Hey There, Would You Like to Talk About Homestuck's Weird Metanarrative Tiering?

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks anyway.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

I'll probably have to get adapted to VSB's "new" standards for tier 1-A and above before I say anything to be honest.

I agree with SomebodyData.

 

[Deonment]

Okay so I've finally decided to get around to this and whatnot, don't fully remember everything and I don't want to reread through all of that so forgive me if I forget stuff

however, i gotta mention that on director's dialogue, she links the fact that the story happened but also didn't actually happen to the "creators all the way down" analogue, which, given the only creators we learn of in the game is of the hierachy, would imply that they are still the "authorial" kind of creators, like, she is basically putting the infinite regress thing with creators, and considering we only have 3 author characters in the game (her, dirk and hussie), it would be weird to only refer to them as "story-controlling creators" only to say there are infinite ones as well

Well, no, her mention of that is moreso a knock against the fourth wall, that the story happened, but in actuality didn't happen, because none of it is real, it's fiction, she's an author writing herself writing herself writing herself writing herself ad nauseam, and equating her nature to the hierarchy of creators still has its own issues from what I mentioned before, that it implies that they themselves are part of the hiearchy (which is a downgrade to a random layer of 1-A with a 1-A+ "true form" or smth and high 1-A ceases to exist), and that the horrorterrors, who are the ones that enabled the transcendence of MSPA and Feferi in the first place, are beyond even the narrators (which is certifiably false for a number of reasons). So this is wack

and i don't think this would contradict her being out of the hierachy since her full form is regarded as outside of the game, which in turn contains the hirachy and such (and maybe the larger story)

admitedly i don't recall another information about "creators" in the game beyond what we have discussed, so if that's not enough, i wouldn't be opposed to downgrading the cosmology

This also comes with the issue that her full form is very much implied to be her irl self, both due to the creators all the way down thing, but also the hussie WoG about himself and his author avatars

but that's exactly the case, Lord English scales because of the damage his attacks can cause on reality and such (and other things we can add there) and his existence scales above paradox space which, as we talked about before, doesn't really make much sense to scale to his AP, just his omnipresence, hax, stuff like that

the lord english that fist fights and such scales lower than his hax and such, since they are tied to his metafictional existence rather than his physical form, but that doesn't mean he can't be 1-A and such, it just means that he punches and explodes with that AP and that it is not as high as his hax

Well, no, the issue is that either his powers are hax, and thus don't scale to AP (which is wrong, see him shattering the FR by shouting), or he is 1-A in all aspects of his being, including existence, the reason why 1-A characters are 1-A is due to their existence, feats can indicate towards that existence, but fundamentally, you are 1-A because your existence is 1-A, nothing else

(Also LE's hax isn't beyond Paradox Space, he's pretty explicitly still bound to Paradox Space and the story it tells for him)

it should kinda look like this: Lord English AP (dowscale to furthest ring/paradox space), Hax, omnipresence, invincibility, etc (scale above paradox space probably)

Yeah that's an issue, unless we wanna say that Lord English's self in the FR (and that fought the ghost army) Metaphysical/Metatexual self, the anti-narrative, anti-reader, anti-Homestuck monstrousity, is what is responsible for his strength and power (ignoring the Cherub/God Clock/Aspect stuff), and that's why he could do his 1-A feats even after he got cut off from the Green Sun (in addition to Cherubs potentially being narrative level, but I don't want to think about that), but that's a bit of a stretch, one I could prolly find support for if I looked for it, but a stretch nonetheless

(There is also the argument that due to all of this and the other issues mentioned earlier, the FR just isn't 1-A, and should get downgraded to Low 1-A, but I don't want to think about that rn)

First Guardian MSPA Reader Stuff

Can save that for the scaling thread

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here in summary, and why?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

So what should we do here in summary, and why?

Honestly, I’d just say wait for Azathoth to come back to reply, which I know he’s busy so that will probably take a while. Idk about everyone else but that’s just me.

 

[Hecky2222]

So what should we do here in summary, and why?

OP seems to be inactive for almost 4 monthes. This CRT seems to pretty much dead without counterargument maker

Here I made simplier version of this

Problems with High 1-A Homestuck|STAFF VOTES [2 : 0]

I was reading through Homestuck CRT and realized how outdated it is by current standards Credits to @Mr._East_Statement and @BlazeISbot111 for helping with arguments So to start, as always, I believe you are knowledgeable how dimensional scaling works generally. Generally how they work and...

vsbattles.com

Still dissapointed by fact supporters rejected arguing with me cuz there is this CRT with different argument

I say this CRT should stay since there is discussion who scales to cosmology or not anyway and will be decided when OP is back. Whereas I recommend ppl here moving to new thread where this is simplified(It is only cosmology I dont know who scales to it anyway)

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP seems to be inactive for almost 4 monthes. This CRT seems to pretty much dead without counterargument maker

 

[Antvasima]

OP seems to be inactive for almost 4 monthes. This CRT seems to pretty much dead without counterargument maker

Here I made simplier version of this

Problems with High 1-A Homestuck|STAFF VOTES [2 : 0]

I was reading through Homestuck CRT and realized how outdated it is by current standards Credits to @Mr._East_Statement and @BlazeISbot111 for helping with arguments So to start, as always, I believe you are knowledgeable how dimensional scaling works generally. Generally how they work and...

vsbattles.com

Still dissapointed by fact supporters rejected arguing with me cuz there is this CRT with different argument

I say this CRT should stay since there is discussion who scales to cosmology or not anyway and will be decided when OP is back. Whereas I recommend ppl here moving to new thread where this is simplified(It is only cosmology I dont know who scales to it anyway)

Have you based your revision on Azathoth's arguments here, or is it very different?

 

[Hecky2222]

Have you based your revision on Azathoth's arguments here, or is it very different?

Not really, premise is same(Debunking High 1-A) but different argument to downgrade 1A+

Basically what I want is fixing cosmology bit. Whoever scales to it I dont know. So if Azathoth comes back ever whoever scales to it can be decided there.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What do you want to downgrade the verse's characters to and why, in summary?

 

[Hecky2222]

Okay. What do you want to downgrade the verse's characters to and why, in summary?

If cosmology is affected, so does characters cuz rn they scale to cosmology

Also I would summarize arguments in my own CRT after few inputs probably. I am just waiting for supporter's counters

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

Are you willing to help out here again please?

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Also I would summarize arguments in my own CRT after few inputs probably. I am just waiting for supporter's counters

I’ll probably try and do a counter (or at least explain why High 1-A can be valid interpretation), but given the nature of Homestuck, I probably won’t be in the mood to do that for a while. (Probably doesn’t entirely help that I last read the original in 2021)

 

[Hecky2222]

I’ll probably try and do a counter (or at least explain why High 1-A can be valid interpretation), but given the nature of Homestuck, I probably won’t be in the mood to do that for a while. (Probably doesn’t entirely help that I last read the original in 2021)

I will wait for your input , just to note I am not arguing R > F being not valid but it being quantity R > F only

If anything it gets downgrade probably I have way to get them back to High 1A with different reason lol

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

If anything it gets downgrade probably I have way to get them back to High 1A with different reason lol

Ayo pass me those arguments hold on

Okay fr I’ll stop until I get my reply done, when will that be? Who knows lol

 

[Thelastmlg]

Double death

Yeah the argument wasn't that strong so i' not surprised

There is foxy's argument too

Also, if I may point this out as well because I just remembered this. Plot, fate, and causality in Homestuck can be pretty interconnected to my understanding. Caliborn's passives for example, make it so that:

"ALL CAUSALITY ANSWERS TO ME. AND THAT ALL OUTCOMES NOT ONLY SERVE ME. BUT CONSIST OF MY BEING."

So if the meta rivers have their own fate and causality for the higher and lower worlds (we literally give the God tier (not the actual term God Tier in verse) characters Acausality Type 4 from being unbound from the meta-rivers which are "literal fates, causality and plots"), how does that not also include plot? Are the meta-rivers the exception?

Definitely something that should be discussed at least.

I can think of more for this, such as aspects like void and light having connections to the plot (obscurity and author omniscience, and light being related to Relevancy which is a pillar of canon) and all aspects are connected so time, and thus causality and fate would be too

However

I feel like this would just a be a hax thing really, cuz you probably stretch this to mean everything, including Genesis frogs, incipispheres, skaia, etc are 1-A due to them being related to or made of stuff like space, time, possibilities, etc, and i think that might lead to circular reasoning too

I think this is more so that the narrative in homestuck controls those things, rather than those things being the narrative itself

So overall, i don't think we need to wait for azathoth to come back since basically everyone agrees, I agree with the downgrade as well (admitedly partly cuz i wanna deal with my overhaul already)

If there are other arguments for high 1-A we can make a new thread in the future anyway

So with this it would be

Jenga tower = High 1-B

Full light of reality = either low 1-A or 1-A for beyond beyond the hierachy and i think being the Furthest ring?

Furthest ring = Baseline 1-A

Paradox Space = 1 layer into 1-A

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

However

I feel like this would just a be a hax thing really, cuz you probably stretch this to mean everything, including Genesis frogs, incipispheres, skaia, etc are 1-A due to them being related to or made of stuff like space, time, possibilities, etc, and i think that might lead to circular reasoning too

I mean… Funny you mention that because that wouldn’t even be fully impossible given what was mentioned in the thread prior LMAO

It's like a sort of membrane, producing an almost electrostatic buffer that shields one field of narrative potential from another. And if AH understands this on some level, then he's making some (for now) good faith effort to insulate the narrative from this 4th wall meta-fuckery. But the shielding can only last as long as LE himself has not been summoned yet, and is not wearing the coat, which would remove it from the wall (this happens in Cascade, conveniently just before Jade's golden ship crashes through the wall to traverse between sessions, or narrative realms). And since this construct is associated with LE, its partitioning effect also has some insidious implications.

I’d rather leave that discussion for another time though.

 

[Hecky2222]

Yeah the argument wasn't that strong so i' not surprised

There is foxy's argument too

I can think of more for this, such as aspects like void and light having connections to the plot (obscurity and author omniscience, and light being related to Relevancy which is a pillar of canon) and all aspects are connected so time, and thus causality and fate would be too

However

I feel like this would just a be a hax thing really, cuz you probably stretch this to mean everything, including Genesis frogs, incipispheres, skaia, etc are 1-A due to them being related to or made of stuff like space, time, possibilities, etc, and i think that might lead to circular reasoning too

I think this is more so that the narrative in homestuck controls those things, rather than those things being the narrative itself

So overall, i don't think we need to wait for azathoth to come back since basically everyone agrees, I agree with the downgrade as well (admitedly partly cuz i wanna deal with my overhaul already)

If there are other arguments for high 1-A we can make a new thread in the future anyway

So with this it would be

Jenga tower = High 1-B

Full light of reality = either low 1-A or 1-A for beyond beyond the hierachy and i think being the Furthest ring?

Furthest ring = Baseline 1-A

Paradox Space = 1 layer into 1-A

Oh ye about that. We were looking for you in another thread to get where you got R > F for Paradox Space. We were discussing with guys should be that 4 layers into 1-A, 1 layer into 1-A(Or potentially High 1-A if that's R > f over paradox space valid)

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah the argument wasn't that strong so i' not surprised

There is foxy's argument too

I can think of more for this, such as aspects like void and light having connections to the plot (obscurity and author omniscience, and light being related to Relevancy which is a pillar of canon) and all aspects are connected so time, and thus causality and fate would be too

However

I feel like this would just a be a hax thing really, cuz you probably stretch this to mean everything, including Genesis frogs, incipispheres, skaia, etc are 1-A due to them being related to or made of stuff like space, time, possibilities, etc, and i think that might lead to circular reasoning too

I think this is more so that the narrative in homestuck controls those things, rather than those things being the narrative itself

So overall, i don't think we need to wait for azathoth to come back since basically everyone agrees, I agree with the downgrade as well (admitedly partly cuz i wanna deal with my overhaul already)

If there are other arguments for high 1-A we can make a new thread in the future anyway

So with this it would be

Jenga tower = High 1-B

Full light of reality = either low 1-A or 1-A for beyond beyond the hierachy and i think being the Furthest ring?

Furthest ring = Baseline 1-A

Paradox Space = 1 layer into 1-A

So which staff members have accepted this revision, and are any of our members here able and willing to properly apply it?

 

[Hecky2222]

So which staff members have accepted this revision, and are any of our members here able and willing to properly apply it?

Noone yet. As I said we moved to another thread there

If you want to participate in it, we don't mind. With supporters and opponents in that thread we reached to the conclusion High 1-A should go and 1-A should stay.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will take a look.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hey sorry I like
Died for a while
But glancing around at the profiles I generally agree with where they seem to have ended up.

My sole issue, which is more of a relic of the old scaling, is that I still have no idea why MSPA Reader is an entire R>F layer above Alt. Calliope, Ult. Dirk, and the Director. That feels highly contradictory to Pesterquest's ending.

 

[Antvasima]

Hey sorry I like
Died for a while
But glancing around at the profiles I generally agree with where they seem to have ended up.

My sole issue, which is more of a relic of the old scaling, is that I still have no idea why MSPA Reader is an entire R>F layer above Alt. Calliope, Ult. Dirk, and the Director. That feels highly contradictory to Pesterquest's ending.

No problem, and it is good to see you again.

Is somebody here willing to help out Azathoth with that please?

 

[Deonment]

My sole issue, which is more of a relic of the old scaling, is that I still have no idea why MSPA Reader is an entire R>F layer above Alt. Calliope, Ult. Dirk, and the Director. That feels highly contradictory to Pesterquest's ending.

Yeah, it should get downgraded, all of the supporters i've talked to (at least to memory) agree it should be, and if needs be I'll just make the downgrade thread myself (which'll take another period of waiting on staff, since I'm not just gonna force the staffs to come back to the thread on a honestly quite lesser problem than the other things being waited on)

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah, it should get downgraded, all of the supporters i've talked to (at least to memory) agree it should be, and if needs be I'll just make the downgrade thread myself (which'll take another period of waiting on staff, since I'm not just gonna force the staffs to come back to the thread on a honestly quite lesser problem than the other things being waited on)

Your help with this would be appreciated. Please link to your new content revision thread here after you have posted it.

 

[Deonment]

Done

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Should we close this thread then?

 

[Deonment]

Thank you. Should we close this thread then?

Yeah, don't think there's any real reason to leave it open.

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.