Low Tier Marvel Comics Speed Revisions

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.

 

[M3X_2.0]

@KLOL506 tag em moderators please……

 

[KLOL506]

@KLOL506 tag em moderators please……

Currently on a break but sure.

@Planck69 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Qawsedf234 @Emirp sumitpo @UchihaSlayer96 @LordTracer @KingTempest

 

[DaReaperMan]

Outside of character-by-character basis justifications, what's going to be the overall justification applied to everyone?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Outside of character-by-character basis justifications, what's going to be the overall justification applied to everyone?

"Kept up with _____" or "Kept up with ______ who's equal to _____"

 

[Armorchompy]

I think there's just kind of an obvious flaw with trying to split scaling without proper research, characters you're outlining as "low tiers" here are basically never distinctly faster than street tiers (Neither are heralds but that's a matter for another thread). Just picking a random example but Grey Gargoyle (Who's fought Cap and other street tiers), Daken (X-Men character) both have scaling to Reed Richards just off his profile, Human Torch has a billion instances of Spider-Man scaling to him in Marvel Team-Up (where a bunch of randos also land hits on them), as you yourself showed Emma Frost tagged Black Bolt, Black Panther and Hank Pym have tagged Namor, so on so forth. Even Trapster's landed hits on Ben Grimm lol

 

[Rgerdeena]

I think there's just kind of an obvious flaw with trying to split scaling without proper research, characters you're outlining as "low tiers" here are basically never distinctly faster than street tiers (Neither are heralds but that's a matter for another thread). Just picking a random example but Grey Gargoyle (Who's fought Cap and other street tiers), Daken (X-Men character) both have scaling to Reed Richards just off his profile, Human Torch has a billion instances of Spider-Man scaling to him in Marvel Team-Up (where a bunch of randos also land hits on them), as you yourself showed Emma Frost tagged Black Bolt, Black Panther and Hank Pym have tagged Namor, so on so forth. Even Trapster's landed hits on Ben Grimm lol

Grey gargoyle didn’t land a single hit and was stomped in the scan you showed, namor varies(his profile just doesn’t mention it) so his anti feats don’t mean much unless you can prove how well hydrated he was in those instances, the only possibly valid example you gave is the daken one but with no context as to how daken hit reed it doesn’t prove anything

 

[Armorchompy]

Grey gargoyle didn’t land a single hit and was stomped in the scan you showed, namor varies(his profile just doesn’t mention it) so his anti feats don’t mean much unless you can prove how well hydrated he was in those instances, the only possibly valid example you gave is the daken one but with no context as to how daken hit reed it doesn’t prove anything

Yeah you're right he didn't for Gargoyle, I misread that one. But Daken is clearly swinging at Reed from the front where he'd see it coming, Namor's varies isn't accepted (though I agree it's probably real), and these kinds of anti-feats are very easy to find. MODOK tags Ms Marvel, Agent Venom fights the U-Foes (FF/low end Hulk villains), Beetle hits Human Torch, Bishop owns Colossus (Scaled to Thing on-site), Cloak dodges a hit from Doctor Doom, this is all just off me skimming the A to C section of the verse page.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Cloak dodges a hit from Doctor Doom,

To be fair, Doctor Doom holds back like, A LOT. He's one of those characters who plays with his food enough to be a Spider-Man villain on occasion.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

They ain't street tiers so they shouldn't scale to street tiers, even Firelord has fought Spiderman and we ain't using that to either upgrade Spiderman or to downgrade Firelord. Most of the characters whom the calcs presented here belong have feats with fighting in space against "cosmic" threats.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

They ain't street tiers so they shouldn't scale to street tiers, even Firelord has fought Spiderman and we ain't using that to either upgrade Spiderman or to downgrade Firelord. Most of the characters whom the calcs presented here belong have feats with fighting in space against "cosmic" threats.

Pretty sure that's the point of calling them a different tier than the streets and the heralds in the first place.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Yeah you're right he didn't for Gargoyle, I misread that one. But Daken is clearly swinging at Reed from the front where he'd see it coming, Namor's varies isn't accepted (though I agree it's probably real), and these kinds of anti-feats are very easy to find. MODOK tags Ms Marvel, Agent Venom fights the U-Foes, Beetle hits Human Torch, Bishop owns Colossus, Cloak dodges a hit from Doctor Doom, this is all just off me skimming the A to C section of the verse page.

Modok’s energy projection is upper mid tier and is able to blitz Captain America, that agent venom vs u foes fight is obviously an outlier unless you want to argue that agent venom’s upper mid tier in all stats, beetle’s feat seemed to be from flight speed, albeit I don’t know whether or not their reactions scale to their flight speed, cloak was teleporting and I can’t tell who started first between doom blasting and cloak teleporting so that needs more context, bishop’s is valid but it and the daken thing are just two feats

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

MODOK tags Ms Marvel,

That was MODOK's beam/laser whatever which is specifically stated to have the speed of thought whatever speed that is, that story involves MODOK hiring deathbird to attack Carol because he clearly couldn't himself, the laser is clearly faster than MODOK.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.



Remind me to never make a Marvel thread again.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.

 

[Eficiente]

Throwing a couple of cents. On the "Captain America punches Hawkeye's arrows" calc, I don't like it, Cap could have very well blocked the shoot before or as Hawkeye was shooting that arrow. Not after it. Since it's all in the same panel, the events play out in our heads. It's no different than a calc that may be aim-dodging in that sense.

Spider-Man holding back is crazy, stupid, and nonsensical. However, how so would require a document/blog-long list of evidence showing how crazy, stupid, and nonsensical it is, and that would prove if it affects speed or not. I believe it affects speed. I don't believe it's reasonable to affirm it affects speed without strong evidence like that, we all need to be on the same page. So I can't agree with that for this thread. (Tell you this for free, once a blog like that is made, it will not make Spider-Man Planet level.)

I believe there is a statement going over how Spider-Man has been holding back for so long, he doesn't even know how much he holds back and when he does it anymore. Something like that. Portraying Spider-Man holding back not as "an athlete fighting a regular person or a little kid", but "someone whose physical stats are controlled in a unique, inhuman way, and that he can't fully control and measure his own stats during fights, even with his life at peril, with his stats going up and down beyond his own awareness". I don't have a source for this, sadly.

There is a tad of precedent for speed changing for characters holding back: Remember that Thor statement saying how "we"/implied to be many in Marvel Comics hold back? It starts on whether or not he could keep up with Quicksilver in a race if he tried hard enough. His response to that topic? Ambiguous. Maybe his speed changes depending on the need of the moment, maybe it doesn't. Thing is, even if ambiguous, that possible implication alone is f*cking massive. You would think a hero would be braindead if they fought a mass murder who could kill them and destroy the world, and the hero was secretly holding back even their Combat Speed. Imagine if the answer to that was "Ah you know, maybe".

But that doesn't change what I said before about Spidy.

Thumbs up for recognizing Flight Speed=/=Combat Speed and acceleration affecting Flight Speed. That's all I have to say.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Spider-Man holding back is crazy, stupid, and nonsensical. However, how so would require a document/blog-long list of evidence showing how crazy, stupid, and nonsensical it is, and that would prove if it affects speed or not. I believe it affects speed. I don't believe it's reasonable to affirm it affects speed without strong evidence like that, we all need to be on the same page. So I can't agree with that for this thread. (Tell you this for free, once a blog like that is made, it will not make Spider-Man Planet level.)

Tbh I’m considering the fact that a varies by emotional state is better then holding back, since there’s nearly as much evidence that his emotions effect his power as there is that he constantly holds back, overall it’s probably a combination of emotional state and holding back, but all of this is better for a spider man CRT then this general CRT

I believe there is a statement going over how Spider-Man has been holding back for so long, he doesn't even know how much he holds back and when he does it anymore. Something like that. Portraying Spider-Man holding back not as "an athlete fighting a regular person or a little kid", but "someone whose physical stats are controlled in a unique, inhuman way, and that he can't fully control and measure his own stats during fights, even with his life at peril, with his stats going up and down beyond his own awareness". I don't have a source for this, sadly.

Would be useful if someone finds the source

There is a tad of precedent for speed changing for characters holding back: Remember that Thor statement saying how "we"/implied to be many in Marvel Comics hold back? It starts on whether or not he could keep up with Quicksilver in a race if he tried hard enough. His response to that topic? Ambiguous. Maybe his speed changes depending on the need of the moment, maybe it doesn't. Thing is, even if ambiguous, that possible implication alone is f*cking massive. You would think a hero would be a braindead if they fought a mass murder who could kill them and destroy the world, and the hero was secretly holding back even their Combat Speed. Imagine if the answer to that was "Ah you know, maybe".

Thor’s a very different case from anyone else when it comes to holding back so not the best example, but yeah there’s probably a few times that notable hold back characters confirmed or implied they hold back speed

 

[Rex_Eckles]

humbs up for recognizing Flight Speed=/=Combat Speed and acceleration affecting Flight Speed. That's all I have to say.

If I may, do you have anything to say about Suig and my own many arguments for these feats applying to combat speed? Especially regarding feats like Black Bolt’s requiring relative reactive speed to travel speed?

 

[Eficiente]

Tbh I’m considering the fact that a varies by emotional state is better then holding back, since there’s nearly as much evidence that his emotions effect his power as there is that he constantly holds back, overall it’s probably a combination of emotional state and holding back, but all of this is better for a spider man CRT then this general CRT

Would be useful if someone finds the source

Thor’s a very different case from anyone else when it comes to holding back so not the best example, but yeah there’s probably a few times that notable hold back characters confirmed or implied they hold back speed

Glad we agree. On the Thor part, you don't say it but I trust you know I focus on the "we" he says. We being the heroes in general, people with super stats in general, or whatever. I would love to think he just means, "Thor level characters", but that would be projecting as that was not what he was saying.

If I may, do you have anything to say about Suig and my own many arguments for these feats applying to combat speed? Especially regarding feats like Black Bolt’s requiring relative reactive speed to travel speed?

Can you link the comment? Sorry. On Black Bolt's feat, I'm not sure if the speed was the first missile's own, or if the psychic redirection helped add to the missile's own speed to make it that fast. If it's the latter, it would be a form of Attack Speed almost never to be seen and scaled (It would kinda remind me of how Magneto uses his powers to drag things at interstellar distances super fast, and then he just moves and tosses things in combat with his powers at provably slower speeds).

Are there more of those missiles?; Do they try to home in on their original targets? If so, the fact that the missile didn't and didn't even try to alter course at all maybe shows that Black Bolt's powers guided it all the way. Or maybe the missile was too fast for that realistic function. Or maybe that function "could" be assumed even if not shown. I'm not sure what to make of this for now.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Glad we agree. On the Thor part, you don't say it but I trust you know I focus on the "we" he says. We being the heroes in general, people with super stats in general, or whatever. I would love to think he just means, "Thor level characters", but that would be projecting as that was not what he was saying.

Yeah but, we can mean a lot of different things and there’s not really any reason to assume when he says we he’s referring to every character in the verse who holds back

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Alright, so the Iron Man Model 4 has shown reaction and maneuverability while flying in Iron Man #120, Iron Man Annual #7, Iron Man #172, Avengers #193, and Iron Man #173. She-Hulk could also dodge the Model 4 rocketing towards her at close range in Savage She-Hulk #6.

I found two other instances of the Model 4 dodging projectiles mid-flight, but I couldn't find the issue numbers for the scans.

I also noticed, on Emma Frost's profile, she seems to react to and intercept Black Bolt flying at her from behind in Inhumans vs X-Men #5.

All the scans I brought up either straight up say or imply she is moving at a really high speed during a fight, all of those emphasize her speed.

We do have a way.
First scan she literally states she is at her utmost speed, you have a weird interpretation of this but she is literally describing what she was doing as I have already said earlier
Second Scan she states "My only advantages are my speed and my agility-- but even I can't keep this pace forever" clearly emphasizing how she is going fast to the point where she can't keep it for long usually meaning top speeds which no one can keep for long time, it is also states by her and the narrator that any mistake she makes can kill her so she is fighting for her life.
Third scan , she states that Tiger Shark has lightning reactions for catching her feet while she is still taking off which means she reached that acceleration in less than 2 meter.
Fourth scan she is stating she needs to move fast because she is fighting to protect someone who is getting hurt as a hero it's a basic assumption that she is going at her top speed since she has a clear good reason to do so.

One of the feats calced is when she found an opening during a fight which she uses to push him through multiple buildings before taking him to space and the whole way up the skrull was hitting her so it's not like she was moving faster than he could react to.

I can also bring up that while in a fight she was moving relative to objects moving at light speed fighting while the objects are still going up

Her modern version is scaling MFTL+ from a feat where during a fight they moved light years none of her versions have a big different between flight and combat speed.

Now we're talking about something else. You realize that no matter what speed the rocket is, it;s unrealistic to have a whole conversation and still have time to stop it gives how close it is?


Yet it is still accurate to say someone going FTL is faster than the speed of sound. Also, stop adding words that aren't there, the panel said "miles above", not "several miles above". By that logic, no one would say a library has books in it.


Acceleration isn't fixed, someone can increase acceleration if necessary. Also, this relies on them accelerating throughout the entire trip instead of reaching their max speed part-way through the trip. Why should we assume that, especially since many comics, other works of fiction, and even reality don't treat it that way?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Are there more of those missiles?; Do they try to home in on their original targets?

Not sure, but homing it wouldn't be required to target a specific location, real missiles do that without homing in.

if the psychic redirection helped add to the missile's own speed to make it that fast

As far as I can tell, Black Bolt just shot it to change it's tragectory.

Thanks anyway.

 

[Eficiente]

Yeah but, we can mean a lot of different things and there’s not really any reason to assume when he says we he’s referring to every character in the verse who holds back

You can say that. But it would beg the question, "If Thor is only talking about characters who hold back who do this, why are there characters who hold back who don't do this? What's so different in their mindsets?" Then you look back at Thor's statement, and you see it could possibly refer to everyone of those. At the very least, it's problematic to have a universe where some characters are that naive. It opens the door to more characters being similarly naive, if further context goes that route.

Alright, so the Iron Man Model 4 has shown reaction and maneuverability while flying in Iron Man #120, Iron Man Annual #7, Iron Man #172, Avengers #193, and Iron Man #173.

It is possible for one's combat speed to use a flight speed on a slower speed than their max flight speed. I know Human Torch does this, he has at least 2 statements about. Does Iron Man have any statement putting his flight speed at a higher speed than his regular speed or the like? If not then sure, I would agree that he can react to it.

I mean, it could still be that he's moving slower on those scans, but I don't believe we would assume as much in the wiki.

First scan she literally states she is at her utmost speed, you have a weird interpretation of this but she is literally describing what she was doing as I have already said earlier

That's scan is absolutely great.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Does Iron Man have any statement putting his flight speed at a higher speed than his regular speed or the like?

I do not know, I haven't read nearly enough Iron Man comics to know for sure. However, I haven't come across any indication of that yet.

 

[Rgerdeena]

You can say that. But it would beg the question, "If Thor is only talking about characters who hold back who do this, why are there characters who hold back who don't do this? What's so different in their mindsets?" Then you look back at Thor's statement, and you see it could possibly refer to everyone of those. At the very least, it's problematic to have a universe where some characters are that naive. It opens the door to more characters being similarly naive, if further context goes that route.

why are you asssuming that everyone in marvel has the same mindset when they all have different intelligence levels different intelligence specialties different amounts of experience different types of experience etc etc etc, like sure characters that hold back have the same overall idea but the specifics vary from character to character

 

[Eficiente]

Well, for one, as Thor shows at least some characters with different intelligence levels, specialties, amounts of experience, types of experience, etc. show doing this much in their mindset commonly without ever having a meeting and agreeing to behave like that. They all just so happen to learn to have this behavior by themselves, regardless of their vastly different lives. Sure, real life logic wise, that would be unlikely. But in terms of how they choose to write the characters in this series' universe, it makes perfect sense that so many would have that in common.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Well, for one, as Thor shows at least some characters with different intelligence levels, specialties, amounts of experience, types of experience, etc. show doing this much in their mindset commonly without ever having a meeting and agreeing to behave like that. They all just so happen to learn to have this behavior by themselves, regardless of their vastly different lives. Sure, real life logic wise, that would be unlikely. But in terms of how they choose to write the characters in this series' universe, it makes perfect sense that so many would have that in common.

Eh, if you get scans fair enough

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

@The_Impress @Firestorm808 @Qawsedf234

What do you think should be done here?

 

[The_Impress]

I'll be honest we either genuinely consider antifeats with the same stringency as we do AP (which admittedly nobody on the wiki does), or just leave combat speed Unknown. The biggest flaw with speed in Marvel is the writers have never once believed a character was fundamentally too fast for the opponent to ever hit, and stuck by that, because it makes for boring comics.

Like for instance take Spider-Man, who probably has the most instances of speedblitzing characters, I can list far more instances of him getting tagged by absolute mooks within his own rogues gallery alone (Gibbon, Trapster, Tarantula, Boomerang, Enforcers), who he can be blitzing in one instance, but the writer has to make him get tagged because otherwise it makes for lame storytelling (usually I believe it's through an unsaid exhaustion mechanism, which yknow is a real thing, just given the ratings we are attributing to them, not to this extent). This is akin to Hulk absolutely mauling the US military, nukes n all, but randomly getting hurt by a tank shell midway just because he was tired.

So for solutions, I suppose we have these options:

• We treat speed as a variable (or functionally variable) for most mainline characters, treating it under an unsaid exhaustion mechanic, this I believe is a proposal getting floated around already? That makes every character's speed freefall to their own feats or if there is a consistency: more concentrated scaling nets, if we apply our usual scrutiny for cross-scale
• Disregard antifeats as PIS, this leads to another rating freefall for the scaling characters. This is more arbitrary and/or more research intensive to justify, and leads to higher, rigid results for the characters, which might be appreciable to some.
• Disregard high end feats as outliers, so it's some low end rating that's the lowest common denominator.
• As said, leave everything Unknown and just do comparative scaling/list any relevant speed feats of their own in that section. That way the reader can come to their own conclusion (You can even leave calcs if you so desire). Personally I prefer this, but people tend to prefer actual ratings so I assume this is the unpopular proposal.

(One of these not all of these)

I think speed holdback is dumb, no real logical consistency there. I think we sorta already push the limits of holdback mechanisms because we assume the characters randomly lower their durability (which they do, genuinely bewildering writing consistency there)

Is this more agreeable I suppose? To be honest I don't do speed scaling in general, so I am admittedly less informed or invested in this whole project.

 

[Armorchompy]

We treat speed as a variable (or functionally variable) for most mainline characters, treating it under an unsaid exhaustion mechanic, this I believe is a proposal getting floated around already? That makes every character's speed freefall to their own feats or if there is a consistency: more concentrated scaling nets, if we apply our usual scrutiny for cross-scale

I don't agree with making up mechanics that don't exist and even if you pretended this one did it wouldn't be consistent.

Disregard antifeats as PIS, this leads to another rating freefall for the scaling characters. This is more arbitrary and/or more research intensive, and leads to higher, rigid results for the characters, which might be appreciable to some.

This sounds really stupid.

As said, leave everything Unknown and just do comparative scaling/list any relevant speed feats of their own in that section. That way the reader can come to their own conclusion (You can even leave calcs if you so desire). Personally I prefer this, but people tend to prefer actual ratings so I assume this is the unpopular proposal.

I honestly don't hate this but I don't think people will like this and I wouldn't push for it.

But also you're just ignoring the much more obvious fourth option of "consider the speed feats outliers given there's clear scaling to street tiers here". We don't have to always chase the biggest number, sometimes the more accurate choice is the one that reflects the verse's portrayal and the verse's portrayal is plainly that these people aren't super fast in terms of combat speed. Marvel isn't Dragon Ball where being stronger also makes you faster and there's trillions of showings of high-power character getting surprised or hit by low tiers' attacks.

 

[Excellence616]

• We treat speed as a variable (or functionally variable) for most mainline characters, treating it under an unsaid exhaustion mechanic, this I believe is a proposal getting floated around already? That makes every character's speed freefall to their own feats or if there is a consistency: more concentrated scaling nets, if we apply our usual scrutiny for cross-scale
• Disregard antifeats as PIS, this leads to another rating freefall for the scaling characters. This is more arbitrary and/or more research intensive to justify, and leads to higher, rigid results for the characters, which might be appreciable to some.

I agree with these two.

 

[The_Impress]

I don't agree with making up mechanics that don't exist and even if you pretended this one did it wouldn't be consistent.

I think it's consistent it's just unstated.

I honestly don't hate this but I don't think people will like this and I wouldn't push for it.

I mean I am going to be blunt this is probably the least offensive option, and everyone basically gets what they want. It's unusual and probably feels wrong, but genuinely except writers getting stuck on buzzwords like mach or hypersonic, I have never seen a consistent speed rating for them beyond "> guns/rifles" at best (and even then a lot of prolific writers admit to have scaled them far lower speedwise, Aaron and MacKay I genuinely don't think treat them particularly high speedwise)

 

[Armorchompy]

I think it's consistent it's just unstated.

That's not unstated consistency, it's just normal inconsistency. But also I honestly think you'll basically never see 99% of high tiers (or as this thread kinda bafflingly calls them, "low tiers") actually have super-speed combat/reaction feats, it's just scaling to flight stuff.

I mean I am going to be blunt this is probably the least offensive option, and everyone basically gets what they want. It's unusual and probably feels wrong, but genuinely except writers getting stuck on buzzwords like mach or hypersonic, I have never seen a consistent speed rating for them beyond "> guns/rifles" at best.

I mean I won't oppose it I just don't favor its changes.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I support Armor's bespoke fourth option.

 

[The_Impress]

I support Armor's bespoke fourth option.

thats option 3