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Establishing the Concepts in A Novel Concept | Indexing a new LitRPG Novel

Anyways sorry if I was a bit too harsh with my words and could've gone about it better
It is alright, friend, I do not mind.

For what it's worth this entire subject is very vibes-based, and it would not surprise me if many people had different ideas of what 'popular' and 'notable' meant. I am just one voice- it is possible other staff disagree, or that I could be convinced.
 
I will say that it doesn't really bother me if 99.9% of a given source of fiction isn't notable enough to meet our standards. If there aren't tons of people consuming it, then it isn't notable, no real way around it. Just because a site largely comprises of said fictions, doesn't make any of them more notable.

These numbers are really low. I acknowledge that those consuming these pieces of media seem to be willing to dish out cash in order to support their niche, but all of these do appear to be insanely niche.

I'll take a better look into this later, but I wanted to point out the falsehood of the assumption at work here. It could 100% be that the entirety of RoyalRoad (or another site) is not popular enough to be listed on VSBW.
 
I will say that it doesn't really bother me if 99.9% of a given source of fiction isn't notable enough to meet our standards. If there aren't tons of people consuming it, then it isn't notable, no real way around it. Just because a site largely comprises of said fictions, doesn't make any of them more notable.

These numbers are really low. I acknowledge that those consuming these pieces of media seem to be willing to dish out cash in order to support their niche, but all of these do appear to be insanely niche.

I'll take a better look into this later, but I wanted to point out the falsehood of the assumption at work here. It could 100% be that the entirety of RoyalRoad (or another site) is not popular enough to be listed on VSBW.
To tell you this the first chapter almost certainly has at least 100k views (the minimum requirement) and probably more in excess considering trends of what authors experience on first chapter views compared to their total views. But only authors have access to this statistic so it's hard to tell.
 
It's behind wattpad and webnovel yeah. If it's determined Royal Road as a website is unsuitable for VSBW then so be it, I don't have a particular horse in this race.

But Royal Road is definitely the no. 1 recommendation for entering this niche because no other website really serves that niche (Webnovel is kind of evil and Wattpad is romance focused)
 
It's technically possible that the entire genre of Western web novels as a whole isn't popular enough.
They're certainly far far far less popular than Eastern web novels.
Combined with being a niche self-published type of work already, it would not surprise me.
There are also web novels that are picked up and are officially published and are considered notable enough to them that are less popular than the one in OP and those would circumvent notability requirement entirely as we explicitly allow officially published stuff or pay the toll and be a certain notability
 
There are also web novels that are picked up and are officially published and are considered notable enough to them that are less popular than the one in OP and those would circumvent notability requirement entirely as we explicitly allow officially published stuff or pay the toll and be a certain notability
Well, being officially published is as you said a circumvention.

We're stricter on self-published work. There's also this line: "The use of Wattpad and similar fan work sources is prohibited."
However, it's directly followed by "However, self-published works will also be considered as long as they meet the aforementioned criteria of notability."

I'll admit this is kind of confusing. Does this imply we only consider them if not from a site like Wattpad?
 
Well, being officially published is as you said a circumvention.

We're stricter on self-published work. There's also this line: "The use of Wattpad and similar fan work sources is prohibited."
However, it's directly followed by "However, self-published works will also be considered as long as they meet the aforementioned criteria of notability."

I'll admit this is kind of confusing. Does this imply we only consider them if not from a site like Wattpad?
"Fan work" seems to be exclusive to fanfiction because original web novels by definition arent fan works.
 
That's an interpretation that would definitely makes sense, but the way it's written now is kind of confusing. I may end up making a staff thread about clearing that up.
There's already a staff thread going on about notability stuff but it never went anywhere
 
I think the best next option would be to ask the author himself about the view count for the 1st chapter and if it clears that 100k requirement it should be good to go. But I dunno if that would be allowed
 
I am curious: is this 100,000 views thing formally enshrined? To the best of my knowledge, the only enshrined figure is 1,000,000 views on a YouTube video. I'd believe this is a precedent that was set or whatever (****, I might even have been part of it!), but I don't remember it and would like clarification.
 
I am curious: is this 100,000 views thing formally enshrined? To the best of my knowledge, the only enshrined figure is 1,000,000 views on a YouTube video. I'd believe this is a precedent that was set or whatever (****, I might even have been part of it!), but I don't remember it and would like clarification.
Let me see if I can find it.
 
I am curious: is this 100,000 views thing formally enshrined? To the best of my knowledge, the only enshrined figure is 1,000,000 views on a YouTube video. I'd believe this is a precedent that was set or whatever (****, I might even have been part of it!), but I don't remember it and would like clarification.
Ah here.
I guess it wasnt formally accepted yet since the thread died off. Misremembered a bit
 
I would like to wait for Bambu's evaluation on this, but based on the the thread mentioned by MGQ right above me, while it did not yet get accepted, but for the few of the suggest ones, A Novel Concept seems to fit those requirements?

100,000 views for a single chapter seems rather reasonable, but not in sum total for all the chapters of a story.
Although we don't have concrete numbers yet, but I don' think it is insane to assume the first chapter alone at the very least has above 100k views, especially when majority of stories eventually die down when it comes to views because of later chapters, and the fact that any extra chapter the author adds, it will lower the average views. Not to mention, RoyalRoad doesn't have a "make an account to read" requirement, so someone could just read it with a guest account and not favorite/rate the fic.

About being published and Revenue
As mentioned by other members, I'd assume the reason this fic isn't published yet is due to author's choice, rather than them being unable to, especially when we have series with less views and average views getting published frequently, as shown here. Hell, quite a few of them even get a webtoon.

As for patreon, I also would like to mention that these numbers are currently lower than they usually are because the author is currently on a bit of a hiatus due to problems with the French Government because they are trying to repossess his father's house which he inherited. As such, he has been very busy, and iirc, stopped billing and stuff like that.

That said, I do think not allowing a fic that manages to make enough money for the author to ditch his normal work and focus on full-time writing is a bit weird.

Is it? I thought it was Wattpad. That's at least something I've ever heard of before. Trackers say royalroad.com has had 13M visitors this month, but that wattpad.com has had 118M.
Can you tell me which tracker you have used? Because from my end, it states that Royalroad has around 56M monthly visitors, and 25M of those are in the US, only 2M lower than that of wattpad.

Furthermore, Wattpad, while still being original-fic focused, is known to have a HUGE amount of fanfiction (to the point that reputation stuck with it). So, for Original Fic, Royalroad is definitely very close to it.

Additionally, wasn't the original reason for the notability requirements to stop low-quality works, batteboarding fics, and fics no one heard about at all? If a novel is able to:
1. Make such money that the author is able to live off of it
2. Reach the top of the list frequently on RoyalRoad, which 56M visitors each month
3. Is known in the RoyalRoad/Webnovel part by quite a lot of people and discussed on reddit, and even a few members on this site know about it

I don't see a reason why it should not be allowed?
 
Can you tell me which tracker you have used? Because from my end, it states that Royalroad has around 55M monthly visitors, and 25M of those are in the US, only 2M lower than that of wattpad.
I don't remember, but I also don't think it's particularly relevant. It's clearly in the top percentile of Western web novel sites. I was just responding to the statement that it was #1.
Additionally, wasn't the original reason for the notability requirements to stop low-quality works, batteboarding fics, and fics no one heard about at all? If a novel is able to:
1. Make such money that the author is able to live off of it
2. Reach the top of the list frequently on RoyalRoad, which 56M visitors each month
3. Is known in the RoyalRoad/Webnovel part by quite a lot of people and discussed on reddit, and even a few members on this site know about it
Well, "no one heard about at all" isn't a category we'd be talking about, so that can't really be the consideration in the literal sense.

I think at the very least we would want a verse that has a chance of ten or more people potentially helping out with it. If there's literally three people on the site who have even heard of it, the chance it gets proper support in the long-term is basically zero.
 
I think at the very least we would want a verse that has a chance of ten or more people potentially helping out with it. If there's literally three people on the site who have even heard of it, the chance it gets proper support in the long-term is basically zero.
So we should just delete verses with less than 10 supporters (ok maybe thats not what you really mean but still)? I mean we can apply this logic to many games (especially self-published indie games), LNs, and so on. I don't think we should shift general recognition standards to "recognition by wiki members only". Hell there could be a verse that ticks all notability standards but theres barely anyone on wiki who even knows about it. Does that suddenly make it invalid?

Many obscure verses on this wiki are handled by solo members or very small handful, and I don't really think this is much of a good point if we're saying we should only allow verses that will attract many people already on wiki while we already have verses that only like 1-3 people even bother to revise even in the long term.
 
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So we should just delete verses with less than 10 supporters (ok maybe thats not what you really mean but still)? I mean we can apply this logic to many games (especially self-published indie games), LNs, and so on. I don't think we should shift general recognition standards to "recognition by wiki members only". Hell there could be a verse that ticks all notability standards but theres barely anyone on wiki who even knows about it. Does that suddenly make it invalid?
No, I mean a reasonable chance to even have 10 supporters out there.

Like if there's only two supporters on the website, but it's generally popular outside of the wiki (many such cases), then there's a chance someone joins later who will support it, and there's theoretically a pool of people out there who are knowledgeable even if not here.
 
No, I mean a reasonable chance to even have 10 supporters out there.

Like if there's only two supporters on the website, but it's generally popular outside of the wiki (many such cases), then there's a chance someone joins later who will support it, and there's theoretically a pool of people out there who are knowledgeable even if not here.
That's kinda nebulous and near-impossible to truly gauge beforehand. Just something that would be hard to tell until the page itself was made since only then do people usually get attracted
 
No, I mean a reasonable chance to even have 10 supporters out there.

Like if there's only two supporters on the website, but it's generally popular outside of the wiki (many such cases), then there's a chance someone joins later who will support it, and there's theoretically a pool of people out there who are knowledgeable even if not here.
I mean, how could we know that? Who said there isn't a chance for other people to know about it? RoyalRoad is already popular, and the fact that ~3 people here already know about it despite our low number of users (A lot of verses only have 1-2 supporters btw) says something. Besides, there are many verses who only 1 supporter exists and they are heavily carrying it/making everything.

Honestly, I don't get why we are so stingy with this, when this verse is already decently popular. We're not some high company that requires very popular stuff, we're a powerscaling site that do this for a hobby. This isn't some obscure novel that some guy just made with a few viewers or smth, it's a novel that is followed by god knows how many people, has existed for years, and generates A LOT of money (Already heavily above the obscure novels and low-quality novels we don't want the wiki to be flooded with).

Though if it really doesn't fit despite all of this, well, it is what it is I guess. Though the notability standards really need to be more defined because it is just all over the place.
 
No, I mean a reasonable chance to even have 10 supporters out there.

Like if there's only two supporters on the website, but it's generally popular outside of the wiki (many such cases), then there's a chance someone joins later who will support it, and there's theoretically a pool of people out there who are knowledgeable even if not here.
....?
That's an insane standard ngl man, literally how would we even judge the chance to get ten supporters for a series? What about popular stuff in other languages (That isn't Japanese), or things that people don't tend to vs scale that much?
Heck I have verses I made myself where I'm certain we'd never get ten supports, and I'd be shocked if we even got to five.
 
To further this point I know of multiple novels that got officially published on Webnovel with worse statistics (for context, anything that has the "Translator" and "Editor" sections on their page is something that Qidian (the major chinese webnovel site, of which Webnovel is the english arm of) paid a translator to translate and publish into English on Webnovel)
Permanent Martial Arts (Otherwise known as Eternal Martial Arts in its original Chinese), with 4.9 million views over 1495 chapters, giving an average view count of 2481 people, and 63 reviews
Cultivation! My Augmented Statuses Have Unlimited Duration, with 6 million views over 904 chapters, giving an average view count of 6637 people, and 218 reviews on webnovel
Of course, if I went onto Qidian proper, I could get more statistics, but those statistics don't actually change my point from the last time I checked it to see if I could scale these on-site

I could also go grab the stats on Book Eating Magician, which is a verse that A)We already have on site B)Got Offically Published by/on WuxiaWorld C)Has an official manhwa being published on Kakao D)Got published on fucken paperback, has worse stats than this novel, with 6.2 mill views/downloads over 425 chapters, making for an average 14588 views per chapter, to this novels 33421

Do you understand how utterly absurd it is that we are saying this novel, which has better stats than multiple other officially published novels, doesn't qualify by our notability standards
 
To further this point I know of multiple novels that got officially published on Webnovel with worse statistics (for context, anything that has the "Translator" and "Editor" sections on their page is something that Qidian (the major chinese webnovel site, of which Webnovel is the english arm of) paid a translator to translate and publish into English on Webnovel)
Permanent Martial Arts (Otherwise known as Eternal Martial Arts in its original Chinese), with 4.9 million views over 1495 chapters, giving an average view count of 2481 people, and 63 reviews
Cultivation! My Augmented Statuses Have Unlimited Duration, with 6 million views over 904 chapters, giving an average view count of 6637 people, and 218 reviews on webnovel
Of course, if I went onto Qidian proper, I could get more statistics, but those statistics don't actually change my point from the last time I checked it to see if I could scale these on-site

I could also go grab the stats on Book Eating Magician, which is a verse that A)We already have on site B)Got Offically Published by/on WuxiaWorld C)Has an official manhwa being published on Kakao D)Got published on fucken paperback, has worse stats than this novel, with 6.2 mill views/downloads over 425 chapters, making for an average 14588 views per chapter, to this novels 33421

Do you understand how utterly absurd it is that we are saying this novel, which has better stats than multiple other officially published novels, doesn't qualify by our notability standards
If you mean "officially published" as in, that work is published by a real publishing house and I could buy it on, say, Kindle, then it's irrelevant what the statistics are. We don't care.

If you mean "officially published" as in, Webnovel sites deliberately ported it over, then it doesn't matter what statistics they have in relation to us determining a case; these are not the ideals to strive to. ~6,000 views for a chapter of a work is insanely low! It is absurd to ask us to call that relevant culturally.

We cannot take everything on the internet that has ever been viewed. The wiki is meant to be restricted to things that are basically impactful. If these things are not, then they are not, and that is that.
 
Except the standards for what is "impactful" have repeatedly been shown to be absurdly high and unnecessarily restrictive in their targeting. If these notability standards were applied universally, I'm confident over 90% of the wiki would get deleted. Obviously, that's not going to happen, but then why is it okay to apply absurd and arbitrary standards to these kinds of things alone?

FinePoint has, quite literally, been arguing that because he personally didn't know about the series, then it's obscure. That is beyond ridiculous as an argument, There are youtubers with tens of millions of subscribers that I have never heard of for whatever reason. Does that make them obscure? Of course not, so why are novels making hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars and raking in millions of views in total suddenly "obscure" because one guy hasn't heard about them? Ten supporters is not only a metric far above that of the vast majority of verses on this wiki, but also inherently impossible to gauge without allowing the series on the wiki in the first place. There are tons of verses where you only have one or two dedicated supporters, does that mean all of those should get deleted? That's what is being argued, after all.
 
If you mean "officially published" as in, that work is published by a real publishing house and I could buy it on, say, Kindle, then it's irrelevant what the statistics are. We don't care.
Considering Book Eating Magician is there as something with worse stats than A Novel Concept, something that has been put to paper and gotten a manhwa adaptation, I would absolutely consider it relevant.
Funny you bring up Amazon also considering it is, one of, if not the main publishers for RoyalRoad novels whenever a novel gets popular enough (see for example, Virtuous Sons, which is being sold by Amazon as Kindle Editions right now, with notacibly less stats than A Novel Concept, with 4 million total views and an average view count of 22k)
If you mean "officially published" as in, Webnovel sites deliberately ported it over, then it doesn't matter what statistics they have in relation to us determining a case; these are not the ideals to strive to. ~6,000 views for a chapter of a work is insanely low!
Calling 6000 people small is a wild thing to say but here we are, anyways
This isn't deliberately porting over, this is a parent company paying an outside translator group (the same translator group that translated Lord Of The Mysteries, a series that has a manhua and has an anime, along with several others mind you) to translate a novel they consider to have been popular enough to take money out of their own pocket to effectively publish it on Webnovel. I don't know what else you'd want to call it but publishing, maybe porting. But the point stands that they were considered popular enough for them to do so.
We cannot take everything on the internet that has ever been viewed.
This is not about us asking to be able to index anything that has ever been seen; this is us presenting the fact that these novels have several million views, tens of millions in the case of the specific novel this thread is about, and that there are novels that have had less interest in them both here and overseas that have gotten offical publication or what have you.
It is absurd to ask us to call that relevant culturally.

The wiki is meant to be restricted to things that are basically impactful. If these things are not, then they are not, and that is that.
This, however, pisses me the **** off as to why in the infernal **** our standards would be this, and if so, why is a good 2/3s of the wiki here?
Because trust me when I say that if you went up to a random person about that same portion of the wiki and asked them if they knew it, they would reply in the negative, because most media is by the very nature of things not going to be culturally relevan, whether because of the fact that the average person isn't in the space(s) where these media are actively talked out with acclaim (because mind you, the internet and the spaces within are a fraction of a fraction of a good tens of billions of people seperate through time and space), a simple language barrier, or other factors.

The only things we could index by that standard are multi-million or multi-billion dollar franchises, whose marketing team has enough money put into them to quite literally drown a person, or media that's old enough that they become part of the cultural zeitgeist, such as Lovecraft. So are we going to stop ourselves from indexing the works of Dunsany, because his own work isn't currently culturally relevant, the works of those he's influenced are, but certainly not his own works.
Something similar can be said of such a great number of authors; I could argue that the writer who invented the Dyson sphere and influenced enough of the science fiction field that you couldn't throw a stone in a room with authors of the genre without hitting someone whose works were directly or indirectly influenced by him, if you knew his name beforehand I'd be surprised (It's Olaf Stapledon).
 
You must understand that I'm not trying to argue against you. I sense some level of aggression in your message: please understand that I'm not trying to fight, here. I'm trying to explain things.

If the books are professionally published on Amazon, then they can be used. This clears a lot of the obstacles you're having here.

As for the rest of this. 6,000 people is an insanely small group of people, yes. We're looking to index culturally relevant and significant works. 6,000 people is a small town. Compared to our only existing benchmark of 1,000,000 views, 6,000 is essentially nothing.

These novels have several million views across all chapters. As you say, they average at about 6,000 per chapter, for the one example. When I say tens of millions of people have read Discord, I am not counting a unique read per chapter. These are not novels with millions of unique viewers; rather, the means by which they gather data is intensely skewed.

You are more than welcome to feel upset, should we not want a verse you want to add. But our policies are based on reasonable expectations, and if these LitRPG novels don't meet said policies, then it is what it is. I encourage you to not allow that to upset you; the hobby is simply not worth it.

That said. Your post is not honest. You're arguing our standards exclude works that they simply do not. We automatically allow formally published works. And these works are important enough: your Olaf Stapledon is not even remotely the same as a self-published LitRPG novel with an average of 6,000 views per chapter. Take a moment, cool off, and think about it. I think tensions are high because its being taken personally, but our standards aren't unreasonable.
 
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You must understand that I'm not trying to argue against you. I sense some level of aggression in your message: please understand that I'm not trying to fight, here. I'm trying to explain things.

If the books are professionally published on Amazon, then they can be used. This clears a lot of the obstacles you're having here.

As for the rest of this. 6,000 people is an insanely small group of people, yes. We're looking to index culturally relevant and significant works. 6,000 people is a small town. Compared to our only existing benchmark of 1,000,000 views, 6,000 is essentially nothing.

These novels have several million views across all chapters. As you say, they average at about 6,000 per chapter, for the one example. When I say tens of millions of people have read Discord, I am not counting a unique read per chapter. These are not novels with millions of unique viewers; rather, the means by which they gather data is intensely skewed.

You are more than welcome to feel upset, should we not want a verse you want to add. But our policies are based on reasonable expectations, and if these LitRPG novels don't meet said policies, then it is what it is. I encourage you to not allow that to upset you; the hobby is simply not worth it.

That said. Your post is not honest. You're arguing our standards exclude works that they simply do not. We automatically allow formally published works. And these works are important enough: your Olaf Stapledon is not even remotely the same as a self-published LitRPG novel with an average of 6,000 views per chapter. Take a moment, cool off, and think about it. I think tensions are high because its being taken personally, but our standards aren't unreasonable.
The thing you gave for 100,000 average viewers is wildly unrealistic even for series that make hundreds of thousands to perhaps over a million even if those ones fit other notability criteria like being picked up by a publisher for example. The point is it's just wildly unrealistic even for most top performers since they typically tend to be longform and way more than 100 chapters.

Even when these really popular hundred thousand or million dollar novels get stubbed (chapters removed) the average view count if anything raises since first few chapters that are still kept tend to have a marginally higher view count so it then makes the average higher even if theres less overall viewers. Yet they still dont reach 100k.

The only time you'll be getting those numbers or higher is when you have only around 100ish chapters and even then those are the absolute top performers (The Perfect Run 130 and around 100k, Mother of Learning like 100 and an absurd outlier at 240k).

Should we not just go by first entry basis that we do for everything else? (like a first chapter if its possible to get the numbers or compare to other qualifiers who reach similar numbers)


I would also like to say cultural importance is a strange requirement. A lot of popular qualifying fiction is a sea of slop that wont ever have much importance (like Instant Death and many more LNs). Tons of publishers aren't adding cultural importance either when a lot make it a point to pick up easily digestible slop. We're a power indexing wiki not some historical museum. As long as it's not a literal who and shows a good following for its context, it honestly IMO should be fine, but we're too restrictive for arbitrary reasons.
 
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Bambu, the entire point is the standards are incredibly and provably unreasonable. It has been repeatedly shown to be contradictory with basic common sense regarding reader counts. Your stated standard of 100,000 or 1,000,000 views is something that ******* Marvel and DC would struggle to reach even in better years, to the point that it's flatly unreasonable as a standard. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it when nobody who actually understands this space of writing believes it and several arguments against it have been given, all of which you've dismissed by saying "oh 6000 people isn't that many" which just showcases how you really don't have any meaningful understanding of the space.

Also, cultural relevance has never been a standard and is completely impossible to measure for all but the absolute most prominent examples. If anything, a work having a ton of cultural relevance is a point against it being indexed, just look at Journey To The West or The Divine Comedy and all the arguments they incited.
 
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You must understand that I'm not trying to argue against you. I sense some level of aggression in your message: please understand that I'm not trying to fight, here. I'm trying to explain things.
Okay, sure let me take a step back

Firstly, on the matter of notability
The book is notably more popular within the site it is being released on than several other novels both on and off the site that have been published, with previously posted examples of Virtuous Sons and Book Eating Magician

To show the comparison clearer, A Novel Concept has 14mil views with an average of 33k, it has 14k followers and 5k people that have marked it as a favourite, and has been rated ~3k times, Virtuous Sons has 4mil views with an average of 22k, it has 6.8k followers and 2.5k people that have marked it as a favourite, and has been rated 1.8k ratings, Book Eating Magician (from the stats that I can find of it) has 6.2mil views/downloads over 425 chapters for an average of 14588 views
The gap between them all is stark, with Virtuous Sons having been published officially on and by Amazon to be downloaded and read on Kindle, and Book Eating Magician having gotten translated by WuxiaWorld (who for all intents and purposes, is official publishing, as they are owned by Kakao who is one of the major Korean webmedia sharing sites, in addition to them having to purchase the rights and all to get the media translated), has gotten a manhwa adapation of it's own and printed to paper back (And that we also current have pages for, but that is secondary)

The reason why A Novel Concept is not being actively published by Amazon is not due to a lack of popularity, but instead due to the author's decision not to do so, but we can draw a comparison between it and several other webnovels which have been published in one way or another, which are notably less popular than it, and say that given these other novels, which are notable enough to be seen and then published by a bigger compnay, this novel should then be allowed on a basis of being markedly more popular than them within the spaces that both are viewed.
These novels have several million views across all chapters. As you say, they average at about 6,000 per chapter, for the one example. When I say tens of millions of people have read Discord, I am not counting a unique read per chapter. These are not novels with millions of unique viewers; rather, the means by which they gather data is intensely skewed.
Yes, but the issue with such a comparison is that with webnovel reading sites, you don't really get recommended things in the same vein that you would for something such as youtube or discord, where you enter a home menu and see various recommendations, and if you do, those recommendations are

Instead (from my memory of when I used to more actively read on webnovel, and my current reading of stuff on Ao3), you are mainly given already popular works or works within your own "circle", any form of outside feed into that typically comes through promotions (by Ads or by Authors in a note), which most of the time are ignored on principle, or are ignored because they do not like the summary of the work. I would with confidence say that anywhere from 1 in 10 to 100 people actually click, read, and thus count to the view count of the resulting novel
Webnovel (and prolly Qidian as an extent but I can't stay for certain) due to it's Freemium model (that is, they lock most of the chapters of a work, and require either money or limited resources to unlock the rest over a matter of days, if not months, if not years for novels with over a thousand chapters) provides readers with ways to promote works and attaches rewards to that that those who don't pay can unlock new chapters, of note here is the power stone system, which pushes novels on a ranking and in theory allows works that are well liked to be recommended to more people and what have you, the issue is that most of the time, people will either throw power stones at a work at the top to get their quests done with so they can go back to reading, or they're a paying customer and have no reason to actually vote on works, rather than throw money at the author (which is actually a metric we can measure for webnovel, but it's scuffed and I'm not looking on webnovel to see the conversion rate between USD and a coin)
tldr; Webnovel sites kinda just suck at getting novels, especially new ones (new) viewership, so that count is more weighted against them than for them, with the only things that get recommended or that are newly read being already popular novels for one reason or another
You are more than welcome to feel upset, should we not want a verse you want to add. But our policies are based on reasonable expectations, and if these LitRPG novels don't meet said policies, then it is what it is. I encourage you to not allow that to upset you; the hobby is simply not worth it.

That said. Your post is not honest. You're arguing our standards exclude works that they simply do not. We automatically allow formally published works. And these works are important enough: your Olaf Stapledon is not even remotely the same as a self-published LitRPG novel with an average of 6,000 views per chapter. Take a moment, cool off, and think about it. I think tensions are high because its being taken personally, but our standards aren't unreasonable.
My issue isn't whether or not the verse gets added to be quite honest, my issue is that if "cultural impact" is the measure that we use to include a verse or not then I disagree with that on principle, because the cultural impact is a vague as **** term. Something can only have an impact within it's culture, and cultures are by nature insular things. The internet is then a culture of a culture, and webnovels and their genres are insular to an even higher degree, to the point that something within it's culture could be critically acclaimed as the next best thing since sliced bread, with the entire community agreeing as such, but the moment you take a step outside of the culture, any impact it has just drops off a cliff or is secondary at best.

Figures such as Dunsany or Stapledon are far, far more popular figures than the authors of these novels. I am well aware. The effect they have had continue on to this day, but I'll put it simply, it is only within their fields, because if you go right now and ask a layman if they know either, they would respond in the negative. Hell even if you asked them what a Dyson sphere is, I'd expect that they'd be able to tell you what it is in the vaguest terms or wouldn't be able to answer. If you asked them who Clarke was, all they'd do is probably be able to tell you the quote (if they actually heard who it was from), and if they were old enough, tell you about the 2001 movie, maybe.

Culture is innately deeply insular, and judging things based upon cultural relevance when most people probably have even heard the name Tezuka is absurd. People are naturally lazy and don't wish to go outside of their comfort zones and circles; typically only exposed to things through outside influences, which naturally favours multi-media giants if we wish to measure things by culturally relevant, because they have the money and influence to throw around that said media becomes nigh omnipresent, crossing continental and language barriers (another issue things webmedia faces, as they are typically made within/for a single language which cuts off more than half of the people in the world).

Also I must bring up the 6000 point, as it wasn't for the novel this thread is about to begin with, but I have to say something, as numbers get big or small enough people stop being able to properly comprehend and visualize them, it's why if something terrible happens with a neighbour, we are far more affected than if something like that happened to a thousand people in name a country on the other side of the world, we probably wouldn't even hear that it happened unless it was particularly terrible, people vs statistics and all that. But 6000 people are a lot, there are more than 6000 people in your neighbourhood, and I'd nearly put money on that, 6000 people could quite easily overfill a theater, imagine that, enough people to fill your neighbourhood, enough people that that can't even all fit in a theatre coming back to watch or read the same thing a hundred times over, a thousand times over, now imagine that multiplied by five and a half times to give us our 33000 people per chapter on average, enough that you couldn't ethically fit them all into a theatre, enough that a neighbourhood would genuinely start to resemble the Kawloon Walled City at that point, which had 35000 residents at it's peak.

6000 is a lot, 33000 is insane
 
....?
That's an insane standard ngl man, literally how would we even judge the chance to get ten supporters for a series? What about popular stuff in other languages (That isn't Japanese), or things that people don't tend to vs scale that much?
Heck I have verses I made myself where I'm certain we'd never get ten supports, and I'd be shocked if we even got to five.
That game was published by a real publisher that has published many licensed games from popular franchises, then went on to become a best seller and win awards.

If you see how we'd struggle to get support for even that, then imagine how hard it would be for something even more obscure and perhaps you can see what I'm trying to say.
 
That game was published by a real publisher that has published many licensed games from popular franchises, then went on to become a best seller and win awards.

If you see how we'd struggle to get support for even that, then imagine how hard it would be for something even more obscure and perhaps you can see what I'm trying to say.
Okay but like, there is no way we are getting ten supporters for it unless I artificially force people into it.
That metric is just wack.
 
Okay but like, there is no way we are getting ten supporters for it unless I artificially force people into it.
That metric is just wack.
Okay, I may have picked 10 just because my OCD liked the number.

My real point is just that it becomes harder and harder to even hope to have significant support for a verse as it becomes more obscure, and so after a certain point it just becomes a liability that we can't guarantee the accuracy of.
 
Okay, I may have picked 10 just because my OCD liked the number.

My real point is just that it becomes harder and harder to even hope to have significant support for a verse as it becomes more obscure, and so after a certain point it just becomes a liability that we can't guarantee the accuracy of.
Okay but like
We have a ton of verses nobody is disputing their validity to be on the site where the amount of supporters is minuscule, how many supports something has or can have is clearly not a valid metric at all.
 
My real point is just that it becomes harder and harder to even hope to have significant support for a verse as it becomes more obscure, and so after a certain point it just becomes a liability that we can't guarantee the accuracy of.
That's just a bad point, though? The issue with having a low number of supporters isn't if the verse is reliable or not, that issue falls on the staff who evaluate matters. What a low number of supporters does is make it all dependent on a single person, and thus, the ability of that person to develop the pages slows to a crawl.

If I felt like throwing my head into a brick wall, I could completely decide to index something like DCSS. The only issue would be the speed at which I can actually do matters and how fast staff would evaluate and respond to the resulting thread(s). Is something like that popular enough to be indexed? Absolutely. Would you be able to find multiple people fully able and willing to index it without forcing them into said matters? Probably not. I doubt anyone who isn't in the community already would have heard of DCSS, Tales of Maj'Eyal, Ancient Domains of Mystery, or Caves of Qud, but if you're in the community, that's a fucken stone's throw to find someone.
 
The thing you gave for 100,000 average viewers is wildly unrealistic even for series that make hundreds of thousands to perhaps over a million even if those ones fit other notability criteria like being picked up by a publisher for example. The point is it's just wildly unrealistic even for most top performers since they typically tend to be longform and way more than 100 chapters.

Even when these really popular hundred thousand or million dollar novels get stubbed (chapters removed) the average view count if anything raises since first few chapters that are still kept tend to have a marginally higher view count so it then makes the average higher even if theres less overall viewers. Yet they still dont reach 100k.

The only time you'll be getting those numbers or higher is when you have only around 100ish chapters and even then those are the absolute top performers (The Perfect Run 130 and around 100k, Mother of Learning like 100 and an absurd outlier at 240k).

Should we not just go by first entry basis that we do for everything else? (like a first chapter if its possible to get the numbers or compare to other qualifiers who reach similar numbers)


I would also like to say cultural importance is a strange requirement. A lot of popular qualifying fiction is a sea of slop that wont ever have much importance (like Instant Death and many more LNs). Tons of publishers aren't adding cultural importance either when a lot make it a point to pick up easily digestible slop. We're a power indexing wiki not some historical museum. As long as it's not a literal who and shows a good following for its context, it honestly IMO should be fine, but we're too restrictive for arbitrary reasons.
If 100,000 views is unrealistic for an entire genre, then we return to the previous position: it is entirely possible that this entire genre is not widely known enough to be on the wiki.

I spoke on the other thread, and I'd be very content with a first entry basis, but I'd want that higher than 100,000. My proposal was 250,000. Which is still pretty low!

It is not, really. Even your slop can be relevant and important to a significant number of people. That's all we're really looking at. "Is this a page that a significant amount of people might know about and recognize?" All of this is a means of determining this. For LitRPGs, the way you guys present it, it seems like the answer is "probably not".
 
Okay but like
We have a ton of verses nobody is disputing their validity to be on the site where the amount of supporters is minuscule, how many supports something has or can have is clearly not a valid metric at all.
I feel like this is more of a systemic failing.

Are we not meant to delete a verse or at least deprecate it if it's become severely outdated and there's no support for it?
 
If 100,000 views is unrealistic for an entire genre, then we return to the previous position: it is entirely possible that this entire genre is not widely known enough to be on the wiki.

I spoke on the other thread, and I'd be very content with a first entry basis, but I'd want that higher than 100,000. My proposal was 250,000. Which is still pretty low!

It is not, really. Even your slop can be relevant and important to a significant number of people. That's all we're really looking at. "Is this a page that a significant amount of people might know about and recognize?" All of this is a means of determining this. For LitRPGs, the way you guys present it, it seems like the answer is "probably not".
Note this is 100k AVERAGE you want which requires significantly more views than 100k or more on the first chapter. Not even those with over a million on first chapter (the requirement for a single youtube video to index the entire series) are gonna be getting that 100k average. I think this just means you have a skewed perception of what is significant or notable. But you could say the opposite to me since this is also perspective based.
 
Note this is 100k AVERAGE which requires significantly more views than 100k or more on the first chapter. Not even those with over a million on first chapter (the requirement for youtube videos) are gonna be getting that 100k average. I think this just means you have a skewed perception of what is significant or notable. But you could say the opposite to me since this is also perspective based.
Again. I'm fine with that first chapter figure. I just don't think it should be as low as 100k. As I said, I'd be content with 250k.

When I sent out the 100k average figure, I did so because I could conceive of a verse with a lot of active readers (perhaps less than 250,000), but still has a lot of people that actually keep reading. I would consider that more significant than a work that has 500,000 views on chapter one, but only 5,000 views on chapter fifty, and would be fine with allowing it. But this seems to be neither.
 
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