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Cthulhu Mythos Revision - The Big One
- Thread starter TomTaylorTheMessiah
- Start date
Okstrike
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Okstrike
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Low Multiversal BUMP
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Bump so powerful that it can summon even Yoggy himself
Okstrike
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That would technically still be below average human level considering some geezer casually summoned Yog-Sothoth just to impregnate his daughter. And before you ask, no, this isn’t even close to the weirdest thing Lovecraft wrote
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bidibibodibiBUMP x2
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Really? Well, Lovecraft's dreams themselves were weird enough for him to not even forget the... so what else to expect?
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Bump
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This thread Is dead bro
Okstrike
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Almost the entire 3rd & 4th page are BUMPs and noncontributory comments. Threads been dead for a while
Okstrike
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Anyways, since this thread won't be moving anytime soon, i think i'll take the opportunity to clarify what i'm saying here once more since the opposition somehow managed misunderstand what i was saying twice
Shin thinks i'm treating “three-dimensional phase” as a shared structural property of both the Waking and Dreaming world under both interpretations, buts that’s literally what the metaphorical reading rejects
Under a literal reading, yes, both the world of man and the gods get collapsed into the same dimensional framework, which makes the contradiction I pointed out
But under the metaphorical reading, “three-dimensional phase” is not describing the intrinsic structure of the waking and dreaming worlds, but rather the intrinsic structure of derivativity found within each Gate; as each individual gate is a "wholeness" that treats the prior wholeness (or gate in this context) as an infinitesimal slice of itself, all culminating with the Ultimate Gate, which represents the archetypal infinity from this statement as it's the final gate in the hierarchy, hence why i said it's pseudo-dimensional and explained with the analogy of dimensions; it's so similar to our limited notation of dimensionality that Archetype explains it as such so that Carter can aprhend it better. So there’s no requirement that both realms be the same level of transcendence since dimensionality in the metaphorical reading has nothing to do with that
In other words, Shins conclusion only works because they extended dimensionality to the waking and dreaming world themselves when my argument explicitly restricts that to the Gates
Never mind the fact that the literal reading of it is not only contradictory internally, but also creates many, many, many, many other contradictions with both this story and other stories, so the gates being dimensional falls victim to a reductio ad absurdum
Okstrike
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After rereading Through the Gates, i'm not as ambiguous on this, I think Yog-Sothoth would get straight out meta-meta qualitative superiority due to a description in from Chandraputra/Carter on the Ultimate Abyss:
When paired with a holistic understanding of the story (see the cosmology and rebunk blog), essentially what this is saying is that the Outer Extension and Gates are still connected, in some way, to the Earth (which in this context would refer to the Waking World and possibly the Dreamlands depending on how you interpret it) due to the fact that they're an "extension" of "earth" in a sort of "hierarchy" of "wholeness," culminating in the Ultimate Gate, which is the final wholeness in this hierarchy, hence why everything relates to it since every level would hold "earth" as an infinitesimal slice of themselves, as “earth” serves as the starting point of the hierarchy
However, what lies beyond the Ultimate Gate is something fundamentally different; contemplated by the Ancient Ones as “utter and absolute outsideness with which the earth had nothing to do,” meaning it has complete independence from very framework witch governs the Gates (Ie, the aforementioned framework of derivativity) since unlike the gates, it's independent from earth. Or in other words, while the Gates participate in a chain of increasingly real “wholenesses,” that are still connected to “earth” through the fact they're an extension of it. What exists beyond the Ultimate Gate stands completely outside it altogether, existing within an entirely superior framework
As for the High 1-A+, i'm still cloudy on that since i'm no expert on the tier
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I find it funny how neither Shin nor Nova ever tried to justify things like "if the archetypal infinity is truly dimensional and truly wants to describe a dimensional ladder how is it possible that the quote they are using to justify this is internally contradicted".
I have only seen strawman arguments and misinterpretations made by them so far (especially regarding the unnameable and the extension of the earth)
Okstrike
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They haven't even addressed like 90% of the blog and they only cherry picked the weakest arguments they could find, and even then, they still straw man (whether intentionally or not) the arguments
But that's sort of what happens when your entire premise relies on a single statement that isn't supported anywhere else
Sanszillanime
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Here's my problem with scaling the Cthulhu Mythos, you have to rely on vague statements, that simultaneously can upgrade and downgrade the verse. Everything requires someone's own interpretation of said statements, which is what Lovecraft intended. Trying to make sense of the verse and scale it is like trying to know if Annie is ok, or how big our universe is, things we will never know.
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I find it particularly amusing how they tried to debunk things using debunk that the blog has already addressed.
Like the whole "dimensions we know" and "undimensioned" thing, and even without considering that you're explicitly told it's both formless and positionless, which would be outer by definition, especially in the context of the story(ignoring also the whole question of time and matter Which makes It even more blantanly outer).
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- Thread starter
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Speaking of, I added some new information to the debunk and inverse blogs.
Sanszillanime
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Bump
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Never ask a CM scaler why the fragmentation of the archetype happens only in relation to few-dimensioned beings and not dimensioned beings in general
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cuz they r formless n positionless which is also outer btw if u didnt know
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Replace CM with LOTM and it's still accurate
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Re5yh
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Lotm was inspired on CM elements
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Never ask a PSWiki user how to read a scan, because the time scan literally only says that time exists for beings in limited dimensions it does not necessarily imply that those who perceive time are higher-dimensional which is further proven by hound of tindalos statements regarding time(which unronically is basically the same) and how if you see it as illusion you will also see space and by proxy higher dimensional framework as illusion and also even in the very scan you are quoting they tell you that those who sees temporal change as illusion sees shapes(in general) as illusion so good try, it doesn't work.
after this comment, I am going to take my beauty sleep
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Damn man. I wonder why in the same paragraph it says that the beings who don’t perceive that fragmentation are immediately just the ones outside all the gates.
Totally unrelated, mhm-mhm, nom nom nom.
…But, as I write this, I’ve come to realize that I must give my apologies.
After being absolutely taught and rhetorically eviscerated by enlightened minds such as “OkStrike” and “Dio”, I’ve come to the realization that Lovecraft is actually… a total buffoon with no literary coherency!
Silly me, I should’ve realized earlier that Lovecraft is the type of person to put two lines in the same paragraph and for them to be completely unrelated to each other!
Holism? Context? Pfffffff. We only got agenda here!
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yeah because its a collection of multiple works like dc n marvel. did you expect coherency?. even the thing hes appealing to is made by a author thats not lovecraft.
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I wouldn’t expect marvel and DC to have coherency issues within the same chapter of an issue.
Maybe they do, though. I wouldn’t know since I don’t consume slop. (Precoggin LOTM mention)
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I love how you prove my point: you don’t know how to read (though that was expected).
‘To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change.’
I wonder, if Lovecraft wanted to say that only the archetypes could control angles, then why does he say that some students were able to conquer time and change through gaining knowledge of these angles? And why does he say that "BUT the archetypes are outside ALL angles?" Maybe because angularity itself is not bound to temporal change(which is what the time being an illusion is refearing to,temporal change). Wow.
also I love your talk about "context and holistic vision" when you blatantly ignore context and other scans, once again, hound Tindalos and try to attack what you perceive as the weakest argument, very funny....
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ur only arguing for the love of the game lmao. theres no point in doing ts unless a staff member would actually be convinced by ur point.
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I know, you can say I fell for the ragebait, anyway like the tom and okstrike said we can wait mods, I don't really have any will atleast rn to discuss novas as here in italy is late.
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Say that to Type Moon which also takes part of Lovecraft's work, including your LoTM which is also inspired by that series.
I'm amazed at you insulting a work just because some Lovecraft fans don't want to accept your argument, how funny these LoTM fans are.
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Can’t believe I’m agreeing with one dot, two dot on something for once
That’s not an issue to my argument. At all. The scan pretty blatant juxtaposes what is intrinsically bound by change as being low-dimensioned zones and what is intrinsically unbound by it as being the place outside the gates. That there are some rare people who bypass this “intrinsicness” is not a defeater to the duality, or the implication here. I.e that only the Ultimate Abyss is naturally beyond change, because it stands beyond few-dimensioned zones, because being few-dimensioned is what pre-disposes someone to being bound by change. That they bypass such disposition is not relevant here.
I’ll put extra exclamation marks next time so the sarcasm is more obvious.
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Bum_Reality
Mbpoops
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weird way to spell Azathoth_Reality
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It is an issue and even a pretty big one for you.
I guess, it's true by THAT scan ALONE you can make the argument that the conquerors of time and change doesn't really prove that they intrinsically transcends time and they are only a rare exceptions and only the ultimate abyss does that but sadly we have something called context to helps us understand that they do and that cone analogy naturally apply to them, as we know the gates of silver key VERBETEM said that the silver key can change the angle of consciousness to make you become/bring you to places outside and beyond time for example the exstension of the earth or the dreamlands, it would be utterly non-sensical saying that the silver key has the power to bring you to places outside of time if the only place outside of time in nature is the ultimate abyss, this is why I said previously that angularity is not bound by temporal change and that that type of change is what is refeared as illusion in that quote in gates hence with that context which is also in context with things like hound of tindalos(which treat temporal change and higher dimensional framework as illusion much like that scan is saying that those outside of temporal change sees the shapes as illusion, so it's in reference to whoever sees time as illusion which is confirmed with the conquerors) that seeing time as illusion=seeing shapes as one.
the ultimate abyss is the ONLY place outside CHANGE(cuz again angles are change and angles are not bound by temporal change, which is confirmed later with the statement that the silver key changed his angle in one outside of time) straight up but not the only which is by nature outside temporal change which is what the scan talks about as by ruling over these angles these students conquered time and change yet only the archetypes are outside all of them.
sorry, for eventual mistake, it's late here and my brain is cooked cuz it wants to sleep(I just got off work), you can ignore this message if you want,after all only the mods have value here.
good night for real this time.
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I'll make the point simpler and less repetitive for those interested (sorry, I was fried yesterday).
What the quote is saying is: what people call change is merely the product of the mind of the archetypes, and those shapes appear to change but don't because they are merely local aspects of a changeless reality. So it's logical to think, "Oh, well, that's a statement that applies only to archetypes and that's it." But that's not the case, because then you're told that only a few scholars have learned to command these angles and thus conquered TIME AND CHANGE. So, it's telling you that time IS the angle (because the previous quote literally says that time = change). And that's the crux of the question. So, that statement about changing shapes and how they're illusions is merely in reference to the fact that, obviously, the ultimate abyss is outside of temporal change, but we have confermation later (but also before actually, via reasoning) that angularity isn't limited by temporal change, since the silver key can take you/transform you to places outside and beyond space and time by changing the angle of consciousness.
In short what I am saying is, that Scan and the cone analogy Is not talking about angles in general but only temporal angles and how if you see temporal angles as illusion, the cone analogy will be applicable to you so any realm/structure etc beyond time has this, basically another argument for "seeing time as illusion= Beyond dimensional framework."
(Fun fact this argument came in my mind thanks to novas mentioning the Scan and so by Reading It in my mind I came up with another argument for seeing time as illusion= Beyond dimensional framework kek, and even if we ignore this whole argument which I think we shouldnt, It Wont change anything in the grand scheme of things as lol the extension of earth Is formless, hound of tindalos exist, etc LOLOLOLOL)
And btw it's funny cuz the whole discussion started cuz novas was trying to make an argument using a fallacy regarding time and how it's only for limited dimensions and I said to him:
"no, the time statement in Gates of the silver Key doesnt necessarly means that higher dimensional beings sees time as illusion and not only that but hound of tindalos confirm this notion of seeing temporal change as illusion means you also sees space (and higher Dimensional framework) as illusion and the quote you are refearing also support this argument (the quote we were discussing, but anyway it's not that important, it's Just a niche addition to the collection)"
this brief conversation once again proved the point I made about how you guys argue: you ONLY attack the arguments you perceive as the weakest while ignoring the context you constantly claim we ignore, all while committing fallacies yourselves (Example? This continuous obsession with trying to claim that time is neccesarily higher-dimensional, when that is not necessarily the case and requires contex, context which we actually provided through The Hound of Tindalos in the blog , something in this case you guys blatantly try to ignore).
So ye, I Dont have the will to argue if my opponent Is this dishonest, better waiting for mods and their questions.
Sanszillanime
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All of you are both right and wrong in regards to the Cthulhu Mythos. Virtually every statement and feat are purposefully left up to the reader's interpretation. Every debunk, can be debunked with one's own interpretation, and it wouldn't be wrong, because the writing is left ambiguous. Nothing is cohesive.
