A Revision About A World of Slimes — Conclusions (Final Part)

[Reiner04]

@LephyrTheRevanchist @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint @Planck69 @Random-Helper323 @SomebodyData @Reiner04

What do you think about this solution?

@EldemadeDityjon has expressed his intent to comment on the scaling chain, so I would generally prefer to hold my vote until he does.

However, if he ends up not having enough time to comment, then your proposed solution regarding inside and outside the cardinal world should be fine.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

If the "outside the cardinal world" mechanic is accepted, I also have another suggestion to balance it out. How about adding a note to the cosmology blog that "beings that should be Low 2-C outside are weakened and become 6-B/6-A by the Laws of the World"?

It would only be fair if, in vs-matches, the stage is set to be the Cardinal World, then both sides should be under the World Laws that weaken them.

---

This of course would only be acceptable if the prior suggestion is also accepted.

I personally don't mind either case, whether we go by the OP's original and Elizhaa's suggestion, or by the new suggestion. The voting is up to the staff.

Currently, the vote tally for this specific proposal is:


Option 1 only requires us to edit the cosmology blog one more time. Option 2 requires us to revert all the edits done so far and restrart the editing process.

Moving to the new page

Option 1: Remains as is, and an explanation is added to the Cosmology Blog explaining how the Cardinal World is superior: Elizhaa

Option 2: We shifted to "Old tier inside the Cardinal World, Low 2-C outside" (+ the supplementary option I suggested): Antvasima, Reiner04, LephyrTheRevanchist

 

[Antvasima]

Lephyr also seemed to support my suggestion above.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Lephyr also seemed to support my suggestion above.

I assume you mean this post. Updated the tally.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It would only be fair if, in vs-matches, the stage is set to be the Cardinal World, then both sides should be under the World Laws that weaken them.

We allow characters from SAO to keep their tiers inside the fictional world without affecting their opponents (so they aren't treated as being level 1 if fighting within the game, for example)

No reason to give this verse a special case.

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note that this would require combining all of the information in both of these profile page versions into one whole, and so onwards for all other affected Tensura pages.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Rimuru_Tempest_(Light_Novel)?diff=9498465&oldid=9467812

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

We allow characters from SAO to keep their tiers inside the fictional world without affecting their opponents (so they aren't treated as being level 1 if fighting within the game, for example)

No reason to give this verse a special case.

because the phantoms (who are Low 2-C and are born outside the Cardinal World), when they do come inside, become weakened as well. It's a canon in-verse mechanic, so no reason for it to not be indexed. This isn't about some leveling system but because the cardinal world is protected by the Divine Tree.

Just a note that this would require combining all of the information in both of these profile page versions into one whole, and so onwards for all other affected Tensura pages.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Rimuru_Tempest_(Light_Novel)?diff=9498465&oldid=9467812

It would become something like:

Large Country level inside the Cardinal World (Rimuru is at least a Special A Calamity class monster; harmed and consumed Ifrit and Orc Disaster Geld, absorbing their powers; consumed the core of Charybdis, becoming stronger each time until he reached Disaster Class, being capable of effortlessly defeating the likes of the Sky Dragon; Far stronger then before after training under Milim Nava, so much so that Milim stated that he was now qualified to declare himself a Demon Lord, making him at least comparable to the likes of Carrion, Frey and Clayman), Universe level+ outside (Those with an Existence Value of over a Hundred Thousand can destroy a weak world if they don't hold back)

And mimic the same format for all cases effected by this.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

because the phantoms (who are Low 2-C and are born outside the Cardinal World), when they do come inside, become weakened as well. It's a canon in-verse mechanic, so no reason for it to not be indexed. This isn't about some leveling system but because the cardinal world is protected by the Divine Tree.

We are indexing the character and their mechanics, and within a versus thread, these mechanics affect them, not their opponents (unless they have something that can extend the effects of the Cardinal World passively, something they can actually apply in combat)

However, I would encourage making a Location Profile explaining these mechanics in more detail for the benefit of the indexing.

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe you can simply let the Tensura characters fight opponents with different types of power levels?

 

[Antvasima]

It would become something like:

And mimic the same format for all cases effected by this.

Well, all of the justifications, including linked or referenced evidence, would need to remain.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

We are indexing the character and their mechanics, and within a versus thread, these mechanics affect them, not their opponents (unless they have something that can extend the effects of the Cardinal World passively, something they can actually apply in combat)

However, I would encourage making a Location Profile explaining these mechanics in more detail for the benefit of the indexing.

I didn't know this was a thing...
Aight, I'll try this if we go the option 2 route

 

[SomebodyData]

I see that the discussion has had some development since I last commented.

To confirm, I'd support option 2 but I'll suggest maybe making the location profile first then going on with the updates given how important it'll be to the profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. We seem to have reached a conclusion here then.

 

[Antvasima]

Was this mandatory statistics update ever handled?

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Was this mandatory statistics update ever handled?

I see that the discussion has had some development since I last commented.

To confirm, I'd support option 2 but I'll suggest maybe making the location profile first then going on with the updates given how important it'll be to the profiles.

.
We are working on Data's suggestion to create a location profile
To make the statistics rating clearer

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Snip

Snip

Snip

I've made the location profile as said earlier

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Astral_Trinity439/Location

Please tell me if it is fine. This is my first time creating a page of this type, so I probably made some mistakes.
And could you also ping the rest of the staff that participated here?

Namely @Random-Helper323, @Planck69, @SomebodyData, @Elizhaa and @DarkDragonMedus

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Looks good to me at least.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Looks good to me at least.

Now, should we add the "low 2C" on the profiles, or as a general note for the verse?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Now, should we add the "low 2C" on the profiles, or as a general note for the verse?

Ant an I at least agree with having two keys for the profiles (one for when they are inside Cardinal World, one when outside it). Depend what the other staff members agree to.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Ant an I at least agree with having two keys for the profiles (one for when they are inside Cardinal World, one when outside it). Depend what the other staff members agree to.

Yeah, I think it's better to just add "outside the cardinal world", with the appropriate stats, since it doesn't affect what we normally do keys for (evolutions)

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Namely @Random-Helper323, @Planck69, @SomebodyData, @Elizhaa and @DarkDragonMedus

Your help is appreciated here
@Random-Helper323 , @Planck69 , @SomebodyData , @Elizhaa , @DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Yeah, I think it's better to just add "outside the cardinal world", with the appropriate stats, since it doesn't affect what we normally do keys for (evolutions)

I think it's better to say "Low 2-C, X inside the Cardinal World" as it's the Cardinal World's laws that are doing the work

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

The location profile draft seems fine to me, but I am not the best person to ask.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

The location profile draft seems fine to me, but I am not the best person to ask.

By the way, while we agreed to the rating for the Cardinal World and outside being different, the original focus was on "Outside", but now that the location profile is created to clear things up, would you be fine with a rating like this?

Universal+ (Insert description), Country level inside the Cardinal World (Insert Description)

This is because, as shown in the location profile, it is the cardinal world that is special and places restrictions, not the other way around.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that the in-universe/in-cardinal world statistics should be written first, in order to avoid confusion, since that is what visitors to our site will be by far most familiar with from reading the stories.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I think that the in-universe/in-cardinal world statistics should be written first, in order to avoid confusion, since that is what visitors to our site will be by far most familiar with from reading the stories.

While yes that is what the readers are familiar with, it can make some misunderstandings, such as the visitors thinking they are getting a buff outside, rather than being nerfed inside. Shouldn't we prefer accuracy over tradition?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I still support having the ratings separated by keys on the profile. That way there's no confusion and looks better (imo)

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I still support having the ratings separated by keys on the profile. That way there's no confusion and looks better (imo)

Wouldn't that mean we'll be separating, let's say, the already existing 5 keys to another 5 keys on Rimuru's profile?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I still support having the ratings separated by keys on the profile. That way there's no confusion and looks better (imo)

I will say, that seems to be the worst option, Tensura keys are split by "evolutions", so each new evolution (most have at least 3), would require a new "key", meaning all profiles would go from 3-5 to 6-10, it would just be a lot more clutter, since it brings nothing new but a "tier"...

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Wouldn't that mean we'll be separating, let's say, the already existing 5 keys to another 5 keys on Rimuru's profile?

I will say, that seems to be the worst option, Tensura keys are split by "evolutions", so each new evolution (most have at least 3), would require a new "key", meaning all profiles would go from 3-5 to 6-10, it would just be a lot more clutter, since it brings nothing new but a "tier"...

Or

We only add the key when it's appropriate. The stages at where he grows while inside Cardinal World.

Like, it doesn't seem that complicated to me

Edit: and profiles with a lot of keys are not unheard of

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

We only add the key when it's appropriate. The stages at where he grows while inside Cardinal World.

That's what we are somewhat doing (evolution vise)... The issue in Tensura is that if we added a new "strength key" after every "strength growth", due to the insane RE, we would need keys after literally every battle.... So that idea is something that we can't accept, no matter what.

So doing it the way you are proposing is literally impossible...

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That's what we are somewhat doing (evolution vise)... The issue in Tensura is that if we added a new "strength key" after every "strength growth", due to the insane RE, we would need keys after literally every battle.... So that idea is something that we can't accept, no matter what.

So doing it the way you are proposing is literally impossible...

I don't mean growth after every fight. I mean actually notable growth that involves change in tiering. All else is handled with a "far higher with RE"*

Because if you're trying to suggest every fight involves a change in tier, then you are already in deep trouble, because these changes do need to be accounted for.

Edit: *or simply making a scaling blog where these growths can't be quantified, although there's a thread trying to change our upscaling rules, and depending how it goes off, you will still have to rethink how you approach the profiles for TenSura

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Or

We only add the key when it's appropriate. The stages at where he grows while inside Cardinal World.

Like, it doesn't seem that complicated to me

Edit: and profiles with a lot of keys are not unheard of

That he does in every key.
Inside the Cardinal world itself, he's large country lvl in first key, multi continental lvl in second key. That would then be 2 keys since his 3rd key would not have to rely on the phantom chain-scaling used in first key and have its own tier 2 rating.

Also, he growth is reflected both inside and outside the cardinal world. So he'll have a country lvl key for his demon slime self, then a Low 2-C key for outside the cardinal world. Then a multi continental for his demon lord self, then a key for the same outside CW. Then 2 keys for his pre-ultimate slime self. The next 2 keys aren't affected so they don't multiply, but that's still 8 keys in total...

But almost all the profiles (except true dragons and top tiers of octagram) would have the same done to multiple of their keys. So that's turning characters that have 3 keys on their profile to 6...


Honestly would be so much better if we just treated cardinal world as special and just listed the specific stuff for it only on the location profile, like some other verses (an example would be Nasuverse).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That he does in every key.
Inside the Cardinal world itself, he's large country lvl in first key, multi continental lvl in second key. That would then be 2 keys since his 3rd key would not have to rely on the phantom chain-scaling used in first key and have its own tier 2 rating.

Also, he growth is reflected both inside and outside the cardinal world. So he'll have a country lvl key for his demon slime self, then a Low 2-C key for outside the cardinal world. Then a multi continental for his demon lord self, then a key for the same outside CW. Then 2 keys for his pre-ultimate slime self. The next 2 keys aren't affected so they don't multiply, but that's still 8 keys in total...

But almost all the profiles (except true dragons and top tiers of octagram) would have the same done to multiple of their keys. So that's turning characters that have 3 keys on their profile to 6...


Honestly would be so much better if we just treated cardinal world as special and just listed the specific stuff for it only on the location profile, like some other verses (an example would be Nasuverse).

Unfortunately, because these are specific to the individual characters growth while under the constraints of the Cardinal World, these should go on their profiles themselves.

6-8 keys aren't problematic, ngl. I linked pages with 9-10 keys. You could even separate it like those profiles do, where the ratings themselves are divided by tabbers.

So yeah. This is my vote. It depends now what other staff end up agreeing with.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Unfortunately, because these are specific to the individual characters growth while under the constraints of the Cardinal World, these should go on their profiles themselves.

Well, it isn't like they get an energy boost while outside the cardinal world. The same amount of energy is used but it achieces astronomically greater results.

6-8 keys aren't problematic, ngl. I linked pages with 9-10 keys. You could even separate it like those profiles do, where the ratings themselves are divided by tabbers.

So yeah. This is my vote. It depends now what other staff end up agreeing with.

On the same note, are tabbers allowed for the statistics rating and stuff? Since each AP rating is decently long, that would help if it's possible

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

On the same note, are tabbers allowed for the statistics rating and stuff? Since each AP rating is decently long, that would help if it's possible

Edit: and profiles with a lot of keys are not unheard of

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

Oh, alright
Thanks. I guess we can go about this cleanly this way.

 

[Ciel_Trinity439]

Can I know what others think about this?

Universal+ (Insert description), Country level inside the Cardinal World (Insert Description)

This is because, as shown in the location profile, it is the cardinal world that is special and places restrictions, not the other way around.
@Random-Helper323, @Planck69, @SomebodyData, @Elizhaa, @DarkDragonMedeus