My Little Pony should be just Low 1-C

[FinePoint]

Bluds explaining stuff I already explained 3 years ago and got accepted in another thread

It's funny how FinePoint agreed in the previous thread but seemingly isn't as convinced now, though.

People change, my understanding of these concepts and policies grow.

I'm not sure if it's enough for a solid rating since there is not definitive proof it goes on for infinitely many points, it's just very heavily implied

That's all I'm saying. I'm fine with a Possibly, but still nobody has actually proven that each person's dreams are their own hallway and this spirals forever. They kind of just assume that from these possibilities being their own universes.

 

[Robot972]

This "Dream Luna" therefore can explore this "Dream Infinite Hallway" as she does the normal one, and look within any "Dream Doorway" within, and since that is possible then it just goes on, forever. Luna exists within these futures, and her whole duty is to monitor dreams, that these "dream" ponies have, etc

That's not evidence that dream entities have hallways. That's just the real world ponies having hallways again

Besides, again, the entities in dreams do exist, and are tangible. Dreams themselves are whole physical spaces that ponies can just go to physically

They're made physical with magic, sure, but that doesn't deny my point that dream entities are only playing out the role they've been made to. I see no reason to believe they are sapient enough to possess their own mindscape much less a dream hallway which explicitly requires the ability to make choices, which they cannot. Hallway dreams play out ONE timeline. ONE specific set of choices. They do not branch away from that. In order to explore a different choice, you have to go to a different door.

Which frankly suggests the hallways within the main hallway are not actually infinite in the same way the book worlds are not actually full universes

Also I need to point out how exactly does this panel from Friends Forever prove the dream entities have a consciousness? They're not doing anything except following the dream's storyline

 

[PonePoster]

That's not evidence that dream entities have hallways. That's just the real world ponies having hallways again

They're made physical with magic, sure, but that doesn't deny my point that dream entities are only playing out the role they've been made to. I see no reason to believe they are sapient enough to possess their own mindscape much less a dream hallway which explicitly requires the ability to make choices, which they cannot. Hallway dreams play out ONE timeline. ONE specific set of choices. They do not branch away from that. In order to explore a different choice, you have to go to a different door.

Which frankly suggests the hallways within the main hallway are not actually infinite in the same way the book worlds are not actually full universes

Also I need to point out how exactly does this panel from Friends Forever prove the dream entities have a consciousness? They're not doing anything except following the dream's storyline

Oh, that panel's pretty good. Since Discord has never actually met the Oranges, do not know the fact they're related to that pony, or even cares to know of their existence,. That shows that these dream ponies had lives, and remember everything of their reality up to this point. It means that they have consciousness and actual minds of their own

Anyways, on the first point: like I said it's only a logical conclusion. Every doorway leads to an actual timeline that could have occurred, and these beings inside are capable of thought, and have sapience and entire histories. They would also have to be capable of dreaming because of that, since Luna exists within these worlds to moderate their dreams, and she herself has said there's always a Hallway, within presumably all beings who have minds and are capable of dreaming

 

[Phoenks]

People change, my understanding of these concepts and policies grow.

That's all I'm saying. I'm fine with a Possibly, but still nobody has actually proven that each person's dreams are their own hallway and this spirals forever. They kind of just assume that from these possibilities being their own universes.

So what has been accepted on this thread? A possibly or a full rating?

 

[Robot972]

Since Discord has never actually met the Oranges...

...or even cares to know of their existence...

1, you don't know he hasn't met them
2, by our own profiles, he can "see and hear anything ever said through time"
3, here's Discord summoning the Oranges

the fact they're related to that pony

Discord does not need to know they're related to Applejack (again, ignoring that he summons them as part of the extended apple family). Applebloom needs to know such. This possibly future isn't ONLY based off Discord's choices. It's also based off Fluttershy and the crusader's. It's as much part of their hallways as it is Discord's.

that shows that these dream ponies had lives and remember everything of their reality up to this point. It means that they have consciousness and actual minds of their own

This is something I think needs a proper discussion. There's no actual evidence these doors house ENTIRE timelines or universes.

They're dreams. Dreams are finite both in space and time (both of which are demonstrated in MLP). They're never actually stated to be literal full on timelines. All we're ever shown is that dreams are a specific cut segment of whatever this narrative could be like reading book or, ironically, having an actual real world dream. If dreams are literally entire timelines, there's no excuse for why ponies aren't experiencing the entire history of the universe every time they fall asleep


Also again I point to the question of whether or not you think character.ai is sapient

 

[PonePoster]

1, you don't know he hasn't met them
2, by our own profiles, he can "see and hear anything ever said through time"
3, here's Discord summoning the Oranges

That third scan was from the Transformers crossover, which is literally the very last thing to chronologically happen in the comics. Character wise he doesn't go out of his way to meet ponies unless he has to, and his ability to see and hear everything is something was agreed to be something he had to manually activate (for right now anyways)

Discord does not need to know they're related to Applejack (again, ignoring that he summons them as part of the extended apple family). Applebloom needs to know such. This possibly future isn't ONLY based off Discord's choices. It's also based off Fluttershy and the crusader's. It's as much part of their hallways as it is Discord's.

I think you misinterpret the way the Infinite Hallways work. It's not something shared between all beings, it's something specific to each being. Discord has his own, Luna has her own, etc. They are choices that the individual might make, and the consequences of infinite choices.

This is something I think needs a proper discussion. There's no actual evidence these doors house ENTIRE timelines or universes.

They're dreams. Dreams are finite both in space and time (both of which are demonstrated in MLP). They're never actually stated to be literal full on timelines. All we're ever shown is that dreams are a specific cut segment of whatever this narrative could be like reading book or, ironically, having an actual real world dream. If dreams are literally entire timelines, there's no excuse for why ponies aren't experiencing the entire history of the universe every time they fall asleep

Well they aren't experiencing the entire history of the universe because they're not asleep for that long lmao. An individual doorway is what a pony sees when they dream, the time they're asleep is the snippet they experience. They are their own timelines, since they are specifically said to be the futures that are created from every possible past, present, or future choice, some of these choices being ones that lead to a character exploring countless universes. No offense, but this discussion already happened and got accepted like 3 years ago

 

[MinatoSparkle]

by our own profiles, he can "see and hear anything ever said through time"

Why was bro not doing this in the show

 

[Robot972]

I think you misinterpret the way the Infinite Hallways work. It's not something shared between all beings, it's something specific to each being. Discord has his own, Luna has her own, etc. They are choices that the individual might make, and the consequences of infinite choices.

The hallways do not ignore other people's choices, otherwise causality would ******* collapse

The literal entire point of that segment is Discord's actions resulting in the Mane 6 CHOOSING to leave him. If they didn't have the ability to make choices, they would be unable to ******* leave him.

EVERY choice and their following consequences lead to the dreams showcased

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Why was bro not doing this in the show

He was, he mentioned being able to hear every word Celestia said even while turned to stone, was able to eavesdrop on the Mane 6 talking about him going after Tirek and Twi’s Princess identity crisis in Season 4, and heard them talking about Twi’s ascension to the throne and the final Summer Sun Celebration in Season 9 before teleporting in.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

He was, he mentioned being able to hear every word Celestia said even while turned to stone, was able to eavesdrop on the Mane 6 talking about him going after Tirek and Twi’s Princess identity crisis in Season 4, and heard them talking about Twi’s ascension to the throne and the final Summer Sun Celebration in Season 9 before teleporting in.

Ik about him being able to eavesdrop on things, was more so referring to him knowing things from the past (and possibly future? Although it does say anything that's BEEN said so maybe not)

 

[JJSliderman]

Might have been useful to stop himself being betrayed and thrown in the hyperbolic depower chamber. Twice.

 

[Robot972]

It still really doesn't matter whether or not the ability's used ever because Discord doesn't need to know about the Oranges in the first place. Applebloom does

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

So what has been accepted on this thread? A possibly or a full rating?

@FinePoint @Qawsedf234 @DarkDragonMedeus @Reiner04

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

IIRC, I think I said I was fine with a full rating.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Reiner04]

@FinePoint @Qawsedf234 @DarkDragonMedeus @Reiner04

I was also fine with a full rating if the following case applies to the verse:

I mean from what i understand from the situation is the following:

• There are infinite Universes like: 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.
• Each of them has further infimite Universes like lets say Universe 1 from above is: 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, etc
• Each of those Universes of Universe 1 contains further imfinite Universes like Universe 1.1 from above would have: 1.1.1, 1.1.2, 1.1.3, etc
• And so on.

Now lets list the base Universe and its expznsions:
U1: 1 → 1.1 → 1.1.1 → 1.1.1.1 → …
U2: 1 → 1.2 → 1.2.1 → 1.2.1.1 → …
U3: 2 → 2.1 → 2.1.1 → 2.1.1.1 → …
U4: 1 → 1.1 → 1.1.2 → 1.1.2.1 → …
....
adinfinitum.

Now take 1st step of U1: 1
Now take second step of U2: 2 (2 of 1.2)
Now take 3rd step of U3: 1 (1 of 2.1.1)
Adinfinitum.
We have (1, 2, 1, etc)
Now we just change those step numbers and get (2, 1, 2, etc)

Now listing it, we will get the Universe that differs from all the Universes at each particular step:
U*: 2 → 2.1 → 2.1.2 → etc

This new Universe differs from all the Universes listed before but still exist inside the multiverse OP described. So Cantor's diagonal theorem still seems applicable/to work unless i am missing smth.

But that would require each Universe to branch into infinite Universes, each of which again has infinite hallway, etc. Styrm said he will leave that part to supporters or smth but i could be misremembering.

 

[Qawsedf234]

@FinePoint @Qawsedf234 @DarkDragonMedeus @Reiner04

I said that if there are infinite hallways that go on forever it counts, but I don't remember how the cosmology works. If there's no hard confirmation, I guess it's okay, otherwise I think a solid rating is acceptable.

 

[FinePoint]

@FinePoint @Qawsedf234 @DarkDragonMedeus @Reiner04

I'm still only okay with a Possibly rating, since we receive no confirmation either way whether these hallways are shared, finite, or iterative.

 

[Phoenks]

So three 3 full ratings and 1 possibly agreement? Then that means a full rating is accepted, no?

 

[JJSliderman]

I think I’d still prefer the possibly but, yeah it seems full was accepted.

 

[FinePoint]

So three 3 full ratings and 1 possibly agreement? Then that means a full rating is accepted, no?

I don't know, it seems like the others are really hedging their answers with stuff like "if that were the case".

I would really like to see them take a stance on whether or not that is the case, if we can safely assume that these hallways must copy themselves endlessly and recursively for each individual part of them, or if there's other reasonable possibilities (such as it being one shared hallway).

And I'd like to point out we don't actually treat "Possibly" as a 'less valid' rating, it's sort of just how we display it when there's a range of logical possibilities. You can make matches that fully use Possibly ratings, for example.

 

[Reiner04]

I don't know, it seems like the others are really hedging their answers with stuff like "if that were the case".

I would really like to see them take a stance on whether or not that is the case, if we can safely assume that these hallways must copy themselves endlessly and recursively for each individual part of them, or if there's equally likely other possibilities (such as it being one shared hallway).

It could be either of them, though I’d say the former is more likely than the latter, imo. So, in the absence of that particular evidence, possibly should still work.

 

[Phoenks]

That's fine by me as well. It's what I originally concluded, anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Possibly seems like a more reliable rating here then.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump?

 

[Antvasima]

What has been accepted here so far?

 

[StrymULTRA]

What has been accepted here so far?

Basically, staff have generally agreed with the idea that infinite ponies dreaming each infinite ponies, and so on infinitely would cause an uncountable infinite chain of universes, or Low 1-C.

The main contention that has to be argued between the actual people who know the verse is whether those dream-ponies also generate universes or the chain stops there.

 

[Robot972]

I just don't see any evidence that they are conscious enough to have actual thoughts, much less any will to make the decisions required to create new timelines/dreams

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

So from what I understand.
1. There are infinite universes, each one containing a version of a pony. For the sake of math, let's assume there's 1 pony in each universe. That's already Infinity.
2. Each pony can dream of an infinite hallway of choice. That's an infinite hallway for each of the infinite ponies. That would be Infinity * Infinity.
3. Each door in the hallway has its own ponies that are sentient, thus also capable of dreaming.
4. This repeats the infinite hallway analogy ad-infinitum.

I think this should be enough to qualify. Makes sense to me.

 

[FinePoint]

So from what I understand.
1. There are infinite universes, each one containing a version of a pony. For the sake of math, let's assume there's 1 pony in each universe. That's already Infinity.
2. Each pony can dream of an infinite hallway of choice. That's an infinite hallway for each of the infinite ponies. That would be Infinity * Infinity.
3. Each door in the hallway has its own ponies that are sentient, thus also capable of dreaming.
4. This repeats the infinite hallway analogy ad-infinitum.

I think this should be enough to qualify. Makes sense to me.

Well, step 4 is technically optional.

Logically, it could all be the same hallway since the set of infinite versions of themselves never changes, or the copies could terminate arbitrarily.

 

[Ezaru]

Basically, staff have generally agreed with the idea that infinite ponies dreaming each infinite ponies, and so on infinitely would cause an uncountable infinite chain of universes, or Low 1-C.

The main contention that has to be argued between the actual people who know the verse is whether those dream-ponies also generate universes or the chain stops there.

If the dream ponies do not dream, then I dont see how there is an "and so on". It would just be infinite ponies dreaming infinite ponies, which is only infinity x infinity, not infinity ^ infinity, right?

Wouldn't there need to be an infinite amount of ponies in one universe for it to be infinity ^ infinity? Because then youd have infinity ponies, x infinity dream ponies, an infinite amount of times?

But I guess since 2^infinity is also 1-C, maybe finite ponies dreaming infinite ponies, multiplied infinity times ( the infinite multiverse ) works?

Which is more like "finite ponies each dreaming infinite ponies, infinite times"

I dont really understand the math tbh