Bondin' Jimmy (2-A Mario Bonds UES CRT)

[Poketmonsrs]

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[Armorchompy]

Cannot determine the rest. iirc, ArmorChompy at least agreed with a variable tier justification and that 2-B is something Mario and Luigi can only reach when they fight together and shouldn't be assumed accessible in one on one fights. But he is welcome to comment again to clarify, and both Maverick and Dalesean said they agree with ArmorChompy, but they may also clarify.

I'm fine with Empowerment as an ability, but to accept varying tiers I'd have to see what they're varying between. Definitely not 2-B based on current reasoning.

Er, this makes it pretty clear the "everything" he's talking about isn't literal, given the examples given are just... mundane interactions people can have. He's just talking about how important bonds between people are, he's not saying they're the building bricks of the universe.

This leaves me wondering if Cozette's statement is of a similar nature. Saying "bonds are everything" doesn't really need to be a tier 2 statement, it can just be them remarking about the importance of friendship.

The Pure Hearts are concentrations of Bonds,

Are they? We know they're related to the power of love, that's not enough to assume that's all there is to it when they're made off-screen via unknown methods.

I guess so? The point is that he sustains Glohm. Just wondering, do you agree or disagree with that, and why?

That he sustains is in some manner is self-evident. I disagree with the UES.

Well we know that Bonds create the multiverse, so him destroying them would inevitably destroy a power source capable of making worlds, so it doesn't matter whether or not he really knows that. What's important is that Bonds are the source of everything, including dimensions and dream worlds, and he's capable of suppressing such power.

Is there more than just the two Brothership statements to back this up?

Hence why Bonds are 2-A. Reclusa is notably the only character capable of completely erasing Bonds.

"Erasing Bonds" is a mundane matter, it's literally as simple as isolating people so they can't form/sustain relationships. It's not an AP feat.

The Culex and Galaxy statements are there to remind us that Bonds bypass Space and Time to stay together.

I wouldn't say they're there to do that given they predate the concept of "Bonds" by quite a bit. And sure, the idea of

I mean, he does fight them with the Soli-tree in an unwinnable battle, the Bros. need to enter inside it to avoid fighting Weeping Reclusa. So he did use Soli-tree in a fight, which is a battle you're actively encouraged to avoid.

Wouldn't this mean that the bros don't scale to the Soli-tree aka the actual max power of Glohm?

 

[Galactidot]

Er, this makes it pretty clear the "everything" he's talking about isn't literal, given the examples given are just... mundane interactions people can have. He's just talking about how important bonds between people are, he's not saying they're the building bricks of the universe.
This leaves me wondering if Cozette's statement is of a similar nature. Saying "bonds are everything" doesn't really need to be a tier 2 statement, it can just be them remarking about the importance of friendship.

Er, no it doesn't. They're at most talking about different things entirely. Cozette specifically says "everything is made from the energy of Bonds", and we can see this (or the inverse) take place numerous times throughout the game (and series in general). Recall that the Ancients used it to create worlds in Super Paper Mario, Luigi turns into bonds in the opening cutscene of Brothership, and Chakron's statements back this up even further.

Upon death, Reclusa ALSO is reverted to nothing but Bond energy when he fades away.

There isn't really a way to misinterpret "all things being born from the energy of bonds", especially given the context behind the scene.
Grampy Turnip? Sure, he might have been talking about something else. But Cozette just provided a statement in a pretty important part of the game with backup all across the franchise.

Are they? We know they're related to the power of love, that's not enough to assume that's all there is to it when they're made off-screen via unknown methods.

After their power is drained against Super Dimentio, the villains merely having Bonds for each other is enough to revive them from being useless rocks.

Is there more than just the two Brothership statements to back this up?

Yes, I'm showing it to you right now. Even if there weren't more statements or feats, I have seen upgrades regularly get passed for far, far less.

"Erasing Bonds" is a mundane matter, it's literally as simple as isolating people so they can't form/sustain relationships. It's not an AP feat.

Not really considering Bonds hold real power. Also, if you're still referring to his flowers, remember that Reclusa can Glohm people directly.

Glohm LITERALLY destroys Bonds.

I wouldn't say they're there to do that given they predate the concept of "Bonds" by quite a bit. And sure, the idea of

redditsniper

I'll wait for you to finish this

Wouldn't this mean that the bros don't scale to the Soli-tree aka the actual max power of Glohm?

Of course they don't, I also said that they don't scale to the actual max power of Bonds either, that being 2-A. I don't think anybody can scale to that, save for Reclusa under a VERY SPECIFIC set of circumstances that I believe he doesn't meet.

• Bonds are an official verse wide amp that could qualify as a UES, but at the very least justifies variable tiers and potential amps for many characters especially Mario & Luigi
• Mario and Luigi get base tiers updated to Varies based on Bonds, High 6-A normally, up to 2-Bwhen united at their peaks
  • Furthermore, footnotes that they cannot reach the tier on their own and require being together to achieve it.
• Reclusa scales from 2-Bbased on the idea that Mario & Luigi are using bonds at peak that exceeded when they fought Dreamy Bowser
  • If this does not work, Low 2-C environmental destruction for Reclusa could still be valid

 

[JPTheGamer]

I'm fine with Empowerment as an ability, but to accept varying tiers I'd have to see what they're varying between. Definitely not 2-B based on current reasoning.

My thought was Low 2-C because the dreams are made individually, he can just do it a bunch.

This is for another thread as you said but honestly Mario & Luigi's max tier together shouldn't scale to their standalnoe max, they're just stronger when together.

 

[IDK3465]

Hey Armor, just to clarify, what were your main arguments against Bonds/Golhm being a UES again? I don't wanna fight with you about this, I just legitimately forgot lol

 

[Poketmonsrs]

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[Poketmonsrs]

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[Poketmonsrs]

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[SuperMarioGamers3]

Bump

Good on ya for trying to keep this alive!

 

[JPTheGamer]

Why can't we just give only Reclusa the same treatment we gave to Antasma and Dreamy Bowser by making only him Low 2-C/2-B in base and 2-B for his Weeping Reclusa key and be done with it?

 

[Poketmonsrs]

Bump

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Er, no it doesn't. They're at most talking about different things entirely. Cozette specifically says "everything is made from the energy of Bonds", and we can see this (or the inverse) take place numerous times throughout the game (and series in general). Recall that the Ancients used it to create worlds in Super Paper Mario, Luigi turns into bonds in the opening cutscene of Brothership, and Chakron's statements back this up even further.

So, I'm actually going to add onto this, because The Power of Bonds is emphasized in a key story moment from Super Galaxy 2.

In Super Mario Galaxy 2. Rosalina talks about a desire that brings people together, with said power transcending (going beyond) time and space itself, which is exactly how Cozette describes Bond Power. In fact, further context makes this even more clear, as this power she describes, is the will to be with someone else again. This also describes how Mario and Luigi's bonds is in Brothership, as when Mario wants Luigi to be there, it then guided to where Luigi is during the beginning of the game.

Just looking at how Bonds are presented in Brothership, and how insanely connected they are to the entire rest of the Mario series, it would take someone ignoring what the Mario series has basically shoved in our face for several years at this point.

And then, something tangentially related, in Brothership, the Ice Flower is stated to have enough power to freeze even the sun, to which these moves are used in tandem with Mario. In the Epilogue of the just released Galaxy 2 Storybook, the sister lumas Mari and Lu use their bond to create two suns.

 

[Galactidot]

So, I'm actually going to add onto this, because The Power of Bonds is emphasized in a key story moment from Super Galaxy 2.

In Super Mario Galaxy 2. Rosalina talks about a desire that brings people together, with said power transcending (going beyond) time and space itself, which is exactly how Cozette describes Bond Power. In fact, further context makes this even more clear, as this power she describes, is the will to be with someone else again. This also describes how Mario and Luigi's bonds is in Brothership, as when Mario wants Luigi to be there, it then guided to where Luigi is during the beginning of the game.

Just looking at how Bonds are presented in Brothership, and how insanely connected they are to the entire rest of the Mario series, it would take someone ignoring what the Mario series has basically shoved in our face for several years at this point.

And then, something tangentially related, in Brothership, the Ice Flower is stated to have enough power to freeze even the sun, to which these moves are used in tandem with Mario. In the Epilogue of the just released Galaxy 2 Storybook, the sister lumas Mari and Lu use their bond to create two suns.

Yeah this came in at a comical time. Contrary to popular belief, I actually did not break in to Nintendo HQ to make them add a feat of a Bond creating two suns and seemingly causing a big bang creating an infinitely sized universe, but here we are.

All things are born from the energy of Bonds, huh? Well now you get to see it with a Bond creating two suns. And the big bang, considering wind started to flow (which Connie also claimed is thanks to Bonds) and the sky turned blue, providing light for the universe.

Connie: A large amount of energy flows from the Uni-Tree. It's used for all sorts of things... it gives life to plants... it circulates the air... it lights up the darkness at night... it uses heat to boil water... and much more.

There we have it, here's your Bond feat

 

[Armorchompy]

... Except Lumas making stars is nothing new. That's their whole life cycle, pretending this is suddenly UES evidence just because they were friends is ridiculous.

 

[Armorchompy]

@Agnaa @Damage3245

I'd appreciate if you could give this thread a look. It's based on very flimsily held together logic and most notably a UES isn't really proven at all. Given the vote count I would like your attention on it if possible.

 

[Galactidot]

... Except Lumas making stars is nothing new. That's their whole life cycle, pretending this is suddenly UES evidence just because they were friends is ridiculous.

Rosalina then states the reason they did so is because of their Bond.

Regardless, what's even more ridiculous is that Lumas still don't even scale to it yet, when they pretty much should.

 

[Galactidot]

@Agnaa @Damage3245

I'd appreciate if you could give this thread a look. It's based on very flimsily held together logic and most notably a UES isn't really proven at all. Given the vote count I would like your attention on it if possible.

Nothing here is flimsy, give it a read!

Want to test it? Simply ask questions rather than taking things at face value. That's how debates work~

 

[JPTheGamer]

@Agnaa @Damage3245

I'd appreciate if you could give this thread a look. It's based on very flimsily held together logic and most notably a UES isn't really proven at all. Given the vote count I would like your attention on it if possible.

Ffs...

Alright, I'm gonna reiterate my replies since I feel like a lot's being slept on...

Within one of Dr. Vulko's notes, it's strongly implied that Connectar, which is the primary energy source of Concordia holds "limitless power", and later states the Bonds of family, friendship and love produce Connectar along with the Uni-Tree. Per the Tiering System FAQ, infinite power of one thing is generally described to be High 3-A. The Bonds are also stated to transcend the world, and everything exists precisely because everything in the world is born from the energy of the Bonds due to one's 'connections' with someone. The entire Super Mario Cosmology is currently 2-A, and affecting one to infinite 4-dimensional spacetime continuums is well within the Tier 2 range. By this logic, it should mean:

• The Uni-Tree and the Bonds are at the very least High Universe level seeing as how they're producing Concordia with limitless power
• The Bonds transcending the world and everything in the world existing because of the Bonds places them at Universe level+ to Multiverse level+

The OP is right on Bonds meeting criteria from the Universal Energy Systems...

...and it fits even more criteria which was posted later on in this thread. To correctly reiterate the third qualification in this part the OP listed, as I stated before in my previous post here, the UES page says:

This section of the page clearly tells us visual evidence of amplification isn't considered necessary; just that they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals, and there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics. The blog and the OP listed a few instances of the Bonds being used to enhance others and allow users to channel that power through their bodies:

• Bowser and his minions are stated to gain strength from Bonds in Brothership.
• We are also shown that they have the ability to amplify the power of both physical and non-physical/magical attacks. For instance, Mario and Luigi are able to infuse their hammers with Bonds to deal damage in the thousands on Reclusa's ~52560 HP (1086+1740+2404+4066+6659+8892+9137+8601+9975). If you don't attack with bond power, you'll only do around 80 damage per hit.
• Earlier in the game, after Mario and Luigi battle Gorumbla, Wilma, his Aunt, gives him a "Tough Love Punch" after infusing herself with Bond energy. Snoutlet notes her to be even stronger than Mario and Luigi when they aren't amplified at that point of the game, Wilma is also able to build warp pipes that work due to Connectar, a form of Bonds, further establishing Chakron's statement.
• In terms of magic, Mario and Luigi can use a Bros Bomb attack, which combines Bonds with both Fire and Ice to deal significant damage, along with Battle Plugs.

All these instances meet that part of the UES standards of the page; furthermore, DDM stated another rule from the page in this reply:

This is proven when the Mario Bros beat Glohm Bowser and Glohm Gorumbla because when the Glohm leaves them upon their defeat, they revert back into their base forms and statistics while unconscious; not to mention the Bros are battling them with and WITHOUT the Bonds. With all these indicators combined, this must prove THE BONDS ACT AS A UES; even if it doesn't, the evidence of them acting as a stat amp is so blatant it's hard to ignore and not place on the profiles.

The "eradicating all Bonds from the multiverse" part is lacking context; the full statement from Shun is actually this:

Everyone carries some Glohm with them. Dark feelings... Loneliness... Disconnectedness... Reclusa's a monster that turns lonely feelings into energy. And he's been around since long before any of us were born. He hatches from an egg and fills the world with loneliness... When his power is up, he recharges in his egg. If we don't stop him... he'll keep doing that, again, and again.

But this DOESN'T mean Reclusa DOESN'T scale to the Bonds or his dream manipulation; in fact, Reclusa implied he previously broke everyone's connections in many other worlds and all that awaited them was a slow demise. The Glohm is the exact same substance Reclusa used to make the dreams, and it's also the same substance that was used to empower characters like Bowser and Gorumbla, whom Mario and Luigi defeated. The Soli-Tree is basically a warped, evil, dark version of the Uni-Tree; it was formed by Reclusa after he hatched from his egg when he first encountered the Mario Bros, and mind you, this is the exact same egg he recharges in.

Before anybody states Creation Feats need proof that they scale to physicals, I heavily implore you to watch the fights between Glohm Bowser and Glohm Gorumbla; they're shown to use techniques like Glohm-infused punches and shell attacks. Are they displaying explicit Tier 2 feats like universe/multiversal destruction or creation during these fights? Of course not, but this is generally how a lot of pages on this wiki operate:

• Sonic and Son Goku haven't displayed Low Multiverse destruction on a constant everyday regular basis, yet there's at least one or a few instances of them scaling to characters on these tiers or have displayed one or a few instances of things like shaking the Macrocosm.
• As someone who's worked on both the Hellboy and Spawn franchises/verses, while characters like Liz Sherman or Satan haven't constantly displayed Low 1-C or 7-B feats, they still sit on those tiers because they've performed the feat at least once.

None of these instances I listed are treated as outliers by the wiki, and we shouldn't be doing the same thing to characters like Mario, Luigi, and Reclusa in this thread. (And honestly, Idc if this is whataboutism because that's not the point).

 

[Nierre]

I find myself convinced by DDM here.

 

[Armorchompy]

No offense, but convinced by what? Literally every vote in favor of the thread FRA'd Medeus but he hasn't even really made arguments, he's just summarized what the OP is saying without actually acknowledging shit like the fact that there's no evidence for UES or that half the "evidence" is basically guesswork. If you're gonna vote vote for whatever you want but six ******* pages in I'd appreciate the briefest acknowledgement of the points of contention.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, I'm going to make one last post to resume why this thread is full of issues. It's mostly going to be responding to the OP because I don't think the discussion has fundamentally moved much, but maybe putting them all in one place is going to make the issues clearer.

First named in the 2024 release Mario & Luigi Brothership, Bonds are power derived from the very concept of togetherness. Bonds are heavily utilized in the setting of the game, Concordia. The existence of Bonds keeps the land together, and produces an infinite source of power, according to Dr. Vulko.

It can come in many forms, some of the named ones being Connectar and Lumenade. However, Bonds go far beyond the Land of Concordia, and can be seen long before Brothership. The reason for this is quite apparent due to multiple statements that reveal the true nature of Bonds.

According to Cozette and a Grampy Turnip, Bonds are the very source of existence. Bonds create everything, and spread beyond each universe, creating an infinite cycle of creation, lining up with Dr Vulko calling it "infinite energy". They act as a direct inverse to Glohm, which causes an endless cycle of destruction, creating everything and spreads by ascending beyond every universe it's present in.

The Pure Hearts and the Chaos Heart are both explicitly made of Bonds, the latter being made of false ones, being known as Love Power of Chaos in Japan. The Ancients knew how to use Bonds well, creating worlds and the Pure Hearts out of them.

We are also shown that they have the ability to amplify the power of both physical and non-physical/magical attacks. For instance, Mario and Luigi are able to infuse their hammers with Bonds to deal damage in the thousands on Reclusa's ~52560 HP (1086+1740+2404+4066+6659+8892+9137+8601+9975). If you don't attack with bond power, you'll only do around 80 damage per hit.

Earlier in the game, after Mario and Luigi battle Gorumbla, Wilma, his Aunt, gives him a "Tough Love Punch" after infusing herself with Bond energy. Snoutlet notes her to be even stronger than Mario and Luigi when they aren't amplified at that point of the game, Wilma is also able to build warp pipes that work due to Connectar, a form of Bonds, further establishing Chakron's statement.

In terms of magic, Mario and Luigi can use a Bros Bomb attack, which combines Bonds with both Fire and Ice to deal significant damage, along with Battle Plugs.

Bonds can be collected and stored through artifacts like the Bonding Can and the Pure Hearts.

There are huge issues with the Bond scaling here. The idea that it's some kind of universal force is correct, sure. It also definitely amps people, but it's not as fundamental a facet of reality as is being claimed. There's tons of flowery statements that can be treated as support but are in reality simply harping on the importance of friendship/love, but I'm going to focus on the main ones, Cozette and Grampy Turnip's. Both are being presented out of context.

Granpy Turnip's statement for example is very clearly just him talking about the value of relationships and love and whatever. "Everything exists because of connections" sounds like he's talking about all of reality... but then you look at the context and it's clearly just talking about how friendship and bonds are so important to the society we live in, and how bad it would be if Reclusa threatened that. Cozette is the same (posting the english translation because I don't have a gallery with the original, but they're expressing the same thing either way). "All things are born from the energy of bonds" is one thing in a vacuum, but it means something else in the middle of a speech about how people's desire for each other stopped them from being separated.

Almost every other statement is like this. Bonds, or the power of friendship or love or whatever, definitely exist as a real force in the setting, but attributing everything to them on a fundamental level is very wrong.

Most notably, Reclusa uses Glohm to create dream worlds, which would make sense given Glohm scaling to the 2-A creation of Bonds. Reclusa's Glohm also provides Creation and Stabilization.

Being the inverse to the 2-A power of Bonds, Reclusa acts as a source of endless destruction, erasing the very bonds that make up the multiverse. It also has variations and equivalents of all the abilities Bonds can provide.

Reclusa's universal feats have been harshly debated in the past. In truth they aren't actually being created directly by Reclusa, he's just corrupting existing dreams (which due to how the Mario universe functions, are universes of their own) by affecting the minds of those dreaming them. All the evidence to the contrary can be boiled down to a vague mention of "preparing" the dreams (which can mean anything and is hardly reason to attribute a tier 2 feat to Reclusa's own power) and some other similarly vague evidence that doesn't change what is clearly factual.

Additionally, they have to demonstrate or have reliable statements that all their supernatural or otherwise non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency. Hence an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their powers and abilities [3]"


As mentioned above, Bonds and Glohm can empower both physical and non-physical attacks proportionally, and all of them scale to each other in accordance to the amount utilized.

Everyone can use Bonds, but incredibly skilled characters or artifacts are required for Bonds to be used in combat.

As for Glohm, Reclusa can use it to an unlimited extent, and give its power to anyone he desires, like Zokket.

The two forces are able to exchange blows, both physical and non-physical, in combat. As established, Bonds and Glohm are interchangeable, equal forces, exemplified by the existence of Spite Bulbs, Sprite Bulbs (Bond Fairies) disconnected from Bond Energy, which have their power replaced by Glohm thanks to Reclusa, and Reclusa turning into Bond Energy upon his death.

And most of all, Bonds and Glohm fulfill all of the criteria for a UES.

This is the biggest issue. Glohm/Bonds do not actually meet the UES criteria in the slightest. For a UES you need clear proof of a power system where "in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics or of supernatural powers, would also scale to all other statistics if they use the same amount of effort or energy", and "they have to demonstrate or have reliable statements that all their supernatural or otherwise non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency".

All this thread has proven is that Glohm can be used to perform statistic amplifications. A direct relation to tier 2 feats has not been proven or even established to be very likely, and at no point does evidence that Glohm's empowerent is so clearly related to its other feats actually appear in this post or anywhere in the thread. It's all far too vague to justify a UES.

 

[Armorchompy]

@FinePoint @Nierre @Imaginym @SomebodyData @SamanPatou @DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Damage3245 @LephyrTheRevanchist @LordTracer @Qawsedf234

Tagging all people who voted in favor of OP (except for DDM, since he's seen most of my arguments even offsite) and a handful of other staff

 

[AlloyAmi]

Tbh i kinda just agree with armor here. A lot of these statements can be interpreted with much more basic meanings and I again dont think they intended to retroactively apply this one gimmick to literally every game as such a massive amp, especially considering in brothership you have to be showered in it with specific items like the bonding can for it to be so immense. sure power of friends is a common trope that helps, but power in numbers is just a real life thing as well along with that + friendship just being a gimmick/trope in countless verses. A lot of the interpreted higher end foes can be kept up with individually and Galaxy 2's updated storybook suggests the strongest force in the universe is simply a heart that never gives up, or their sheer determination.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

No offense intended Armor, but I personally do not think you even fully understand what a UES actually is, or probably are among the people even against the existence of a UES scaling in the first place. But I digress that, our UES page revision is still being worked on. But anyway, for a qualification on energy system, or later a UES, it doesn't matter if the energy's location is internal (As in inside the user's body) or external (Existing all over the Universe/Multiverse ect). What matter is that it can be a pool of energy, a divine force, or even just digital data, but users of it use it to amplify their physical and supernatural powers interchangeably. As opposed to NPES mainly just being a supernatural magic system consisting of 2 (With physical stats being absent from the energy system) or more elements and a LES being just for one elemental system. I know what might be said, shouldn't we conclude the UES page before moving on or proposing Bonds as a full UES? I sort of agree, but I have written other arguments include ones that deviate from what the OP gathered.

Even if we excluded proposing Bonds as a full UES, it is still 100% a valid physical amplification based on an empathy/concept (Think less about Ki from Dragon Ball, but more how Empathy based empowerments as a whole work. Like Hulk's angrier he gets, the stronger he gets. Colored Lanterns all each have empathy driven power based on an emotion that grows exponentially in unity. Power of Friendship from verses like Fairy Tail or Saint Seiya, and to an extent, Chaos Power from Sonic the Hedgehog series. Or what's actually a perfect comparison would be the Elements of Harmony + Rainbow Power from MLP:FiM series). It still something that justifies a variable tier where characters can use it to essentially amplify themselves indefinitely with no confirmed limit. Even if it jumps from finite tiers to infinite, to cross dimensional, to upper dimensional tiers, Bonds is easily more than capable of it which is more than enough reason to treat bonds as something that grants variable tiers while acknowledging that the full scope of its true power is higher than highest feat ever demonstrated.

The debate on whether or not Bonds is a UES is really only relevant when discussing whether or not Bonds is stabilizing the 2-A sized multiverse or being used to create universes, or whether or not physical stats would at least sort of downscale from potential Environmental Destruction feats. It is still hotly debated to interpret the stabilization thing or even some Low 2-C feats scaling to physicals, but saving future stuff till after those types of revisions are concluded. That being said, there's a lot of agreements on my interpretations on the staff thread, though not everyone. And unlikely if it will be concluded any time soon. However, topics regarding Mario and Luigi using it to amplify themselves to turn tables against Dreamy Bowser being the reason for their victory over him and whether or not Reclusa upscales from Dreamy Bowser because he officially gave Mario and Luigi a tougher fight + Mario and Luigi were more seriously amplified by bonds when they fought Reclusa then they were when they faced Dreamy Bowser are still fair things worth discussing regardless of the outcome of the staff UES thread conclusion. As a result, I am using my own arguments that interlink with some things brought up in the OP, while also excluding the ones the OP brings in repetition offsite and onsite that have either yet to be proven or just seem assumed. I already voiced 2-A stabilization or creation of Low 2-C Dreams from Reclusa being too vague. But Dreamy Bowser had his own 2-B feat via devouring millions of Dreams to empower the Dream Stone, which is what Mario Bros upscale from at their peak bond power, and Reclusa fought what isn't actually peak Mario Bros per say, but just peak so far. Since there technically is no cap or peak for how much stronger Mario Bros get via bonds.

@FinePoint @Nierre @Imaginym @SomebodyData @SamanPatou @DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Damage3245 @LephyrTheRevanchist @LordTracer @Qawsedf234 @Dalesean027 @Maverick_Zero_X @Reiner04 @Celestial_Pegasus @Just a Random Butler @Vietthai96 @Emirp sumitpo @CrimsonStarFallen @GrathOfLux @Dereck03 @Planck69 @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa

I will be pinging those on both sides, as well as some I pinged earlier but haven't voted. But we both wanted more neutral/open-minded staff to evaluate to give their own thoughts or see who they believe make sense. There is not hard feelings on other side, just feel free to support whomever. If you wish to remain neutral and/or not interested, that's also a welcome statement too.

 

[JPTheGamer]

No offense intended Armor, but I personally do not think you even fully understand what a UES actually is, or probably are among the people even against the existence of a UES scaling in the first place. But I digress that, our UES page revision is still being worked on. But anyway, for a qualification on energy system, or later a UES, it doesn't matter if the energy's location is internal (As in inside the user's body) or external (Existing all over the Universe/Multiverse ect). What matter is that it can be a pool of energy, a divine force, or even just digital data, but users of it use it to amplify their physical and supernatural powers interchangeably. As opposed to NPES mainly just being a supernatural magic system consisting of 2 (With physical stats being absent from the energy system) or more elements and a LES being just for one elemental system. I know what might be said, shouldn't we conclude the UES page before moving on or proposing Bonds as a full UES? I sort of agree, but I have written other arguments include ones that deviate from what the OP gathered.

Even if we excluded proposing Bonds as a full UES, it is still 100% a valid physical amplification based on an empathy/concept (Think less about Ki from Dragon Ball, but more how Empathy based empowerments as a whole work. Like Hulk's angrier he gets, the stronger he gets. Colored Lanterns all each have empathy driven power based on an emotion that grows exponentially in unity. Power of Friendship from verses like Fairy Tail or Saint Seiya, and to an extent, Chaos Power from Sonic the Hedgehog series. Or what's actually a perfect comparison would be the Elements of Harmony + Rainbow Power from MLP:FiM series). It still something that justifies a variable tier where characters can use it to essentially amplify themselves indefinitely with no confirmed limit. Even if it jumps from finite tiers to infinite, to cross dimensional, to upper dimensional tiers, Bonds is easily more than capable of it which is more than enough reason to treat bonds as something that grants variable tiers while acknowledging that the full scope of its true power is higher than highest feat ever demonstrated.

The debate on whether or not Bonds is a UES is really only relevant when discussing whether or not Bonds is stabilizing the 2-A sized multiverse or being used to create universes, or whether or not physical stats would at least sort of downscale from potential Environmental Destruction feats. It is still hotly debated to interpret the stabilization thing or even some Low 2-C feats scaling to physicals, but saving future stuff till after those types of revisions are concluded. That being said, there's a lot of agreements on my interpretations on the staff thread, though not everyone. And unlikely if it will be concluded any time soon. However, topics regarding Mario and Luigi using it to amplify themselves to turn tables against Dreamy Bowser being the reason for their victory over him and whether or not Reclusa upscales from Dreamy Bowser because he officially gave Mario and Luigi a tougher fight + Mario and Luigi were more seriously amplified by bonds when they fought Reclusa then they were when they faced Dreamy Bowser are still fair things worth discussing regardless of the outcome of the staff UES thread conclusion. As a result, I am using my own arguments that interlink with some things brought up in the OP, while also excluding the ones the OP brings in repetition offsite and onsite that have either yet to be proven or just seem assumed. I already voiced 2-A stabilization or creation of Low 2-C Dreams from Reclusa being too vague. But Dreamy Bowser had his own 2-B feat via devouring millions of Dreams to empower the Dream Stone, which is what Mario Bros upscale from at their peak bond power, and Reclusa fought what isn't actually peak Mario Bros per say, but just peak so far. Since there technically is no cap or peak for how much stronger Mario Bros get via bonds.

@FinePoint @Nierre @Imaginym @SomebodyData @SamanPatou @DontTalkDT @Agnaa @Damage3245 @LephyrTheRevanchist @LordTracer @Qawsedf234 @Dalesean027 @Maverick_Zero_X @Reiner04 @Celestial_Pegasus @Just a Random Butler @Vietthai96 @Emirp sumitpo @CrimsonStarFallen @GrathOfLux @Dereck03 @Planck69 @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa

I will be pinging those on both sides, as well as some I pinged earlier but haven't voted. But we both wanted more neutral/open-minded staff to evaluate to give their own thoughts or see who they believe make sense. There is not hard feelings on other side, just feel free to support whomever. If you wish to remain neutral and/or not interested, that's also a welcome statement too.

Yeah, and like I said, I've done work on both the Hellboy and Spawn verses, and I can verify with 100% certainty that despite the cast NOT displaying City level to Low Complex Multiverse level feats on a regular basis, they still managed to sit at those tiers. (I don't care if this is whataboutism; it should apply to all verses equally)

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Well, I guess I should also explain the issues with the counterarguments, and why they don't exactly make much sense in the broader context of the Mario series.

Granpy Turnip's statement for example is very clearly just him talking about the value of relationships and love and whatever. "Everything exists because of connections" sounds like he's talking about all of reality... but then you look at the context and it's clearly just talking about how friendship and bonds are so important to the society we live in, and how bad it would be if Reclusa threatened that. Cozette is the same (posting the english translation because I don't have a gallery with the original, but they're expressing the same thing either way). "All things are born from the energy of bonds" is one thing in a vacuum, but it means something else in the middle of a speech about how people's desire for each other stopped them from being separated.

The problem with both critiques of this statement is that is ignores just how important friendship/love/connections are in the Mario Universe as a form of actual Power. As I noted previous, Brothership isn't the only game to claim that connections grow power.

Let's see the Japanese for Cozette, first;
"I tore Connecta Land apart... but... Even so, in this land there was a power — a desire to connect with one another. The efforts of Connetta and everyone on the islands, of course... All things are born from the energy of bonds... And now... the bonds have transcended (went beyond) the world itself...".

Of course, this is talking about the importance of connections, precisely because everything is born from the energy of Bonds. This also applies to Grampy Turnip. Even if they're both talking about those simple connections, note the reasons WHY they they they're important. Why are bonds important? Because everything exists because of them, and that all things are born from the energy of Bonds... but, let's not just use them. Let's use Ms. Cosmic herself!

In Super Mario Galaxy 2. Rosalina talks about a desire that brings people together, with said power transcending (going beyond) time and space itself, which is exactly how Cozette describes Bond Power. In fact, further context makes this even more clear, as this power she describes, is the will to be with someone else again. This also describes how Mario and Luigi's bonds is in Brothership, as when Mario wants Luigi to be there, it then guided to where Luigi is during the beginning of the game. Also, Ami, Rosalina is saying the most powerful force is a heart that doesn't give up is in the context of Mari and Lu never giving up finding each other, ergo, their Bond together as sisters, which still serves as a paralell to the Mario Bros across the series, and Mario & Peach in the game this Storybook takes place in.

Not only that, I'm confident everyone here is also familiar with how it's stated previous that in Super Paper Mario (if you think it's another Dimension or not, doesn't really matter for this), that the Power of Love the Ancients refered to as infinite. The very plot of Super Paper Mario covering how peoples love for each other can manifest into raw and cosmological Power. Look at how the love of Chilliam and Burnadette manifest as Bond Power, or how the love of a mother and her children manifests as Bonds as well.

Bonds not only encompass that, but the Power of Music, which can exist within the souls of people. In the Twistee Island mission, the Mario Bros can use that innate power (their bond) to then make trees grow, exactly how Mario Mix did it.

Reclusa's universal feats have been harshly debated in the past. In truth they aren't actually being created directly by Reclusa, he's just corrupting existing dreams (which due to how the Mario universe functions, are universes of their own) by affecting the minds of those dreaming them. All the evidence to the contrary can be boiled down to a vague mention of "preparing" the dreams (which can mean anything and is hardly reason to attribute a tier 2 feat to Reclusa's own power) and some other similarly vague evidence that doesn't change what is clearly factual.

While this was discussed on and off site, the argument against the Dream Creations are incredibly shaky. Not only do we get a direct statement from Reclusa that he prepared them (thus, he made the Dreams before capturing everyone) - and then we see him state something similar yet again (since the straight reading is absolutely possible), but the Flowers are a part of Reclusa himself, since upon his defeat, all of the flowers end up being destroyed, waking up everyone else, meaning that the Dreams (and the Flowers) are clearly linked to Reclusa himself.

Anyhow, once you consider the context of the Mario series, it's pretty clear how Bonds operate within the Marioverse, and how blatant it all gets once you look at everything.

 

[Lou_change]

The problem with both critiques of this statement is that is ignores just how important friendship/love/connections are in the Mario Universe as a form of actual Power. As I noted previous, Brothership isn't the only game to claim that connections grow power.

I mean I feel we should also consider this is a story for children with a moral about friendship.

"I tore Connecta Land apart... but... Even so, in this land there was a power — a desire to connect with one another. The efforts of Connetta and everyone on the islands, of course... All things are born from the energy of bonds... And now... the bonds have transcended (went beyond) the world itself...".

I already explained the alternative interpretation for this. I will note "And now" kinda implies they didn't always transcend the world.

Bonds not only encompass that, but the Power of Music, which can exist within the souls of people. In the Twistee Island mission, the Mario Bros can use that innate power (their bond) to then make trees grow, exactly how Mario Mix did it.

isn't the tree acknowledged for having a special reaction to music in game.

 

[Galactidot]

I mean I feel we should also consider this is a story for children with a moral about friendship.

Let's not.

Not only is that always a disingenuous argument to say "it's for kids so why take it seriously", but this is also wrong on a series standard front as Brothership was notably toned down multiple times during development.

 

[Lou_change]

Let's not.

Not only is that always a disingenuous argument to say "it's for kids so why take it seriously", but this is also wrong on a series standard front as Brothership was notably toned down multiple times during development.

I am not trying to say bonds and stuff aren't real power or lore. I just think the interpretation of a couple different lines of dialogue that have other ways of interpreting is meant to explain the fundamental nature of existence in universe. Yeah they are from the game about the supernatural power of connection. However the game does also take time to discuss the nature and importance of relationships in a more grounded manner as well.

 

[Galactidot]

I am not trying to say bonds and stuff aren't real power or lore. I just think the interpretation of a couple different lines of dialogue that have other ways of interpreting is meant to explain the fundamental nature of existence in universe. Yeah they are from the game about the supernatural power of connection. However the game does also take time to discuss the nature and importance of relationships in a more grounded manner as well.

True, but I mean, in this scene she is discussing how she was possessed and how the Bros need to stop the devil, and going on about how he has powers "they can barely imagine" in the same scene.

Pretty sure she's talking supernatural here, aren't you?

 

[Lou_change]

True, but I mean, in this scene she is discussing how she was possessed and how the Bros need to stop the devil, and going on about how he has powers "they can barely imagine" in the same scene.

Pretty sure she's talking supernatural here, aren't you?

She also discusses the efforts of people trying to reunite with each other it also isn't the only relevant quote.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

I mean I feel we should also consider this is a story for children with a moral about friendship.

...sure. It can be both.

I will note "And now" kinda implies they didn't always transcend the world.

So? It shows that Bonds can go while the world and male connections. The Great Conductor couldn't have summon Mario & Luigi if not for his ability to create Bonds across the Marioverse.

isn't the tree acknowledged for having a special reaction to music in game.

Uh, no? I don't know where that came from.

 

[Galactidot]

Uh, no? I don't know where that came from.

The Twisten Sprout actually reacts to the Bond Energy exerted by music and dance, and it withers again when Reclusa takes over because Reclusa merely existing was enough to drain it's life force.

 

[Lou_change]

...sure. It can be both.

So? It shows that Bonds can go while the world and male connections. The Great Conductor couldn't have summon Mario & Luigi if not for his ability to create Bonds across the Marioverse.

Uh, no? I don't know where that came from.

Here

 

[Galactidot]

Here

Glohm destroys this tree nourished by dancing btw

 

[JPTheGamer]

This is the biggest issue. Glohm/Bonds do not actually meet the UES criteria in the slightest. For a UES you need clear proof of a power system where "in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics or of supernatural powers, would also scale to all other statistics if they use the same amount of effort or energy", and "they have to demonstrate or have reliable statements that all their supernatural or otherwise non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency".

All this thread has proven is that Glohm can be used to perform statistic amplifications. A direct relation to tier 2 feats has not been proven or even established to be very likely, and at no point does evidence that Glohm's empowerent is so clearly related to its other feats actually appear in this post or anywhere in the thread. It's all far too vague to justify a UES.

Y'know, I've already literally listed the standards and the reasons why Bonds and Glohm meet them multiple times in this thread. To say that "Glohm/Bonds don't meet the criteria in the slightest" is preposterous.

Within one of Dr. Vulko's notes, it's strongly implied that Connectar, which is the primary energy source of Concordia holds "limitless power", and later states the Bonds of family, friendship and love produce Connectar along with the Uni-Tree. Per the Tiering System FAQ, infinite power of one thing is generally described to be High 3-A. The Bonds are also stated to transcend the world, and everything exists precisely because everything in the world is born from the energy of the Bonds due to one's 'connections' with someone. The entire Super Mario Cosmology is currently 2-A, and affecting one to infinite 4-dimensional spacetime continuums is well within the Tier 2 range. By this logic, it should mean:

• The Uni-Tree and the Bonds are at the very least High Universe level seeing as how they're producing Concordia with limitless power
• The Bonds transcending the world and everything in the world existing because of the Bonds places them at Universe level+ to Multiverse level+

The OP is right on Bonds meeting criteria from the Universal Energy Systems...

...and it fits even more criteria which was posted later on in this thread. To correctly reiterate the third qualification in this part the OP listed, as I stated before in my previous post here, the UES page says:

This section of the page clearly tells us visual evidence of amplification isn't considered necessary; just that they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals, and there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics. The blog and the OP listed a few instances of the Bonds being used to enhance others and allow users to channel that power through their bodies:

• Bowser and his minions are stated to gain strength from Bonds in Brothership.
• We are also shown that they have the ability to amplify the power of both physical and non-physical/magical attacks. For instance, Mario and Luigi are able to infuse their hammers with Bonds to deal damage in the thousands on Reclusa's ~52560 HP (1086+1740+2404+4066+6659+8892+9137+8601+9975). If you don't attack with bond power, you'll only do around 80 damage per hit.
• Earlier in the game, after Mario and Luigi battle Gorumbla, Wilma, his Aunt, gives him a "Tough Love Punch" after infusing herself with Bond energy. Snoutlet notes her to be even stronger than Mario and Luigi when they aren't amplified at that point of the game, Wilma is also able to build warp pipes that work due to Connectar, a form of Bonds, further establishing Chakron's statement.
• In terms of magic, Mario and Luigi can use a Bros Bomb attack, which combines Bonds with both Fire and Ice to deal significant damage, along with Battle Plugs.

All these instances meet that part of the UES standards of the page; furthermore, DDM stated another rule from the page in this reply:

This is proven when the Mario Bros beat Glohm Bowser and Glohm Gorumbla because when the Glohm leaves them upon their defeat, they revert back into their base forms and statistics while unconscious; not to mention the Bros are battling them with and WITHOUT the Bonds. With all these indicators combined, this must prove THE BONDS ACT AS A UES; even if it doesn't, the evidence of them acting as a stat amp is so blatant it's hard to ignore and not place on the profiles.

The "eradicating all Bonds from the multiverse" part is lacking context; the full statement from Shun is actually this:

Everyone carries some Glohm with them. Dark feelings... Loneliness... Disconnectedness... Reclusa's a monster that turns lonely feelings into energy. And he's been around since long before any of us were born. He hatches from an egg and fills the world with loneliness... When his power is up, he recharges in his egg. If we don't stop him... he'll keep doing that, again, and again.

But this DOESN'T mean Reclusa DOESN'T scale to the Bonds or his dream manipulation; in fact, Reclusa implied he previously broke everyone's connections in many other worlds and all that awaited them was a slow demise. The Glohm is the exact same substance Reclusa used to make the dreams, and it's also the same substance that was used to empower characters like Bowser and Gorumbla, whom Mario and Luigi defeated. The Soli-Tree is basically a warped, evil, dark version of the Uni-Tree; it was formed by Reclusa after he hatched from his egg when he first encountered the Mario Bros, and mind you, this is the exact same egg he recharges in.

Before anybody states Creation Feats need proof that they scale to physicals, I heavily implore you to watch the fights between Glohm Bowser and Glohm Gorumbla; they're shown to use techniques like Glohm-infused punches and shell attacks. Are they displaying explicit Tier 2 feats like universe/multiversal destruction or creation during these fights? Of course not, but this is generally how a lot of pages on this wiki operate:

• Sonic and Son Goku haven't displayed Low Multiverse destruction on a constant everyday regular basis, yet there's at least one or a few instances of them scaling to characters on these tiers or have displayed one or a few instances of things like shaking the Macrocosm.
• As someone who's worked on both the Hellboy and Spawn franchises/verses, while characters like Liz Sherman or Satan haven't constantly displayed Low 1-C or 7-B feats, they still sit on those tiers because they've performed the feat at least once.

None of these instances I listed are treated as outliers by the wiki, and we shouldn't be doing the same thing to characters like Mario, Luigi, and Reclusa in this thread. (And honestly, Idc if this is whataboutism because that's not the point).

Like, I dunno why you are so fixated on that one rule. You are aware that most of fiction doesn't ALWAYS have their characters show instances where they use the "same amount of effort or energy" at the max level they're currently tiered at via UES or not, right? (i.e. Thor doesn't always show Galaxy level feats despite being tiered there)

Reclusa's universal feats have been harshly debated in the past. In truth they aren't actually being created directly by Reclusa, he's just corrupting existing dreams (which due to how the Mario universe functions, are universes of their own) by affecting the minds of those dreaming them. All the evidence to the contrary can be boiled down to a vague mention of "preparing" the dreams (which can mean anything and is hardly reason to attribute a tier 2 feat to Reclusa's own power) and some other similarly vague evidence that doesn't change what is clearly factual.

Also, you pretty much admitted that Reclusa could just create the dreams individually a bunch a page or two back.

My thought was Low 2-C because the dreams are made individually, he can just do it a bunch.

 

[Lou_change]

Yeah, I've literally listed the standards and the reasons why Bonds and Glohm meet them multiple times in this thread, and honestly, I feel like you and everyone else who agreed with you is not paying attention.

Has the text you quoted changed anyone's opinion any time you have used it?

Glohm destroys this tree nourished by dancing btw

I assume I am missing something

 

[Galactidot]

Has the text you quoted changed anyone's opinion any time you have used it?

I assume I am missing something

Ohhh, I was somewhat off, but also somewhat correct. My apologies.

Bowser attacked Shipshape Island, and Twistee Island was disconnected from the Uni-Tree

Without protection from Glohm, it wilted again.

 

[IDK3465]

Hold on, even if they don't sustain the cosmology, wouldn't Bonds/the power of love as a whole still scale to 2-A due to the Pure Hearts? Just wondering

 

[Lou_change]

Hold on, even if they don't sustain the cosmology, wouldn't Bonds/the power of love as a whole still scale to 2-A due to the Pure Hearts? Just wondering

Why would anyone scale to the pure hearts they amplify the power of love and I believe disappeared at the end of Super Paper Mario