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Lord of the Rings Discussion Thread

NaturalDestroyer said:
Quick question about the Ainur profiles. I noticed that their tiers during the Ainulindale are "1-A, possibly High 1-A" but their Attack Potency and Durability have "Outerversal, possibly High Outerversal+", which as I recall was the key agreed on in Tyranno's recent revisions. Shouldn't their main tiers be adjusted to match their actual profiles and to reflect the conclusions of the CRT?
Click to expand...
It's... High 1-A. There is no difference in the tier of High Outerversal+ and just High Outerversal.

Like, it's not listed as "High 1-A+", because of how the tiering template works.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
Quick question about the Ainur profiles. I noticed that their tiers during the Ainulindale are "1-A, possibly High 1-A" but their Attack Potency and Durability have "Outerversal, possibly High Outerversal+", which as I recall was the key agreed on in Tyranno's recent revisions. Shouldn't their main tiers be adjusted to match their actual profiles and to reflect the conclusions of the CRT?
Click to expand...
...I am such a dumbass, I forgot that it was supposed to be High 1-A+ when making the changes.

Edit: Nvm, I'm just a normal dumbass.
 
Tyranno223 said:
...I am such a dumbass, I forgot that it was supposed to be High 1-A+ when making the changes.

Edit: Nvm, I'm just a normal dumbass.
Click to expand...
da6cb4e1cd92.png

Here's that High 1-A+ template lmfao

It's red cause it don't exist.
 
Okay, so High Outerversal+ is just the higher end of High 1-A, but doesn't show up as any different from regular High 1-A? Odd that it's different between the AP, Dura, and overall tiering
 
Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 3)

I will give an explanation about Eru Iluvatar who has Beyond Dimensional Existence Type 3.

• Establishing the Concept of "Eä" (Objective Existence)
In Tolkien’s cosmology, Eä is not merely the name of the universe; it is an ontological statement.

Eru declared, "Eä! Let these things Be!" – The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë

The word "Eä" in Quenya means "It is" or "Let it be." Before this word was spoken, the concept of dimensions (space and time) possessed no objective reality. Everything that existed was merely "thought" within Eru. Since Eru is the one who created the category of "Being," He cannot be limited by the properties of that existence (including dimensions). Dimensions are laws that apply to the Sub-creation, whereas Eru is the First Principle who predates those laws.

• The Vision of the World as a "Mental Object" (Reality-Fiction Transcendence)
Eru presented a "Vision" to the Ainur that encompassed the entire history of the world from beginning to end. – The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë.

The entire space-time continuum (Eä)—with all its dimensional layers—originates from a single Musical Theme. For Eru, the entire universe is but a thought to which He gave "life" through the Flame Imperishable. If the entirety of dimensional reality can be condensed into a single "Song" or "Vision" before Eru, then Eru possesses absolute qualitative superiority. He does not interact with dimensions as a participant, but as a Subject who views dimensions as a static mental Object.

• Eru’s Presence in the "Timeless Halls" and "The Outside"
Tolkien was very specific in explaining that Eru’s position cannot be mapped within any dimensional coordinates.

Tolkien wrote: "The One does not physically inhabit any part of Eä... He is entirely 'outside'." – The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No. 211. The phrase "Entirely outside" does not refer to spatial distance (such as being outside a galaxy), but rather to Metaphysical Transcendence. In Morgoth’s Ring (History of Middle-earth Vol. 10), it is explained that time and space are intrinsic properties of Eä. Eru, residing in the Timeless Halls, does not merely "not age"; He exists in a state called "The Eternal Now." Because He possesses no "extension" (length, width, height, or duration), He is by definition beyond both physical and mathematical dimensional concepts.

• Eru’s Authority over "The Flame Imperishable"
Eru is the source of the "Fire" that creates reality itself. Melkor sought the Flame Imperishable in The Void, but could not find it because "it was with Ilúvatar." – The Silmarillion & Morgoth’s Ring.

The Flame Imperishable is the creative power that transforms "concepts" into "dimensional reality." Since this Flame is part of Eru’s essence, Eru holds total control over the transition from the Non-Dimensional (Thought) to the Dimensional (Eä). Simply put, an entity that possesses the power to create or abolish "space" and "time" out of nothing (Ex Nihilo) cannot be a dimensional entity. He is the Master of the concept of dimensions itself.
 
Experiment12 said:
Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 3)

I will give an explanation about Eru Iluvatar who has Beyond Dimensional Existence Type 3.

• Establishing the Concept of "Eä" (Objective Existence)
In Tolkien’s cosmology, Eä is not merely the name of the universe; it is an ontological statement.

Eru declared, "Eä! Let these things Be!" – The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë

The word "Eä" in Quenya means "It is" or "Let it be." Before this word was spoken, the concept of dimensions (space and time) possessed no objective reality. Everything that existed was merely "thought" within Eru. Since Eru is the one who created the category of "Being," He cannot be limited by the properties of that existence (including dimensions). Dimensions are laws that apply to the Sub-creation, whereas Eru is the First Principle who predates those laws.

• The Vision of the World as a "Mental Object" (Reality-Fiction Transcendence)
Eru presented a "Vision" to the Ainur that encompassed the entire history of the world from beginning to end. – The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë.

The entire space-time continuum (Eä)—with all its dimensional layers—originates from a single Musical Theme. For Eru, the entire universe is but a thought to which He gave "life" through the Flame Imperishable. If the entirety of dimensional reality can be condensed into a single "Song" or "Vision" before Eru, then Eru possesses absolute qualitative superiority. He does not interact with dimensions as a participant, but as a Subject who views dimensions as a static mental Object.

• Eru’s Presence in the "Timeless Halls" and "The Outside"
Tolkien was very specific in explaining that Eru’s position cannot be mapped within any dimensional coordinates.

Tolkien wrote: "The One does not physically inhabit any part of Eä... He is entirely 'outside'." – The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No. 211. The phrase "Entirely outside" does not refer to spatial distance (such as being outside a galaxy), but rather to Metaphysical Transcendence. In Morgoth’s Ring (History of Middle-earth Vol. 10), it is explained that time and space are intrinsic properties of Eä. Eru, residing in the Timeless Halls, does not merely "not age"; He exists in a state called "The Eternal Now." Because He possesses no "extension" (length, width, height, or duration), He is by definition beyond both physical and mathematical dimensional concepts.

• Eru’s Authority over "The Flame Imperishable"
Eru is the source of the "Fire" that creates reality itself. Melkor sought the Flame Imperishable in The Void, but could not find it because "it was with Ilúvatar." – The Silmarillion & Morgoth’s Ring.

The Flame Imperishable is the creative power that transforms "concepts" into "dimensional reality." Since this Flame is part of Eru’s essence, Eru holds total control over the transition from the Non-Dimensional (Thought) to the Dimensional (Eä). Simply put, an entity that possesses the power to create or abolish "space" and "time" out of nothing (Ex Nihilo) cannot be a dimensional entity. He is the Master of the concept of dimensions itself.
Click to expand...
This seems to make sense to me at least. 🙏
 
Experiment12 said:
Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 3)

I will give an explanation about Eru Iluvatar who has Beyond Dimensional Existence Type 3.

• Establishing the Concept of "Eä" (Objective Existence)
In Tolkien’s cosmology, Eä is not merely the name of the universe; it is an ontological statement.

Eru declared, "Eä! Let these things Be!" – The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë

The word "Eä" in Quenya means "It is" or "Let it be." Before this word was spoken, the concept of dimensions (space and time) possessed no objective reality. Everything that existed was merely "thought" within Eru. Since Eru is the one who created the category of "Being," He cannot be limited by the properties of that existence (including dimensions). Dimensions are laws that apply to the Sub-creation, whereas Eru is the First Principle who predates those laws.

• The Vision of the World as a "Mental Object" (Reality-Fiction Transcendence)
Eru presented a "Vision" to the Ainur that encompassed the entire history of the world from beginning to end. – The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë.

The entire space-time continuum (Eä)—with all its dimensional layers—originates from a single Musical Theme. For Eru, the entire universe is but a thought to which He gave "life" through the Flame Imperishable. If the entirety of dimensional reality can be condensed into a single "Song" or "Vision" before Eru, then Eru possesses absolute qualitative superiority. He does not interact with dimensions as a participant, but as a Subject who views dimensions as a static mental Object.

• Eru’s Presence in the "Timeless Halls" and "The Outside"
Tolkien was very specific in explaining that Eru’s position cannot be mapped within any dimensional coordinates.

Tolkien wrote: "The One does not physically inhabit any part of Eä... He is entirely 'outside'." – The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No. 211. The phrase "Entirely outside" does not refer to spatial distance (such as being outside a galaxy), but rather to Metaphysical Transcendence. In Morgoth’s Ring (History of Middle-earth Vol. 10), it is explained that time and space are intrinsic properties of Eä. Eru, residing in the Timeless Halls, does not merely "not age"; He exists in a state called "The Eternal Now." Because He possesses no "extension" (length, width, height, or duration), He is by definition beyond both physical and mathematical dimensional concepts.

• Eru’s Authority over "The Flame Imperishable"
Eru is the source of the "Fire" that creates reality itself. Melkor sought the Flame Imperishable in The Void, but could not find it because "it was with Ilúvatar." – The Silmarillion & Morgoth’s Ring.

The Flame Imperishable is the creative power that transforms "concepts" into "dimensional reality." Since this Flame is part of Eru’s essence, Eru holds total control over the transition from the Non-Dimensional (Thought) to the Dimensional (Eä). Simply put, an entity that possesses the power to create or abolish "space" and "time" out of nothing (Ex Nihilo) cannot be a dimensional entity. He is the Master of the concept of dimensions itself.
Click to expand...
Looks good to me.
 
I've been thinking, is there any way to remove the "Possibly" rating or, at the very least, make it "Likely", regarding the High 1A+ tier of the Ainur characters? I've re-read a bit of the revision regarding it, and it seems much more likely (if not outright true) that they'd fully qualify for High 1A+
 
Grand_Astartes said:
I've been thinking, is there any way to remove the "Possibly" rating or, at the very least, make it "Likely", regarding the High 1A+ tier of the Ainur characters? I've re-read a bit of the revision regarding it, and it seems much more likely (if not outright true) that they'd fully qualify for High 1A+
Click to expand...
I don't see why not. It's pretty clear cut honestly given the nature of their R>F interaction. "Likely" is better than "possibly" in this case, I'd say
 
Okay. Let's wait until tomorrow then.

It seems like that revision was accepted by our staff members here. 🙏
 
Experiment12 said:
Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 3)

I will give an explanation about Eru Iluvatar who has Beyond Dimensional Existence Type 3.

• Establishing the Concept of "Eä" (Objective Existence)
In Tolkien’s cosmology, Eä is not merely the name of the universe; it is an ontological statement.

Eru declared, "Eä! Let these things Be!" – The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë

The word "Eä" in Quenya means "It is" or "Let it be." Before this word was spoken, the concept of dimensions (space and time) possessed no objective reality. Everything that existed was merely "thought" within Eru. Since Eru is the one who created the category of "Being," He cannot be limited by the properties of that existence (including dimensions). Dimensions are laws that apply to the Sub-creation, whereas Eru is the First Principle who predates those laws.

• The Vision of the World as a "Mental Object" (Reality-Fiction Transcendence)
Eru presented a "Vision" to the Ainur that encompassed the entire history of the world from beginning to end. – The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë.

The entire space-time continuum (Eä)—with all its dimensional layers—originates from a single Musical Theme. For Eru, the entire universe is but a thought to which He gave "life" through the Flame Imperishable. If the entirety of dimensional reality can be condensed into a single "Song" or "Vision" before Eru, then Eru possesses absolute qualitative superiority. He does not interact with dimensions as a participant, but as a Subject who views dimensions as a static mental Object.

• Eru’s Presence in the "Timeless Halls" and "The Outside"
Tolkien was very specific in explaining that Eru’s position cannot be mapped within any dimensional coordinates.

Tolkien wrote: "The One does not physically inhabit any part of Eä... He is entirely 'outside'." – The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter No. 211. The phrase "Entirely outside" does not refer to spatial distance (such as being outside a galaxy), but rather to Metaphysical Transcendence. In Morgoth’s Ring (History of Middle-earth Vol. 10), it is explained that time and space are intrinsic properties of Eä. Eru, residing in the Timeless Halls, does not merely "not age"; He exists in a state called "The Eternal Now." Because He possesses no "extension" (length, width, height, or duration), He is by definition beyond both physical and mathematical dimensional concepts.

• Eru’s Authority over "The Flame Imperishable"
Eru is the source of the "Fire" that creates reality itself. Melkor sought the Flame Imperishable in The Void, but could not find it because "it was with Ilúvatar." – The Silmarillion & Morgoth’s Ring.

The Flame Imperishable is the creative power that transforms "concepts" into "dimensional reality." Since this Flame is part of Eru’s essence, Eru holds total control over the transition from the Non-Dimensional (Thought) to the Dimensional (Eä). Simply put, an entity that possesses the power to create or abolish "space" and "time" out of nothing (Ex Nihilo) cannot be a dimensional entity. He is the Master of the concept of dimensions itself.
Click to expand...
What do you think about BDE (Type 3) for the Ainur?

Since the they are inhabitants of the primary creation are beyond all possible quantitative superiorites
 
Lordhesperus said:
What do you think about BDE (Type 3) for the Ainur?

Since the they are inhabitants of the primary creation are beyond all possible quantitative superiorites
Click to expand...
To be honest, I’m still uncertain about Ainur receiving it. This is because they themselves are still bound to Eä, and if indeed the Ainur were to possess such an ability, it would fall into the category of "prior to entering Eä." I’m still unsure whether the Ainur would get Type 3 as you said, or perhaps something below it, because as implied in the following quote:
Is then Eru only the greatest of the Valar, a great god among gods, as most Men will say, even among the Atani: a king who dwells far from his kingdom and leaves lesser princes to do here much as they will? Again you say: nay', Eru is One, alone without peer, and He made Eä, and is beyond it; and the Valar are greater than we, but yet no nearer to His majesty. Is this not so? - Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
Click to expand...
It suggests that the Ainur are no closer to His grandeur, and I have my doubts about that.
 
Last edited:
Experiment12 said:
Yes, let's handle the Eru revision now.
Click to expand...
Is somebody here willing to handle it please? If so, you can request that Eru's page should be temporarily unlocked. 🙏

vsbattles.com

All-purpose request thread (New forum)

Use this thread for important staff requests that are not covered by more specialised topics or forums. All staff members should preferably subscribe to it.
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I've been so confused on where to scale people like Eomer and Imrahil tbh. Like, clearly they're no slouch compared to people like Aragorn, but right now Aragorn scales like a bajillion times higher than people like Boromir, even excluding Anduril, so it's hard for me to make the narrative argument that they're even 1/4th of Aragorn's level.
 
Grand_Astartes said:
I've been so confused on where to scale people like Eomer and Imrahil tbh. Like, clearly they're no slouch compared to people like Aragorn, but right now Aragorn scales like a bajillion times higher than people like Boromir, even excluding Anduril, so it's hard for me to make the narrative argument that they're even 1/4th of Aragorn's level.
Click to expand...
Aragorn is legit kinda just him.

There's a reason why Tolkien says, "of mortals, even Aragorn can't control the Ring". He's basically more or less the pinnacle of mortals by the WotR in terms of many ways.

That being said, Faramir is directly compared to Eomer as an equal, and Faramir is considered equal to Boromir too. Imrahil is harder to scale, but he's in the same ballpark.

Plus on the lower end of Aragorn's scaling, he's just significantly above other mortals, not ridiculously.
 
Antvasima said:
@Experiment12

Are you willing to handle the Eru revision now? 🙏
Click to expand...
I have prepared it but it is not completely finished, but I am also confused, whether the explanation is made one with Paraconsistent Physiology, in Eru's profile evidence Beyond Dimensional Existence and Paraconsistent Physiology becomesin Eru's profile Evidence Beyond Dimensional Existence and Paraconsistent Physiology becomes one. 🙏
 
Tyranno223 said:
Aragorn is legit kinda just him.

There's a reason why Tolkien says, "of mortals, even Aragorn can't control the Ring". He's basically more or less the pinnacle of mortals by the WotR in terms of many ways.

That being said, Faramir is directly compared to Eomer as an equal, and Faramir is considered equal to Boromir too. Imrahil is harder to scale, but he's in the same ballpark.

Plus on the lower end of Aragorn's scaling, he's just significantly above other mortals, not ridiculously.
Click to expand...
Yeah, makes sense. I guess, at least Wall, possibly Small Building for the ones I mentioned + Faramir. Aragorn's narrative is just cracked asf.
 
Experiment12 said:
I have prepared it but it is not completely finished, but I am also confused, whether the explanation is made one with Paraconsistent Physiology, in Eru's profile evidence Beyond Dimensional Existence and Paraconsistent Physiology becomesin Eru's profile Evidence Beyond Dimensional Existence and Paraconsistent Physiology becomes one. 🙏
Click to expand...
I am likely the wrong person to ask about that. 🙏
 
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