Removal of Infinite Attack Speed in Bleach

[Azertyhuuh]

I ask everyone to stay on topic here.

This thread will address the issue of Infinite Attack Speed in Bleach, where it will be removed.

First, this is the justification for Infinite Attack Speed:

• Infinite Attack Speed (With "The X-Axis" - Yhwach's Schrift doesn't release a projectile or an object of quantifiable speed, rather it's just a "penetrating force" which punches through "everything between the muzzle of Yhwach's weapon and his target".[96] Causing something like the "concept" of dodging to be incapable of interfering with the speed of Yhwach's "The X-Axis".[97] However this ability has a limit when it comes to its range, it doesn't/can't travel an infinite distance, rather it can only travel the known, effective range of Yhwach's Schrift, instantaneously)

As is clear from the justification, and furthermore, this is merely an ability and not speed; it is an ability. Yhwach cannot perform attacks with infinite speed. Rather, it is an ability possessed by Lille Barro and Yhwach, and this ability allows him to pierce anything between himself and the target while completely ignoring distance—meaning it does not actually traverse any distance at all, but instead completely ignores durability, and the attack is transmitted instantaneously to the opponent while bypassing distance itself.

If the attack here is already ignoring distance and the target is pierced between the muzzle and the opponent instantly without actually traversing any distance, then this is not speed, because it does not cover any distance at all. This is closer to teleportation. As explained in the speed page, teleportation can function exactly like infinite speed in practice; however, teleportation is still not considered infinite speed because it does not traverse distance at all. It is a process of moving from one point to another in zero time, but it still does not involve distance traversal and is therefore not speed. The same applies here.

What is even more strange is that this is purely an ability and has nothing to do with speed at all. It is an ability originally possessed by Lille Barro, and Yhwach cannot perform infinite-speed attacks using any other technique. So the situation becomes illogical: how can a specific ability suddenly grant infinite attack speed, while all his other attacks remain merely faster-than-light? In essence, it is simply a piercing ability that ignores distance entirely and directly penetrates the target instantaneously between the muzzle and the body.

Since this is purely an ability that ignores distance and penetrates the body instantaneously between the muzzle of the weapon and the target, it is not speed at all. Furthermore, you cannot claim that all of Yhwach’s attacks are of infinite speed, because the justification is based on an ability in the first place.

This appears to be a form of manipulation rather than speed at all.

---

Agree: @DontTalkDT, @Damage3245 @ActuallySpaceMan42
Disagree: @Dalesean027
Neutral:

 

[Dalesean027]

This appears to be a form of manipulation rather than speed at all.

Scans as proof that its manipulating something else?

 

[MrTayman616]

Scans as proof that its matter manip?

He didn't say matter manipulation, no? Ignore it if i missed it.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

He didn't say matter manipulation, no? Ignore it if i missed it.

Yes, that’s correct—I didn’t say that.

 

[Cipher72]

He didn't say matter manipulation, no? Ignore it if i missed it.

Dales wanted to say "Scans that prove that the speed is a matter of manipulation/manipulating something rather than pure attack speed" and it got changed to that....

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

That is even more strange is that this is purely an ability and has nothing to do with speed at all. It is an ability originally possessed by Lille Barro, and Yhwach cannot perform infinite-speed attacks using any other technique. So the situation becomes illogical: how can a specific ability suddenly grant infinite attack speed, while all his other attacks remain merely faster-than-light? In essence, it is simply a piercing ability that ignores distance entirely and directly penetrates the target instantaneously between the muzzle and the body.

Since this is purely an ability that ignores distance and penetrates the body instantaneously between the muzzle of the weapon and the target, it is not speed at all. Furthermore, you cannot claim that all of Yhwach’s attacks are of infinite speed, because the justification is based on an ability in the first place.

This logic is absolutely horrible because different abilities are 100% allowed to have drastically different speed ratings than another. There's nothing illogical about it and is just you asserting there's no logic because its restricted to this ability.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Count me as disagreeing.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I do disagree primarily due to the fact the ability kinda just fits infinite speed. It's portrayed as a "projectile" type of ability from a gun that completely skips the distance between the muzzle and the target instantly landing on the target without any time lag at all. This of course can be aim dodged but never dodged when the aim is dead on.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

All of Yhwach’s attacks aren't infinite speed.

It's just a copy and paste of Lille’s shrift for vs battles if people want to use Yhwach with all schrifts.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

This logic is absolutely horrible because different abilities are 100% allowed to have drastically different speed ratings than another. There's nothing illogical about it and is just you asserting there's no logic because its restricted to this ability.

The issue is not that it is an ability, but that this ability does not traverse any distance at all; it ignores distance entirely. The projectile simply pierces whatever is between the muzzle and the person instantaneously, and this is exactly the same mechanism as instantaneous movement. That is the core point, and I will not argue this topic much further.

Honestly, I do not see any evidence that the projectile actually travels a distance; rather, the evidence supports the opposite.

 

[Bahaha]

now I haven't watched Bleach but looking at the anime scenes of this guy, clearly his attacks have a speed and can be dodged (as shown in the video)

tho it does not make sense why there aren't more justifications for this guys ability other than a single manga panel for an controversial speed like infinite speed.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

now I haven't watched Bleach but looking at the anime scenes of this guy, clearly his attacks have a speed and can be dodged (as shown in the video)

tho it does not make sense why there aren't more justifications for this guys ability other than a single manga panel for an controversial speed like infinite speed.

It's literally a specific attack. Not every attack he does

 

[Azertyhuuh]

The main argument here is that this ability does not traverse any distance at all, and therefore it should not be assigned a speed value. These are attacks that are transmitted instantaneously, piercing the opponent directly from the muzzle of the gun to the target while completely ignoring distance. That is the core argument.

This is exactly like instantaneous movement, which can function similarly to infinite speed in practice, since it ignores distance. The same applies here: the shot itself ignores distance entirely, and therefore it cannot be considered speed.

 

[Bahaha]

It's literally a specific attack. Not every attack he does

what episode or fight scene does he perform the attack?

 

[Infinite9Luck]

As is clear from the justification, and furthermore, this is merely an ability and not speed; it is an ability. Yhwach cannot perform attacks with infinite speed. Rather, it is an ability possessed by Lille Barro and Yhwach, and this ability allows him to pierce anything between himself and the target while completely ignoring distance—meaning it does not actually traverse any distance at all, but instead completely ignores durability, and the attack is transmitted instantaneously to the opponent while bypassing distance itself.

Neither Yhwach's or Barro attacks scale to that, it is only specifically with that attack.

This is exactly like instantaneous movement, which can function similarly to infinite speed in practice, since it ignores distance. The same applies here: the shot itself ignores distance entirely, and therefore it cannot be considered speed.

Infinite speed by definition is instantaneous movement from finite distance A to B.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

what episode or fight scene does he perform the attack?

I dont remember exactly but it was lille vs oetsu. Oetsu was only able to dodge via aim dodging the whole time so there was no trajectory between him and the muzzle.

 

[Cipher72]

This is exactly like instantaneous movement, which can function similarly to infinite speed in practice, since it ignores distance. The same applies here: the shot itself ignores distance entirely, and therefore it cannot be considered speed.

Infinite Speed (Able to travel any finite distance in zero time, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time. Teleportation does not count. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below)

What are we doing gang

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

The main argument here is that this ability does not traverse any distance at all, and therefore it should not be assigned a speed value. These are attacks that are transmitted instantaneously, piercing the opponent directly from the muzzle of the gun to the target while completely ignoring distance. That is the core argument.

This is exactly like instantaneous movement, which can function similarly to infinite speed in practice, since it ignores distance. The same applies here: the shot itself ignores distance entirely, and therefore it cannot be considered speed.

I agree. There's nothing speed related about this technique. The formula for speed is distance/time. This ability doesn't travel, therefore it cannot be awarded speed. Instead it hits the enemy instantly when fired, ignoring distance no matter where the enemy is. It is more of a type of hax, the pellet instantaneously landing on the enemy as it is fired. I don't believe an infinite speed character would be able to dodge this, because at least for them, they can travel infinite distance at a time. The ability completely ignores the concept of distance entirely. Its more of a type spatial hax than speed imo

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

I agree. There's nothing speed related about this technique. The formula for speed is distance/time. This ability doesn't travel, therefore it cannot be awarded speed. Instead it hits the enemy instantly when fired, ignoring distance no matter where the enemy is. It is more of a type of hax, the pellet instantaneously landing on the enemy as it is fired. I don't believe an infinite speed character would be able to dodge this, because at least for them, they can travel infinite distance at a time. The ability completely ignores the concept of distance entirely. Its more of a type spatial hax than speed imo

It lands on the enemy as its fired. There's nothing really speed related in that. And I know, you can twist semantics to give this instantaneous movement or whatever, but the pellet isn't traveling. It lands on you as soon as its fired, and not because its infinitely fast but because the ability just does that.

 

[Mommyleona]

what episode or fight scene does he perform the attack?

Vs Oetsu (TYBW Episode 26)
and
Vs Shunsui he does too (TYBW Episode 35)

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

What are we doing gang

Lowkey seeing the visuals of the fight. It might just be teleporting attacks, and thats because it just lands on you.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

What are we doing gang

Definition explicitly states travel I relay. This ability doesn't "travel", nor does it move in zero time. It simply ignores distance by landing on the opponent immediately after fired. Its a very complex and bizarre technique I must say

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Snip

So.. infinite speed, got it..

 

[YmTheSuper]

Lowkey seeing the visuals of the fight. It might just be teleporting attacks, and thats because it just lands on you.

It doesn't teleport, it hits everything between the target and the muzzle instantly, basically infinite speed.

 

[Dalesean027]

Dales wanted to say "Scans that prove that the speed is a matter of manipulation/manipulating something rather than pure attack speed" and it got changed to that....

Oda who never thought of any of that

Nah brodie I was getting off of break and read the last part wrong, I wasn't implying anything else. Just had a mishap as I was moving around and asking for scans for the claims in the OP

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

It doesn't teleport, it hits everything between the target and the muzzle instantly, basically infinite speed.

Yeah... but it doesn't travel either- That doesn't make any sense, awarding speed for something that doesn't travel which is what Infinite speed is. Or what speed is in a general sense. Ignoring distance is not inherently speed related either. Im just trying to understand the logic behind how speed is granted to this

 

[Cipher72]

The formula for speed is distance/time. This ability doesn't travel, therefore it cannot be awarded speed. Instead it hits the enemy instantly when fired, ignoring distance no matter where the enemy is.

So it crosses finite distance in no time....
That's Infinite speed

Lowkey seeing the visuals of the fight. It might just be teleporting attacks, and thats because it just lands on you.

As explained it ignores distance, it's never explained as "teleportation"
I feel like people should ask the verse supporters before making these CRT's
I mean really, it's written in the Teleportation Page.

The ability to move instantaneously from one location to another without physically occupying the space in between.

It's even bolded to show the seperation between Infinite speed and Teleportation. Anyways for those that haven't watched/read Bleach.
X-axis penetrates (physically) anything between the muzzle and the target in no time, take the muzzle starting at coordinate (1,2,3) and the target is at (500,2,3) it physically travels that distance

 

[YmTheSuper]

Yeah... but it doesn't travel either- That doesn't make any sense, awarding speed for something that doesn't travel which is what Infinite speed is. Or what speed is in a general sense. Ignoring distance is not inherently speed related either. Im just trying to understand the logic behind how speed is granted to this

This explains how it works

What would you categorize it as instead of infinite speed?

 

[Cipher72]

Oda who never thought of any of that

Overestimated the reading comprehension of a powerscaler.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I agree. There's nothing speed related about this technique. The formula for speed is distance/time. This ability doesn't travel, therefore it cannot be awarded speed. Instead it hits the enemy instantly when fired, ignoring distance no matter where the enemy is. It is more of a type of hax, the pellet instantaneously landing on the enemy as it is fired. I don't believe an infinite speed character would be able to dodge this, because at least for them, they can travel infinite distance at a time. The ability completely ignores the concept of distance entirely. Its more of a type spatial hax than speed imo

Yes, exactly, and that is what I am trying to clarify to everyone here.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

The arguments presented by @Cipher72 are pretty damming for the CRT, so I disagree with the proposed change.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

So it crosses finite distance in no time....
That's Infinite speed

As explained it ignores distance, it's never explained as "teleportation"
I feel like people should ask the verse supporters before making these CRT's
I mean really, it's written in the Teleportation Page.

It's even bolded to show the seperation between Infinite speed and Teleportation. Anyways for those that haven't watched/read Bleach.
X-axis penetrates (physically) anything between the muzzle and the target in no time, take the muzzle starting at coordinate (1,2,3) and the target is at (500,2,3) it physically travels that distance

The text is clear: the shot ignores distance entirely, whereas infinite speed does not ignore distance but instead traverses an infinite distance in zero time. In this case, however, the shot ignores distance and does not traverse any distance at all, as the text explains. Rather, it reaches the opponent through a transfer-like effect. This is exactly like teleportation—the shots do not travel through distance at all, but instead hit the target directly without passing through any distance in the first place. This is an ability, not speed.

 

[Saqphire]

Oh man.

The OP got the right spirit but the arguments ain’t it at all so I’m gonna disagree with the thread but also agree with the thread (wait what?! let me explain!).

I think Lille’s X-Axis should be removed from having an infinite rating in the first place but not simply because ”Yhwach doesn’t have infinite attack speed!”, but rather because the statements justifying the rating not only doesn’t actually follow the definition of infinite speed in the first place, the statements themselves aren’t strong enough to assert any rating other than just a ”far higher” rating at best.

First, let’s look at how infinite speed is defined on VSBW so that we’re all up to speed (no pun intended)

Infinite Speed (Able to travel any finite distance in zero time, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time. Teleportation does not count.

As well as this caveat from the same page

Infinite speed characters are so fast, they move faster than time can flow at any period. They perceive every finite speed character as completely frozen and it takes 0 time to react to any finite speed object or travel finite speed distance. They can also perform and infinite number of actions or travel infinite distance within a finite amount of time. An infinite speed character's perception of time only flows when they allow it to flow.

Now let’s look at the two statements Lille said that currently justifies the rating on VSBW

There are no bullets. It uniformly penetrates anything in between the muzzle of the gun and the target.

My power is to pierce through anything and everything. With a power such as this, the very concept of ”dodging” has no meaning

Now the first statement doesn’t actually add anything to the rating, Lille is simply saying that X-Axis will go through anything and everything between the target, meaning it’s an attack potency amp and not a speed amp. He isn’t saying it goes through them instantly nor is the distance between them infinite (I shouldn’t have to prove why it isn’t from the scans, right?), so it doesn’t prove infinite speed as laid out on the site

The second statement is the big one, where the whole notion of dodging has no meaning to the ability. As impressive as that sounds, it doesn’t add anything either because

1. Lille’s explanation to Kyoraku is similar to the one he explained against S0, where the target will get hit no matter what’s between him and them, so trying to ”dodge” with anything like a blade or something

2. Distance doesn’t actually play a factor into infinite speed unless said distance is infinite. I assume the argument is that ”X-Axis simply has infinite range cuz the concept of distance is irrelevant to it”, to which that argument isn’t backed in the text

3. Why are we assuming Lille is speaking literally? He is a very arrogant person when it comes to his X-Axis because he has a 100% kill rate with it, so he personally would believe that dodging is just not something on the table, which is proven to be wrong when Kyoraku can clearly handle it within a timeframe. Lille himself proves that wrong when he goes into his bird form with attacks narratively superior to his base weapon yet they clearly don’t got infinite speed either as they have velocity with a distance.

4. As someone else pointed out, X-Axis has a timeframe and a clear velocity in the anime, and there’s nothing that says that Lille ”allows time to flow” as the caveat says, so yeah

now I haven't watched Bleach but looking at the anime scenes of this guy, clearly his attacks have a speed and can be dodged (as shown in the video)

tho it does not make sense why there aren't more justifications for this guys ability other than a single manga panel for an controversial speed like infinite speed.

Lastly, the VSBW page is currently mixing two sources of translations but since the VIZ version of the second page says roughly the same thing, this is not much of a major point but rather a site etiquette thing.

I think X-Axis should be Homing Attack or Damage Boost or similar, but it’s not something that has much to do with speed here

 

[YmTheSuper]

The text is clear: the shot ignores distance entirely, whereas infinite speed does not ignore distance but instead traverses an infinite distance in zero time. In this case, however, the shot ignores distance and does not traverse any distance at all, as the text explains. Rather, it reaches the opponent through a transfer-like effect. This is exactly like teleportation—the shots do not travel through distance at all, but instead hit the target directly without passing through any distance in the first place. This is an ability, not speed.

???

What you're replying to explicitly shows that it doesn't teleport.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Yeah, this isn't it man. Count me as disagreeing for the reasons people already brought up.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

This explains how it works

What would you categorize it as instead of infinite speed?

This burns through the neutrons in my brain just as this character with Precognition does. I get why it's "Likely", and in that case, it seems to be an application of hax and hax related aswell. Like Spatial Manipulation. Because;

I don't believe an infinite speed character would be able to dodge this, because at least for them, they can travel infinite distance at a time. The ability completely ignores the concept of distance entirely. Its more of a type spatial hax than speed

Let's say he goes up against someone with infinite speed. How would they dodge, perceive, or even react to something that doesn't travel yk. All infinite speed characters are rewarded their tier along the lines of traveling. The ability is very complex but i no longer have conventions with it,

 

[Apotheosis69]

What the actual f**k am I looking at here?

 

[Cipher72]

The text is clear: the shot ignores distance entirely, whereas infinite speed does not ignore distance but instead traverses an infinite distance in zero time. In this case, however, the shot ignores distance and does not traverse any distance at all, as the text explains. Rather, it reaches the opponent through a transfer-like effect. This is exactly like teleportation—the shots do not travel through distance at all, but instead hit the target directly without passing through any distance in the first place. This is an ability, not speed.

Read what I said again, translate the whole thing and read.

 

[Cipher72]

Distance doesn’t actually play a factor into infinite speed unless said distance is infinite. I assume the argument is that ”X-Axis simply has infinite range cuz the concept of distance is irrelevant to it”, to which that argument isn’t backed in the text

Huh ?
What are we doing gang ?

Infinite Speed (Able to travel any finite distance in zero time, or.....)

 

[Saqphire]

Huh ?
What are we doing gang ?

There’s nothing implying he fires it at zero time and the anime actually contradicts him doing so. I said that in my post already