Ben 10: Universe downgrade

[Reiner04]

I think i shpuld mention all the changes that will happen in ben 10 in the OP. Will do in few hours.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Timeline becomes equals to Universe. Annhilargh Universe is all of existence, not one of many universes in the space beyond. Space beyond will be inside Annhilargh Universe.

Ahhh I got it now. So the Space Beyond and the Timestream/Crosstime would essentially be the same thing then?

iirc that’s pretty much how it used to be. I don’t exactly remember why it was changed so I’ll remain neutral for now.

 

[Reiner04]

Ahhh I got it now. So the Space Beyond and the Timestream/Crosstime would essentially be the same thing then?

Yes. Pretty much.

 

[Lort15]

Yes. Pretty much.

wait for Hellformer he is the real wank source

 

[Reiner04]

@Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus i have further elaborated on the changes in the OP, this is the overall summary on the changes on cosmology page:

Summary for cosmology page:
Timeline becomes equals to Universe. Annhilargh Universe will be all of existence, not one of many universes in the space beyond. Space beyond will be inside Annhilargh Universe. All the Profiles that has 26d rating due to destroying Universe solely will be downgraded to 2-A.

Can you give your input again due to updated changes?

 

[GeneralSol16]

Yes. Pretty much.

But literally how? The Annhilargh Universe contains the Timestream and beyond, the Space Beyond contains a multitude of Annhilargh Universes, aka Annhilargh Multiverse.

A timeline is 2-A.
The Timestream/Cross-Time is Low 1-C.
And then there's everything else.

 

[Reiner04]

But literally how? The Annhilargh Universe contains the Timestream and beyond, the Space Beyond contains a multitude of Annhilargh Universes, aka Annhilargh Multiverse.

A timeline is 2-A.
The Timestream/Cross-Time is Low 1-C.
And then there's everything else.

Yeah, but Annhilargh Universe is not the normal Universe/Timestream. The Universe that was introduced in the forge of creation inside space beyond were normal Universes since Multiverse was yet to be introduced. That was the whole point of Universe is everything statement by Kevin. And Annhilargh created Universe is in the sense that it created entire verse/all of existence.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Yeah, but Annhilargh Universe is not the normal Universe/Timestream. The Universe that was introduced in the forge of creation inside space beyond were normal Universes since Multiverse was yet to be introduced. That was the whole point of Universe is everything statement by Kevin. And Annhilargh created Universe is in the sense that it created entire verse/all of existence.

The crew knew about it since AF, Paradox introduced the concept of the Timestream since his debit, and Ben and Gwen know about alternate timelines since OS.

 

[Reiner04]

The crew knew about it since AF, Paradox introduced the concept of the Timestream since his debit, and Ben and Gwen know about alternate timelines since OS.

That was possible future, it was yet to be manifested as world, we know it since parallel world was introduced properly in Ben 10000 returns and befire it, trio knew nothing about multiverse. We have Kevin statement anyways.

 

[GeneralSol16]

That was possible future, it was yet to be manifested as world, we know it since parallel world was introduced prop deerly in Ben 10000 returns and befire it, trio knew nothing about multiverse. We have Kevin statement anyways.

The Timestream was introduced in Alien X to the team by Paradox.
And by concept all those universes fit for better with the Annhilargh description

 

[Reiner04]

The Timestream was introduced in Alien X to the team by Paradox.
And by concept all those universes fit for better with the Annhilargh description

You mean in forge of creation? But that's the statement we are talking about here since multiverse wasn't a thing before it

 

[Re5yh]

Agree and following

 

[GeneralSol16]

You mean in forge of creation? But that's the statement we are talking about here since multiverse wasn't a thing before it

No.
I mean in Alien Force, Paradox' debut episode, he explains the concept of space and time and timestream to them.

 

[Reiner04]

No.
I mean in Alien Force, Paradox' debut episode, he explains the concept of space and time and timestream to them.

He just explained how time works and its regular flow. Nothing to do with Multiverse.

 

[GeneralSol16]

He just explained how time works and its regular flow. Nothing to do with Multiverse.

He explained the Timestream, which is the Multiverse.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

I don't think so. But i have created another thread to deal with which tier he will be at after this.

Oh, I wonder what thread it is-

....
....
....

I feel so ashamed of myself.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Ben 10 is definitely in its dark times right now

 

[GeneralSol16]

Ben 10 is definitely in its dark times right now

Not even close lol

 

[DaReaperMan]

I agree with this, but I haven't watched the series much so my opinion not withstanding.

Back to tier 2 with Alien X! It's where he belongs, below Mimir!

 

[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

Contumelia outright mention that Annihilargh Universe is just "one among many"
Timelines are same branches of the very same Spacetime having same laws but that's not true for universes within the Space Beyond.

 

[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

I actually have a strong disagreement with this CRT (as many things that are mentioned here were disproved in previous CRTs)
• Contumelia outright stated that the Annihilargh Universe Ben belongs to is ons of many, which can be further clarified by the Rook's statement which implies that there are several white voids and Contumelia move from one to another causing a seperate big bang in each for creation of a new Annihilargh Universe .

• What we know of Space Beyond is that it has Universes with different laws of physics, while all of Timestream diverges from the same Spacetime of Ben's Prime Timeline (should have as same laws of physics as Ben's Timeline had so far due to being just one structure so where would any Universe that has different laws fit in this setting), so universes of Space Beyond can never be timelines neither it should be a part of Timestream.

 

[Robo432343]

The 1-B rating is not affected by this so i agree

 

[Tank1418]

I haven’t seen a Ben 10's cosmology downgrade thread like this in a long time..... So it finally happened again.

 

[DemonicDude]

I haven’t seen a Ben 10's cosmology downgrade thread like this in a long time..... So it finally happened again.

Yeah only difference is it's made by Reiner and not kuki

 

[Reiner04]

I actually have a strong disagreement with this CRT (as many things that are mentioned here were disproved in previous CRTs)
• Contumelia outright stated that the Annihilargh Universe Ben belongs to is ons of many, which can be further clarified by the Rook's statement which implies that there are several white voids and Contumelia move from one to another causing a seperate big bang in each for creation of a new Annihilargh Universe .

They seems to be talking about Ben prime's Universe in there, along with many other Universes that was created along with it. We know it since in the last scene of the episode we see exactly same universe containing galaxies in which contumelias ship was after they created all of existence.

Rook's statement is not reliable in least since he thought contumelias are evil beings who onky destroys Universes for fun.

• What we know of Space Beyond is that it has Universes with different laws of physics, while all of Timestream diverges from the same Spacetime of Ben's Prime Timeline (should have as same laws of physics as Ben's Timeline had so far due to being just one structure so where would any Universe that has different laws fit in this setting), so universes of Space Beyond can never be timelines neither it should be a part of Timestream.

Timelines can have different laws, depending on when they were branched. We don't know how a universe will turn out of infinite possibilities.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Reiner04 Since the multiverse contains only 17 dimensions/universes, does that mean that the timestream branches beyond the Annihilaargh universe in your interpretation?

 

[Reiner04]

@Reiner04 Since the multiverse contains only 17 dimensions/universes, does that mean that the timestream branches beyond the Annihilaargh universe in your interpretation?

We know nothing about those 17 dimensions beyond that Map of infinity functionality extends through them. They could be just higher dimensions or some other form of collections. We don't know what it was referring to.

 

[Reiner04]

In anycase;

What your interpretation of the cosmology will be if not this one, supported by the show @Greenshifter (no need to post scans, juzt remind me the scene or episode)?

 

[Greenshifter]

Servantis and the Contumelia confirm there’s more than one Annihilaargh universe so clearly it’s not all of existence?

 

[Greenshifter]

We know nothing about those 17 dimensions beyond that Map of infinity functionality extends through them. They could be just higher dimensions or some other form of collections. We don't know what it was referring to.

Actually there’s evidence to suggest that they’re not higher dimensions. And if you’re willing to say “dimensions can mean anything” then clearly looking at the context when someone says “universe” in Ben 10 is also a good idea no?

 

[Reiner04]

Actually there’s evidence to suggest that they’re not higher dimensions. And if you’re willing to say “dimensions can mean anything” then clearly looking at the context when someone says “universe” in Ben 10 is also a good idea no?

It could but there are no other usage of word universe in ben 10 other than "All of existence" or a Proper Universe/Timeline. Dimension on the other hand, has.

Servantis and the Contumelia confirm there’s more than one Annihilaargh universe so clearly it’s not all of existence?

Contumelias essentially said to ben and rook that they are going to witness creation of their own universe, most interesting one yet. But just because they gonna witness creation of their own universe doesn't mean the creation of Annhilargh was limited to their own. Look at the scan i posted above, specifically where we are shown the view of the Ben's Universe on grand scale at the end of the omniverse and that is exactly same as the view of the Universe Ben, rook and contumelia ship end up in after Annhilargh created all of existence. Means the space they all will end up at will be Prime Timeline after Annhilargh done creating all of existemce, so their statement makes sense.

same universe containing galaxies in which contumelias ship was after they created all of existence.

 

[ABSOLUTE-ABSTRACT-KING]

They seems to be talking about Ben prime's Universe in there, along with many other Universes that was created along with it. We know it since in the last scene of the episode we see exactly same universe containing galaxies in which contumelias ship was after they created all of existence.

Rook's statement is not reliable in least since he thought contumelias are evil beings who onky destroys Universes for fun.

They had made other universes in past and thought that Ben's one is most interesting one "yet" (they had made other universes in past which is indicated from this). Also we can just say that "Universe made of Galaxies" was just an infinitesimal part of universe they created (and they were standing in it).

Timelines can have different laws, depending on when they were branched. We don't know how a universe will turn out of infinite possibilities.

They had same laws (were same) upto the point when Ben received Omnitrix (that's when branching started), what justifies sudden change of laws in the universe located right next to Ben's Universe?

 

[Okstrike]

Yeah, but Annhilargh Universe is not the normal Universe/Timestream. The Universe that was introduced in the forge of creation inside space beyond were normal Universes since Multiverse was yet to be introduced. That was the whole point of Universe is everything statement by Kevin. And Annhilargh created Universe is in the sense that it created entire verse/all of existence.

Meh, the events of "Paradox" already prove that there at least somewhat aware of the Timestream

Also, the Contemelia seemed to imply in their dialogue that they had made multiple other Universes with an Annhilargh before the main one since
they call Ben's Universe "the most interesting one so yet"

We know nothing about those 17 dimensions beyond that Map of infinity functionality extends through them. They could be just higher dimensions or some other form of collections. We don't know what it was referring to.

While that is true, If you actually look at the context, it's most likely that the 17 "dimensions" are referring to Annhilargh Universes in the space beyond since the MoI is used as a way to access the FoC, which is situated within Space Beyond/Omniverse, which in turn is a collection of an unknown amount of (Annhilargh) Universes

That was possible future, it was yet to be manifested as world, we know it since parallel world was introduced properly in Ben 10000 returns and befire it, trio knew nothing about multiverse. We have Kevin statement anyways.

Dude, all time exists simultaneously in the Verse, otherwise one shouldn't be able to travel into the future from the present, and therefore all possible worlds are already manifested since they manifest as a result of the possible events that could've taken place

What Paradox means by possible future is a possible future of the prime timeline had they let Hugo rampage on, not necessarily that this future hasn't occurred yet

Timelines can have different laws, depending on when they were branched. We don't know how a universe will turn out of infinite possibilities.

I doubt it, all timelines started off from, and branched off the same timeline, which entails that they all have the same physical structure since alternate timelines simply function as parallel variations of the prime timelines established history:

"We are near the beginning of the Ben Prime Timeline. The trunk of the Ben Tennyson tree from which all other Ben realities diverge. You must reboot this Timestream"

"As Gwen guessed, cross-time is made up of parallel versions of the history we know. There are hundreds of them... a world where Gwen found the Omnitrix, a world where albedo turned to alien x and was trapped motionless for nearly a year, a world where you didn't have to destroy the Omnitrix to defeat Vilgax, Ad infinitum"

But even with the benefit of the doubt, Universes have fundamentally different laws to the extent that Paradox dislikes them, something which i don't see how it could be the case with the timelines even if you where right:

"That is the next universe over. I don't like it at all, the physics are terribly counterintuitive"

 

[TheTenno07]

I don't think so. But i have created another thread to deal with which tier he will be at after this.


Useless wanker

I'm telling my mom about this!

 

[Reiner04]

Meh, the events of "Paradox" already prove that there at least somewhat aware of the Timestream

Also, the Contemelia seemed to imply in their dialogue that they had made multiple other Universes with an Annhilargh before the main one since
they Call Ben's Universe was called the "most interesting one so far"

While that is true, If you actually look at the context, it's most likely that the 17 "dimensions" are referring to Annhilargh Universes in the space beyond since the MoI is used as a way to access the FoC, which is situated within Space Beyond/Omniverse, which in turn is a collection of an unknown amount of (Annhilargh) Universes

Dude, all time exists simultaneously in the Verse, otherwise one shouldn't be able to travel into the future from the present, and therefore all possible worlds are already manifested since they manifest as a result of the possible events that could've taken place

What Paradox means by possible future is a possible future of the prime timeline had they let Hugo rampage on, not necessarily that this future hasn't occurred yet

Yes but Universes have fundamentally different laws to the extent that Paradox dislikes them, something which wouldn't be the case with the timelines:

Well, yeah, that seems correct. I conceed on that part.

Tho there is one thing i disagree with is that Trio were aware of the multiverse/parallel worlds somewhat. They clearly weren't since Kevin made it clear jn forge of creation. Paradox has countless times used timelines and Universes interchangebly, that means Timelines are Universes too, its just that the scope of Contumelias Multiverse is greater than the Timestream Multiverse/One Annhilargh Universe. So i still think pages needs to reflect different scope of universes and multiverses across entire franchise.

 

[Okstrike]

Tho there is one thing i disagree with is that Trio were aware of the multiverse/parallel worlds somewhat. They clearly weren't since Kevin made it clear jn forge of creation.

Kevin was without a doubt aware of alternate dimensions since he had spent 5 years stuck in the Null Void, and just a few episodes ago was in Legerdomain.

So "the Universe" that he had thought was everything definitely isn't just referring "Universe" as in a singular cosmological structure, he was probably referring to everything created by the big bang (all alternate timelines and dimensions), or in other words, an Annhilargh Universe, which he had believed to be everything.

Paradox has countless times used timelines and Universes interchangebly, that means Timelines are Universes too,

The franchise is very inconsistent with it terminology, for example, Dagon also referred to what was likely a single dimension as a universe in UA's finale, and so does Ben in the same episode, so i don't think that this would instantly means Timelines are "Universes" (as in what Paradox and the Trio flew by on their way to the FoC, which are likely Annhilargh Universes)

The way i see it, timelines are universes in the way they're traditionally thought of as (a singular cosmological structure), but not in the way that Ben 10 treats them (EVERYTHING created by the big bang, ie, all alternate timelines and dimensions)

its just that the scope of Contumelias Multiverse is greater than the Timestream Multiverse/One Annhilargh Universe. So i still think pages needs to reflect different scope of universes and multiverses across entire franchise.

I agree with this

 

[Reiner04]

Kevin was without a doubt aware of alternate dimensions since he had spent 5 years stuck in the Null Void, and just a few episodes ago was in Legerdomain.

Yeah but alternate dimensions is not exactly a Universe. They run with a single timeline and their events passes parallel with each, each timeline has nullvoid, legerdomain, etc. Servantis mentions Nullvoid as part of the Universe too.

So "the Universe" that he had thought was everything definitely isn't just referring "Universe" as in a singular cosmological structure, he was probably referring to everything created by the big bang (all alternate timelines and dimensions), or in other words, an Annhilargh Universe, which he had believed to be everything.

Kevin was definitely not aware of the Multiverse, and definitely not of Annhilargh Universe or if his statement was referring to all of existence as Universe, then that wouldn't have been wrong either for Paradox to correct him, he was referring to a "Proper Universe", a basic Universe beyond which franchise decides to establish the verse at in the forge of creation episode. If he was aware of Multiverse or Annhilargh Universes then his statement doesn't makes sense in least, and Paradox correcting him doesn't either.

The franchise is very inconsistent with it terminology, for example, Dagon also referred to what was likely a single dimension as a universe in UA's finale, and so does Ben in the same episode, so i don't think that this would instantly means Timelines are "Universes" (as in what Paradox and the Trio flew by on their way to the FoC, which are likely Annhilargh Universes)

The way i see it, timelines are universes in the way they're traditionally thought of as (a singular cosmological structure), but not in the way that Ben 10 treats them (EVERYTHING created by the big bang, ie, all alternate timelines and dimensions)

The franchise is inconsistent with the term dimensions yeah, but not with Universes. Dagon's dimensions are proper Universes. We have direct statement. The scope of Universes, tho, seems to differs for different beings.

 

[Reiner04]

Though, you can say that the Universe outside of which they travelled to in Forge of Creation is an Annhilargh Universe, even without discrediting the part that Trio was unaware of the concept of Multiverse till then. As in Paradox directly brought them outside of the greater Universe/Annhilargh Universe.

 

[Okstrike]

Yeah but alternate dimensions is not exactly a Universe. They run with a single timeline and their events passes parallel with each, each timeline has nullvoid, legerdomain, etc. Servantis mentions Nullvoid as part of the Universe too.

I 100% agree with that, i only mentioned this as an example of the show not being consistent in it's terminology, so Paradox referring to a Timeline as a Universe can be chalked up to a terminology inconsistency and doesn't inherently mean that Timelines = Universes

Kevin was definitely not aware of the Multiverse, and definitely not of Annhilargh Universe or if his statement was referring to all of existence as Universe, then that wouldn't have been wrong either for Paradox to correct him, he was referring to a "Proper Universe", a basic Universe beyond which franchise decides to establish the verse at in the forge of creation episode. If he was aware of Multiverse or Annhilargh Universes then his statement doesn't makes sense in least, and Paradox correcting him doesn't either.

I don't think Kevin's idea of a Universe embodies all of existence, just that he thought it did and that his idea of one includes all alternate dimensions + timelines; with him explicitly being aware of the former, and arguably of the latter, Paradox's correcting him doesn't contradict this idea since it wouldn't include other Annihilargh Universes

The franchise is inconsistent with the term dimensions yeah, but not with Universes. Dagon's dimensions are proper Universes. We have direct statement. The scope of Universes, tho, seems to differs for different beings.

Dimensions all overlap in the same physical space, only being separated by dimensional barriers, so they aren't proper universes in that they aren't fully separate from each other; they all make up "one" cosmological structure that in turn makes up a timeline, which would qualify as a proper Universe since it's one unified structure, albeit, it would be a "proper" Universe which scales to 2-A:

• Animo could drill through the Null Void into Ben's dimensions
• The Esoterica could phase through Ben's dimension and Dagon's dimension at will
• The Null Void, Rex's dimension, and Ben's dimensions can all be accessed from each other via disrupters, which function by making rifts between each one of them
• The Null Void is stated to grid to the space of the Anur solar system

A little unrelated, but i also think they should be downgraded to High 3-A from Low 2-C due to this same reason (with the execption of Ledgerdomain since it has an independent flow of time)

Though, you can say that the Universe outside of which they travelled to in Forge of Creation is an Annhilargh Universe, [...] As in Paradox directly brought them outside of the greater Universe/Annhilargh Universe.

Yes, this is exactly what i'm trying to get across

 

[Okstrike]

I'm busy irl and won't have time to reply to anything else until at least tomorrow, have a good rest of your day