The Judge, Jury, & Executioner; Hiromi Higuruma vs Sans (Jujutsu Kaisen vs Undertale) [2-13-1]

[God_of_perversion]

Isn't soul power and magic downright considered as a UES?

Undertale: The prelude of a series of big revisions (Part 0/?)

Hello everyone. It's been a while since my last CRT involving both Undertale and Deltarune, but the results are finally getting released, especially since today is a month since the 10th anniversary. The following is the prelude to a series of CRTs that will further fix and update both games...

vsbattles.com

Or does it only apply to soul power?

Any way about the judge thing

We don't know about the laws of the underground (besides one) and some one Never brings up sans being a criminal for owning hot dog stands and other things,even Undyne doesn't call him out so it's unlikely that he is commiting a crime

About he threatening Frisk: Frisk was a wanted criminal who literally was required to be killed on sight by the underground laws,you can make argument that sans is a criminal not by threatening Frisk but by not killing them instead
But many many monsters also don't kill you on sight and instead even sell items to you so who knows if you're required to kill any human on sight

 

[ARandomDude127]

Frisk was a wanted criminal who literally was required to be killed on sight by the underground laws,you can make argument that sans is a criminal not by threatening Frisk but by not killing them instead. But many many monsters also don't kill you on sight and instead even sell items to you so who knows if you're required to kill any human on sight

So then wouldn’t he be breaking a law either way? It’s either

A: It IS required by law for him to kill Frisk, and he knowingly neglects this duty

Or

B: It ISN’T a law, and Sans threatened to kill a kid which can be proved as a legitimate threat and not a joke by Higuruma

 

[Arceus0x]

So then wouldn’t he be breaking a law either way? It’s either

A: It IS required by law for him to kill Frisk, and he knowingly neglects this duty

Or

B: It ISN’T a law, and Sans threatened to kill a kid which can be proved as a legitimate threat and not a joke by Higuruma

Why not
"It is an order to capture the human but the order in question is carried out by volunteers and isn't a forced upon rule"

 

[koopa3144]

So, this pretty much comes down to whether Higuruma can get a Confiscation on Sans and if it takes away Sans' magic. Assuming Confiscation does take Sans' magic, he's pretty screwed since he has no way to fight back. There's a small chance he figures out he can ask for a retrial, but since he has no clue what Higuruma CT is or how it works, that chance is very low. The main thing here is whether Higuruma can pin any crimes on Sans since he doesn't have many blaring offenses Judgeman can pick from. A big thing I don't think anyone has brought up yet is that, considering Sans' personality, there's a good chance he confesses to any crime Judgeman accuses him of, especially if it's some random misdemeanor he wouldn't care about owning up to. It's important to note that Sans has no idea that confessing would be negative for him and likely wouldn't be crazy on guard, considering he can get a good read on Higuruma's character during the 47-second chat before the fight. Even if he goes for denial instead, I don't think Sans is gonna try too hard, and Higuruma's lawyer skills and whatever evidence he has should net him a win anyway.

I think I'm gonna vote Higuruma for now, since, besides some low chance scenarios, he should take this like 8/10 times.

 

[ARandomDude127]

I think I'm gonna vote Higuruma for now, since, besides some low chance scenarios, he should take this like 8/10 times.

Vote counted!

Edit: Also w pfp

 

[Sooshirohl]

There's a small chance he figures out he can ask for a retrial, but since he has no clue what Higuruma CT is or how it works, that chance is very low.

It's important to note that Sans has no idea that confessing would be negative for him and likely wouldn't be crazy on guard, considering he can get a good read on Higuruma's character during the 47-second chat before the fight.

would higuruma just not explain to sans how his domain works? he did it with yuji during their encounter, so i don't see why he wouldn't do the same with sans. and given sans is a lot smarter than yuji is i feel like he could probably figure out how to skew the trial in his favor a lot easier than yuji would

 

[ARandomDude127]

would higuruma just not explain to sans how his domain works? he did it with yuji during their encounter, so i don't see why he wouldn't do the same with sans. and given sans is a lot smarter than yuji is i feel like he could probably figure out how to skew the trial in his favor a lot easier than yuji would

He would, but iirc Higuruma didn’t mention the actual consequences of being found guilty until it actually happened.

 

[Arceus0x]

would higuruma just not explain to sans how his domain works? he did it with yuji during their encounter, so i don't see why he wouldn't do the same with sans. and given sans is a lot smarter than yuji is i feel like he could probably figure out how to skew the trial in his favor a lot easier than yuji would

Exactly, Higuruma explains his ability similarly to how you're explained the trial process before getting on trial. Sans' genius intellect and ability to read people would come in handy. There's also no reason for his entire magic to get sealed up when he has different magic types.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Actually would TP even count as part of sans' magic? DR sans (Who probably is just UT sans) can also use it despite no magic existing in DR's Light World.

Also there's no way sans isn't pulling his "You can't attack me, it's my turn" thing if he just lost all his means of attack.

 

[Arceus0x]

Actually would TP even count as part of sans' magic? DR sans (Who probably is just UT sans) can also use it despite no magic existing in DR's Light World.

Also there's no way sans isn't pulling his "You can't attack me, it's my turn" thing if he just lost all his means of attack.

That and also again, bone magic, gaster blasters and blue soul magic are all separate types of magic. Higuruma seals away a Cursed Technique, sealing away magic would be equivalent to sealing away cursed energy like in Yuji's case.

 

[Sooshirohl]

He would, but iirc Higuruma didn’t mention the actual consequences of being found guilty until it actually happened.

sans wouldn't know what would happen if he was found guilty, but higuruma would at least spell out his three options for him assuming he does the same thing here he did with yuji, so given sans being way smarter i think depending on what specifically he's getting tried for he'd probably be able to figure out the best course of action to mitigate his punishment

i don't think he necessarily needs to know what being tried as guilty entails, but he's smart enough to know getting tried as guilty would probably be bad

 

[ARandomDude127]

Also there's no way sans isn't pulling his "You can't attack me, it's my turn" thing if he just lost all his means of attack.

Well like, it’s not like Higuruma would be able to attack him either. Deadly Sentencing forbids violence from BOTH parties, Sans wouldn’t really have a reason to pull that card once Higuruma explains that.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Well like, it’s not like Higuruma would be able to attack him either. Deadly Sentencing forbids violence from BOTH parties, Sans wouldn’t really have a reason to pull that card once Higuruma explains that.

I'm talking about once Higuruma charges at him after Deadly Sentencing is done. Don't see Higuruma landing a hit on sans with his reaction speed before he uses it.

 

[ShionAH]

I find it so funny theres a dozen people here saying Sans stomps or wins and yet he is "losing" 1-0

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

We need to have stomp as official voting option in the rules that has to be tracked ngl

 

[Arceus0x]

Good idea

We need to have stomp as official voting option in the rules that has to be tracked ngl

 

[ARandomDude127]

We need to have stomp as official voting option in the rules that has to be tracked ngl

Too much work hoooonk mimimimimi

Not a bad idea

 

[Arkansalter2]

I'll go with Defense Att- I mean Higuruma. His domain should be able to take care of the Sansnanigans and from that point, Sans is just screwed.
Higuruma, low-mid diff.

 

[ARandomDude127]

I'll go with Defense Att- I mean Higuruma. His domain should be able to take care of the Sansnanigans and from that point, Sans is just screwed.
Higuruma, low-mid diff.

doesn’t count bruh he popped ult

Vote counted!

 

[LaserPrecision]

I dunno if his domain will even work on Sans, but if we equate his magic with Cursed Energy, I think confiscation would take away all of his magic. Not just one move. A Cursed Technique can have various unique applications and yet they all get confiscated. It doesn't just confiscate one.

 

[Arceus0x]

We need to have stomp as official voting option in the rules that has to be tracked ngl

I find it so funny theres a dozen people here saying Sans stomps or wins and yet he is "losing" 1-0

What if we just vote for Sans. If there's no stomp vote there's another way to make our opinions known.

I vote for Sans.

 

[ARandomDude127]

What if we just vote for Sans. If there's no stomp vote there's another way to make our opinions known.

well it’s only been called a stomp like twice, literally every other argument in favor of Sans is just him winning, not stomping.

If you truly still think it’s a stomp in Sans’ favor after all of this, then you’re free to say so, but PLEASE say so.

I vote for Sans.

But vote counted

 

[Arceus0x]

Man I need to read JJK so I can learn the forbidden Agenda technique

 

[ARandomDude127]

Man I need to read JJK so I can learn the forbidden Agenda technique

The most basic building block of it is to NEVER use reading comprehension skills in any conversation with JJK media

We don’t do allat here

 

[Arceus0x]

Anyways so Higuruma couldn't seal Sukuna's Shrine because he sealed his tool instead. Sans' Gaster Blasters and Bones (since Papyrus keeps his attacks in his drawer) are equipment. His soul magic is definitely magic but then there's the space time abilities which technically aren't even known to be magic as Sans keeps it in Deltarune where there is no magic. There's 4 options of what to seal here and none would immediately seal away all Sans abilities.

To add to this, I very much think that Sans can bail himself out of the sentencing with his skills.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I dunno if his domain will even work on Sans, but if we equate his magic with Cursed Energy, I think confiscation would take away all of his magic. Not just one move. A Cursed Technique can have various unique applications and yet they all get confiscated. It doesn't just confiscate one.

I mean usually there's a general theme tying a CT's applications together, not sure you can say the same for stuff like gravity magic, bones and sin-based SOUL poison.
Even then sans' TP probably isn't even linked to his magic and his 4th Wall cheating shenanigans definitely aren't.

 

[Arceus0x]

I mean usually there's a general theme tying a CT's applications together, not sure you can say the same for stuff like gravity magic, bones and sin-based SOUL poison.
Even then his TP probably isn't even linked to his magic and his 4th Wall cheating shenanigans definitely aren't.

Yeah if we look at the techniques, Sukuna's Shrine is all about cooking, Megumi uses various summons, Gojo has balls...

 

[LaserPrecision]

I mean usually there's a general theme tying a CT's applications together, not sure you can say the same for stuff like gravity magic, bones and sin-based SOUL poison.
Even then sans' TP probably isn't even linked to his magic and his 4th Wall cheating shenanigans definitely aren't.

There are narrative and figurative themes for almost every power in fiction. That doesn't change that the practical effect/ability of said technique are distinct. Sukuna can make slashes and shoot fire. That would be treated as one, so I have no doubt all of Sans magic based abilities get sealed. The only ones that wouldn't would be abilities that don't require magic (4th wall breaking or whatever else).

 

[ARandomDude127]

I mean usually there's a general theme tying a CT's applications together, not sure you can say the same for stuff like gravity magic, bones and sin-based SOUL poison.

Erm actually it’s not based on si-

Anyways so Higuruma couldn't seal Sukuna's Shrine because he sealed his tool instead. Sans' Gaster Blasters and Bones (since Papyrus keeps his attacks in his drawer) are equipment.

Are they something Sans like, has in his pocket or something? I had always thought he just summoned them outta nowhere. Sans would need to actively have them on hand similarly to how Sukuna had Kamutoke.

Also can I see when Papyrus had his stuff in a drawer, I REFUSE to believe the reason Higuruma gets smacked is because of PAPYRUS

Gojo has balls...

idk about allat

 

[Arceus0x]

Erm actually it’s not based on si-

Are they something Sans like, has in his pocket or something? I had always thought he just summoned them outta nowhere. Sans would need to actively have them on hand similarly to how Sukuna had Kamutoke.

Also can I see when Papyrus had his stuff in a drawer, I REFUSE to believe the reason Higuruma gets smacked is because of PAPYRUS

idk about allat

There are narrative and figurative themes for almost every power in fiction. That doesn't change that the practical effect/ability of said technique are distinct. Sukuna can make slashes and shoot fire. That would be treated as one, so I have no doubt all of Sans magic based abilities get sealed. The only ones that wouldn't would be abilities that don't require magic (4th wall breaking or whatever else).

Feels like nlf not gonna like man, they're separate things, cursed techniques stem from a specific chain of ability

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

There are narrative and figurative themes for almost every power in fiction. That doesn't change that the practical effect/ability of said technique are distinct. Sukuna can make slashes and shoot fire. That would be treated as one, so I have no doubt all of Sans magic based abilities get sealed. The only ones that wouldn't would be abilities that don't require magic (4th wall breaking or whatever else).

I mean, even then, the only reason Yuji lost all his Cursed Energy was because he didn't have a CT (At the time) and anything he could do any other sorcerer could also do?
If we're equalizing magic and CE, shouldn't sans only lose the stuff that makes him unique compared to other monsters, rather than the stuff every other monster can also do (Shoot bullets, in sans' case bones). Like if anything Blue Mode would count as his CT considering the only lads who can use it are Papyrus and sans.

Also again even if we say only his 4th Wall stuff remains, sans is 100% just going to pull out his special attack and force a stalemate.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Feels like nlf not gonna like man, they're separate things, cursed techniques stem from a specific chain of ability

NLF would be postulating his domain can neutralize anything and everything because it hadn't showcased a limit. All I'm saying it can do is something it has been shown to do. Shrine isn't a "specific chain of ability", it has one theme, but that's a thematic thing. Just because the theme of Shrine is cooking doesn't mean it's all one ability. That would also mean if a character has 100+ abilities but they all fit one theme despite being completely different that nullifying one would nullify all of them. Have one central theme =/= one ability.

I mean, even then, the only reason Yuji lost all his Cursed Energy was because he didn't have a CT (At the time) and anything he could do any other sorcerer could also do?
If we're equalizing magic and CE, shouldn't sans only lose the stuff that makes him unique compared to other monsters, rather than the stuff every other monster can also do (Shoot bullets, in sans' case bones). Like if anything Blue Mode would count as his CT considering the only lads who can use it are Papyrus and sans.

Also again even if we say only his 4th Wall stuff remains, sans is 100% just going to pull out his special attack and force a stalemate.

Bones are unique to Sans. As are almost every single one of his attacks. It would only be a standard thing if EVERY monster could use bones or any of Sans other attacks. I wouldn't call that equivalent to Cursed Energy at all. Now there might be some general magic in Undertale that everyone can do that I forgot about, but anything unique to the individual would get treated like an innate technique/domain of that monster in verse equalization.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Bones are unique to Sans. As are almost every single one of his attacks. It would only be a standard thing if EVERY monster could use bones or any of Sans other attacks. I wouldn't call that equivalent to Cursed Energy at all. Now there might be some general magic in Undertale that everyone can do that I forgot about, but anything unique to the individual would get treated like an innate technique/domain of that monster in verse equalization.

Bones are just the shape of his bullets. Bullet patterns are THE basic application of UT Magic, what differentiates monsters from the no-magic having humans.
Compare this to SOUL Modes, which only a handful of bosses have (Blue Mode for Papyrus/sans, Green Mode for Undyne and Purple Mode for Muffet).

Arguing that Higuruma's Domain would take away all of sans' magic is like arguing it'd remove all of Mahito's or Jogo's CE just because theirs is purple, or all of Yuta's because his is sometimes pink instead of the standard blue. And maybe it shouldn't be equalized at all

 

[LaserPrecision]

Bones are just the shape of his bullets.

Okay, and Cursed Techniques are just the shape of cursed energy. Gojo says CE is like electricity and a CT is plugging an appliance into that electricity.

Arguing that Higuruma's Domain would take away all of sans' magic is like arguing it'd remove all of Mahito's or Jogo's CE just because theirs is purple, or all of Yuta's because his is sometimes pink instead of the standard blue. And maybe it shouldn't be equalized at all

I was/am up for coming to an agreement on if it should be equalized or not, we never came to a conclusion which is why I said I don't know if the domain would even work.

 

[ARandomDude127]

That would also mean if a character has 100+ abilities but they all fit one theme despite being completely different that nullifying one would nullify all of them. Have one central theme =/= one ability.

Adding onto this, doesn’t Limitless grant Gojo a bunch of miscellaneous abilities despite the main application of it being Infinity, Blue, Red and MAYBE Purple?

Confiscation would take ALL of it away if Gojo got found guilty (of something not too bad).

I was/am up for coming to an agreement on if it should be equalized or not, we never came to a conclusion which is why I said I don't know if the domain would even work.

Feel like it should be, if it isn’t then Higuruma has no legitimate win-con, and just reducing this to a simple stomp by unequalizing it feels like a cop out.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Adding onto this, doesn’t Limitless grant Gojo a bunch of miscellaneous abilities despite the main application of it being Infinity, Blue, Red and MAYBE Purple?

Confiscation would take ALL of it away if Gojo got found guilty (of something not too bad).

Yeah, Space Manip, Mathematics Manip, Information Manip, Biological/Senses Manipulation, etc.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I was/am up for coming to an agreement on if it should be equalized or not, we never came to a conclusion which is why I said I don't know if the domain would even work.

Yeah the Monsters and Cursed Spirits comparison doesn't really work when we know CE is exclusively like negative emotions, you know, sorta antithetical to the "Love, hope, compassion..." that monster SOULs are supposedly made of.

That and lads with no CE being treated as an anomaly unbound by fate while in UT all humans don't have magic (Not anymore at least) and it's just normal.

 

[Arceus0x]

Verse equalization only goes so far. If it's a mechanic in jjk that a single Cursed Technique holds several abilities it doesn't mean it should automatically bind Magic to its form, Magic is a different power in the end. Magic has equal value here, under verse equalization I might as well say that a Cursed Technique is one type of magic. Jjk has no reason to have priority here.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Yeah the Monsters and Cursed Spirits comparison doesn't really work when we know CE is exclusively like negative emotions, you know, sorta antithetical to the "Love, hope, compassion..." that monster SOULs are supposedly made of.

Love can manifest Curses (Rika).

Verse equalization only goes so far. If it's a mechanic in jjk that a single Cursed Technique holds several abilities it doesn't mean it should automatically bind Magic to its form, Magic is a different power in the end. Magic has equal value here, under verse equalization I might as well say that a Cursed Technique is one type of magic. Jjk has no reason to have priority here.

Neither have priority. That's why it's called verse equalization. Not verse supercedence. In verse equalization, Cursed Energy and Magic would be equivalent assuming that was agreed to, and applications of it would be applications of a Cursed Technique. In which there are numerous applications for both. If we don't wanna verse equalize that's fine, I'm just saying if they are they should be treated the same.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Love can manifest Curses (Rika).

Wasn't that cause of the fear Yuta had of losing her or smth? Like CE is intrinsically negative emotions, you won't find a hope and happiness Cursed Spirit lol
I also feel like the point about how CE is something everyone (normal) has while UT Magic is exclusively a Monster thing needs to also be addressed.