My Little Pony should be just Low 1-C

[StrymULTRA]

Huh... pretty much every MLP supporter and other mods so far agreed with me regarding why this chain is equivalent to n1, and did not "understand" you, then it's a you problem, lol. This kind of narcisism is not really appreciated ya know.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

If they explained better

 

[Robot972]

I'm a little confused. Where does the claim that each universe has infinite ponies come from

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm a little confused. Where does the claim that each universe has infinite ponies come from

I did not say that, I said that every multiverse has infinite ponies.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Although the grid you made does seem a bit misleading and weirdly made since it doesnt fully capture the true extent of our scenario, its manageable.
ur diagram is presupposing that each universe is an infinite path, even though its not. Even if we appeal to ur understanding you blatantly index universes with finite labels. which suggests its countable

What they gave is like, the text book definition of what an Uncountable set is.

 

[Robot972]

I did not say that, I said that every multiverse has infinite ponies.

By "every multiverse" are you refering to the hallways?

 

[Hellscream]

That proof is correct, but it only applies to sets of infinite sequences.

The issue is that what you've described so far looks like finite branching that keeps going forever, not actual infinite-length paths. Labels like 1, 1.1, 1.1.1, etc. are still finite sequences, even if the process continues indefinitely, and the set of all finite sequences is still countable.

Cantor's diagonal argument only applies if individual paths are actually infinite in length (like true infinite decimals or binary sequences). So before that proof applies here, you'd need to show that infinite-length chains actually exist in the structure, not just that branching keeps happening.

Edit: either way, i don't care that much about this thread.

 

[StrymULTRA]

By "every multiverse" are you refering to the hallways?

Yeah, including also the "base multiverse" from where these hallways all generate from.

What they gave is like, the text book definition of what an Uncountable set is.

Man I love these 90s websites (def. gotta be there on new cosmology blog).

 

[StrymULTRA]

Cantor's diagonal argument only applies if individual paths are actually infinite in length (like true infinite decimals or binary sequences). So before that proof applies here, you'd need to show that infinite-length chains actually exist in the structure, not just that branching keeps happening.

It does exist by the fact that there is not just a single pony that makes all of these branches, but infinite ponies already do exist in the base multiverse, though.

Ik what Qawself above said is evidence too, but wanted to make this clear.

 

[Hellscream]

It does exist by the fact that there is not just a single pony that makes all of these branches, but infinite ponies already do exist in the base multiverse, though.

Ik what Qawself above said is evidence too, but wanted to make this clear.

This does not really address the key issue, though.

Even an infinite number of ponies can result only in infinite width; it will never have infinite depth. The whole point of Cantor’s proof was infinite-length chains, rather than infinite number of starts of chains.

Even with each step adding another finite-level branch to the end (as 1 → 1.1 → 1.1.1 → etc.), this still results in finite-length chains and thus in countability of the set of branches in consideration.

Hence, the true question is whether any particular chain ever goes on for infinity.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Even an infinite number of ponies can result only in infinite width; it will never have infinite depth. The whole point of Cantor’s proof was infinite-length chains, rather than infinite number of starts of chains.

lol

Even with each step adding another finite-level branch to the end (as 1 → 1.1 → 1.1.1 → etc.), this still results in finite-length chains and thus in countability of the set of branches in consideration.

Hence, the true question is whether any particular chain ever goes on for infinity.

What they gave is like, the text book definition of what an Uncountable set is.

 

[Hellscream]

lol

 

[Cipher72]

lol

Umm I don't know jack about the verse so pardon me for speaking out of turn but you aren't understanding what Hell is trying to say.
The sequence Rein mentioned presupposes that the chain continues on Infinitely i.e Infinite depth

U1: 1 → 1.1 → 1.1.1 → 1.1.1.1 → …
U2: 1 → 1.2 → 1.2.1 → 1.2.1.1 → …
U3: 2 → 2.1 → 2.1.1 → 2.1.1.1 → …
U4: 1 → 1.1 → 1.1.2 → 1.1.2.1 → …

U1 extends Infinitely and there's Infinite U as In U={1,2,3,4....∞}
What everyone is asking you to prove is that this presupposition is warranted in this case as in U1 actually extends Infinitely and U contains Infinite elements.

Cantor's diagonal argument only applies if individual paths are actually infinite in length (like true infinite decimals or binary sequences). So before that proof applies here, you'd need to show that infinite-length chains actually exist in the structure, not just that branching keeps happening.

Again I don't know jack about the verse so yea...
I just felt like there was a confusion.

 

[StrymULTRA]

U1 extends Infinitely and there's Infinite U as In U={1,2,3,4....∞}
What everyone is asking you to prove is that this presupposition is warranted in this case as in U1 actually extends Infinitely and U contains Infinite elements.

That is not an issue related to what infinity^infinity is, it's more an issue of the verse about whether the ponies in the infinite hallways also have their own version of that hallway and so on, something that's already on discussion.

 

[Phoenks]

Btw if you got 4 staff agreements why is this still going?

 

[Robot972]

I'll be honest, I think infinite dream loop requires too much extrapolation to be viable. But beyond that, I really don't buy dream world or storyworld characters possessing a mindscape in the first place, much less a hallway.

Storyworld characters are the easiest to address. Simply putting it, they are lines of text that require magic to be given physical form. Even when dragged into the real world, they don't stop acting as they would in their story so I'd frankly be willing to say they're no more sapient than a chat bot uploaded to a robot body. Beyond that, there's no reason they would have a hallway. They do not possess infinite pasts, presents, or futures like real world beings do. Everything they are and ever will be is written on that page, unless specifically altered via magic.

And this goes as far as storyworld itself being treated as an infinite multiverse. Nothing exists beyond what is written on paper. Even in a story about exploring space, the only thing that exists is what's described, inherently making the worlds less than universe-sized.


The dream world faces similar issues. The Pony of Shadows is the sole exception to dream entities demonstrating sapience, but he's easily explained by the fact it was Stygian's dream Luna was visiting, and therefore also the Pony of Shadows' dream as they are one in the same. The literal only other dream entity you could argue being sapient is the Tantabus, but even it is only following the rules which were set upon it. It's not thinking beyond that base function.

When it comes to hallways, there's 0 reason to assume a dream is capable of dreaming. The entire purpose of the hallway's infinite dreams is that each explores a specific past/present/future. By their very nature they are not branching beyond that

 

[StrymULTRA]

Btw if you got 4 staff agreements why is this still going?

To make a new cosmology blog + dealing with the Storyworld stuff.

Plus Qawself before said that he'd like a confirmation for the ponies in the dreams to also make their own hallways.

 

[Cipher72]

something that's already on discussion.

Yes that's exactly what Hell is asking proof for I believe.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Then say that in simplier terms instead of making it look like a math problem instead of a verse problem lol.

Anyway, regarding this:

I'll be honest, I think infinite dream loop requires too much extrapolation to be viable. But beyond that, I really don't buy dream world or storyworld characters possessing a mindscape in the first place, much less a hallway.

Storyworld characters are the easiest to address. Simply putting it, they are lines of text that require magic to be given physical form. Even when dragged into the real world, they don't stop acting as they would in their story so I'd frankly be willing to say they're no more sapient than a chat bot uploaded to a robot body. Beyond that, there's no reason they would have a hallway. They do not possess infinite pasts, presents, or futures like real world beings do. Everything they are and ever will be is written on that page, unless specifically altered via magic.

And this goes as far as storyworld itself being treated as an infinite multiverse. Nothing exists beyond what is written on paper. Even in a story about exploring space, the only thing that exists is what's described, inherently making the worlds less than universe-sized.


The dream world faces similar issues. The Pony of Shadows is the sole exception to dream entities demonstrating sapience, but he's easily explained by the fact it was Stygian's dream Luna was visiting, and therefore also the Pony of Shadows' dream as they are one in the same. The literal only other dream entity you could argue being sapient is the Tantabus, but even it is only following the rules which were set upon it. It's not thinking beyond that base function.

When it comes to hallways, there's 0 reason to assume a dream is capable of dreaming. The entire purpose of the hallway's infinite dreams is that each explores a specific past/present/future. By their very nature they are not branching beyond that

It was already said here something:

I'm a little late, but essentially each doorway leads to a different choice/future/timeline. All choices, which would include stuff like Luna herself delving into a person's dreams, and Infinite Hallways... like she did with Discord. She could have just as easily chosen to go to another pony's Infinite Hallway, like Celestia's, or Twilight's, or anyone's. It's something she has had experience with, and even points out that everyone has one. This choice to walk into Discord's dreams and show him the Infinite Hallway, would just itself be included as another doorway there, and the Luna within this future would also have her own Infinite Hallway where this choice is just a doorway there, and so on and so forth forever. These choices are actual worlds, with actual beings that would also dream, since Luna exists within them to moderate their dreams and so on

 

[Robot972]

I never disagreed with each pony having an infinite hallway. I just don't think there's any evidence that dream entities, who fundamentally do not exist beyond the specific dream's set of events, have their own infinite hallway

 

[Vesxpura]

What they gave is like, the text book definition of what an Uncountable set is.

uhh, i didnt really say it wasent? i dont really get what ur trying to say here, i mean i literally said a few posts later that what reiner showed was indeed an uncountable set.

If a single universe was an infinite path just like how Reiner made the diagram

but that wasent the problem nor was it the point of contention. The point of contention was whether what was described actually qualifies for whats being argued/explained.

Huh... pretty much every MLP supporter and other mods so far agreed with me regarding why this chain is equivalent to n1, and did not "understand" you, then it's a you problem, lol. This kind of narcisism is not really appreciated ya know.

a majority of people agreeing with something doesnt make it right dude, how many times am i gonna explain this. the mlp supporter or the mod could very well have just made a mistake, or isnt entirely knowledgeable on such a topic which is completely fine.

And for reference, if they didnt "understand" my argument, they wouldve simply asked me to elaborate, just like how finepoint did at the beginning, but notice how no mod has done this as of yet excluding that one incident. Ive essentially debunked ur chain being N1 in 2 different ways. If the mods still decide to agree then thats on them not me.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

uhh, i didnt really say it wasent? i dont really get what ur trying to say here, i mean i literally said a few posts later that what reiner showed was indeed an uncountable set.

but that wasent the problem nor was it the point of contention. The point of contention was whether what was described actually qualifies for whats being argued/explained.


a majority of people agreeing with something doesnt make it right dude, how many times am i gonna explain this. the mlp supporter or the mod could very well have just made a mistake, or isnt entirely knowledgeable on such a topic which is completely fine.

And for reference, if they didnt "understand" my argument, they wouldve simply asked me to elaborate, just like how finepoint did at the beginning, but notice how no mod has done this as of yet excluding that one incident. Ive essentially debunked ur chain being N1 in 2 different ways. If the mods still decide to agree then thats on them not me.

Question: isnt this whole thing inifinte amount of 4D spaces ?

 

[JJSliderman]

I buy every pony having their own infinite hallway. I buy every door in those hallways leading to another infinite hallway. What I’m more on the fence about, are those branches continuing infinitely, the only source for that seems to be Luna saying “there’s always a hallway”, which seems a little vague, like do we know she has gone through an infinite chain of door checking to confirm that.

 

[MunchkinGuy]

I buy every pony having their own infinite hallway. I buy every door in those hallways leading to another infinite hallway. What I’m more on the fence about, are those branches continuing infinitely, the only source for that seems to be Luna saying “there’s always a hallway”, which seems a little vague, like do we know she has gone through an infinite chain of door checking to confirm that.

People are using mathematical jargon like crazy in this thread, when I just think having a simpler to read explanation fits more. I do agree with Low 1-C and PonePoster's summary, the best one I've seen for this verse I'm not a fan of.

But I think an explanation put somewhere on the page should be "Choices are quite literally an element of the cosmology that exist beyond the structure of 2-A multiverses, and create a Low 1-C equivalent structure with an even greater amount of multiverses."

I think that has been proven, although exact mathematics for that do need to be decided on.

 

[StrymULTRA]

but that wasent the problem nor was it the point of contention. The point of contention was whether what was described actually qualifies for whats being argued/explained.

If you made this clear from the start instead of spamming mathematical terms we could've avoided this whole discussion.

You were the one attacking everyone's explanation by constantly repeating "none of this is uncountable" or "it's just additive or multiplicative, not exponential", so I indeed am calling you out on that.

a majority of people agreeing with something doesnt make it right dude, how many times am i gonna explain this. the mlp supporter or the mod could very well have just made a mistake, or isnt entirely knowledgeable on such a topic which is completely fine.

And for reference, if they didnt "understand" my argument, they wouldve simply asked me to elaborate, just like how finepoint did at the beginning, but notice how no mod has done this as of yet excluding that one incident. Ive essentially debunked ur chain being N1 in 2 different ways. If the mods still decide to agree then thats on them not me.

First you say that you gotta "wait for mods", then "mods are all wrong".

Imma be fr this "woe is me" attitude is so annoying. The actual opposition thus far is questioning whether the ponies in these alternate futures in the hallway also have their own hallways, not whatever you are doing.

But I think an explanation put somewhere on the page should be "Choices are quite literally an element of the cosmology that exist beyond the structure of 2-A multiverses, and create a Low 1-C equivalent structure with an even greater amount of multiverses."

I think that has been proven, although exact mathematics for that do need to be decided on.

People already do have clear the mathematics behind why it's Low 1-C (aka @Reiner04's post), it's if the verse actually follows it to the letter what's in contentious.

 

[Robo432343]

Disagree with Vesxpura FRA

 

[StrymULTRA]

Disagree with Vesxpura FRA

Bro killed him twice.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Disagree with Vesxpura FRA

What

 

[Vesxpura]

Disagree with Vesxpura FRA

peak mentioned. also ur unjustified in disagreeing
i would make another one but theres no point if the contentions are literally just "why is tier 0, tier 0"

Bro killed him twice.

in what way. the thread didnt end because i was proven wrong, it was for a completely different reason. Just like how as of yet in this thread, i havent been proven wrong. if someone does then thats great ill back down but thats only IF that happens.

If you made this clear from the start instead of spamming mathematical terms we could've avoided this whole discussion.

You were the one attacking everyone's explanation by constantly repeating "none of this is uncountable" or "it's just additive or multiplicative, not exponential", so I indeed am calling you out on that.

Clearly havent read a single one of my refutations but ok.

First you say that you gotta "wait for mods", then "mods are all wrong".

??? i never said all the mods are wrong, im saying they CAN be wrong. pls track

Imma be fr this "woe is me" attitude is so annoying. The actual opposition thus far is questioning whether the ponies in these alternate futures in the hallway also have their own hallways, not whatever you are doing.

And what im doing is assuming everything you said to be true, im not questioning the evidence and yet i cant seem to come to the same conclusion as you because ur argument is just non sequitar.

People already do have clear the mathematics behind why it's Low 1-C, it's if the verse actually follows it to the letter what's in contentious.

Ive already addressed why their "mathematics" behind it is wrong, and theyve yet to respond to my contentions. this is the case for all of the mods/admins as of yet except for a few. None of them countered what ive said so far.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Clearly havent read a single one of my refutations but ok.

Me not agreeing with you is not the same as me not reading.

Ive already addressed why their "mathematics" behind it is wrong, and theyve yet to respond to my contentions. this is the case for all of the mods/admins as of yet except for a few. None of them countered what ive said so far.

The few people who agreed with you actually gave genuine points on why they think the OP is wrong by using in-verse concerns without spamming "math larping", in your terms.

I think the discussion about this is over, and the actual focus of the thread should be about whether the ponies in the alternate futures of the hallways also do have their own hallways, as anything else is just beating over a dead pony.

 

[Vesxpura]

I think the discussion about this is over, and the actual focus of the thread should be about whether the ponies in the alternate futures of the hallways also do have their own hallways, as anything else is just beating over a dead pony.

Its not over because even if the ponies in the hallways do have their own hallways, it still wouldnt qualify which was my whole argument. so theres no point talking about it, its completely redundant, if you read my arguments you couldve came to this conclusion by urself and not by me telling you.

Also can you just stop with ur bs, you just keep twisting my words and my arguments just because you cant properly respond to it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Its not over because even if the ponies in the hallways do have their own hallways, it still wouldnt qualify which was my whole argument. so theres no point talking about it, its completely redundant, if you read my arguments you couldve came to this conclusion by urself and not by me telling you.

You quite literally have 3 staff telling otherwise lol.

Also can you just stop with ur bs, you just keep twisting my words and my arguments just because you cant properly respond to it.

 

[Vesxpura]

You quite literally have 3 staff telling otherwise lol.

??? i literally asked them to justify why they think that and they havent as of yet. genuine tracking demon.
ill spell it out for you, justification means to have good reasoning as to why you think something is that way. if they dont have justification, that means they have no good reasoning as to why they think a cosmology as described qualifies for a N1 quantity of anything

 

[Vesxpura]

if you guys keep going back and forth we're going to have 10 pages and no staff would want to evaluate that

It concluded a while ago, i cant change mod votes even if they arent justified in that vote.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Literally one of the things that you said wasn't an uncountable set was said from Qawself above that it indeed is with an external non-powerscaling source. That's already enough to seal the deal, and you're keeping to spam this lol.

uhh, i didnt really say it wasent? i dont really get what ur trying to say here, i mean i literally said a few posts later that what reiner showed was indeed an uncountable set.

Which you've weirdly admitted that it is an uncountable set???? So what are you even argiung lmfao

 

[Vesxpura]

Which you've weirdly admitted that it is an uncountable set???? So what are you even argiung lmfao

tracking demon, i said reiners diagram was an uncountable set. not that the diagram accurately represented the cosmology, ive literally already said this mutliple times. this is genuine proof u havent read/comprehended anything ive said

 

[StrymULTRA]

tracking demon, i said reiners diagram was an uncountable set. not that the diagram accurately represented the cosmology, ive literally already said this mutliple times. this is genuine proof u havent read/comprehended anything ive said

Or you just did not make the point clear enough.

Regardless, this bickering has gone indeed long enough. I'll leave the space to the actual supporters to continue, as this is going nowhere.

 

[PonePoster]

I never disagreed with each pony having an infinite hallway. I just don't think there's any evidence that dream entities, who fundamentally do not exist beyond the specific dream's set of events, have their own infinite hallway

I buy every pony having their own infinite hallway. I buy every door in those hallways leading to another infinite hallway. What I’m more on the fence about, are those branches continuing infinitely, the only source for that seems to be Luna saying “there’s always a hallway”, which seems a little vague, like do we know she has gone through an infinite chain of door checking to confirm that.

It's a logical conclusion. Since all choices and all futures exist with the Infinite Hallway, naturally Luna's decision to explore Discord's is already a future/doorway there. This "Dream Luna" therefore can explore this "Dream Infinite Hallway" as she does the normal one, and look within any "Dream Doorway" within, and since that is possible then it just goes on, forever. Luna exists within these futures, and her whole duty is to monitor dreams, that these "dream" ponies have, etc

Besides, again, the entities in dreams do exist, and are tangible. Dreams themselves are whole physical spaces that ponies can just go to physically

 

[JJSliderman]

If Low 1-C is acceptable based on each door in the infinite hallway branching out into another set of infinite doors, which all branch out into another set of infinite doors, for an indeterminate amount of repetitions, then a flat Low 1-C sounds fine. If the amount of repetitions of the above cycle has to be infinite outright, then I’m more erring on possibly Low 1-C.

 

[Vesxpura]

If Low 1-C is acceptable based on each door in the infinite hallway branching out into another set of infinite doors, which all branch out into another set of infinite doors, for an indeterminate amount of repetitions, then a flat Low 1-C sounds fine. If the amount of repetitions of the above cycle has to be infinite outright, then I’m more erring on possibly Low 1-C.

the latter