Establishing the Concepts in A Novel Concept | Indexing a new LitRPG Novel

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Again. I'm fine with that first chapter figure. I just don't think it should be as low as 100k. As I said, I'd be content with 250k.

When I sent out the 100k average figure, I did so because I could conceive of a verse with a lot of active readers (perhaps less than 250,000), but still has a lot of people that actually keep reading. I would consider that more significant than a work that has 500,000 views on chapter one, but only 5,000 views on chapter fifty, and would be fine with allowing it. But this seems to be neither.

This one more than likely has that 250,000 chapter one views though with total view and average views trends compared to the first chapter though.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I feel like this is more of a systemic failing.

Are we not meant to delete a verse or at least deprecate it if it's become severely outdated and there's no support for it?

Okay but the key word there is "no supporters" there. Obviously if a thing is not being maintained by anyone then nuke it, but you're talking about something being of a low supporter count in general.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This one more than likely has that 250,000 qualifier though with total view and average views compared to the first chapter though.

You did mention asking the author about that. We are usually against that. That said, I do have a question that you might be able to help with.

I'm aware that some of these sites do list per chapter views (or, at least, did; I've been asked to look at more of these than I would like). Would you be able to offer comparisons in that vein to similar works where we do have the per chapter views available?

What I'd basically like to do is to establish the trend of views compared to first chapter views.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

This one more than likely has that 250,000 chapter one views though with total view and average views trends compared to the first chapter though.

I can ask someone what their first chapter is that has somewhat lesser but still significant numbers and we can compare with that if I get permission, no guarantee I get a response but I can try and they're more active in their community.

You did mention asking the author about that. We are usually against that. That said, I do have a question that you might be able to help with.

I'm aware that some of these sites do list per chapter views (or, at least, did; I've been asked to look at more of these than I would like). Would you be able to offer comparisons in that vein to similar works where we do have the per chapter views available?

What I'd basically like to do is to establish the trend of views compared to first chapter views.

I dont feel comfortable going to the one for this one considering their IRL predicaments so if I get permission for above I can go ahead.

I'm not sure if there are sites with public per chapter at least among big ones.

 

[Deonment]

Are we not meant to delete a verse or at least deprecate it if it's become severely outdated and there's no support for it?

We delete a verse if the pages themselves are of low quality, there are no supporters who are willing to work on it, and no scans or references present for anyone to try and verify what the pages themselves say, ala an A6 verse

There being a single supporter doesn't ensure that those things are going to become the case; hell, if a page is perfectly formatted with scans and references enough present for a layman to judge what is and isn't correct whenever the standards change, I'd say it would be perfectly fine with having no supporters, because it is of high enough quality and nothing there is completely unverifiable

But this seems to be neither.

I already pointed out how the novel is quantifiably more popular than other novels that have been published, and has only not been so due to the author's own desires, what more do you really want there?
If it's because it's been published (onto a site where the main viewership isn't going to follow), then what exactly makes the act of being published special as a "yeah, this is popular enough" compared to something that is objectively more popular with statistics we have access to

 

[FinePoint]

Okay but the key word there is "no supporters" there. Obviously if a thing is not being maintained by anyone then nuke it, but you're talking about something being of a low supporter count in general.

I'm talking about a scenario where it would enter already with almost no support and then have little-to-no prospect of regaining that support if those few people ever left.

When dealing with numbers this low, relative to the size of the internet and how much other content there is of greater popularity, it becomes statistically most likely that us hearing about it now is an anomaly, and that it probably won't ever gain the same interest again.

Even things with mainstream appeal end up with just a couple supporters carrying its entire weight on the wiki, but at the very least those hold the hope of regular fans converting into powerscalers, or if nothing else, leaves us with an external community to help offer an understanding of the verse.

I evaluate a lot of dead threads, and consequently a lot of dead verses. On a couple of these occasions, I was actually able to reach out to real people I knew for context about certain ideas and scenes, and it was genuinely helpful. That was only possible because these verses, though dead on our wiki, had mainstream appeal and so it wasn't hard to find fans.

I'm not saying any verse with only a couple supporters should be banned, I'm just saying that there's real problems with accepting a verse so obscure and trying to evaluate it honestly, especially after some time has passed or the original supporters move on.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I already pointed out how the novel is quantifiably more popular than other novels that have been published, and has only not been so due to the author's own desires, what more do you really want there?
If it's because it's been published (onto a site where the main viewership isn't going to follow), then what exactly makes the act of being published special as a "yeah, this is popular enough" compared to something that is objectively more popular with statistics we have access to

You're comparing statistics between an unpublished work and a published work on the same site. But the published work, if it is being sold as a book or what have you, then you aren't accounting for that.

Publishing is special because it indicates enough viability behind something to make it profitable to be published. It displays a degree of effort and relevance that we do not have to evaluate it so critically. I still sense this anger and frustration from you, but I urge you to understand this from our perspectives, even if you do not agree with us.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Publishing is not some insanely high bar. Self-publishing or low-involvement publishers for works that traditional publishers don't want to associate with has been a thing for ages. Getting something published is not and has never been a marker of quality or effort, just knowing the right channels and having money to throw around. This should be self-evident from how a verse like A Novel Concept isn't published not because publishers are rejecting it or whatever, but because the author has simply not expressed interest in it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

We're not trying for an insanely high bar. But publishing does dismiss some concerns.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

We're not trying for an insanely high bar. But publishing does dismiss some concerns.

I can ask someone what their first chapter is that has somewhat lesser but still significant numbers and we can compare with that if I get permission, no guarantee I get a response but I can try and they're more active in their community.


I dont feel comfortable going to the one for this one considering their IRL predicaments so if I get permission for above I can go ahead.

I'm not sure if there are sites with public per chapter at least among big ones.

I got reminded but didnt you allow this for infinite mana before it got deleted for unrelated reasons due to author including some questionable and on the nose terminology? It shouldn't bother the author or editor for the one I'm thinking of at all considering. I'm not asking for any authoritative statements on the story and they're generally more receptive to people asking stuff like this.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I got reminded but didnt you allow this for infinite mana before it got deleted for unrelated reasons due to author including some questionable and on the nose terminology? It shouldn't bother the author or editor for the one I'm thinking of at all considering. I'm not asking for any authoritative statements on the story and they're generally more receptive to people asking stuff like this.

I'm not sure what you mean, so could you elaborate? What did we allow?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I'm not sure what you mean, so could you elaborate? What did we allow?

Wait I misremembered again. It was Ant that allowed asking for first chapter views lol. There is precedent for it though.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

We're not trying for an insanely high bar. But publishing does dismiss some concerns.

Not really, you're acting like it's some infallible golden standard more important than viewership when it just categorically isn't. Some things get published, and some don't. And then books like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion get published because it's about money, not quality or effort as you've been arguing. Any sort of insane pseudoscience or racist nonsense can get published because it's about the return on investment, and anyone who actually understands the process will know that being published doesn't lend those any credibility. Extreme examples, sure, but it showcases the point.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not really, you're acting like it's some infallible golden standard more important than viewership when it just categorically isn't. Some things get published, and some don't. And then books like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion get published because it's about money, not quality or effort as you've said. Any sort of insane pseudoscience or racist nonsense can get published because it's about the return on investment, and anyone who actually understands the process will know that being published doesn't lend those any credibility. Extreme examples, sure, but it showcases the point.

Hl3. We've known each other for nearly a decade now, man. I wish you wouldn't do this to me.

I'm not acting like anything! I'm telling you why it is we have these standards. I'm telling you what view counts we'd want, and why we would accept official publication over that. I'm not a villain or boogeyman here to rain on your parade. I was asked to be here to answer questions and give positions, so I am. The wiki does not have to be a battle here, man.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Wait I misremembered again. It was Ant that allowed asking for first chapter views lol. There is precedent for it though.

Back on the subject. It's tentative. We have two reasons for our rules to not contact authors.

The first is that any question can be a leading question to skew statistics. This is obviously not a concern here.

The second is pestering authors is something we don't want to do. This would be a concern; we don't want to bother people.


That said, Ant did previously extend permission, so I suppose the precedent is there. I'll sign off on doing so here, if authors can see per chapter views.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Hl3. We've known each other for nearly a decade now, man. I wish you wouldn't do try this on me.

I'm not acting like anything! I'm telling you why it is we have these standards. I'm telling you what view counts we'd want, and why we would accept official publication over that. I'm not a villain or boogeyman here to rain on your parade. I was asked to be here to answer questions and give positions, so I am. The wiki does not have to be a battle here, man.

You're really not helping your case by trying to keep this facade of neutrality when you have not only been acting incredibly dismissive and elitist throughout this entire thread, but have invented standards out of nothing such as the "cultural relevance" tangent. You verifiably do not understand the topic at hand and yet you present yourself as someone able to make authoritative statements. If you said things like "6000 average viewers is nothing" to any author on RR, even very notable ones like Zogarth or OstensibleMammal, they would look at you like you just said the sun was green.

If you are unable to approach this topic in an honest or even-handed manner then I am unsure what there is to be gained by engaging with you. You don't magically become a neutral, unbiased party by simply saying you are independent of your actions and comments.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Alright.

If you continue to behave toxically, I will put this on the RVRT.

I don't care about this verse or genre. I am telling you the wiki's standings. We have always accepted officially published things. We have required different data on relevance from non-published works for years. This thread will not change that nor will it earn an exception from these policies. If your interest is in institutional change, make an appropriate thread. You have been here for many years and know how to do this; instead, you're Karening out at me.

MGQscaler has been constructive on this thread. You have been having a childish hissy fit. You need to act maturely or leave the thread. I have no interest in entertaining your behavior further if you will not listen to reason.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Back on the subject. It's tentative. We have two reasons for our rules to not contact authors.

The first is that any question can be a leading question to skew statistics. This is obviously not a concern here.

The second is pestering authors is something we don't want to do. This would be a concern; we don't want to bother people.


That said, Ant did previously extend permission, so I suppose the precedent is there. I'll sign off on doing so here, if authors can see per chapter views.

Alright just did in a no pressure/polite manner. Will get back to here.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Probably not getting an answer btw unless the editor whos probably still asleep decides to answer. I didn't ping the editor or author of the other novel but I'm 99% sure the author saw my message in general.

Sucks because with what I've heard from other people familiar with royalroad and what I know, the one in OP is probably guaranteed to have the 250k mark.

 

[Rikimarox2]

The problem is that, I don't think there's a single novel out there that has an actual 100-250k average views besides those with really low chapters. Hell, even The Primal Hunter is only at around 45k~ views (likely much higher but still lower than 100k avg views even prior to stub, as I haven't been able to see a single one instance on wayback machine that has 100k avg views), and that novel is a GIANT. I'm talking 7-figure yearly type of giant, and yet, if we go by the standards, that novel would not have been accepted if it were not for the fact it became published (Even though it was still making huge amount of money even prior to being published). The thing I'm really weirded out about is if we go by the whole "Even 100k is really low", then what you really want are stories that are pretty much an international success (That make money close to a normal movie would), and I just find that weird for a website that is, in essence, toy-fighting.

Not to mention, novels on RoyalRoad (and this one, by extension) are huge. Hell, this one alone has around 4k pages worth of content, and so to require it to have over 100k average views, when it really can't simply due to how the average views are calculate (total views/chapters), and the fact that chapters are very long (15-20 minutes for a single chapter), just makes it likely the beginning chapters have much more views than the earlier ones.

I know our standards are really just a case-by-case basis and don't really have an actual standard set in stone to see, but does Revenue not matter, or is it stated anywhere that they need to make around x amount of money monthly/yearly?

Additionally, I know there is already a Staff-Thread about notability requirements, but that haven't gone anywhere iirc. If so, is it still allowed to make another one for Webnovels specifically? Because I'd really appreciate at least some set-in-stone standards for webnovel on the Wiki itself.

Sorry if my tone seems a bit off, that is not my intention. But, it is just a bit depressing that an entire genre/site at this rate would just not be allowed on this site (said genre/site getting 55M monthly viewers and being the third biggest western webnovel site), aside from a few published ones.

That said, I'm not sure if this'll change anything, but after checking the threads on RoyalRoad, I noticed that there were a few posts talking about First Chapter views to Followers ratio. From what I gathered, the consistent percentage was 7-10% of first chapter views to followers. So, if we use 10%, and given the follower count of A Novel Concept being 14,643, we can kind of deduce/estimate the first chapter views, which'd be around 140k views. Of course, it is likely to be much higher since it is a long and kind of old novel with over 400+ chapters.

I can give the sources (which are just royalroad threads). I'm not sure if this'll change anything, but eh.

 

[FinePoint]

Not really, you're acting like it's some infallible golden standard more important than viewership when it just categorically isn't. Some things get published, and some don't. And then books like The Protocols of the Elders of Zion get published because it's about money, not quality or effort as you've been arguing. Any sort of insane pseudoscience or racist nonsense can get published because it's about the return on investment, and anyone who actually understands the process will know that being published doesn't lend those any credibility. Extreme examples, sure, but it showcases the point.

I don't think being published means it's high-quality or high-effort, but I do think it sort of necessitates it become well-known, provided the publisher does their job at all, which is to get it in front of as many eyes as possible.

And if it's a reputable publisher, they will do that, even if the product sucks. As it's their entire business model, and they're successful at it, we can safely assume they'll cause it to be at least heard of by some wide group of people, and I think at its core that is why we might grant it an exception even if we can't track those metrics exactly. If nothing else it guarantees it'll show up on their website and Wikipedia alongside other successful publishes.

Are there existing Western web novels with corporate publishers we can look at?

 

[Deonment]

and so to require it to have over 100k average views, when it really can't simply due to how the average views are calculate (total views/chapters), and the fact that chapters are very long (15-20 minutes for a single chapter), just makes it likely the beginning chapters have much more views than the earlier ones.

To add onto this, it is quite literally mathematically unfeasible for a webnovel to actually reach the 100k benchmark without being something extremely short
At ten chapters, you need over a million views to pass; at a hundred chapters, you need 10 million views to pass; at a thousand chapters, you need one hundred million views to pass.
That is absurd to say the very least, seeing as most of the popularity of a novel is going to come in an initial burst somewhere in its development, and then readers will slowly, and additively, I might add, add to the viewcount afterwards, meanwhile, for every chapter added, the total amount of views needed is multiplied by a factor.
That we are requiring an author/community somehow outpace the diminishing returns of a multiplicative factor with the even worse diminishing returns of addition, or if we want to be more accurate, the successor function.
No matter how you want to look at it, that's ******

And if it's a reputable publisher, they will do that, even if the product sucks. As it's their entire business model, and they're successful at it, we can safely assume they'll cause it to be at least heard of by some wide group of people, and I think at its core that is why we might grant it an exception even if we can't track those metrics exactly. If nothing else it guarantees it'll show up on their website and Wikipedia alongside other successful publishes.

Are there existing Western web novels with corporate publishers we can look at?

I already brought it up, Royal Road has Amazon, which will directly offer a contract to and publish any novel with a certain level of popularity, of which A Novel Concept is one that would have gotten it already, but the author themselves decided against such for personal reasons (as Riki said)

Webnovel is also a corporate publisher in addition to the main usage of its site, providing (terrible, but that isn't fully part of the discussion rn) contracts, pay, and advertisements (kinda) to users to post their work on its site/app and reach a certain level of popularity

 

[Rikimarox2]

Bump! I kinda want this thread to finish, and additionally, the author has actually answered me about the first chapter views, and it is almost 200k views (193k to be exact). I wonder if that'll change anything?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Bump! I kinda want this thread to finish, and additionally, the author has actually answered me about the first chapter views, and it is almost 200k views (193k to be exact). I wonder if that'll change anything?

hm not quite what I was thinking it would be, but still marginally more than the average views. Too bad the goalpost was being shifted from like 100k to 250k to idk maybe 500k despite those being absurd numbers for this stuff

 

[Rikimarox2]

Bump

 

[Rikimarox2]

Bump again. I'd really appreciate it if this thread could come to an end. I frankly think 190k views, especially for novels where chapters span over 15 pages each, is more than enough.

Apparently, we're pretty lenient with long-form YouTube videos according to Agnaa, where if the video is over 20 mins or smth, it is okay if it is 250k views. I think for novels this long, this should be enough.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Bump

 

[Rikimarox2]

Bump

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

What were the conclusions on notability here?

 

[Rikimarox2]

What were the conclusions on notability here?

IIRC, for novels specifically:

1. Average views for a novel should be around 100k to I think 200k. By average views, it means taking the total views of a novel, and dividing it by the number of chapters. So, a novel with 10M views and 300 chapters would have around 33k views, aka not qualifying. That's how Webnovel.com, Qidian, and Royalroad calculate this stuff.
2. The first chapter should have at least 250k views (I think) to 500k views (The goalpost is shifting, Idk).
3. One way to circumvent this is if they were published (and by that I mean mostly Amazon/Kindle. Stuff like Webnovel and Qidian stuff do not count iirc).

This novel has around 33k avg views, ~200k views for the first chapter, and makes around I think 6k dollars a month. But, it is not notable enough, according to the standards.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

IIRC, for novels specifically:

1. Average views for a novel should be around 100k to I think 200k. By average views, it means taking the total views of a novel, and dividing it by the number of chapters. So, a novel with 10M views and 300 chapters would have around 33k views, aka not qualifying. That's how Webnovel.com, Qidian, and Royalroad calculate this stuff.
2. The first chapter should have at least 250k views (I think) to 500k views (The goalpost is shifting, Idk).
3. One way to circumvent this is if they were published (and by that I mean mostly Amazon/Kindle. Stuff like Webnovel and Qidian stuff do not count iirc).

This novel has around 33k avg views, ~200k views for the first chapter, and makes around I think 6k dollars a month. But, it is not notable enough, according to the standards.

Also note that as web novels are longform typically, getting that average becomes literally impossible as a series goes on and becomes longer and longer

Webnovel and Qidian stuff when contracted require a paywall per chapter so the barrier of entry is way higher (its a very real phenomena where the great majority of people get instantly filtered as soon as theres a paywall involved). So by all means it should mean something and not adhere to the usual requirements that are usually wanted for free web novels. Although this one in OP is not one of those.

 

[FinePoint]

One way to circumvent this is if they were published (and by that I mean mostly Amazon/Kindle. Stuff like Webnovel and Qidian stuff do not count iirc).

Well I don't think we should consider Amazon. It's kind of the Wild West there, and filled to the brim with AI slop.

I was thinking more of a traditional publisher, not just any online platform.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Well I don't think we should consider Amazon. It's kind of the Wild West there, and filled to the brim with AI slop.

I was thinking more of a traditional publisher, not just any online platform.

Huh?

I don't think that's reason enough to not consider it? As long as it has some publisher name, it should be enough imo (Like many RoyalRoad novels). Care to give examples on what you consider to be "enough" to be notable enough?

I think I'm just misinterpreting you ngl, because I assume you mean as long as it isn't some self-published whatever, and has some kind of deal with it, it is enough. Yes?

Edit: Also, what do you think about the whole 200k views for the first chapter? Is that enough, or nah, in your opinion?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Huh?

I don't think that's reason enough to not consider it? As long as it has some publisher name, it should be enough imo (Like many RoyalRoad novels). Care to give examples on what you consider to be "enough" to be notable enough?

I think I'm just misinterpreting you ngl, because I assume you mean as long as it isn't some self-published whatever, and has some kind of deal with it, it is enough. Yes?

It’s pretty much just anything with a publisher house name attached to it. That’s what traditionally published is where a publisher puts their name on a work and handles the book in certain ways like advertising or paying for an audiobook in exchange for a cut of the profits.

 

[FinePoint]

It’s pretty much just anything with a publisher house name attached to it. That’s what traditionally published is where a publisher puts their name on a work and handles the book in certain ways like advertising or paying for an audiobook in exchange for a cut of the profits.

Correct. Maybe I misinterpreted something, but I thought they were implying it was okay so long as it was on Amazon, but Amazon isn't exactly picky about what books they feature.

 

[God_of_perversion]

I agree with everything on the profile with the exception of info2,unless the series explains more about what "Aether coding" is
About the popularity of the novel:i really don't get why a novel with 33k thousand monthly readers is low specially when we consider that each chapter is veryyyy long (i've read some),the fact that 200k people have also read the first chapter is also insanely high since thats like 50% more than my city's population