- 945
- 660
So right now we have scaling on Cyborg Superman above Mongul and a few other people scaling to Mongul, who we have as scaled to Darkseid from these two statements but....they don't really track with what we see.
For starters let's look at at all the Superman vs Darkseid fights in Post Crisis
In Superman confidential #8, a young Superman gets oneshot by Darkseid and runs away, stating fighting him is madness.
Superman Confidential #10 also has young Superman get greatly hurt by the Omega Beams, needing rescue from Infinity Man
Superman vol 2 (1987) #3 is where Darkseid chokes out Superman and speed rushes him. The same comic has Superman having difficulty with a pacifier, which are weaker than Darkseid himself.
Then, Clark needed to go all out and weaken Darkseid via using his own Omega Beams against him in Action Comics 586. Like he even says he's trying to finish Darkseid off once and for all and isn't holding back. In their next fight, Action Comics 637 and 638, Darkseid easily restrained Superman with telekinesis, then casually beats Superman in a single blast.
Their next fight is in Superman: The Man of Steel #116. This is the Imperiex War saga (our Worlds at war) so Post Eradicator upgrade and Training with Mongul Upgrade. Here, Darkseid blasts Superman off Kalibak, no sells a punch from him, and.incapacitates him in two punches. Superman recovers, then hits him with heat vision for no damage, then uses the Entropy Aegis to block the Omega beams and escapes, with Grayven stating Darkseid let him go
After that, we have Superman vs Darkseid: Apokolips Now, where Superman defeats Darkseid, managing to beat him until his face swells shut. This is the first clear victory we get, as although Superman hit Darkseid with his Omega Beams again in this comic, Darkseid continues fighting at full capacity and doesn't mention being weakened this time.
Next comes Superman/Batman #12 and #13. At first, Darkseid incaps Superman with a punch, but later an enraged Superman sends him flying with a punch. He then rushes him with a two handed blow but Darkseid shrugs it off and counters it with a backhand that drops Superman. Wonder woman interferes and reflects Darkseid's Omega Beams into his eyes. Superman takes the fight to the sun, where he overpowers and breaks Darkseid's arm, defeating him. I'd note this makes it seem like Superman had to sun dip to win, but can be argued out of it.
Countdown to Final Crisis #3 has Superman, enraged at the deaths of the New Gods and Darkseid threatening Jimmy Olsen, fight Darkseid. Superman's heat vision harms him, Darkseid downs him with a hand blast, but Superman does seem to have the advantage before Darkseid "Grows bored" and activates Jimmy Olsen's powers. However, the next issue, Countdown #2 has Superman completely unable to breach Orion's Astro Force tornado (alongside Wally West Flash, Donna Troy and Kyle Rayner Green Lantern) and treat the fight between Orion and Darkseid as beyond them
In all these fights, Superman is presented as having to dig deep and go all out against Darkseid.
Comparatively,
His fight with Mongul in the same time period has a weakened Superman holding back and still mid-diffing Mongul in Superman vol 2 #32
Their next encounter in Man of Steel #26 is only a win for Mongul because Superman is weakened and Hank Henshaw thought Supergirl + Weakened Superman would be enough to kill Mongul.
Their final encounter in Green Lantern vol 3 #53, before Mongul's death in Underworld Unleashed, post Death of S Clark and a rookie Kyle he just met are basically trying to restrain and stop Mongul and he's trying to kill them and going all out and it's still not nearly as difficult as Superman's fights with Darkseid.
Then there's Superman's fights with Mongul Jr.
Jr is stated to be equal to his dad.
In Superman vol 2 #153, immediately after the Imperiex Probe, Superman low-diffs Mongul
In Superman/Batman #3, he no-diffs and does a punch catch on Mongul. While he's under mind control so you could discount this.
In Infinite Crisis #1, Superman mid-diffs him
And finally, Cyborg Superman.
Cyborg Superman is widely accepted to be above Mongul. Fair. However...he's presented as weaker than Darkseid in Hunter/Prey.
A weakened Darkseid's omega beams hurt Hank Henshaw and before they hit, he and Superman were sure they'd kill him. Then when Hank Henshaw amps himself with Apokolips tech, a restored Darkseid oneshots him. And when Darkseid later brings him back to life, in Superman vol 2 #104: Henshaw is terrified of and obediant to Darkseid.
So for our scaling to remain, it'd be: Darkseid>Cyborg Superman>Mongul....= Darkseid?
For starters let's look at at all the Superman vs Darkseid fights in Post Crisis
In Superman confidential #8, a young Superman gets oneshot by Darkseid and runs away, stating fighting him is madness.
Superman Confidential #10 also has young Superman get greatly hurt by the Omega Beams, needing rescue from Infinity Man
Superman vol 2 (1987) #3 is where Darkseid chokes out Superman and speed rushes him. The same comic has Superman having difficulty with a pacifier, which are weaker than Darkseid himself.
Then, Clark needed to go all out and weaken Darkseid via using his own Omega Beams against him in Action Comics 586. Like he even says he's trying to finish Darkseid off once and for all and isn't holding back. In their next fight, Action Comics 637 and 638, Darkseid easily restrained Superman with telekinesis, then casually beats Superman in a single blast.
Their next fight is in Superman: The Man of Steel #116. This is the Imperiex War saga (our Worlds at war) so Post Eradicator upgrade and Training with Mongul Upgrade. Here, Darkseid blasts Superman off Kalibak, no sells a punch from him, and.incapacitates him in two punches. Superman recovers, then hits him with heat vision for no damage, then uses the Entropy Aegis to block the Omega beams and escapes, with Grayven stating Darkseid let him go
After that, we have Superman vs Darkseid: Apokolips Now, where Superman defeats Darkseid, managing to beat him until his face swells shut. This is the first clear victory we get, as although Superman hit Darkseid with his Omega Beams again in this comic, Darkseid continues fighting at full capacity and doesn't mention being weakened this time.
Next comes Superman/Batman #12 and #13. At first, Darkseid incaps Superman with a punch, but later an enraged Superman sends him flying with a punch. He then rushes him with a two handed blow but Darkseid shrugs it off and counters it with a backhand that drops Superman. Wonder woman interferes and reflects Darkseid's Omega Beams into his eyes. Superman takes the fight to the sun, where he overpowers and breaks Darkseid's arm, defeating him. I'd note this makes it seem like Superman had to sun dip to win, but can be argued out of it.
Countdown to Final Crisis #3 has Superman, enraged at the deaths of the New Gods and Darkseid threatening Jimmy Olsen, fight Darkseid. Superman's heat vision harms him, Darkseid downs him with a hand blast, but Superman does seem to have the advantage before Darkseid "Grows bored" and activates Jimmy Olsen's powers. However, the next issue, Countdown #2 has Superman completely unable to breach Orion's Astro Force tornado (alongside Wally West Flash, Donna Troy and Kyle Rayner Green Lantern) and treat the fight between Orion and Darkseid as beyond them
In all these fights, Superman is presented as having to dig deep and go all out against Darkseid.
Comparatively,
His fight with Mongul in the same time period has a weakened Superman holding back and still mid-diffing Mongul in Superman vol 2 #32
Their next encounter in Man of Steel #26 is only a win for Mongul because Superman is weakened and Hank Henshaw thought Supergirl + Weakened Superman would be enough to kill Mongul.
Their final encounter in Green Lantern vol 3 #53, before Mongul's death in Underworld Unleashed, post Death of S Clark and a rookie Kyle he just met are basically trying to restrain and stop Mongul and he's trying to kill them and going all out and it's still not nearly as difficult as Superman's fights with Darkseid.
Then there's Superman's fights with Mongul Jr.
Jr is stated to be equal to his dad.
In Superman vol 2 #153, immediately after the Imperiex Probe, Superman low-diffs Mongul
In Superman/Batman #3, he no-diffs and does a punch catch on Mongul. While he's under mind control so you could discount this.
In Infinite Crisis #1, Superman mid-diffs him
And finally, Cyborg Superman.
Cyborg Superman is widely accepted to be above Mongul. Fair. However...he's presented as weaker than Darkseid in Hunter/Prey.
A weakened Darkseid's omega beams hurt Hank Henshaw and before they hit, he and Superman were sure they'd kill him. Then when Hank Henshaw amps himself with Apokolips tech, a restored Darkseid oneshots him. And when Darkseid later brings him back to life, in Superman vol 2 #104: Henshaw is terrified of and obediant to Darkseid.
So for our scaling to remain, it'd be: Darkseid>Cyborg Superman>Mongul....= Darkseid?
