The Judge, Jury, & Executioner; Hiromi Higuruma vs Sans (Jujutsu Kaisen vs Undertale) [2-4-1]

[ARandomDude127]

Thought this was pretty cool thematically, soo​

“Even if I‘m the only one, I want to keep my eyes open.”: @koopa3144 @Arkansalter2
Attack Potency: Scales to 382.57 Kilotons.
Speed: 13.14x higher reaction speed.
Lifting Strength: Scales to 2.45 Tons - Class 5.

“do you think even the worst person could change?”: @Arceus0x @Dragonite007 @God_of_perversion @XSOULOFCINDERX
Attack Potency: Downscales from 0.0005 Tons of TNT, able to ignore conventional durability with KARMA and SOUL Magic.
Speed: Higher reactions, and even higher attack speed with Gaster Blasters.
Lifting Strength: Scales to 443.19kg (Peak Human) physically, and 47.78 Tons (Class 50) via abilities.​

Incon: @Sooshirohl

Da Roolz

Shinjuku Showdown Arc Higuruma is used.

Both combatants start 7 meters apart.

Speed is equalized.

Both combatants are dead-set on killing each other, but still remain in-character. Buuuut they make their cool auraful entrances and chat for a bit for around 47 seconds.

Fight OST.

The fight takes place in the Last Corridor.​

 

[Arceus0x]

It's who gets a solid hit on whom first and then there's also the fact that Sans might be able to outplay Higuruma's ability. Higuruma could use his abilities to punch through Sans bones but considering the overwhelming LS advantage Sans has I think he'd be able to pin him down turn one and just stab him for long enough to where he just dies as Higuruma. Higu's reaction speed is faster but his combat speed isn't.

Now regarding Sans outplaying his ability, not only does Higuruma have to land attacks after the sentencing, idk if it would work in the first place since Sans uses UT Magic which isn't a UES as far as I remember and thus can't fit Cursed Energy criteria. Even if it does, it'd seal away one of his abilities only, which means he'd be gambling between Teleportation, Bones, Gaster Blasters, Platform creation and Telekinesis. Only telekinesis is a major issue but the rest basically let him LS stomp.

Finally, Sans is a genius and has social influencing whilst Higuruma's ability depends on the crimes of the punished. Since Sans never actually killed anyone in canon and has no known history we can't say that he has committed any major crime. I think the only one I can really think of is selling Frisk fried snow but like, he never lied about what it is and heck, he never even sold any. Anything else Sans has done was pretty much just being a nuisance to a few people (Papyrus) and that's it.

All in all, I think Sans either wins decisevely or straight up stomps.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I mean doesn't Higaruma immediately open up with Deadly Sentencing against Yuji? I don't see why he wouldn't do the same for Sans. In which case Sans can't attack Higaruma due to the no violence law inside the domain. Sans also doesn't really kill anyone so he doesn't need to worry about Death Penalty. But confiscation is likely. IIRC it's a gag that he always puts his bill on his tab to hold off on paying it ever (Correct me if I'm wrong). That should temporarily remove Sans abilities leaving him helpless. That makes finishing him off with anything relatively simple.

 

[Arceus0x]

I mean doesn't Higaruma immediately open up with Deadly Sentencing against Yuji?

Sans opens with immediate Soul slam and since Higuruma has a massive LS disadvantage he basically gets faceplanted and then stabbed through the soul a bunch of times

I don't see why he wouldn't do the same for Sans. In which case Sans can't attack Higaruma due to the no violence law inside the domain. Sans also doesn't really kill anyone so he doesn't need to worry about Death Penalty. But confiscation is likely. IIRC it's a gag that he always puts his bill on his tab to hold off on paying it ever (Correct me if I'm wrong).

Having a tab isn't a crime, Grillby lets him and it's all legal.

That should temporarily remove Sans abilities leaving him helpless. That makes finishing him off with anything relatively simple.

It only removed Yuji's ability disappear because he had nothing by cursed energy. Otherwise it removed the Cursed Technique of the combatant. Since Sans isn't a sorcerer and doesn't use Cursed Techniques he might not be affected at all, it all comes down to whether we can equalize CE to Magic. Also like, Sans has several abilities, something that most sorcerers don't.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Sans opens with immediate Soul slam and since Higuruma has a massive LS disadvantage he basically gets faceplanted and then stabbed through the soul a bunch of times

In all fairness, I do think Higaruma's LS is horrendously inaccurate. Pretty sure the comically large gavel he tries crushing Yuji with should clear Class 50 easily. But based on the profiles, yeah.

Having a tab isn't a crime, Grillby lets him and it's all legal.

I guess fair enough. I figured it eventually got to a point where it was obvious someone is just avoiding the bill and dine and dashing through a "loophole". But I didn't bother looking up the legality of it.

It only removed Yuji's ability disappear because he had nothing by cursed energy. Otherwise it removed the Cursed Technique of the combatant. Since Sans isn't a sorcerer and doesn't use Cursed Techniques he might not be affected at all, it all comes down to whether we can equalize CE to Magic. Also like, Sans has several abilities, something that most sorcerers don't.

I think the issue here is that "magic" is vague and can be interpreted as any supernatural ability unless the nature of it is clarified. We know it's a supernatural thing monsters are made of similar to how Curses are supernatural energy (CE) that uses the same energy for their attacks. I don't see a point continuing this tho if we can't agree the two can be seen as equivalents. So we should discuss that before going onto what it would nullify.

 

[Sooshirohl]

could sans get tried for selling hot dogs at his hot dog stand in hotland without a proper permit?

 

[ARandomDude127]

could sans get tried for selling hot dogs at his hot dog stand in hotland without a proper permit?

Probably, I mean it did charge Yuji for Unlawful Entry for entering that Pachinko Parlor.

Sans opens with immediate Soul slam and since Higuruma has a massive LS disadvantage he basically gets faceplanted and then stabbed through the soul a bunch of times

Wouldn’t Higuruma’s huge reaction speed advantage let him pull off Domain first though? I get that reaction speed is only for short movements and what not, but I feel like THAT timeframe would allow Higuruma to pull off DE before Sans soul slams him.

 

[Arceus0x]

could sans get tried for selling hot dogs at his hot dog stand in hotland without a proper permit?

he could but he could retort that he doesn't need a permit. It's the Underground and it has its own laws.

In all fairness, I do think Higaruma's LS is horrendously inaccurate. Pretty sure the comically large gavel he tries crushing Yuji with should clear Class 50 easily. But based on the profiles, yeah.

It is what it is

I guess fair enough. I figured it eventually got to a point where it was obvious someone is just avoiding the bill and dine and dashing through a "loophole". But I didn't bother looking up the legality of it.

If the owner doesn't complain then it ain't illegal. House rules.

think the issue here is that "magic" is vague and can be interpreted as any supernatural ability unless the nature of it is clarified. We know it's a supernatural thing monsters are made of similar to how Curses are supernatural energy (CE) that uses the same energy for their attacks. I don't see a point continuing this tho if we can't agree the two can be seen as equivalents. So we should discuss that before going onto what it would nullify.

ig

 

[Arceus0x]

Probably, I mean it did charge Yuji for Unlawful Entry for entering that Pachinko Parlor.

Thing is, that is a clear law violation. On the other hand, Sans was under the laws of the Underground, and there's nothing that says he needs a permit or that he doesn't have one.

Wouldn’t Higuruma’s huge reaction speed advantage let him pull off Domain first though? I get that reaction speed is only for short movements and what not, but I feel like THAT timeframe would allow Higuruma to pull off DE before Sans soul slams him.

Maybe. In his fight with Yuji he slowly pronounced it and technically nothing would stop sans from just slamming him down before he finishes.

 

[Sooshirohl]

Thing is, that is a clear law violation. On the other hand, Sans was under the laws of the Underground, and there's nothing that says he needs a permit or that he doesn't have one.

then i don't really know if we can say sans gets tried for anything if anything he does can just get waved off as "well the underground follows different laws than japan does," especially considering we don't even know what the underground's laws are for the most part

kinda feels like there at least has to be some equalization of sorts made here so that sans can get put on trial otherwise higuruma can't really do anything and just proceeds to get soul slammed

 

[LaserPrecision]

he could but he could retort that he doesn't need a permit. It's the Underground and it has its own laws.

Do we even know the underground laws? And does his domain operate under Japanese laws or the laws of where his opponent is from or currently at? I can't remember but I think it was addressed before they used it against Sukuna due to him coming from the Heian era where laws may have been different.

ig

Does that mean you agree that the two should be equalized or that we should discuss it?

Maybe. In his fight with Yuji he slowly pronounced it and technically nothing would stop sans from just slamming him down before he finishes.

I dunno if that's an anime addition, but in the manga is was basically instant like every other domain that opens up at speeds far beyond the users combat speed:

 

[ARandomDude127]

Do we even know the underground laws? And does his domain operate under Japanese laws or the laws of where his opponent is from or currently at? I can't remember but I think it was addressed before they used it against Sukuna due to him coming from the Heian era where laws may have been different.

It’s under Japanese laws iirc, their only worry about Sukuna is that if his countless crimes from the Heian Era were something that needed to be accounted for if I’m not mistaken.

Mainly because they wanted Sukuna to get the Death Penalty, but because Judgeman tries each individual crime as its own thing, Sukuna’s minor crimes would stack up in comparison to his more serious crimes.

 

[Arceus0x]

then i don't really know if we can say sans gets tried for anything if anything he does can just get waved off as "well the underground follows different laws than japan does," especially considering we don't even know what the underground's laws are for the most part

exactly

kinda feels like there at least has to be some equalization of sorts made here so that sans can get put on trial otherwise higuruma can't really do anything and just proceeds to get soul slammed

would it even work? Sans would have to have comitted crimes in Japan for it to work.

Do we even know the underground laws?

We know Sans is the underground's judge and is thus directly connected to the king. Considering nobody complained about his actions, he technically would be operating under the law.

Does that mean you agree that the two should be equalized or that we should discuss it?

We should think on it

I dunno if that's an anime addition, but in the manga is was basically instant like every other domain that opens up at speeds far beyond the users combat speed:

Image ain't loading for me rip

It’s under Japanese laws iirc, their only worry about Sukuna is that if his countless crimes from the Heian Era were something that needed to be accounted for if I’m not mistaken.

Mainly because they wanted Sukuna to get the Death Penalty, but because Judgeman tries each individual crime as its own thing, Sukuna’s minor crimes would stack up in comparison to his more serious crimes.

So like, does he follow his own law system or nah?

 

[LaserPrecision]

We know Sans is the underground's judge and is thus directly connected to the king. Considering nobody complained about his actions, he technically would be operating under the law.

I don't think no one reporting/complaining about him equates to not having committed a crime doing that, but I'll put a pin in this for now until a later point in your message.

We should think on it

Alright, I think we should look at how magic is treated, it's connection to other esoteric things, and how it's used for attacks to see if the two are similar enough.

Image ain't loading for me rip

Ah, crap. Would an image chest link work for you or is there some connection issues or smth?

So like, does he follow his own law system or nah?

I always imagined his Domain followed Japan's legal system since that's the only legal system he was ever educated in (and the "corruption" of which was what resulted in Higuruma developing a courtroom based technique in the first place). I could be wrong, and that's an assumption on my part, but I don't think Gege considered different laws for the domain when conceiving of it.

 

[Arceus0x]

I don't think no one reporting/complaining about him equates to not having committed a crime doing that, but I'll put a pin in this for now until a later point in your message.

Sure but we still can't for sure say its a crime. It's like looking at someone going fast on a road and immediately assuming they're speeding

Alright, I think we should look at how magic is treated, it's connection to other esoteric things, and how it's used for attacks to see if the two are similar enough.

I ought to call Strym here since he's the expert on how UT magic works but in general it is a power that is related to the monster's whole existence. Magic is inherent to monsters as they are made of it while we also know some humans can use magic through unknown means. Monster magic is just that, a type of force they use to control elements, create stuff, make weapons ect. In Sans' case it also extends to such things as space-time. Technically magic types should be separate like Toriel has fire magic and Papyrus has bone magic as well as blue soul attack. Sans seems to be proficient in a variety of magic types like the ones listed in his profile.

Ah, crap. Would an image chest link work for you or is there some connection issues or smth?

could ya gimmie a imgur link?

I always imagined his Domain followed Japan's legal system since that's the only legal system he was ever educated in (and the "corruption" of which was what resulted in Higuruma developing a courtroom based technique in the first place). I could be wrong, and that's an assumption on my part, but I don't think Gege considered different laws for the domain when conceiving of it.

Then I kinda doubt he could actually try sans. Sans is, again, very smart and has a great deal of wit, not to mention he has insane capabilities in terms of reading people, guessing how many times a someone has died based on merely their expression. I think being a judge should help as well. All in all, I think Sans can actually defend himself here with the fact that he isn't from Japan and the underground has other rules. Even then, assuming he is doing things without a permit is not really right since that is merely an assumption.

 

[ScoutManeater]

I feel like even if you want to argue Higgy gets it off at most he would get confiscation due to it being pretty minor whatever you COULD get off on sans and besides that I feel like magic and CE would equal to eachother and since stuff like bones and gaster blasters need magic just as much as CT needs CE higgy would just take either bones or gaster blasters away and either way sans still has wincons

 

[LaserPrecision]

Sure but we still can't for sure say its a crime. It's like looking at someone going fast on a road and immediately assuming they're speeding

I mean that example's not the best because you can usually tell someone is speeding by looking at them on the road even without a speedometer. If someone zips by near a school zone, chances are they're speeding. But I get the sentiment.

I ought to call Strym here since he's the expert on how UT magic works but in general it is a power that is related to the monster's whole existence. Magic is inherent to monsters as they are made of it while we also know some humans can use magic through unknown means. Monster magic is just that, a type of force they use to control elements, create stuff, make weapons ect. In Sans' case it also extends to such things as space-time. Technically magic types should be separate like Toriel has fire magic and Papyrus has bone magic as well as blue soul attack. Sans seems to be proficient in a variety of magic types like the ones listed in his profile.

Is Magic connected to their soul at all? Either way it does seem similar in that aspect. Cursed Energy is related to a Curse's entire existence (They are comprised solely of Cursed Energy) and can use their CE for a variety of elemental, create stuff/make weapons, and a variety of other esoteric abilities (Space-Time is smth Cursed Energy and Jujutsu encompass too). Humans are also capable of using Cursed Energy despite not being made of it similar to how humans in Undertale can use Magic.

could ya gimmie a imgur link?

Here.

Then I kinda doubt he could actually try sans. Sans is, again, very smart and has a great deal of wit, not to mention he has insane capabilities in terms of reading people, guessing how many times a someone has died based on merely their expression. I think being a judge should help as well. All in all, I think Sans can actually defend himself here with the fact that he isn't from Japan and the underground has other rules. Even then, assuming he is doing things without a permit is not really right since that is merely an assumption.

I guess this is Gege's fault for being kind of vague. But I won't push for it if Sans never committed any crime to begin with (That we know of anyways). That said, I don't think Sans being a judge matters much when the only thing he's shown to do is be an executioner, not do any formal court hearings. Nor is his information analysis shown to do much beyond being able to tell how someone feels and how many times they've died in the past (Assuming they even remember that). That is, if it did even come to a proper court trial. But if there's no crime, there's no trial.

 

[ARandomDude127]

But if there's no crime, there's no trial.

I mean, depending on the route maybe Sans could be put on trial for killing Frisk over and over again? Or at least once if you don’t think Judgeman would be aware of the resets.

Plus, wasn’t Sans like, poised to murk Frisk near the beginning of the game had Toriel not told him to not go through with it? I get that I MAY be grasping at straws here, but I feel like it could be implied that Sans at least had something to do with the deaths of the other humans that went down there, given he’s the one guarding the space between the Ruins & Snowdin iirc.

 

[Sooshirohl]

you might be able to argue sans getting tried for making threats against another person's life

(i don't know why that dolphin head is over frisk's head i just grabbed the first photo i saw with this dialogue )

 

[ARandomDude127]

(i don't know why that dolphin head is over frisk's head i just grabbed the first photo i saw with this dialogue )

Idk man all I’m seeing is canon gameplay here

 

[Arceus0x]

I mean, depending on the route maybe Sans could be put on trial for killing Frisk over and over again? Or at least once if you don’t think Judgeman would be aware of the resets.

Plus, wasn’t Sans like, poised to murk Frisk near the beginning of the game had Toriel not told him to not go through with it? I get that I MAY be grasping at straws here, but I feel like it could be implied that Sans at least had something to do with the deaths of the other humans that went down there, given he’s the one guarding the space between the Ruins & Snowdin iirc.

you might be able to argue sans getting tried for making threats against another person's life

(i don't know why that dolphin head is over frisk's head i just grabbed the first photo i saw with this dialogue )

Thing is he isn't threatening us directly, he's saying that he would've killed them and then ge says it was a joke. Wouldn't hold up in court.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Its like yall want him to have comitted a crime

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Sans always uses lowercase, even when he starts a sentence. That's clearly a violation of the rules of grammar. Wrap it up.

 

[Sooshirohl]

Its like yall want him to have comitted a crime

sans is a VILE and DESPICABLE person and he needs to be PUNISHED for his crimes

 

[Sooshirohl]

Thing is he isn't threatening us directly, he's saying that he would've killed them and then ge says it was a joke. Wouldn't hold up in court.

i don't know if brushing it off as a joke would really hold up in court, like if i told someone that i was going to shoot them in the face and seemed very serious about it i don't think the cops would let me go with a slap on the wrist if i just told them i was kidding lol

 

[Arceus0x]

Frisk deaths wouldn't count either. Not only is it self defense, Frisk kills Sans at the end of the fight and Sans can only guess how many times they died. Sans isn't in the "right before dying to Frisk" key here and Higuruma doesn't have Low 1-C clairvoyance, so Sans can't be tried for that.

 

[Arceus0x]

i don't know if brushing it off as a joke would really hold up in court, like if i told someone that i was going to shoot them in the face and seemed very serious about it i don't think the cops would let me go with a slap on the wrist if i just told them i was kidding lol

Except he didn't say he would shoot you in the face, he said if he didn't make a promise then he would've killed you (you, a wanted criminal in that kingdom) and then he says it's a joke. Things like that don't hold up in court as he never made a direct active threat.

 

[ARandomDude127]

Thing is he isn't threatening us directly, he's saying that he would've killed them and then ge says it was a joke. Wouldn't hold up in court.

But wouldn’t this actively disprove that?

With the promise in question being this.

Its like yall want him to have comitted a crime

Sans is a MENACE, he’s a THIEF, he’s a CRIMINAL, I want that lazy ahh skeleton PROSECUTED, I want him strung up by his BONES

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Btw even if Sans somehow gets a confiscation, he’s only confiscating the Gaster Blasters

 

[Sooshirohl]

Btw even if Sans somehow gets a confiscation, he’s only confiscating the Gaster Blasters

would the blasters count as "tools?" or would they just be tied to sans' magic as a whole? cause yeah if they're considered tools then higuruma's domain would prioritize them first, otherwise if higuruma gets confiscation off and they're just considered an extension of his magic as a whole then sans just gets his magic taken away and he's kind of cooked from there

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

would the blasters count as "tools?" or would they just be tied to sans' magic as a whole? cause yeah if they're considered tools then higuruma's domain would prioritize them first, otherwise if higuruma gets confiscation off and they're just considered an extension of his magic as a whole then sans just gets his magic taken away and he's kind of cooked from there

Gaster Blasters are weapons. It's even listed as equipment.

 

[ARandomDude127]

Gaster Blasters are weapons. It's even listed as equipment.

Even if we decide to go down this route, this only applies if Sans actively HAS Gaster Blasters summoned or on him like how Sukuna actively had Kamutoke on him, which isn’t his first move so there’s no way they’d be at risk of being taken away unless it’s something Sans just has in his pocket.

 

[Sooshirohl]

Gaster Blasters are weapons. It's even listed as equipment.

damn then i think higuruma is kind of just cooked here i'm ngl

either A. sans gets tried and he can just wave his crimes off as "underground laws differing from japanese laws", B. he just doesn't have anything that he can get properly tried with, or C. even if he does get tried and higuruma gets confiscation off he only takes the gaster blasters which still leaves sans with the rest of his magic and from there he just pummels him down with his soul hax

either sans wins very definitively or this is a stomp

 

[Sooshirohl]

Even if we decide to go down this route, this only applies if Sans actively HAS Gaster Blasters summoned or on him like how Sukuna actively had Kamutoke on him, which isn’t his first move so there’s no way they’d be at risk of being taken away unless it’s something Sans just has in his pocket.

is that how that works? i guess it makes sense but i mean i'm pretty sure sans does technically have them with him at all times, he just summons them whenever he uses them in attacks so idk how judgeman would interpret that

 

[ARandomDude127]

is that how that works? i guess it makes sense but i mean i'm pretty sure sans does technically have them with him at all times, he just summons them whenever he uses them in attacks so idk how judgeman would interpret that

Yeah, only reason Sukuna didn’t get any of his CT’s removed is because he actively had Kamutoke on him, the Ten Shadows technique also has summons like Gaster Blasters and it didn’t go for that either.

The Gaster Blasters are just summons iirc, and because they aren’t something Sans physically carries on him they either A: Aren’t at risk of being confiscated at all, or B: Just get lumped in with the rest of his powers as something for Judgeman to take away.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Gaster Blasters are weapons. It's even listed as equipment.

Equipment also counts summoning.

 

[ShionAH]

Sans stomps

 

[ARandomDude127]

Sans stomps

Damn bru like not even a second thought?

 

[Mommyleona]

Equipment also counts summoning.

Not in JJK

Sans doesnt carry a gaster blaster in his pocket for that to matter

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Not in JJK

I’m just explaining why it is put in equipment on his profile.