Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

[Hypertornado099]

in the actual thread it was discussed with mods and the conclusion was that we do get some varies ratings. It's one thing when a legendary is an individual creature, they mostly aren't inconsistent, Necrozma always lights up the world, Groudon and Kyogre always lift the continents, ect. but when a Legendary Pokemon is explicitly a species then the game changes a bit as suddenly their power can vary throughout their appearances. There's often a minimum, like Lugia having a High 6-C feat in Pokedex, but then other appearances proceed to vary. Another example of a mon that shouldn't be scaled as an individual is Darkrai who we've seen scale around High 6-A (Tobias), 5-B to High 3-A (Z-A and Journeys) and Low 1-C (Darkrai movie, Pokepark technically). Knowing that there's more than 1 Darkrai shows that we can have them vary in power and that comes from the inherent feature of species profiles to have one.
I am currently also focusing on Mewtwo as I believe he is even more of a special case. I think Mewtwo should be scaled fully as separate characters. Whilst other mons like Groudon and Kyogre have been more of a setting Legendary that doesn't change at all throughout it's appearances, Mewtwo is very different. Mewtwo isn't ancient and is created by multiple different organizations. He is treated more as a character throughout the media with his own story beats and changes. Game Mewtwo is actually kinda difficult to scale because there's potentially 2 different Mewtwos for whatever reason (Teaml Flare lore really threw a wrench into the whole thing). Anime Mewtwo would be pretty powerful as he outright says in Mewtwo Returns that he has grown far beyond what Giovani has seen and then in Journeys whoops Ash's ass. Manga Mewtwo is kind of a fraud was actually made by Blaine and has differences on a biological level, not to mention that it's been trained, meaning its different from the rest. M16 Mewtwo isn't really canon and is a separate thing entirely.
This change would probably shift around the entire Black and White scaling but I'll figure it out.

I thought about the Mewtwo recently too. Speaking of Mewtwo, I feel like he has to get downgraded, probably lower into the same tier, in Adventures (or at the very least lose the current justification). He fights with Deoxys, sure, but Deoxys doesn't really scale to Grand Meteor Delta in the manga. The manga's portrayal of the meteor is much stronger than the one in the games, and it seems to be bigger. Mega Rayquaza couldn't even destroy it alone, and yet Mega Rayquaza can clash with Deoxys in that manga

Maybe they scale to like, a hundredth or thousandth of the meteor idk

 

[Arceus0x]

I thought about the Mewtwo recently too. Speaking of Mewtwo, I feel like he has to get downgraded, probably lower into the same tier, in Adventures (or at the very least lose the current justification). He fights with Deoxys, sure, but Deoxys doesn't really scale to Grand Meteor Delta in the manga. The manga's portrayal of the meteor is much stronger than the one in the games, and it seems to be bigger. Mega Rayquaza couldn't even destroy it alone, and yet Mega Rayquaza can clash with Deoxys in that manga

Maybe they scale to like, a hundredth or thousandth of the meteor idk

I will be revising Mewtwo how I believe it to be fit. I'll also be revisiting the various feats and such.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I made a document for the purpose of documenting how Pokemon moves correspond to VSBW powers & abilities if that helps. I believe anyone should be able to edit it: https://docs.google.com/document/d/...edit?usp=drive_web&ouid=116211783678743576468

 

[Arceus0x]

I made a document for the purpose of documenting how Pokemon moves correspond to VSBW powers & abilities if that helps. I believe anyone should be able to edit it: https://docs.google.com/document/d/...edit?usp=drive_web&ouid=116211783678743576468

Pretty sure Bobsican was already doing that to a greater extent. Gotta ask.

 

[Hypertornado099]

I will be revising Mewtwo how I believe it to be fit. I'll also be revisiting the various feats and such.

What other feats does he have?

 

[Arceus0x]

What other feats does he have?

talking about feats in general.

 

[Jinx666]

Why is Pokken Mewtwo even part of the mainline page ngl, nothing like Shadow Mewtwo or its role in the story is representative of the mainline

 

[Hypertornado099]

Why is Pokken Mewtwo even part of the mainline page ngl, nothing like Shadow Mewtwo or its role in the story is representative of the mainline

I feel like that Mewtwo has a reason to be separated

 

[AyOgUyS]

Why is Pokken Mewtwo even part of the mainline page ngl, nothing like Shadow Mewtwo or its role in the story is representative of the mainline

Perhaps it is possible for us to find the CRT that added that?

 

[Arceus0x]

Perhaps it is possible for us to find the CRT that added that?

whether or not we find it it doesn't really contradict mainline. Shadow Mewtwo is still part of the game verse, it's abilities aren't beyond what we've seen game mewtwo do outside of creation which is unique for that transformation. Shadow transformations are also canon (Shadow Lugia). Technically I can't think of anything that really makes it that much different, even stuff like the synchro machine used in the verse is fitting considering we have one in SV.

I will, however, be separating this Mewtwo profile as it is technically trained and should be above game Mewtwo stats regardless.

 

[AyOgUyS]

whether or not we find it it doesn't really contradict mainline. Shadow Mewtwo is still part of the game verse, it's abilities aren't beyond what we've seen game mewtwo do outside of creation which is unique for that transformation. Shadow transformations are also canon (Shadow Lugia). Technically I can't think of anything that really makes it that much different, even stuff like the synchro machine used in the verse is fitting considering we have one in SV.

I will, however, be separating this Mewtwo profile as it is technically trained and should be above game Mewtwo stats regardless.

Ok. What other profiles need revision the most?

 

[Arceus0x]

Ok. What other profiles need revision the most?

I mean I am working on the legendary stuff so for now look around the verse page.
I think most of the trainer profiles need deletion and I will see to that (they haven't been updated since God knows how long)
but you ought to look for profiles that have either outdated stats or stuff from PMD they shouldn't have (IQ skills and such).
Here is a profile that is up to modern standards. Either edit profiles up to these standards or make a separate CRT where you make several updated profiles with high quality and get them accepted.

If you don't have that much time, look for any FTL rating that links to Golem and make it link to Pinsir instead like in the Charizard profile.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I mean I am working on the legendary stuff so for now look around the verse page.
I think most of the trainer profiles need deletion and I will see to that (they haven't been updated since God knows how long)
but you ought to look for profiles that have either outdated stats or stuff from PMD they shouldn't have (IQ skills and such).
Here is a profile that is up to modern standards. Either edit profiles up to these standards or make a separate CRT where you make several updated profiles with high quality and get them accepted.

If you don't have that much time, look for any FTL rating that links to Golem and make it link to Pinsir instead like in the Charizard profile.

I will get to that whenever I can.

 

[Jinx666]

Tbf I would like to ask about some of the logic being used in regards to what we 'deny' about the anime being dissimilar to the games.

Why exactly is a Pinsir intercepting a Solar Beam once considered legit to use for entire profile-basis scaling of speed, but all the inconsistencies and unique aspects of the anime, such as Swellow Thunder Armour or pikachu using thunderbolt on an Onix ignored just for happening once? (even tho its happened multiple times)

 

[Arceus0x]

Tbf I would like to ask about some of the logic being used in regards to what we 'deny' about the anime being dissimilar to the games.

Why exactly is a Pinsir intercepting a Solar Beam once considered legit to use for entire profile-basis scaling of speed, but all the inconsistencies and unique aspects of the anime, such as Swellow Thunder Armour or pikachu using thunderbolt on an Onix ignored just for happening once? (even tho its happened multiple times)

dodging solar beam is a thing multiple pokemon have done in the anime as well as dodging other light-based moves. There's also supporting feats in anime and manga.

Thunder armor is a one time thing that never came back and Pokemon having unique moves and techniques is something that happens in games too. Pikachu hitting Onix was because he soaked him in water.

 

[Jinx666]

dodging solar beam is a thing multiple pokemon have done in the anime as well as dodging other light-based moves. There's also supporting feats in anime and manga.

Such as? (no aim-dodging examples)

 

[Arceus0x]

Such as? (no aim-dodging examples)

the calcs we have already on the verse page, there's a movie feat where a Hydro pump matches a solar beam in speed, there was a solar beam dodging feat from close quarters in XY and whatever instances of power gem I missed before.

Also like, no aim dodgin? These are calcs of them moving faster than the beam in basically every case.

 

[Arceus0x]

I do agree on one thing, I ought to find and calc more feats. Lacking in calcs =/= lacking in feats but I don't doubt that I can find more.

 

[Jinx666]

the calcs we have already on the verse page, there's a movie feat where a Hydro pump matches a solar beam in speed, there was a solar beam dodging feat from close quarters in XY and whatever instances of power gem I missed before.

Also like, no aim dodgin? These are calcs of them moving faster than the beam in basically every case.

I wouldnt start calling base Hydro Pump on comparable speeds to Solar Beam cause of that. It should also be considered that the writers obv arent explicitly trying to make these Pokemon Lightspeed on average.
Has Solar Beam, or even Power Gem shown any actual light-beam properties that this wiki requires to properly consider as LS, cause there are also a lot of standards too as opposed to whatever just looks like a laser.

Ofc if the mainline source like the games doesnt portray this either, and instead treats it typically as 100% accurate then that doesnt make it a completely solid argument.
Aim Dodging would matter yeah, since thats vastly differen tto reacting to the beam as its been fired out.

 

[Arceus0x]

I wouldnt start calling base Hydro Pump on comparable speeds to Solar Beam cause of that. It should also be considered that the writers obv arent explicitly trying to make these Pokemon Lightspeed on average.

Authors don't intend a lot of things but if we followed author intent then most of this wiki would be bunk

Has Solar Beam, or even Power Gem shown any actual light-beam properties that this wiki requires to properly consider as LS, cause there are also a lot of standards too as opposed to whatever just looks like a laser.

how do you think they got accepted all these years? Yes, they have several things
-directly called light
-travel in a straight path
-come from a reasonable or natural source
-diffuse naturally (solar beam travels through glass without breaking it, power gem refracts inside a gem and then gets shot out)

This has been discussed several times and accepted.

 

[Jinx666]

Theres still a sense of being reasonable instead of always going for the upscaled option.

When did Solar beam travel through glass?

Also Power Gem states it only looks like a gemstone, not that it actually is one

 

[Arceus0x]

Theres still a sense of being reasonable instead of always going for the upscaled option.

what's reasonable here is very much subjective, especially so since its Pokemon

When did Solar beam travel through glass?

I'll have to find it later but there was a moment where at one of the gyms the solar beam got fired out through the glass sunroof and it was untouched.

Also Power Gem states it only looks like a gemstone, not that it actually is one

It says it is light that sparkles like a gemstone and if you look at the Pokemon who learn it, they all have a gem in some part of the body or have technological/scientific means to make a ray of light (like Probopass with magnetism) with few exceptions. Even for the exceptions, when we look at the attack animation and latest anime depictions we see that several gems appear in the air and then light shoots out of them.
Furthermore this is one of the main moves used by Ultra Necrozma who is, ya know, the main light guy.

 

[Jinx666]

I mean that doesnt necessarily make sense regardless, since Solar Beam despite being light is still a concussive attack that bears force.
Solar Beam inherently absorbs light rays from the sun, and then focuses all that charged energy into a beam attack.

'sparkles like a gemstone' =/= 'a gemstone'. In fact, its actively denying its a real gemstone (using a simile) and instead is just a visual effect of the move. Power Gem doesnt act through those pokemon's gems either and instead conjures the gemstone-like projections around them. So no they dont literally make a gemstone to refract the beam through and instead its just how the move is constructed visually.

Im not gonna deny Pokemon can get FTL arguments (not necessarily on average) but having to composite it all when theyre clearly only evident in specific medias that follow their own rules (and theres probs a ton of antifeats) is eh

 

[Arceus0x]

I mean that doesnt necessarily make sense regardless, since Solar Beam despite being light is still a concussive attack that bears force.

everything in Pokemon is a concussive attack that bears force and then explodes. Light, sound, lightning, a poorly made rice cooker, team rocket getting hit a bit hard by some tiny thing flying into them ect. Otherwise, in every media we've seen it doesn't move anyone it mostly just does damage, same goes for in-game animations.

Solar Beam inherently absorbs light rays from the sun, and then focuses all that charged energy into a beam attack.

It charges the loose light particles into one beam, simple as that.

'sparkles like a gemstone' =/= 'a gemstone'. In fact, its actively denying its a real gemstone (using a simile) and instead is just a visual effect of the move. Power Gem doesnt act through those pokemon's gems either and instead conjures the gemstone-like projections around them. So no they dont literally make a gemstone to refract the beam through and instead its just how the move is constructed visually.

That is false and if you actually bothered to look into it you'd see that basically every time we see it used by any Pokemon with a gem it will come out of their gem.

Im not gonna deny Pokemon can get FTL arguments (not necessarily on average) but having to composite it all when theyre clearly only evident in specific medias that follow their own rules (and theres probs a ton of antifeats) is eh

That is your opinion however I disagree on the compositing, generally Solar beam does the same thing, charges up light then shoots it.

Anyways I have to go do stuff, I'll also try and find the thing I mentioned about the glass window, it might take a while cause I think it was in the manga (maybe??) but it was definitely a thing that happened.

 

[Jinx666]

everything in Pokemon is a concussive attack that bears force and then explodes. Light, sound, lightning, a poorly made rice cooker, team rocket getting hit a bit hard by some tiny thing flying into them ect. Otherwise, in every media we've seen it doesn't move anyone it mostly just does damage, same goes for in-game animations.

Whats your point then with Solar Beam penetrating through glass? Glass doesnt mean light shot concussively will pass through like a standard light ray will, it'd break. We cant just pick and choose what logical aspects to use in regards to that if there even is a feat as such

That is false and if you actually bothered to look into it you'd see that basically every time we see it used by any Pokemon with a gem it will come out of their gem.

Where? Cause certainly not in the games. Anime animations are always changing how they visually look as well so they arent reliable for any consistent arguments. Anyways, this is just one of the many many factors the games are in contention with the anime on.

Either way, the move's description directly says that its 'like a gemstone', a.k.a not a gemstone. It's clearly just a visual for the beam and not making any actual refractive gemstone.

That is your opinion however I disagree on the compositing, generally Solar beam does the same thing, charges up light then shoots it.

Charges the light and then shoots it into a concussive beam. Theres obviously still a change in the density and attributes of the beam, since its not like its reflecting direct sunlight beams. It charges, and then shoots.

Mixing composites either way to try and go for the strongest outcome possible when theres likely many other more consistent faucets and antifeats against it isnt ideal for a wiki that aims to be as impartial as possible

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Whats your point then with Solar Beam penetrating through glass? Glass doesnt mean light shot concussively will pass through like a standard light ray will, it'd break. We cant just pick and choose what logical aspects to use in regards to that if there even is a feat as such

Where? Cause certainly not in the games. Anime animations are always changing how they visually look as well so they arent reliable for any consistent arguments. Anyways, this is just one of the many many factors the games are in contention with the anime on.

Either way, the move's description directly says that its 'like a gemstone', a.k.a not a gemstone. It's clearly just a visual for the beam and not making any actual refractive gemstone.

Charges the light and then shoots it into a concussive beam. Theres obviously still a change in the density and attributes of the beam, since its not like its reflecting direct sunlight beams. It charges, and then shoots.

Mixing composites either way to try and go for the strongest outcome possible when theres likely many other more consistent faucets and antifeats against it isnt ideal for a wiki that aims to be as impartial as possible

Whem using solar beam + Sunny day you dont need to charge

 

[Jinx666]

Whem using solar beam + Sunny day you dont need to charge

Im aware, but that doesnt change the function of how the move works. The concept of Sunny Day being up just means the charge is faster, it doesnt negate the fact they need to charge (lore-wise), it only shortens the time.

 

[Hypertornado099]

everything in Pokemon is a concussive attack that bears force and then explodes

I'm pretty sure that it would still meet the criteria for "not light speed". The light speed feats page on VSBW doesn't list this as a valid counterargument

 

[Arceus0x]

I'm pretty sure that it would still meet the criteria for "not light speed". The light speed feats page on VSBW doesn't list this as a valid counterargument

Kizaru exists, all rules have their exceptions

 

[Jinx666]

And what justifies Pokemon to have those exceptions? At least Kizaru is explicitly and constantly stated to move at LS, with his entrie powerset being based on light (with devil fruit powers defined, unlike Pokemon where 'light' isnt even a sub-type) meanwhile you camt find anything for an entire 25+ mainline series

 

[Lynieryz]

And what justifies Pokemon to have those exceptions? At least Kizaru is explicitly and constantly stated to move at LS, with his entrie powerset being based on light (with devil fruit powers defined, unlike Pokemon where 'light' isnt even a sub-type) meanwhile you camt find anything for an entire 25+ mainline series

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

whem You guys are going to make the pokemon planet upscale ?

 

[Jinx666]

k but a serious answer plz, and from mainline

 

[Lynieryz]

k but a serious answer plz, and from mainline

It's serious. Anime is accepted as canon whether you like it or not, and as I showed, the speed of light is attributed to a Pokémon with the exact description of the value; you can't ignore that.

 

[Jinx666]

It's serious. Anime is accepted as canon whether you like it or not, and as I showed, the speed of light is attributed to a Pokémon with the exact description of the value; you can't ignore that.

A) Anime is a separate continuity. Thats not being argued, the wiki for some reason just thinks it can scale these different continuities to one another cause its part of the same 'multiverse'. Its not 'canon', the profiles are just composited.
B) Statement is literally never re-iterated or backed up beyond one mention. Theres a distinct lack of scrutiny or consideration of an outlier here (Especially when there are many antifeats against this)
C) I asked for the mainline series, which are the games, not the anime.
D) This in no way compares in frequency to how Kizaru's powers are shown and described
E) This whole statement is widely considered a joke. Ofc powerscalers will try and take it srs though, for a Pokemon like Diglett of all examples

 

[Mariogoods]

How to calculate thundercloud creation feat?

As the title says. In Episode 138 of Pokémon Horizons, a Pikachu create a small thundercloud by releasing thunder, and I feel that the thundercloud feat can be translated to this Pikachu's AP.

vsbattles.com

The thundercloud creation feat is from Episode 138 of Pokémon Horizons, and I want to know your opinion.

By the way, what about the current consensus of Pokémon Horizons' canon status? I heard that the canonity of Pokémon works has been under debate.

 

[Jinx666]

Still no solid confirmation its the same place as Ash's anime. Theres a few overlapping characters like Steven but still no solid proof.

I'd scale it on its own for now. I havent been keeping up with it honestly but it seems like a fresh place to start for independent scaling, and the characters are all decently strong since they can beat down pokemon like Zygarde and Rayquaza

 

[Mariogoods]

Still no solid confirmation its the same place as Ash's anime. Theres a few overlapping characters like Steven but still no solid proof.

I'd scale it on its own for now. I havent been keeping up with it honestly but it seems like a fresh place to start for independent scaling, and the characters are all decently strong since they can beat down pokemon like Zygarde and Rayquaza

I do feel that Horizons is not the same place as Ash's anime, and Horizons can have a independent scaling (free from the currently controversial canonity issue).

Of course, I found Jotaro Kujo VS Liko has decent connections and is writing a script for the matchup.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I'd scale it on its own for now. I havent been keeping up with it honestly but it seems like a fresh place to start for independent scaling, and the characters are all decently strong since they can beat down pokemon like Zygarde and Rayquaza

Sorry I forgot about all this but...HUH?!!?!??!?!

 

[Jinx666]

Not beat down as in they can specifically solo them or smthn, but theres multiple showinsg of them fighting and harming the likes of Rayquaza, 50% Zygarde, Gouging Flame, Galarian Moltres (and the rest of the comparable Six Heroes). This is even while their Pokemon such as Crocalor and Floragato weren't fully evolved.
Roy had caught Rayquaza officially, Liko has had Terapagos for ages now, even one of the side characters has Pecharunt.

The Horizons characters are definitely profile worthy, but i'd rather they didnt just fall into this wiki's composite scaling right now, and instead there was an actual focused project into them.