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Removal of Infinite Attack Speed in Bleach

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I am of the opinion, that the hax of the X-axis is superior to what it is currently listed at, as the effect is currently labeled as "infinite speed"

Once it's been fired, and your decision would be to dodge when the shot is made, even if you possess infinite speed, you would not be able to dodge, as it's effect is already there, it ignores the very concept of distance, as it doesn't have a speed, it's simply there, uniformly between Coordinate A to B.

Hence "the concept of dodging" does not exist when it's been fired, unless if you were to utilize hax, such as causality hax, and other stuff.

Infinite speed requires travel, X-axis does not, it's already there.

Take that how you will, and whatever hax that would include, i don't particularly care that much.
 
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Hellscream said:
I am of the opinion, that the hax of the X-axis is superior to what it is currently listed at, as the effect is currently labeled as "infinite speed"

Once it's been fired, and your decision would be to dodge when the shot is made, even if you possess infinite speed, you would not be able to dodge, as it's effect is already there, it ignores the very concept of distance, as it doesn't have a speed, it's simply there, uniformally between Coordinate A to B.

Hence "the concept of dodging" does not exist when it's been fired, unless if you were to utilize hax, such as causality hax, and other stuff.

Infinite speed requires travel, X-axis does not, it's already there.

Take that how you will, and whatever hax that would include, i don't particularly care that much.
Click to expand...
I agree. Even an infinite speed being shouldn't be able to dodge something that is already materializing in their gut. Which is why assigning a speed rating at all is misleading. A footnote for the hax should be a better solution. Plenty of hax exist like this that have range and cannot be dodged within that range, unless you aim dodge before it has been activated. X axis isn't special in that regard.
 
HelloThere1089 said:
I agree. Even an infinite speed being shouldn't be able to dodge something already materializing in their gut. Which is why assigning a speed rating at all is misleading. A footnote for the hax should be a better solution. Plenty of hax exist like this that have range and cannot be dodged within that range, unless you aim dodge before it has been activated. X axis isn't special in that regard
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If you want to go down that rabbit hole you can always do a '''higher''' rating for the attack speed with the explanation which I wouldn't really mind, I just don't think it's Teleportation that's the main thing I am contending really and obviously citation that someone with Infinite speed or below can't dodge it unless it's an aim dodge.
 
Cipher72 said:
If you want to go down that rabbit hole you can always do a '''higher''' rating for the attack speed with the explanation which I wouldn't really mind, I just don't think it's Teleportation that's the main thing I am contending really and obviously citation that someone with Infinite speed or below can't dodge it unless it's an aim dodge.
Click to expand...
It's not teleportation at all. Teleportation requires a change in coordinates which X axis doesn't have. I would prefer a note in the range section saying that using the ability X axis, he can create an undodgeable attack.

Tldr, I see it as more of a range thing personally. Idk about the wiki.
 
HelloThere1089 said:
It's not teleportation at all. Teleportation requires a change in coordinates which X axis doesn't have. I would prefer a note in the range section saying that using the ability X axis, he can create an undodgeable attack.

Tldr, I see it as more of a range thing personally. Idk about the wiki.
Click to expand...
I would personally note it down in the speed section specifically attack speed and cite the range limitation which is already there but I don't mind either or really.
 
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I would note it down, as spatial hax that ignores the concept of distance, it's an instantaneously materialized line based attack, that negates durability, and uniformly penetrates anything between coordinates A and B

The attack itself does not have speed, it's simply there, so i don't think a speed rating applies, when the concept of speed does not apply to it.
 
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Another simple way to explain it is Infinite speed goes from coordinate A to B, in a linear fashion, movement from point A to B, even if instantaneous

X-Axis on the other hand does not move from coordinate A to B, it's at A and B simultaneously, and any point between A and B at the same time, as soon as it's fired.
 
Hellscream said:
Another simple way to explain it is Infinite speed goes from coordinate A to B, in a linear fashion, movement from point A to B, even if instantaneous

X-Axis on the other hand does not move from coordinate A to B, it's at A and B simultaneously, and any point between A and B at the same time, as soon as it's fired.
Click to expand...
From what I gathered this ability doesn’t do A to B, rather it simple is at B without being at A in the first place

Hence no distance traveled or the concept of distance is not a factor here
 
AlternativePrinciple said:
From what I gathered this ability doesn’t do A to B, rather it simple is at B without being at A in the first place

Hence no distance traveled or the concept of distance is not a factor here
Click to expand...
No, this would simply cause a hole to appear into Oetsu, it also made a hole appear in objects infront of him, which implies that the way i phrased it, would be the most logical explanation of the ability, a line between coordinates A and B, it exists at any point between A and B at the same time.
 
Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye said:
Normal bullet:
A -----> B

Infinite speed projectile:
A =====================> B instantly

X-Axis:
A [effect directly occurs at B]
Click to expand...
A > B is dodgeable with infinite speed, or a layer of infinite speed or whatever, even if it's instantaneous movement, the X-axis however is not dodgeable, as it's already there, no movement being done, going from A-B instantaneously still counts as traversal from point A to B, even if it's instant

The ability is basically, exactly as it's described, just "dodging it" is impossible, with just speed, even infinite speed.
 
Huesito88 said:
Sounds like the same logic with omnipresence.
Click to expand...
I think this is pretty similar honestly, the penetration exists everywhere from A to B, in a similar fashion that omnipresence works, just limited to a straight line.

"Night omnipresent penetration between coordinates A and B"
 
Huesito88 said:
Sounds like the same logic with omnipresence.
Click to expand...
I could agree with listing X-Axis as limited omnipresence because, tbh, I do see the interpretation of it acting like spawning a bar or smth that deletes everything where it spawns, but omnipresence doesn't delete stuff and neither does just duraneg + limited omnipresence is basically existing everywhere within a range, meanhwile X-Axis' projectile doesn't exist at all
 
ItsMeat said:
I could agree with listing X-Axis as limited omnipresence because, tbh, I do see the interpretation of it acting like spawning a bar or smth that deletes everything where it spawns, but omnipresence doesn't delete stuff and neither does just duraneg + limited omnipresence is basically existing everywhere within a range, meanhwile X-Axis' projectile doesn't exist at all
Click to expand...
It does exist in a sense, it's simply an abstract penetrating line

so something like "X-axis is a nigh omnipresent attack between the muzzle and it's target, it uniformly penetrates anything between these coordinates simultaneously"
with the obvious durability negation

either way, i think something like that would be best to replace it with, and the most logical.
 
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Hellscream said:
A > B is dodgeable with infinite speed, or a layer of infinite speed or whatever, even if it's instantaneous movement, the X-axis however is not dodgeable, as it's already there, no movement being done, going from A-B instantaneously still counts as traversal from point A to B, even if it's instan
Click to expand...
So do agree that these is no distance travel, hence no speed
Hellscream said:
The ability is basically, exactly as it's described, just "dodging it" is impossible, with just speed, even infinite speed.
Click to expand...
“It’s impossible to dodge” are common hype terms. They don’t mean much here
 
The X-Axis should not be treated as having Infinite Speed simply because its effect occurs instantly within its line of fire.

A good comparison would be spatial slashes or attacks that cut space.

The physical act of swinging or activating the attack still takes time. However, once the attack is released and the space is cut, everything within the affected area is severed instantly. We do not normally treat that as Infinite Speed, because the “instant” part is the effect occurring within a defined range, not the projectile or user moving across distance at infinite speed.

The same logic applies to passive effects.

A passive ability may take effect the instant someone enters its range, and typically, we state you need Infinite Speed to 'avoid' this. But that does not mean the passive ability has Infinite Speed. It is still limited to a certain area around the user. Its activation is instantaneous within that range, not infinitely fast across all distances.

X-Axis works similarly. So, at most, it should be considered an attack with instantaneous effect within its range, not an Infinite Speed attack.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
The X-Axis should not be treated as having Infinite Speed simply because its effect occurs instantly within its line of fire.

A good comparison would be spatial slashes or attacks that cut space.

The physical act of swinging or activating the attack still takes time. However, once the attack is released and the space is cut, everything within the affected area is severed instantly. We do not normally treat that as Infinite Speed, because the “instant” part is the effect occurring within a defined range, not the projectile or user moving across distance at infinite speed.

The same logic applies to passive effects.

A passive ability may take effect the instant someone enters its range, and typically, we state you need Infinite Speed to 'avoid' this. But that does not mean the passive ability has Infinite Speed. It is still limited to a certain area around the user. Its activation is instantaneous within that range, not infinitely fast across all distances.

X-Axis works similarly. So, at most, it should be considered an attack with instantaneous effect within its range, not an Infinite Speed attack.
Click to expand...
I agree
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
The X-Axis should not be treated as having Infinite Speed simply because its effect occurs instantly within its line of fire.

A good comparison would be spatial slashes or attacks that cut space.
Click to expand...
Uhh no, they're not comparable, these spatial slashes still have a set travel distance, they do not simultaneously appear between 2 coordinates, they still act the same way as a cut does, with it simply cutting space.
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
The physical act of swinging or activating the attack still takes time. However, once the attack is released and the space is cut, everything within the affected area is severed instantly. We do not normally treat that as Infinite Speed, because the “instant” part is the effect occurring within a defined range, not the projectile or user moving across distance at infinite speed.
Click to expand...
And the attack itself while activated is not instant over the entire covered area either, the cut can become wider over time, or many other different factors, nothing of what you've described is equivalent to what happens here.
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
The same logic applies to passive effects.

A passive ability may take effect the instant someone enters its range, and typically, we state you need Infinite Speed to 'avoid' this. But that does not mean the passive ability has Infinite Speed. It is still limited to a certain area around the user. Its activation is instantaneous within that range, not infinitely fast across all distance
Click to expand...




Omnipresence is the property of being present everywhere, whenever and nowhere at the same time, referring to an unbounded presence. The ability lets you to be everywhere at once that is, at every point in space during a given instant. Some characters are Omnipresent within a single universe, while others are Omnipresent on a Multiversal or even higher scale.

Nigh-Omnipresence is when somebody is almost everywhere at once. An example of this includes being Omnipresent within a city or a planet.

Occasionally, the term is used in a limited way, such as "omnipresent in a city" or "omnipresent across the earth". While this is technically incorrect, the meaning is obvious.

As i stated before, the closest thing we have would be "Night omnipresent effect" within that limited range.
It behaves exactly the same, as it's everywhere between coordinates A and B.

"X-axis is a nigh omnipresent attack between the muzzle and it's target, it uniformly penetrates anything between these coordinates simultaneously"

Something like this is the most logical, to what the ability is described to do.
 
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Hellscream said:
Uhh no, they're not comparable, these spatial slashes still have a set travel distance, they do not simultaneously appear between 2 coordinates, they still act the same way as a cut does, with it simply cutting space.
Click to expand...
Spatial slashes that ignore distance, uniformly slash through everything between the user and their target, just like X-Axis.
Hellscream said:
And the attack itself while activated is not instant over the entire covered area either, the cut can become wider over time, or many other different factors, nothing of what you've described is equivalent to what happens here.
Click to expand...
This is verse-dependent, but it doesn't really matter.

We don't give infinite speed to any variation of spatial slashes that ignore distance.
Hellscream said:
As i stated before, the closest thing we have would be "Night omnipresent effect" within that limited range.
It behaves exactly the same, as it's everywhere between coordinates A and B.

"X-axis is a nigh omnipresent attack between the muzzle and it's target, it uniformally penetrates anything between these coordinates simultaneously"
with the obvious durability negation
Click to expand...
Just give it a Varies Range via X-Axis or Spatial Manipulation.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Spatial slashes that ignore distance, uniformly slash through everything between the user and their target, just like X-Axis.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that not really what happens though
It affects everything inbetween the target as well, not just between A and B, it also affects everything between, and between two set coordinates, there's an uncountably infinite amount of points, it affects all of them simultaneously, hence why i believe that the description i provided is the most accurate portrayal of the ability.

Edit: i read your comment wrongly, it's similar, if it appears and affects everything between the person that did the action, and the one that's targeted simultaneously.
But, simply because it's a spatial slash, does not mean it can't travel a distance, so i still don't necessarily agree with the way you described it.
Spatial slashes can also simply appear on the target itself, but not between every single coordinate between both targets at the same time
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
This is verse-dependent, but it doesn't really matter.

We don't give infinite speed to any variation of spatial slashes that ignore distance.

Just give it a Varies Range via X-Axis or Spatial Manipulation.
Click to expand...
(I don't believe it has infinite speed, it has no speed at all, it's simply there) which goes hand in hand with the description i gave earlier
It also exactly fits the description of a limited form of omnipresence between two coordinates, as the effect is there at any points

"X-axis is a nigh omnipresent attack between the muzzle and it's target, it uniformly penetrates anything between these coordinates simultaneously"

Would you agree to something like this, as the new description?
 
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Thermor said:
If the effect of getting shot just suddenly appears on target, wouldn't it be some sort causality manipulation?
Click to expand...
Not really, no. Lille isn't doing anything special with causality directly. The act of the attack "instantly spawning" is just the natural consequence of what the X-Axis is doing, penetrating everything between the muzzle and the target.
 
It doesn't need to be listed in the speed category at all. X-Axis is Spatial Manipulation & Durability Negation, as already listed on its profile.

It is using its ability, just applying Spatial Manipulation & Durability Negation, within a set range.

So it's just Varies via Spatial Manipulation/X-Axis.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
It doesn't need to be listed in the speed category at all. X-Axis is Spatial Manipulation & Durability Negation, as already listed on its profile.

It is using its ability, just applying Spatial Manipulation & Durability Negation, within a set range.

So it's just Varies via Spatial Manipulation/X-Axis.
Click to expand...
Okay, where is it described as spatial manipulation lmao.
It states it appears instantaneously between coordinates A and B, nothing spatial being insinuated.

The closest thing would be nigh omnipresence, and omnipresence isn't necessarily speed, as it exists at every point at the same time.
It works exactly the same.
 
Hellscream said:
Okay, where is it described as spatial manipulation lmao.
It states it appears instantaneously between coordinates A and B, nothing spatial being insinuated.

The closest thing would be nigh omnipresence, and omnipresence isn't necessarily speed, as it exists at every point at the same time.
It works exactly the same.
Click to expand...
It's literally on the profile as Spatial Manipulation.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
It doesn't need to be listed in the speed category at all. X-Axis is Spatial Manipulation & Durability Negation, as already listed on its profile.

It is using its ability, just applying Spatial Manipulation & Durability Negation, within a set range.

So it's just Varies via Spatial Manipulation/X-Axis.
Click to expand...
So there is no need to add any justification in this case.
 
ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
It would need to be added to the range section.

Well, you can create another CRT for that, that's not what this one is about.
Click to expand...
Why would a new CRT have to be made, when it can literally be solved in a single CRT, that is already addressing the abilty??

Bruh, there is no spatial manipulation happening, it's a simultaneous effect between two coordinates.
I literally copy pasted the analogy of omnipresence from the VSBW page itself, in order to establish correlation between the two.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
????

This CRT is revising how we index the X-Axis. It is absolutely warranted to discuss what the ability even is and how it should be indexed.
Click to expand...
This CRT is about whether the X-axis should have a certain speed rating and what it should be replaced with.

Whether or not it's spatial manipulation, durability negation, or causality manipulation, doesn't have any effect on that?
 
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