Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,606
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We got Powerplex at MFTL+ lol
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Invincible Season 4 General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Excellence616
- Start date
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tbh I don't know where he would scale either. I'm thinking just putting him alongside Shapesmith in speed, can he even be argued to get faster the more energy he gets ? He's only fought superheroes after absorbing a good amount.
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I can agree with how we don't really have a way to justify the Game's Scaling unless we wanna argue this is an alternate timeline where the Invincible War never happened and we're in Season 4. I have reasons to believe it is just an alternate timeline that is currently in like early Season 4 late season 3.
Also I said below very clearly that if we're actually making profiles for Invincible VS Characters, we better make one for Ella Mental since not only does she have more feats but also has some raw feats
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Excluding the weaker less prominent characters Yeah, you're right. But you wanna know why I mentioned her speed here?
Atom Eve's Profile currently lists as MFTL+ because of her displays during her fight against Conquest so if someone is talking about downgrading Atom Eve to exclude the Conquest fight then it would also affect her Speed Rating since the only reason we currently have listed is fighting Conquest.
Atom Eve's Profile literally says "Massively FTL+ combat and reaction speed (Could restrain Conquest before he reached her)" so saying she doesn't scale to Conquest in any way is a massive speed downgrade since she'll be back to Relativistic rating
Atom Eve did keep Conquest due to her hax advantage, since Earth is like the only place where Conquest can encounter a "Witch". Eve literally had was knocking him back at times, his expression was pretty much shocked since she was actually putting up a good fight for him with her abilities
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She was never rated Relativistic, her profile was posted as is. There's zero reason she should have that many keys.
Either way, I have this speed CRT trying to find some solution, you can chime in if you want.
Density Manipulation is what shocked him, comparatively he shrugged off all her constructs. Hell, evil Invincibles weaker than Mark could easily break them.
Hellbeast
He/Him- 5,510
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Lmao the Mark’s are Season 1 level?! Classic Man D cannot scale
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,606
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One of them did lose to Oliver sooo
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That reminded me. TV Allen from S3 onwards has been portrayed as roughly on par with Omni-Man, with him needing external help to do some of his most iconic comic feats. So Immortal getting schooled by Allen is yet another point to him not being Omni-Man level lol, unless S5 surprises us
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Her Profile currently states her reasoning for Relativistic Speed as being comparable to Season 1 Invincible and Season 1 Mark is Relativistic because he traveled to the Moon in a few seconds which was accepted at 0.343360c (Relativistic) value.
Also about her current keys, I don't see much an issue with them. The first key is from the Atom Eve Special when she was a Kid and not as skilled or powerful as her older self, the second key is Season 1-2 Eve who is going off her showcases from those Seasons and the last key is from Season 3 where she fights Conquest and she uses her Limitless Form to significantly injure Conquest, which leads to her currently scaling to Conquest to some degree.
This is the first time I've heard someone call the Invincible Variants as "Evil Invincibles"...
But anyways to the point,
There are scenes in the fight [You're talking only about what happened on 0:36 in this clip] where he's shocked why he stopped in air, after the barriers Eve decides to go on the full offensive and starts attacking him head on, he makes a very shocked expression [You can see his face at 1:41 for a few frames where he looks utterly surprised after Eve's offensive begins]. Her constructs do manage to make a reaction out him and do push him back somewhat, not saying she scales to him completely but still, even pushing him back and getting a reaction like that should be enough to do something for her scaling
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Admittedly giving her a TV special and Main Series keys would be fine, but there's simply no grounds to say she suddenly got exponentially stronger after S2
I mean, Oliver does the same and we all agree that does nothing for his
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I disagree, think there's enough of a difference for at least 3 keys
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,606
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Any in-verse mechanic that explains how she would've gotten stronger?
Hellbeast
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The simplest option is for Immortal to be “Mark level, at most Omni-Man level” solely because we cover our bases in mentioning he can compete
ShionAH
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Grand Regent vs Dick Master (Invincible vs Hazbin Hotel)
SBA, Speed equalized, Adam is Low 5-B. Fight takes place in Hell. GrandRegent: First Man: Inconclusive:
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ShionAH
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Perhaps at the beginning but he conceded to being weaker by the later half.
Him upscaling Mauler's nukes is about the best baseline he has
ShionAH
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Tbh its hard to say, you could say Immortal just didn't want to start an argument Idk how to feel about that statement
Also he can be weaker but scale.
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The meaning of that scene can't be any more straightforward
ShionAH
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The fact that this scene takes place in season 2 does not mean this Mark was season 2 Mark level. Alternate timelines have differing strengths for their Marks as we all already know. This scene in particular seems to take place quite a bit in the future, likely even beyond season 2 chronologically yet Mark is still relative to or inferior to Immortal. The whole timeline is just Mark joining his dad instead of fighting him so there's also no incentive for him to train and get stronger. The best you can really do is say he is minimum season 1 Mark level which does nothing for overall scaling.
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Why are we separating Mark's keys by seasons again? Iirc the only notable change in strength within the show so far is Post-Training via Cecil.
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Because of statements and scaling that only makes sense with split keys. Mark was stated to have gotten stronger at the beginning of season 2 and that he had surpassed Immortal which doesn't make sense given season 1 Marks performance against Omni man. Doubly so with his performance against full blooded viltrumites. Its just more consistent and results in less inconsistencies to scale him by season as opposed to only when he trained with Cecil.
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I get why the keys are currently separated by Season 1 and Season 2 since it makes the profile easier to organize by time period but I think that method also contributes to the inconsistency issue.
The main problem is that Mark's showings in Invincible are extremely inconsistent when taken at face value. If we only separate the keys by season, then we end up treating some lower showings as if they represent his full power, even though a major part of Mark's character is that he often holds back by avoiding killing and does not always fight with full intent. For example, you bring up Season 1 Mark's performance against Omni-Man as a reason to keep him lower, but Immortal did not stand much of a chance against Omni-Man either. On top of that Invincible showings can swing wildly so relying only on cherrypicked feats can make the scaling messy.
I think a cleaner solution would be to structure the keys more around Mark's mindset and training rather than strictly Season 1 vs Season 2. For his earlier pre-training key, you could list him as something like:
"7-A normally, At least High 6-A when serious"
The lower end would cover his regular early showings, while the higher end would account for statements and serious combat showings, such as him being stated to be above Immortal and later holding his own against Thula. This would also fit with the fact that Mark's lower performances are often affected by him pulling his punches or not fighting to kill.
Then his Post-Training key can remain clearly above that due to the stated improvement such as him being 138% stronger and whatever percentage faster. That key could be:
"At least High 6-A"
This way the profile does not have to pretend every Season 1 low showing represents Mark at full seriousness while also not randomly giving every early showing the same rating and It separates his normal held back performance from his serious combat potential then gives Post-Training Mark a clear upgrade after his measurable improvement.
That's way better now right?
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Get your pseudo-varies outta here. We don't rank characters for holding back lmfao
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It used to be Pre-Thraxa fight/Post-Thraxa fight, which is not better at all as a CRT some time ago pointed out it makes it look like he gained a sudden power-up in that fight. That same CRT however used this same logic to remove this distinction and say that Mark has actually always been near Omni-Man's strength, which the whole thread picked up would make the entire verse near Omni-Man level lol, so yeah that didn't go through
In fact, I can clearly remember this being brought up once but shot down on the spot. It's pure headcanon to say he can hold back his durability to that insane degree
Also, everything FuriousFieryFist said.
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You sure? It would really help you guys in terms of consistency and it is not too shabby either, a character's regular showings being weaker than his showings when he is serious. It makes it even better too considering that Season 1 Mark normally is not displayed to be on Immortal's level, but during the Thraxa fight when he fights seriously for the first time he can make that difference. So applying that statement to when he actually becomes strong enough to use it makes sense, no?
Yeah that is definitely an issue for sure, but what I am proposing is a little better because at full strength Mark when he is serious should be more powerful than Immortal and that is about it. Y'all should be a little more strict with feat restrictions and outliers when it comes to scaling because taking a punch from someone should not always mean scaling to them, at least not all the time. Or in cases of outright inconsistencies where the clear set narrative does not make any sense, just cut those feats off.
I do not want to go off too much here, but I am going to steal some words from a wise person I had a discussion with. Part of why Pochita made that choice in the ending is because Denji having "the crappiest but best kind of brain" meant that no matter how much worse Denji's life would get by being tied to Chainsaw Man, he would still keep going and keep suffering through worse and worse tragedies. So while Pochita might have had his dream of a hug granted, Denji would never have the normal life and human connections he always wanted. And with Denji letting go of that chainsaw within that new reality to save Asa from a fate of guilt, doing it in his own name instead of having his identity as Chainsaw Man take the credit, mwa, I love it.
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Gunshy. We do not make ratings for holding back period(It started with comics and got nuked from them for characters who don't have varies mechanisms). And if they were in existence, mark would not be 7-A, you're looking at closer to 9-B to 8-C for the baseline.
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I've called out flawed stats every time I caught one. I've done about 3 verse-wide revisions (with more in store) specifically about that. A whole bunch of characters got downgraded and more will be in the future, TV Rex' explosives used to be Tier 6 before that. So I like to think I'm pretty thorough
Hellbeast
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Season 1 Mark tho
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The whole idea on why we have a different key for Season 3 is because she managed to restrain and push back Conquest [Or at least that is what it says] which is why she has a different key for this one. Tbh the main issue is that we then have to argue over whether or not Atom Eve should even scale remotely to Conquest due to how she reacted to Conquest and froze him basically and then managed to fight Conquest briefly
Oliver technically landed one surprise attack while Eve landed multiple blows and could move her constructs fast enough to hit him on numerous occasions, like she did lose but she also fought much better than Oliver and arguably on a close level with how Invincible in terms of how well they did against Conquest
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Nothing really implies that this Mark Variant was actually as strong as Season 2 Mark, if anything at most we can say he was anywhere between Season 1-2 Mark levels.
I'll use this video for reference of the fight since it's higher quality and also uploaded by Prime
Anyways back to the point,
We've seen other variants already lose and die to far weaker characters [i.e. Rex Splode killing a Variant for instance] so just because he's an Invincible Variant that appears in Season 2 doesn't mean he is Season 2 level, if anything judging by his performance he's weaker since we already know and accept the fact that Invincible is stronger than The Immortal during Season 2.
On the other hand, this Immortal was going evenly with this Invincible and would've won if Omni-Man didn't intervene to save Invincible. So The Immortal has another reason to upscale Season 1 Invincible, maybe we could add the fight to his Profile to add more evidence to his superiority over Season 1 Invincible since this Invincible is likely not as weak as Season 1 but has no reason to train and grow to Season 2 levels of power.
This fight also doesn't matter much for The Immortal's Page since he is already at Multi-Continental and Season 2 Invincible is placed at Multi-Continental because Invincible is stated to be stronger [and faster] than The Immortal and that statement isn't contended by The Immortal so it should be true regardless.
In short,
The Immortal is not on the same level as Season 2 Invincible, no reason to believe this as true. If anything, this fight proves that The Immortal is above Season 1 Invincible [not by long shot but some close relativity margin] instead or at worst relative to Season 1 Invincible.
Tapkmiz
He/Him- 145
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I'm pretty sure there are many more cases of Viltrumite-level characters reacting to their flight speed (even specifically in space) for the soeed scaling to just go. There is a baby in the bathwater, for the same reason we can't just downgrade the whole verse's AP based off wonky scaling between characters beyond vague hierarchies of strength.
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Nuke what exactly? there's many instances and statements of Viltrumites and other characters like allen reacting to eachothers flight to where the scaling stays the same. Stop glazing
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I saw that formatting L.
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apparently mark can move the moon by s3 at least
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Omni-man could make the moon go bye bye apparently
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We are well aware of the Q&A statements bro
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If that's the case then I guess I should assume people didn't take well to them
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