My Little Pony should be just Low 1-C

[StrymULTRA]

Going off this thread, I have no idea why 2-A is still there.

The amount of universes shown by the Infinite Hallway is not just an Infinite x Infinite process, which would indeed still be 2-A, but it's an Infinite^Infinite process, which is Low 1-C on the other hand, for the following reasons:

• There is an infinite number of possible selves across infinite universes
• Every pony can make a dream, which contains the infinite hallway, which leads to infinite futures based on that pony's possible actions, with these being worlds that are fully separated that do not interact.
• The ponies in each of these alternate universes is also with its own mind, meaning it also has dreams, and thus its own Infinite Hallway, and so on.

This basically means that while there are infinite universes, each of them has infinite ponies, and each of them generates infinite universes, each of them also having infinite ponies, with also their own Infinite Hallway, and so on and on.

This not just infinity multiplying itself infinitely (given that's already done by a single reality having infinite ponies, which themselves make infinite realities each), but it's doing this process an infinite amount of times as there's not really an end to when a pony generates the hallway, making up effectively an infinite^infinite chain of universes. As we already know, n^infinity always equals to uncountable infinity (evidence being here and here), and such an amount of universes is Low 1-C:

Low 1-C: Low Complex Multiverse level​

Characters or objects who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy higher-dimensional structures that are one uncountably infinite level above Low 2-C structures. In ordinary distribution, this corresponds to R^5 (5-dimensional real coordinate space).

Equivalently, this tier can be reached by affecting/creating/destroying/embodying an uncountably infinite number of universes (More specifically, as many universes as there are real numbers).

We do already grant Low 1-C off the same principle, an example being Transformers where every universe spawns infinite universes for every possible choice, with the new universes also spawning their own infinite universes, leading to also an Infinite^Infinite chain (which is ironic given that both MLP and TF have IDW comics and a crossover there lol).

The Storyworld stuff, going by just Princess Celestia's page however is genuinely just a nothingburger. By the scans there it only looks like that the place sees the other universes as pieces of fiction, but so does Earth-Prime in DC comics with the main 52 Earths, and there's also no real hint of Storyworld being superior to these fictional universes to even warrant a Low 1-C on its own, given that we have clear rules on this, and it'd make these universes 11-C if taken at face value, given that it still looks on par with the main reality.

Plus, given that the cosmology blog is indeed dated (it does not even include Low 1-C despite it being in the profiles lol), I think that efforts in making a new one should be made in the the thread.

Also, happy easter.

Staff Tally​

Agree: 2.5 (@Reiner04, @FinePoint [as a Possibly] and @DarkDragonMedeus)

Neutral: 1 (@Qawsedf234 [agrees on the basis for infinite^infinite universes being Low 1-C, unsure whether the verse actually does follow an infinite chain of multiverses])

Disagree: 0

 

[Thanganimator]

I don't understand anything about Tier 1, but I agree.

 

[MrKerf]

That checks out, agree.

Happy Easter.

 

[Spinoirr]

I agree

 

[Spinoirr]

Here is the updated MLP cosmology blog:

My Little Pony Cosmology

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[StrymULTRA]

Here is the updated MLP cosmology blog:

My Little Pony Cosmology

vsbattles.fandom.com

As i said, it's hella dated given it still uses the old R>F stuff and the Storyworld on its own doesn't really give anything.

It definitely deserves a section but nothing about being a higher tier.

Plus some wordings such as why the chain of dreams is Low 1-C needs to be reworked as it's definitely rough and is not the best.

 

[Vesxpura]

Disagree with the argument presented for Low 1-C. It only "seems" to qualify at first glance. not under scrutiny. Theres also many things wrong with the arguments basis itself.

 

[FinePoint]

Disagree with the argument presented for Low 1-C. It only "seems" to qualify at first glance. not under scrutiny. Theres also many things wrong with the arguments basis itself.

Could you elaborate, please?

 

[Thermor]

This does seem like an infinity x infinity x infinity... x infinity but not really uncountable. Uncountable infinity is an infinity that is unmeasurable by normal logic standards.

 

[Vesxpura]

Could you elaborate, please?

Yeah,
The argument for low 1-C goes like this. Infinite universes -> each self dreams of the infinite hallway -> Each door in the hallway has its own universe -> with its own ponies -> cycle repeats.
And according to the OP this results in infinity ^ infinity universes.
However it doesnt work like that, because as shown in the scans, each door(choice) represents a completed universe. and this follows for every universe. this is literally just a union of countable sets(which results in another countable set). it doesnt qualify because its not an infinite sequence of choices by itself.

The rest of the argument can be chalked up to it being infinity * infinity. as there are infinite ponies in infinite universes

Heres an analogy to get my point across:
If we look at the set of all real numbers. we know there can be numbers like pi(3.141592653...) which is an infinite decimal number now each decimal can be chosen from a number between 0 and 9. and because of this There are an infinite amount of these choices. Therefore each infinite decimal number itself is an infinite sequence of digits. and the collection of of this is set is uncountably infinite.

If we map this out across mlp, each door universe would need to encode an infinite amount of choices in the hallway. Which it doesnt do. The whole point of higher infinities is to include things that are relatively "larger" in a sense. not just different combinations of the same infinite thing.

The OP also seems to overgeneralize cantors formula. n^infinity only results in aleph 1 if n is a number greater than 2. Its the reason why the set of real numbers( 10 ^ infinity) qualifies and 1 ^ infinity doesnt. While it does address the misconception that its not arguing infinity * infinity, thats not entirely true as ive shown here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This does seem like an infinity x infinity x infinity... x infinity but not really uncountable. Uncountable infinity is an infinity that is unmeasurable by normal logic standards.

...this is literally Infinity^Infinity, which is uncountable. 2^aleph-0 = aleph-1.

The argument for low 1-C goes like this. Infinite universes -> each self dreams of the infinite hallway -> Each door in the hallway has its own universe -> with its own ponies -> cycle repeats.
And according to the OP this results in infinity ^ infinity universes.
However it doesnt work like that, because as shown in the scans, each door(choice) represents a completed universe. and this follows for every universe. this is literally just a union of countable sets(which results in another countable set). it doesnt qualify because its not an infinite sequence of choices by itself.

But it is? 2^infinity = uncountable infinity already, so why wouldn't infinity^infinity?

The OP also seems to overgeneralize cantors formula. n^infinity only results in aleph 1 if n is a number greater than 2. Its the reason why the set of real numbers( 10 ^ infinity) qualifies and 1 ^ infinity doesnt. While it does address the misconception that its not arguing infinity * infinity, thats not entirely true as ive shown here.

You'd be right if not for the fact that we do not deal with a number less than 2 here, but already with infinity given that the start is literally infinity given that the MLP cosmology already starts with a 2-A multiverse without the dream stuff.

Transformers is also Low 1-C already under this basis too, so.

 

[Vesxpura]

...this is literally Infinity^Infinity, which is uncountable. 2^aleph-0 = aleph-1.

But it is? 2^infinity = uncountable infinity already, so why wouldn't infinity^infinity?

ur assuming its infinity ^ infinity, which is uncountably infinite, but its not the case here, even though i just disproved it. Ive shown you why its not exponentiation. I literally even gave the scenario where it WOULD be infinity ^ infinity. Like dude, i layed it all out, its just dependent on you to read them.

Transformers is also Low 1-C already under this basis too, so.

Appealing to something wrong doesnt make you right
Also unless you show these scenarios are isomorphic, it really doesnt matter.

 

[StrymULTRA]

ur assuming its infinity ^ infinity, which is uncountably infinite, but its not the case here, even though i just disproved it. Ive shown you why its not exponentiation. I literally even gave the scenario where it WOULD be infinity ^ infinity. Like dude, i layed it all out, its just dependent on you to read them.

You just gave an explanation on why stuff that's less than 2^infinity is not uncountable, lol.

I literally even gave the scenario where it WOULD be infinity ^ infinity.

If we map this out across mlp, each door universe would need to encode an infinite amount of choices in the hallway.

If you mean this, it is literally the case. Every door contains ponies which on their own generate infinite choices due to them also having their own hallways.

Appealing to something wrong doesnt make you right
Also unless you show these scenarios are isomorphic, it really doesnt matter.

I literally did link into the OP though. Though it namedrops uncountable infinity but it'd still qualify without it.

 

[Vesxpura]

You just gave an explanation on why stuff that's less than 2^infinity is not uncountable, lol.

did you even read my point , its either you didnt read it, or you couldnt understand what i said. Which is fine, but really annoying.
My explanation literally addresses WHY mlps infinities dont qualify as exponentiation. I.e each door is only one universe, its a finite step. Which cannot be the case for uncountable sets (oversimplification but it gets the point across). Like dude, js read.

If you mean this, it is literally the case. Every door contains ponies which on their own generate infinite choices due to them also having their own hallways.

ok. no it is not "literally the case" i already address this above. didnt realize i need to simplify what i meant but basically. to get an uncountable set, each door needs to be all possible choices/universes in the hallway(the hallway its part of, not a hallway inside the door universe). Not just 1 universe. with another infinite hallway.

I literally did link into the OP though. Though it namedrops uncountable infinity but it'd still qualify without it.

Dude. Im saying you need prove they are exactly the same or atleast significantly the same. Theres quite a difference between mlp and transformers iirc.

 

[StrymULTRA]

My explanation literally addresses WHY mlps infinities dont qualify as exponentiation. I.e each door is only one universe, its a finite step. Which cannot be the case for uncountable sets (oversimplification but it gets the point across). Like dude, js read.

You did not counter why one universe on its own leads to infinite other universes due to each pony in the door also having its own infinite universes. You being stubborn does not mean that people don't understand.

ok. no it is not "literally the case" i already address this above. didnt realize i need to simplify what i meant but basically. to get an uncountable set, each door needs to be all possible choices/universes in the hallway(the hallway its part of, not a hallway inside the door universe). Not just 1 universe. with another infinite hallway.

It pretty much is I am afraid. Considering that every hallways leads to infinite other ones in every single door, it is "literally the case" lol.

Dude. Im saying you need prove they are exactly the same or atleast significantly the same. Theres quite a difference between mlp and transformers iirc.

They both have the whole thing of "each choice makes infinite universes, and each of these infinite universes also makes infinite universes on their own infinitely".

 

[Vesxpura]

You did not counter why one universe on its own leads to infinite other universes due to each pony in the door also having its own infinite universes. You being stubborn does not mean that people don't understand.

ok? like cool. What are you attacking exactly. ur just saying one universe leads to infinite universes, if and then we have an infinite amount of those, so the conclusion is still infinity * infinity, infinitely. this just makes a larger countable set. not an uncountable one. ive been saying it over and over again. This isnt like finite arithmetic where the same base being multipled n amount of times is sudden that base to the power n.

It pretty much is I am afraid. Considering that every hallways leads to infinite other ones in every single door, it is "literally the case" lol.

I literally assume this to be the case. it doesnt help you lol.

 

[StrymULTRA]

ok? like cool. What are you attacking exactly. ur just saying one universe leads to infinite universes, if and then we have an infinite amount of those, so the conclusion is still infinity * infinity, infinitely.

Which is Infinity^Infinity, how do you think basic power works?

You'd be right if this infinity x infinity keeps going a finite amount of times, but here it does not.

I literally assume this to be the case. it doesnt help you lol.

You're pretty much conceding to my point by doing that, however.

 

[Lynieryz]

I didn't understand the opposition. In an infinite multiverse, there are infinite ponies that generate infinite hallways [Multiverses] that contain infinite doors [Universes] that contain infinite ponies that generate infinite hallways that contain infinite doors... and so on infinitely.

 

[PonePoster]

did you even read my point , its either you didnt read it, or you couldnt understand what i said. Which is fine, but really annoying.
My explanation literally addresses WHY mlps infinities dont qualify as exponentiation. I.e each door is only one universe, its a finite step. Which cannot be the case for uncountable sets (oversimplification but it gets the point across). Like dude, js read.



ok. no it is not "literally the case" i already address this above. didnt realize i need to simplify what i meant but basically. to get an uncountable set, each door needs to be all possible choices/universes in the hallway(the hallway its part of, not a hallway inside the door universe). Not just 1 universe. with another infinite hallway.

Dude. Im saying you need prove they are exactly the same or atleast significantly the same. Theres quite a difference between mlp and transformers iirc.

Well first the places each doorway go aren't just a single universe, since it would need to account for beings like Discord who can hop realities, and has traveled the infinite multiverse himself. Each doorway leads to every possible past, present, and future, which would include traveling to infinite realities and infinite timelines themselves, which all are contained in each doorway. Each doorway has ponies, who also dream and create their own choices, which lead to infinitely exponential timelines.

Accounting for all of that, yeah it's infinity^infinity. Infinite Hallway contains infinite futures (timelines), each doorway leads to an entire cosmology, and within these futures are infinite more Hallways which lead to more and more, etc

Edit: I literally can never find this when I need it, but another infinite "worlds" statement. "Worlds" in this instance meaning realities, which ponies can access by spells and other artifacts

 

[Vesxpura]

Which is Infinity^Infinity, how do you think basic power works?

Son dont larp math

In the presence of the Axiom of Choice, every set can be well-ordered and soevery infinite set has the cardinality of some ℵα. Thus addition and multiplication of infinite cardinal numbers is simple: If κ and λ are infinite cardinals then κ + λ = κ · λ = max{κ, λ}.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Son dont larp math

I do not see how this defeats my point, keep this pseudo-intellectual behavior outta here.

 

[Vesxpura]

I do not see how this defeats my point, keep this pseudo-intellectual behavior outta here.

"the product of infinite cardinals is equal to their sum" are you tryna say the infinity +infinity infinite times is now infinite to the power infinity
Yeah quit scaling atp. Oh and just for clarification. infinity + infinity is still infinity

quit being disingenious just because you were wrong.

 

[StrymULTRA]

"the product of infinite cardinals is equal to their sum" are you tryna say the infinity +infinity infinite times is now infinite to the power infinity
Yeah quit scaling atp. Oh and just for clarification. infinity + infinity is still infinity

Huh... yeah? Why do several pages say that 2^infinity = uncountable infinity then?

quit being disingenious just because you were wrong.

Idk man there is not a single soul here agreeing with ya here, isn't that concerning?

 

[Vesxpura]

Huh... yeah? Why do several pages say that 2^infinity = uncountable infinity then?

???? because it is? idk what this has to do with my argument. do you even know how cantor came to that conclusion
im crine

Idk man there is not a single soul here agreeing with ya here, isn't that concerning?

trying to appeal to popularity aint gon work
Acting like theres other people in this thread

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'll just say that beginning to spam emojis like a 10 years old on TikTok is not making you look good, and you're getting heated in a thread over ******* MLP of all things, grow up.

You just spammed stuff from random paragraphs that don't even really tell why MLP cannot be infinity^infinity, especially given that 2^infinity is already that, let alone infinity^infinity.

 

[Vesxpura]

I'll just say that beginning to spam emojis like a 10 years old on TikTok is not making you look good, and you're getting heated in a thread over ******* MLP of all things, grow up.

You just spammed stuff from random paragraphs that don't even really tell why MLP cannot be infinity^infinity, especially given that 2^infinity is already that, let alone infinity^infinity.

ITS MATH. WHAT I SAID IS MATHEMATICALLY ACCEPTED. UR JS MISINTERPRETING MATH

i genuinely dont know what you want from me. maybe like, understand what ur actually arguing before you argue it? idk what to say, its genuinely a sad state

 

[StrymULTRA]

ITS MATH. WHAT I SAID IS MATHEMATICALLY ACCEPTED. UR JS MISINTERPRETING MATH

Idk man I am literally explaining to you why we begin with already infinite hallways by a single baseline universe, but you keep insisting on why it's just a normal infinte x infinite when it just isn't lol.

i genuinely dont know what you want from me. maybe like, understand what ur actually arguing before you argue it? idk what to say, its genuinely a sad state

Me not agreeing with you does not mean me not understanding you. Get off that high horse you're not that tuff.

 

[Vesxpura]

Idk man I am literally explaining to you why we begin with already infinite hallways by a single baseline universe, but you keep insisting on why it's just a normal infinte x infinite when it just isn't lol.

It literally is.
im not responding any further because ur clearly not intelligent enough to admit when ur wrong. Ill let the mods handle this.

 

[Antvasima]

Everybody please calm down and be polite here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Everybody please calm down and be polite here.

Any thoughts on the thread by the way?

 

[Vesxpura]

Everybody please calm down and be polite here.

swearing aside, its been passive aggressive at best. but i agree, we couldve toned it down a bit

 

[PonePoster]

Well first the places each doorway go aren't just a single universe, since it would need to account for beings like Discord who can hop realities, and has traveled the infinite multiverse himself. Each doorway leads to every possible past, present, and future, which would include traveling to infinite realities and infinite timelines themselves, which all are contained in each doorway. Each doorway has ponies, who also dream and create their own choices, which lead to infinitely exponential timelines.

Accounting for all of that, yeah it's infinity^infinity. Infinite Hallway contains infinite futures (timelines), each doorway leads to an entire cosmology, and within these futures are infinite more Hallways which lead to more and more, etc

Edit: I literally can never find this when I need it, but another infinite "worlds" statement. "Worlds" in this instance meaning realities, which ponies can access by spells and other artifacts

I also wanted to add this graph someone made on the original low-1C thread that shows the idea in practice btw

 

[Antvasima]

Any thoughts on the thread by the way?

I am uncertain, as I am not a mathematician, and I should probably ping some members who are knowledgeable about MLP to help out here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I am uncertain, as I am not a mathematician, and I should probably ping some members who are knowledgeable about MLP to help out here.

I have already messaged @FinePoint, @Maverick_Zero_X and @DarkDragonMedeus given they've participated in MLP threads before.

 

[Reiner04]

Argue in a civil manner. If the debate starts going in circles and the differences in interpretation are already clear, it’s better to agree to disagree and proceed with a vote. Discussions can become frustrating, but there’s no need to drag them on endlessly to convince each other. Sometimes the fundamentals of arguments or interpretations themselves differ, making common conclusion nearly impossible to reach.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I agree

 

[Antvasima]

@Firestorm808 @Tllmbrg @EMagoIorSouI @CinnabarManx421 @Robot972 @Phoenks @Coolboy6 @FinePoint @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you all think about this?

 

[Reiner04]

@Firestorm808 @Tllmbrg @EMagoIorSouI @CinnabarManx421 @Robot972 @Phoenks @Coolboy6 @FinePoint @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you all think about this?

I think thay deterministic action taking place is itself treated as disqualifier and universes has to propagate themselves infinitely at all times/each point in time. But i will tag Qawsedf since he was the one who clarified it to me.

@Qawsedf234 your input here will be appreciated.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think thay deterministic action taking place is itself treated as disqualifier and universes has to propagate themselves infinitely at all times/each point in time. But i will tag Qawsedf since he was the one who clarified it to me.

This would only qualify if there is a single hallway and it stops there, but it does not, especially given this:

Each doorway leads to every possible past, present, and future, which would include traveling to infinite realities and infinite timelines themselves, which all are contained in each doorway. Each doorway has ponies, who also dream and create their own choices, which lead to infinitely exponential timelines.

I also wanted to add this graph someone made on the original low-1C thread that shows the idea in practice btw

Like, how is this image wrong?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think thay deterministic action taking place is itself treated as disqualifier and universes has to propagate themselves infinitely at all times/each point in time. But i will tag Qawsedf since he was the one who clarified it to me.

Depends. If you have a franchise where it goes something like "Every decision made by a sentient creature results in a split", then that cosmology is 2-B for having a presumably countless number of universes. If the franchise goes "Every decision with those decisions causes their own splits onwards to infinity", then you have a finite number being multiplied by itself an infinite number of times, which is 2-A.

In this case though, the main issue here is that you have a recursive set of infinity, rather than a finite number being multiplied infinitely. It's why the MCU has Low 1-C timelines, because you have a 2-A multiverse being recursively multiplied an infinite number of times. To qualify for an uncountable infinite number of universes per our FAQ:

No, the default assumption is that this is not the case. "Bigger" could mean having more 2-A structures and, as explained in greater detail previously, having more 2-A structures, or even infinitely many 2-A structures, unless uncountably infinitely many, won't be above a single 2-A structure in size. This is due to these structures actually having the same size as a baseline 2-A structure. It is, however, possible to at least achieve greater than baseline 2-A power by upscaling from other characters who've performed 2-A feats or of the feats themselves, rather than by affecting 2-A structures containing other 2-A structures. However, if "bigger" is indicated to mean a size difference that makes the structure dimensionally superior to a 2-A structure, the structure qualifies for Low 1-C unless the fiction specifies otherwise.

Let's take the smallest infinite cardinal (aleph-0, or ℵ0, the cardinality of countably infinite sets) as an example in this case: A set comprised of a countably infinite number of 0-dimensional points is itself a 0-dimensional space under the usual notions of dimensionality, being thus still infinitely small. Meanwhile, a countably infinite number of planets is High 3-A, a countably infinite number of universes 2-A, and countably infinitely many dimensions High 1-B.

We then move on to the power set of ℵ0, P(ℵ0), which is an uncountably infinite quantity and represents the set of all the ways in which you can arrange the elements of a set whose cardinality is the former, and is also equal to the size of the set of all real numbers. In terms of points, one can say that everything from 1-dimensional space to (countably) infinite-dimensional space falls under it, as all of these spaces have the same number of elements (coordinates, in this case), in spite of each being infinitely larger than the preceding one by the intuitive notions of size that we regularly utilize (Area, Volume, etc.).

On the other hand, an P(ℵ0) number of universes is Low 1-C, and a similar number of spatial dimensions is High 1-B+.

While I don't remember MLP very well, if the franchise is accepted as a 2-A multiverse that has infinite branch points that create 2-A multiverses that themselves have infinite branch points, it would qualify for a Power Set of universes or Low 1-C.