Fatui, Vision and Delusion (Genshin Impact)

[Valxxroyz]

AE does not have to be a concept, as long as it is an abstraction such as ambition, thought, desire etc., it still meets the AE classification.

Its not about whether AE must be a “concept” or not. The problem is that a Vision’s ontology is still that of a concrete spiritual object, not an abstract existence itself. Being connected to ambitions, desires, or thoughts only means it has a metaphysical link to those things. That alone does not make the Vision ontologically abstract.

The Vision is still treated as an actual object in the verse: it can be held, stolen, sealed, and physically interacted with. So the evidence supports it being a soul-bound artifact, not an Abstract Existence Type-2.

 

[Furina003]

Its not about whether AE must be a “concept” or not. The problem is that a Vision’s ontology is still that of a concrete spiritual object, not an abstract existence itself. Being connected to ambitions, desires, or thoughts only means it has a metaphysical link to those things. That alone does not make the Vision ontologically abstract.

Vision and ambition are not only connected, but vision is the physical manifestation of the abstract thing itself, which is why vision cannot be destroyed or thrown away, because in fact as long as a person's ambition is still there, the vision will return to that person and cannot be destroyed.

The Vision is still treated as an actual object in the verse: it can be held, stolen, sealed, and physically interacted with. So the evidence supports it being a soul-bound artifact, not an Abstract Existence Type-2.

AE2 is still a physical form, so I don't think there's a problem with this.

 

[Voidnether]

Vision and ambition are not only connected, but vision is the physical manifestation of the abstract thing itself, which is why vision cannot be destroyed or thrown away, because in fact as long as a person's ambition is still there, the vision will return to that person and cannot be destroyed.

AE2 is still a physical form, so I don't think there's a problem with this.

AE2 for Vision doesn't even make sense because AE2 functions similarly to Immortality (Type 8), the only difference the thing they're reliant at is abstract other than material objects like Type 8 Immortality. The problem lies in the fact that all Vision characters don't regenerate/they can only be killed if Vision as an abstraction is also destroyed, the problem is that Vision is clearly just a character's willpower and you said it yourself that Vision is a physical manifestation of said abstract things (i.e Willpower). Vision or the characters wielding it would need evidence that they can regenerate indefinitely / can't be killed unless the abstraction is destroyed. I honestly only see Vision as a more potent Supernatural Willpower including Vision granting elemental powers. The whole notion of Vision being AE2 doesn't even make sense just because they're the physical form of an abstraction (someone's Willpower), and characters who wield Vision aren't definitely AE2 unless you're saying Ayato is AE2 due to his Vision which remotely makes zero sense anywhere else.

 

[Furina003]

AE2 for Vision doesn't even make sense because AE2 functions similarly to Immortality (Type 8), the only difference the thing they're reliant at is abstract other than material objects like Type 8 Immortality. The problem lies in the fact that all Vision characters don't regenerate/they can only be killed if Vision as an abstraction is also destroyed, the problem is that Vision is clearly just a character's willpower and you said it yourself that Vision is a physical manifestation of said abstract things (i.e Willpower). Vision or the characters wielding it would need evidence that they can regenerate indefinitely / can't be killed unless the abstraction is destroyed. I honestly only see Vision as a more potent Supernatural Willpower including Vision granting elemental powers. The whole notion of Vision being AE2 doesn't even make sense just because they're the physical form of an abstraction (someone's Willpower), and characters who wield Vision aren't definitely AE2 unless you're saying Ayato is AE2 due to his Vision which remotely makes zero sense anywhere else.

Honestly, this is the same thing that has been discussed before, and repeat the points that have been answered, wait for the staff, because I don't want this story to keep going round and round in places.

 

[MSahla]

Bump

 

[Furina003]

Bump

 

[Godernet]

Analitical Prediction
childe was able to figure out the Traveler’s objective within the labyrinth by analyzing the situation at the time

This seems like an intelligence feat rather than AP, which is more like precog

Supernatural Willpower and Empowerment
As explained before, Childe really likes fighting, so no matter how scary his enemy is, it will only make him more excited. this can also be proven by the incident in Fontaine, where Tartaglia managed to surpass his limits and hold back the Narwhal for a long period of time, ultimately collapsing from exhaustion at the end of the battle.

Idk if I'd call surpassing your limits "empowerment."

Surpassing your endurance is something even we are very much capable of doing, rather than empowerment, which is closer to an amp.

I wouldn't call fighting to the point of exhaustion and surpassing what you were previously able to do supernatural willpower either, Athletes do that quite frequently after all.

Weather Manipulation
can create fire tornadoes

That's just fire manipulation; weather manipulation would be the ability to manipulate the atmosphere to various effects (rain, snow, thunderstorms, hurricanes, etc.)

A Fire Tornado is just Fire Manip in the shape of a state of weather rather than actually being the state of weather if that makes sense.

Pressure Point
it is explained that the weapon is capable of attacking the weak points of its target

This doesn't sound like a pressure point to me.

Empactic Manipulation
Childe can change his personality, sometimes he looks friendly but a few moments later he becomes a cruel killer, this makes Tartaglia difficult to beat so that other people can misjudge him, he is even called a wolf in sheep's clothing, explains that he can influence someone's empathy towards him.

Would probably say this is limited empath manip if anything.

ARLECCHINO

Spoiler

Fear Manipulation
makes traveler so scared that his can't breathe when they meet her. Not only travelers, almost everyone will feel the same pressure when meeting arlecchino

Spoiler

Fear Manip can be a bit of a hard one to label at times, but it's generally an ability to induce fear supernaturally rather than just ppl being scared of you.

At least from what I'm seeing, I would say this is the ladder.

Abstract Existence Type 2
A Vision can be considered an Abstract Existence Type 2 because it is formed from and dependent on the concept of the user’s spirit, including their desires, ambitions, memories, soul, and persona. That is why a Vision cannot simply be discarded or destroyed by its user, since it is fundamentally tied to the very aspects that make up their existence and identity within Genshin Impact.

Conceptual Manipulation Type 3
Controlling a vision means controlling the spiritual concepts associated with the vision, such as wishes, persona, soul, and memory. These are particular concepts that support a person's mentality and identity.

Vision seems more like it's deeply tied to these concepts and drawing power from them rather than being the personified visage of these concepts in verse.

I'd personally disagree with AE and Conceptual Manip, but I'm open to hearing arguments from ppl more knowledgeable on the subject.

Age Manipulation, Life Manipulation and Death Manipulation
side from granting power, a Delusion also has negative effects on its user. A Delusion can damage the user’s vitality and drain their life force, causing rapid aging like teppei and potentially even death.

Agree with all except Death manip, which, much like fear hax, is hard to quantify (something that only "potentially" leads to death, definitely doesn't qualify as Death manip is the ability to induce it supernaturally rather than causing someone's death by affecting their life force.

Everything else is good to go

 

[MSahla]

So, I'll list the acceptable ones as of now

Accelerated Development and Martial Art
Tartaglia was originally just an ordinary child, but at the age of 14, he fell into the Abyss and received training from Skirk. Since then, Childe became obsessed with training and mastered many forms of combat and martial arts. It is also explained that Childe was an exceptionally talented child who was able to defeat many fully armed soldiers of Snezhnaya at a very young age. This was what attracted Pulcinella to him and led to his recruitment into the Fatui, where he eventually became one of the Eleven Fatui Harbingers.
Childe greatly enjoys battle. Aside from training, combat itself is one of the main aspects that continuously makes him stronger. It is even stated that Childe grows stronger every single day.

Durability Negation
The Fatui Harbinger has a special attack to take the Archon's Gnosis, which can penetrate the Archon's body without damaging the outside (shown here, here and here)
note : If accepted, this ability will be possessed by all Fatui Harbingers.

Acrobatics and Free Movement
Childe can do acrobatic moves (shown here and here), he can also slide on the water (here)

Statistics Amplification
When using the curse within her, she becomes stronger and faster. This was shown during her fight against Crucabena, where Arlecchino initially could not even be considered comparable to Crucabena and was easily overwhelmed. However, after using the curse within her, she became much stronger and faster, allowing her to defeat Crucabena with ease.

Energy Projection
shown here

Creation and Paralysis Inducment
create various constructions with bloodfire. Making the traveler, lyney and lynette unable to move, furthermore with the illusion that she did to the traveler

Weapon Control and Telekinesis
shown here and here

Temperature Manipulation
Signora's power is able to influence the area around her (here and here)

Homing Attack
releases fire butterflies that can chase targets

After Image Creation and Acrobatics
creates afterimages, able to jump and spin in the air when attacking

Pressure Point
it is explained that the weapon is capable of attacking the weak points of its target

Madness Manipulation Type 2, Empatic Manipulation, Memory Manipulation and Soul Manipulation
Losing vision will cause a person's psyche to be disturbed, losing their memory and identity, because vision is part of their soul, so losing vision means losing part of that soul.

Statistics Amplification
A Delusion can increase its user’s power to an extreme level.

However, unlike visions which do not have negative effects, delusions have negative effects on the user, namely
Age Manipulation, Life Manipulation and Death Manipulation
side from granting power, a Delusion also has negative effects on its user. A Delusion can damage the user’s vitality and drain their life force, causing rapid aging like teppei and potentially even death.
all fatui harbingers will gain resistance to this negative effect, because like childe, signora and arlecchino are users of delision but they are not affected by the negative effect

 

[Furina003]

I'd personally disagree with AE and Conceptual Manip, but I'm open to hearing arguments from ppl more knowledgeable on the subject.

I don't mind conceptual manipulation. But for AE2, it should be pretty clear that visions can be formed because of their ambition to reach the sky. This vision isn't just tied to, but also formed from that abstract thing. That's why visions can't be separated and destroyed as long as the person's ambition still exists.