many crystals are available directly ties to the final output that Force users can amplify themselves to (supernova vs minor solar flare). Sidious even implies as much here.
Did you not even read what was actually being said there? She is marvelling at being a conduit for such power that can annihilate worlds. She very obviously cannot do so herself.
You are the one that brought it up.
If you think a rating below City level is more consistent feel free to make that argument. Then at least we would have a real rating.
The most consistent balance of feats and anti-feats is what every other rating on-site is trying to achieve. Most Legends characters regularly struggle with Tier 7 explosions but also have a few feats that can get up there, so that is where most of them should lie in my view.
Dude, Legends is by a GIGANTIC MARGIN the most wanked verse on this site. Even 1/100th of the anti-feats would see any other verse dropped a dozen tiers. The fact the Legends pages has seen so little in the way of updates and oversight is the only reason it is not in the same bin as every other verse.
Also assuming every person that ever disagrees with you is disingenuous is doing yourself no favours.
The point is you are writing fanfiction with your interpretations to try to wank characters to the moon well past what was actually being written.
You are claiming he has at minimum planetary Force power
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Where did that happen?
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I don't believe my current CRT is the slowest of them all. I think.
OTG0001
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No, that was not the plot, the plot was to find a way to destroy the idol and thus the release of the energies would destroy the planet.Nothing you have presented even remotely contradicts my account.
The whole point of the entire plot was figuring out a way to release the entirety of the Idol’s energies.
If the entirety of the Idol’s energies were already released then Poof would be a cloud of dust. The whole point is “binding” them to prevent their exponential release - akin to stopping the first few atoms of uranium from triggering a larger chain reaction. Be it described as “binding” as the word the primary source uses or “absorbed” as the secondary source does, the result is the same; defusing the Idol before it can cascade into an “exponential” “chain reaction” which will destroy the planet.
Uhuh. And how do these crystals work again? And why does no one just power superweapons directly? Or acts as their own superweapons? Because they amplify Force power. By multiple orders of magnitude. That is their entire point. TOTJ even gives us a direct correlation with how many crystals are available directly ties to the final output that Force users can amplify themselves to (supernova vs minor solar flare). Sidious even implies as much here.
Did you not even read what was actually being said there? She is marvelling at being a conduit for such power that can annihilate worlds. She very obviously cannot do so herself.
You are the one that brought it up.
If you think a rating below City level is more consistent feel free to make that argument. Then at least we would have a real rating.
The most consistent balance of feats and anti-feats is what every other rating on-site is trying to achieve. Most Legends characters regularly struggle with Tier 7 explosions but also have a few feats that can get up there, so that is where most of them should lie in my view.
Dude, Legends is BY GIGANTIC MARGIN the most wanked verse on this site. Even 1/100th of the anti-feats would see any other verse dropped a dozen tiers. The fact the Legends pages has seen so little in the way of updates and oversight is the only reason it is not in the same bin as every other verse.
Also assuming every person that ever disagrees with you is disingenuous is doing yourself no favours.
The point is you are writing fanfiction with your interpretations to try to wank characters to the moon well past what was actually being written.
You are claiming he has at minimum planetary Force power
You are repeating yourself. I do not see any evidence at all that you have provided that suggests the force energies that poof absorbed are the start of a chain reaction within the internal processes of the infant, instead Jango's comments are directed towards how the feat is preformed, by placing it in the power relays which is a point which would cause the destruction of the world since it would cause the most damage. He was wrong about the purpose of it though, as the point was to find a power source adequate enough to destroy the idol and release the energies. The chain reaction statements are also about what Jango would have done, not any definitive conclusion about the processes at play (which none are even specified, so your interpretation is pretty clearly....made up). If there is a source which talks about the specific internal mechanisms--or that definitively prove that it works akin to a nuclear device, I will gladly concede.
I also do not see any contention to the very language itself implying the same force energies hosted within the artifact are also the same ones attributed to being able to destroy the planet.
I played the game. Your arguments reek of a single wookiepedia search, which is also curious considering that most of your arguments are almost word-word to what I've seen thrown around on SI or comicvine.
In any case, you are very sneakily trying to say something the game does not actually support. The crystals are being powered by Luminara, hence why she's even there to begin with, as in the two other missions, the crystals were powered by the latent force energies of the world. She is not being powered by the crystals, I'm not even sure where that came from, because she's not being used as a superweapon, the kyber she's powering is supposed to go into the devastation. All the more proof you have simply not played the content you're trying to contend. Plo even remarks that here.
"She very obviously cannot do it herself" Did you read what I sent or not? 1/3 of the crystals are missing. They have to find some way to power the superweapon, and Sircu does so after her betrayal, as seen in the scan I sent "She's manually powering up the weapon"? She even powers specifically the Dathomir Crystals....you know....the one Luminara was attached to and was powering....she just funnels more power into it. And if anakin and mace didn't stop her, she would have nuked Courscant.
Or are you just going to ignore evidence?
I am, but I did not claim anything definitive about it. Its a comparison.
I do not think there's any consistent basis for any rating to be the true teller of the power levels, as all levels have a decent amount of consistency (even planetary+!), whether or not each level is accurate or not isn't the subject of this debate though. I will, however, say that most low showings is largely explainable and can be written off even despite the inconsistency.
That's really not true, there are other verses with wank that far exceeds EU. You wouldn't really know as you only participate in Star Wars and Demon Slayer, and thus your perspective would be beholden (and largely limited to) experiences with said franchises. I can name plenty of anti-feats for DC and Marvel for instance. Is Perpetua and TDK now planetary because they threw planets in each others faces, which had a noticeable effect? is the Flash paper level? is Superman barely a bullet timer? what about him losing to a multi-continental Godzilla? is Darkseid now human level because he lost to street gangs? Silver surfer being beat up by regular humans?
If we took all of those literally, then everything would be in a world of hurt.
I am not, I'm just saying you were because you plugged your ears and said "nuh uh" even though the evidence for blasters being lightspeed was in your face.
And sadly, I don't think that method of arguing has changed on your behalf.
Calling my "interpretations" (very ironic) fanfiction is a stretch. Just because you cannot read and think anything that remotely props up force users (statements or feats) is some hyperbolic jargon or is taken out of context does not mean people who actually understand the content are somehow doing what you're doing. Your asinine attempts at disregarding things because it appears flowery to you does not instantaneously absolve them of a higher rating.
I do implore you to still show me where exactly it is said that the Infant works akin a nuclear device, because you are very much hinging on it for your argument. Because none of the sources I've seen even remotely say it functions like it.
I am. I haven't claimed yet that he has planetary durability. The subject was whether or not he preformed the feat and whether or not it scales to him. I am not debating force mechanics right now, so stop putting words in my mouth.
Epyriel
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I’m not surprised to hear that considering how painfully obvious some of this stuff is.
Once again, the entire point of the crystals is that they amplify Force power which is why they built a superweapon around them.
And no, she was not marvelling at the incredible power to annihilate worlds simply because she is herself only a third as powerful as the total. At that point there would be zero purpose to the superweapon, she could just take a shuttle to Coruscant and level the planet in an afternoon.
If you think DC and Marvel are overrated on site, go make a debunk thread for them. Because from every other verse I’ve interacted with (JJK, CSM, Dragon Age, DS, ER, Bloodborne, Worm, Frieren, Witcher, OPM, STP, W40K, etc.) not even a fraction of the leeway given to this absurd string of Legends highballing would pass muster.
In other words, once again every accusation with you appears a confession.
That was my analogy from its description of an “exponential” cascade chain reaction that would destroy the planet that is prevented by biding its energies in an action described as defusing it in order to make it safe.
So what, you don’t believe in a UES for the verse? Because this supposedly planetary Force power seems incredibly elusive whenever it is actually put to the test.
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Please let's try not to remove the UES from the verse.
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OTG0001
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??? I'm genuinely unsure what you're trying to argue here.
I'm also not sure why her marveling at said power means she's automatically hard-capped below it. Right now you're arguing against the game; she very clearly powers the weapon in the final boss fight, everyone present says she is, and the prima guide also says she did, and since you want to use narrative arguments, if she wasn't powering the weapon, or providing 1/3 of the power, why the sudden urgency? Why doesn't she just fire it at coruscant because she's apparently a non-factor and doesn't need to power it? Why does she go to the kyber room and try and nuke the planet that way? I think Anakin and Mace were misguided here, she was never going to power the superweapon at all, and it was never going to destroy coruscant, so they can just go sit on their lawn chairs and take a snooze.
I don't. The example was to highlight the anti-feats as part of why your standards aren't realistically applicable unless you want to damn both verses to human level or something. Warhammer also has similar ones, such as them forgetting that marines can instantly clot blood and having them bleed to death, or ceramic armor being shredded by bolter rounds. Filoni for instance tends to forget that force users can survive falls without much problem yet has maul getting absolutely cooked by fall damage in Shadow Lord.
Sure, but it's not like there's any description saying (or validating) said analogy (i.e., the artifact uses the innate force energies it possesses to trigger a reaction resulting in total destruction of a world), and the individual scans I've already addressed, that they aren't inherently describing the means to destroy the world, but rather are made off of hasty assessments or generally describing how the artifact can accumulate force energy, not that it needs to accumulate force energy before it destroys a world, which is a rather key detail, if the artifact did not already have enough force energy initially than any attempt to use it to destroy a world would immediately fail, and the people would just be idiotic because there would be no way to get the force energy from another source, other than what the artifact currently holds. In fact, the descriptions in the encyclopedia (which align with the events) already say it has huge amounts of force energy; or that it was going to release its "vast amount of power", which, if it was a chain reaction, it sort of assumes the original source wouldn't have extreme amounts of power, would it?
what validates this further is how the general purpose of the artifact is to build force energies anyways, as a means of containment (and no, the purpose of the artifact was not to blow up planets, but the people did use it that way) not that it builds force energy while it is exploding. This aligns with the "exponential" scan, and the shattering of this containment mechanism would blow the planet up. The subsequent lines harken back to the energies already contained within the artifact--that which was going to blow up the planet.
And lastly, all that energy is simply gone by the end, and he is explicitly credited with preventing the detonation itself. (that which, even if you wanted to say it works like a nuke, was going to destroy the planet, as in detonations would blow it up)
Unless you can prove that the lines you sent are really talking about how it builds a charge while exploding, and not what I'm saying, as the purpose of the artifact, or that the energy required to destroy planets is not already within the artifact, then I don't see a reason in continuing this, because the purposes are very clear.
I'm not arguing about the UES mechanics, that is not the purpose of this discussion. Do not meander off topic.
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OTG0001
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Superman being hindered by broccoli ahhh antifeatAnd get they can't take a little bit of steam!
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Honestly, force users generally don't have great heat tolerance.
You know... blasters, lightsabers.
You know... blasters, lightsabers.
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But Vader handfucked blaster bolts!
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Well, he's encased in armor.
I could even say "force users don't seem to die instantly from force lightning," but I think that's more a matter of lore than an attempt to show that they actively resist. I mean, I think so.
Because when it's designed to kill, well, it's devastating.
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