Tier 9 Humanoid Tournament Round 2 Match 4: Alice Fuji vs Sans

[Rikimarox2]

Essentially folks with no Soul Resistance would be treated as having the same amount of HP has LVL 1 Frisk for Undertale folks, so he wouldn’t one shot but he’d kill her so quickly to the point where it’d basically be a oneshot especially due to his Karma stuff

Do we also assume a character with no soul resistance would not be able to move in the turn-based system of undertale? Ie if Alice were to have a turn based fight, would she simply not be able to move when Sans attack her?

 

[ARandomDude127]

Also I've heard stuff about Sans just leaving the fight and automatically winning because the system in undertale considers it a win? I'm confused here, wouldn't that just be a self-bfr rather than an auto win? Also I kind of feel like that just, ignores the whole purpose of a vsbattle thread lmao, since you aren't fighting or doing anything to the opponent, you're just fleeing. Can anyone tell me why that would take precedence over the SBA? Since Sans "winning" the battle by fleeing... didn't do anything to the opponent. You are not killing them, incap them, etc... you are just running away from a fight. Unless that somehow doesn't allow Alice to attack him again, but at that point, it'd be moreso an Incap rather than a full-on victory.

I HONESTLY dunno, his 4th Wall Stuff got hyper buffed yesterday and I haven’t been bothered to read it, I think it’s stupid as a wincon but if it’s an ACTUAL wincon for Sans’ then there’s not much I can do besides call it lame asf

Also apparently said 4th wall buff forces people to not do anything while it’s Sans’ turn??? I dunno, I’d Lwk have to read the crt.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I HONESTLY dunno, his 4th Wall Stuff got hyper buffed yesterday and I haven’t been bothered to read it, I think it’s stupid as a wincon but if it’s an ACTUAL wincon for Sans’ then there’s not much I can do besides call it lame asf

I mean, it is pretty darn lame, since you're kind of just invalidating the whole point of a vs thread. You're not fighting, you're not interacting with the opponent in any way or doing anything for that matter, you're just fleeing the fight (which SBA says they cannot do iirc, but since the system states it's a win, idk).

 

[ARandomDude127]

I mean, it is pretty darn lame, since you're kind of just invalidating the whole point of a vs thread. You're not fighting, you're not interacting with the opponent in any way or doing anything for that matter, you're just fleeing the fight (which SBA says they cannot do iirc, but since the system states it's a win, idk).

Ngl I had NOT expected this tournament to be so haxxed out, if I had known beforehand I would’ve subbed someone like Pennywise.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Ngl I had NOT expected this tournament to be so haxxed out, if I had known beforehand I would’ve subbed someone like Pennywise.

Idk how this tournament work, but it is pretty crazy seeing tame characters like Alice Fuji, Todd Fang, etc... then somehow having fking Khatep, the same guy that passively decays/ages you lifetimes by just existing (since it seems to be based on intention) and has NEP, PP, Acausality type 5 and Low 1-A range for their Soul/Mind.

 

[ARandomDude127]

Idk how this tournament work, but it is pretty crazy seeing tame characters like Alice Fuji, Todd Fang, etc... then somehow having fking Khatep, the same guy that passively decays/ages you lifetimes by just existing (since it seems to be based on intention).

“Todd Fang” and he has an Archie Sonic ass Passive Fate Manip (no diss to you I’m jusy SO salty I lost )

 

[Rikimarox2]

Weird ass tournament, man (No insult whatsoever to the OP, btw)

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Also I've heard stuff about Sans just leaving the fight and automatically winning because the system in undertale considers it a win? I'm confused here, wouldn't that just be a self-bfr rather than an auto win? Also I kind of feel like that just, ignores the whole purpose of a vsbattle thread lmao, since you aren't fighting or doing anything to the opponent, you're just fleeing. Can anyone tell me why that would take precedence over the SBA? Since Sans "winning" the battle by fleeing... didn't do anything to the opponent. You are not killing them, incap them, etc... you are just running away from a fight. Unless that somehow doesn't allow Alice to attack him again, but at that point, it'd be moreso an Incap rather than a full-on victory.

Why am I the only one who gets it?

This:

And yes, this would still function in crossover matchups under SBA through Verse Equalization as it is a canon fundamental aspect of the verse. You can't just say, “well, it's a game mechanic so we can't say for sure”, because that's an old argument that has already been discussed to death. Even then, the profile already states:

Breaking the mechanics is implied to be based on knowledge rather than magic, as it can be utilized even if the settings lack magical properties. Most characters are unaware of the system's existence and therefore fight normally, while those with knowledge of it can exploit its rules and loopholes)

Which essentially means that, even within Undertale itself, characters generally fight normally. The reason they don't exploit the system is because they don't know it exists. The same logic applies to crossover matchups. The mechanics exist under Verse Equalization, but the opposing character doesn't know about them. Sans does.

I honestly don't see a more reasonable interpretation than Sans gaining an advantage through that awareness. It feels like @Arceus0x is deliberately ignoring that aspect of the argument for some reason:

It doesn't really violate SBA in the sense that Sans is aware of SBA itself. Rather, he understands the battle system and knows how to exploit it to create a viable win condition for himself. In this case, he can simply leave the battle, and the system still treats that outcome as him winning rather than ending the fight with a loss. Under normal circumstances, SBA wouldn't allow something like this, but since it results in a legitimate win condition and is fully in-character for Sans, it can be used.

Of course, the opponent is going to see it as Sans simply fleeing the battle and assume that they won instead, which is exactly what happens with Frisk. The thing is, most residents of Undertale view things this way. They fight normally without any awareness of the underlying system mechanics. That's why Sans's awareness is important. He understands aspects of the battle system that other characters do not, and can exploit them accordingly. As a result, that awareness itself can serve as a win condition, even in a crossover matchup such as this.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Do we also assume a character with no soul resistance would not be able to move in the turn-based system of undertale? Ie if Alice were to have a turn based fight, would she simply not be able to move when Sans attack her?

OMG, not this again. Can we please drop the “Undertale is a game full of mechanic, we don't know how it applicate outside of it!!” kind of argument. I'm genuinely tired responding to this.

We already accept the mechanic as a canon fundamental aspect of the game, and it can be used in a crossover matchup under Verse Equalization. The game even further reinforce this by the fact that most of the residents of Undertale do fight normally. Just that someone who has knowledge over something higher than them (such as the system) can exploit this into their winning condition.

Take Sans for example, he acknowledge that he can “dodge” Frisk's attack, and we treated it as something special in the game. Even though lore-wise, they can dodge normally just like any other fight. Sans's awareness of the system just makes him more invulnerable in this case. Because he can avoid the system's unavoidable attack. The same goes with “turn”, they don't see it happening in real time, but it's there and it does have effect over the fight. Sans know this, and thus have any advantage.

What are we doing, man.

 

[Rikimarox2]

...But what is the winning condition, though? In SBA, a winning condition would either be killing, incapping, etc... but what did Sans do, exactly? The system treated it as a win, that's nice and all, but what did that do to the opponent? The System considering it a win doesn't really matter much if it doesn't do anything to the opponent for it to be a viable win condition (again, incap, kill, whatever).

You're also saying that the opponent would leave, and that somehow means... Sans has won? Even though the System didn't really do anything, and Sans left under the assumption that he has won, but in the end, by the SBA, it is still a loss, since he left the battlefield first and did not achieve the winning conditions required to win a battle.

Like sorry, but I'm just at a loss on how this could ever be a winning condition.

OMG, not this again. Can we please drop the “Undertale is a game full of mechanic, we don't know how it applicate outside of it!!” kind of argument. I'm genuinely tired responding to this.

We already accept the mechanic as a canon fundamental aspect of the game, and it can be used in a crossover matchup under Verse Equalization. The game even further reinforce this by the fact that most of the residents of Undertale do fight normally. Just that someone who has knowledge over something higher than them (such as the system) can exploit this into their winning condition.

Take Sans for example, he acknowledge that he can “dodge” Frisk's attack, and we treated it as something special in the game. Even though lore-wise, they can dodge normally just like any other fight. Sans's awareness of the system just makes him more invulnerable in this case. Because he can avoid the system's unavoidable attack. The same goes with “turn”, they don't see it happening in real time, but it's there and it does have effect over the fight. Sans know this, and thus have any advantage.

What are we doing, man.

....? Habibi, I did not mention any of that, don't put words in my mouth. I said if Alice would be able to move or not DURING the attack, because I did not know enough about Undertale anymore and would appreciate some info on it, not “Undertale is a game full of mechanic, we don't know how it applicate outside of it!!”.

Furthermore, this... doesn't really answer my question? I know the system exists, I know it is applicable, what I do not know if that means any character would not be able to move WHEN Sans attacks or not, ie in his attack mode where he does all the telekinesis shenanigans since he targets the soul and whatnot. Frisk was able to move, but I do not know if that translates to every character outside of Undertale being able to move during the attack.

Though, I am sleepy, so maybe I just didn't comprehend what you said correctly about the System being applicable to crossover characters.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

...But what is the winning condition, though? In SBA, a winning condition would either be killing, incapping, etc... but what did Sans do, exactly? The system treated it as a win, that's nice and all, but what did that do to the opponent? The System considering it a win doesn't really matter much if it doesn't do anything to the opponent for it to be a viable win condition (again, incap, kill, whatever).

You're also saying that the opponent would leave, and that somehow means... Sans has won? Even though the System didn't really do anything, and Sans left under the assumption that he has won, but in the end, by the SBA, it is still a loss, since he left the battlefield first and did not achieve the winning conditions required to win a battle.

Like sorry, but I'm just at a loss on how this could ever be a winning condition.

Oml. Don't mind my frustration, because I've been responding to ts for four pages straight when one could simply read the profile or the CRT.

The win condition isn't that Sans leaves the battle. The win condition is that Sans forces the system to treat his absence as a battle that is still ongoing and redirects it to something else instead, in this case, a literal nothingness. Even in Undertale, fleeing or quitting a fight is treated as a loss. That's exactly how the system works. In that sense, it already functions similarly to SBA. The difference is that Sans somehow manages to exploit that rule to his advantage rather than suffering the intended consequence. So the battle wouldn't really change if we used SBA because in a sense, both rules and system work similarly to each other. The opponent is then left fighting something that is not Sans. At that point, the actual fight has already ended, but the system doesn't acknowledge it as such. Eventually, the opponent moves on, gives up, or leaves, meaning they're the one who effectively flees from the battle instead.

That's the win condition. Sans isn't winning because he left. He's winning because he manipulated the situation in a way that causes the opponent to be treated as the one who abandoned the fight. So how is that a loss for Sans when the system itself normally treats quitting as a loss, yet still ends up recognizing his outcome as a victory? That's the entire point of the argument.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

what I do not know if that means any character would not be able to move WHEN Sans attacks or not

They wouldn't be able to, that's my point.

 

[GPR_Shadow]

Sans FRA

 

[Deonment]

It doesn't really violate SBA in the sense that Sans is aware of SBA itself. Rather, he understands the battle system and knows how to exploit it to create a viable win condition for himself. In this case, he can simply leave the battle, and the system still treats that outcome as him winning rather than ending the fight with a loss. Under normal circumstances, SBA wouldn't allow something like this, but since it results in a legitimate win condition and is fully in-character for Sans, it can be used.

The win condition isn't that Sans leaves the battle. The win condition is that Sans forces the system to treat his absence as a battle that is still ongoing and redirects it to something else instead, in this case, a literal nothingness. Even in Undertale, fleeing or quitting a fight is treated as a loss. That's exactly how the system works. In that sense, it already functions similarly to SBA. The difference is that Sans somehow manages to exploit that rule to his advantage rather than suffering the intended consequence. So the battle wouldn't really change if we used SBA because in a sense, both rules and system work similarly to each other. The opponent is then left fighting something that is not Sans. At that point, the actual fight has already ended, but the system doesn't acknowledge it as such. Eventually, the opponent moves on, gives up, or leaves, meaning they're the one who effectively flees from the battle instead.

That's the win condition. Sans isn't winning because he left. He's winning because he manipulated the situation in a way that causes the opponent to be treated as the one who abandoned the fight. So how is that a loss for Sans when the system itself normally treats quitting as a loss, yet still ends up recognizing his outcome as a victory? That's the entire point of the argument.

Characters and abilities do not and cannot interact with SBA, SBA is an entirely out-of-universe thing relative to the fight, Sans' knowledge of fight mechanics and what have you does not carry over because SBA quite literally doesn't exist for them.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Characters and abilities do not and cannot interact with SBA, SBA is an entirely out-of-universe thing relative to the fight, Sans' knowledge of fight mechanics and what have you does not carry over because SBA quite literally doesn't exist for them.

I never argued this. In any case, we can continue this discussion here.