-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Type Moon Revival CRT relating high tiers and a few current relevant profiles - Part 1
- Thread starter ShinMaximillion
- Start date
- 21,644
- 13,560
Y’all can talk about the secrets of the VPN later, let’s make sure we don’t derail this thread any further than we already have.
- 6,547
- 6,297
You guys are derailing this thread.
- 6,547
- 6,297
I'll be deleting some of the post above.
Elesia011
He/Him- 136
- 197
Seems like he doesn't know you
Sounds like two unrelated things, even if we were to take you seriously. Arcueid didn't make a prediction out of omniscience in that part of the story. For the context you missed: Ciel told Arcueid she didn't understand Shiki, and her response was that she understands him best because she can feel all of his being and even his mental state. At that point, Shiki's energy gauge was at zero, and rather than making a deduction out of omniscience, she made a prediction based on pure logic after checking Shiki's will to fight, physical condition, and energy left. This was defeated by him who acting unconsciously when he saw Ciel falling from Arcueid's hand.
Genuinely curious to understand what you refer to as U-Olga being the "brain of the planet." First of all, that's false. The brain of the planet isn't just created, it always exists. What is formed is the physical body in likeness to the primate species of the planet something U-Olga isn't, as she is literally just Olga's mind in a Saint Graph.
The mind itself is dependent on the soul to subsist. Why would you think it's easier to understand the totality of something (the soul) rather than an aspect of it (the mind)?
Then what's the point ?
Who told you DDD is connected to any of the main story ?
さて。
ここから未来福音のネタバレというか、小話を一つ。
ＤＤＤの読者さん的には「ん？」と思うギミックがありましたが、ＤＤＤと空の境界はまったく繋がっておりません。
あくまで、ＤＤＤでいうところの「相手を自分の脳に閉じこめる」という悪魔憑きを、空の境界のルールに落とし込むとどうなるか……という比較なのでした。
相手を取り込むって、つまりこういうコトだよね、という。
そして来週、いよいよメルブラＡＡ稼働！
何人かのシナリオを重ねていかないと話の全体像が見えない作りになっていますが、まあ、やってるコトはいつもの型月伝奇です。
シリアス八割、サービス（コメディ）二割の「メルティブラッド１．５」をお楽しみください。シオン編、これにて完結でございます。
Now then.
From this point on—and this counts as a bit of a spoiler—I’d like to share a brief anecdote regarding Mirai Fukuin.
There was a certain narrative device included that might have made readers of DDD go, "Hmm?" However, let me be clear: DDD and The Garden of Sinners (Kara no Kyoukai) are not connected in any way.
It was strictly a comparative exercise—an exploration of what would happen if we took the specific form of "demonic possession" described in DDD (the act of "imprisoning an opponent within one's own brain") and applied it within the established rules of The Garden of Sinners.
It was essentially a way of saying: "So, this is what it really means to 'absorb' an opponent."
source: The BAMBOO BROOM DIARY - September 15, 2008
You totally missed the real heart of this CRT if you can't understand that such a notion only has relevance in the world of the surface, as it's governed by the laws of physics optimized for humans. There's nothing wrong with humans referring to their realm as such and in fact, Shin even uses that concept when referring to the surface world, as they are indeed a 4D spacetime continuum here.
"We get further analogues in Tsukihime: Piece of Blue Glass Moon. When Arcueid flattened the surface texture into 2-dimensions with her authority, which has been confirmed to be composed of three-dimensions and one dimension of time. What was left of the once third-dimensional world is described as "mere shadows"."
As such, other mentions of such concepts outside the Human Texture don't automatically attribute ontology to the said concept per se this is how Mash explains it whenever they were actually discussing the Imaginary Number Space instead of the Human World.
That should take care of most things, as Shin already asserted your main points.
- 1,643
- 1,300
forgor to mention, but i agree
- 1,199
- 560
Literally, this is the only character that all the employees, everyone, and the entire world agreed is at level 0, in more than one topic—whether in the employee topic or in other topics. And so far, no one has implemented the changes to make it level 0, and I don’t know the reason, even though all the topics related to promoting it to level 0 were approved."That might be saved for a later thread, but we'll see.
Kara no Kyoukai - Swirl of the Root Tier 0 (Re-Retake)
Since the previous threads, this and this, went down quite terribly due to a flux of off-topic and the thread reaching nowhere in general, we, the supporters of Type Moon, have decided to get it moving again and have it be re-done (for the third consecutive time). The topic, once again, being...vsbattles.com
The Root has been Tier 0 for months; it's just that its profile hasn't been updated... for some reason.
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
- 1,719
- Thread starter
- #89
Indeed. Another important distinction to bring up, that is a necessary addition. Dust of Osiris in Actress Again Current Code makes it clear that Shiki exists outside of the realm of predictions and such, and is the greatest singularity, with the addition that he is a threat to her predictions of the future for it to come to pass, thus she desires his extermination immediately. A general attribute of the MEoDP users, I'd reckon.
I'd consider it's Nasu dropping in references to OG works, which he does every so often now in Remake. Mind you, this is but a drop in the bucket with the addition of everything that's been stated so far related to Arcueid's mistake.
I'll back you up here, in case the argument arises with Kuramitsu from Kara no Kyoukai, who exists in DDD. Not only is this something that is a fake name on his part, based entirely on fictional entities, but they even say that Fate and Tsukihime worlds aren't connected to DDD in Character/Material.
It's also worth noting that both Sora no Soto (side story/volume 3 to DDD) and DDD itself are early Type-Moon works, dating as far back as 2004. It's not really reasonable to expect Nasu to have had the full cosmology of the verse mapped out two whole decades ago. These statements would carry a lot more weight if they came from something post-CCC or post-Tsukihime Remake, especially since the concept of the Celestial Egg itself originates from the drafts for Remake. That said, I don't think the statements being cited are particularly problematic, regardless.
Now, the concept of True Demons as discussed in DDD, hence why a murder case of someone with Agonist Disorder is mentioned in Oblivion Record, I do think that still holds up in modern Type-Moon lore. The broader implications and lore around aberrations and Demi-Fiend have remained consistent, and the concept of Fiends was referenced as recently as OC3 in the JP, if I'm remembering correctly. So that side of things hasn't been quietly discarded.
As for the DDD worlds themselves, though? All we really know is that they operate under the Affirmation of Human Weakness, which means they might be compatible with the Tsukihime worlds, as OG Tsukihime still operated in Fate worlds/now FSF worlds. But that's conjecture, with it relating to Tsukihime worlds at best. Nobody can actually prove that for DDD, as the work itself. And the idea that the specific laws governing DDD's world should be treated as logical to the mainline works is an even bigger leap; Nasu never states one to do so with this either.
Room of the April Witch is another good example of this issue. Its world doesn't neatly fit with anything that we know of and arguably shouldn't be expected to make sense alongside the PHH Tree of Time as we understand it.
For example, this is a profile I made on April, the witch from Room of the April Witch that I was going to propose later, not now though. One look at the profile, and you get what I mean to say.
A few DDD characters appearing in Ahnenerbe, which I'm certain would be brought up as a contention point, don't mean anything either, since it's stated that all of Type Moon's characters could interact freely in Ahnenerbe without worrying about setting off discrepancies.
Rather, we're told there are no rules for parallel worlds or anything of the sort. They all faded to irrelevance.
The drama CD mentioned in the quote is the very same one where DDD characters appear. I know what counterarguments they're going to use to possibly stonewall the thread in relation to DDD/Sora no Soto, something completely unrelated to the thread, so I'm nipping it in the bud ahead of time to save us all our precious time and effort.
That aside, good tracking skills, friend. I didn't mention your other quotes since it checks out regardless. Thank you.
Last edited:
Elesia011
He/Him- 136
- 197
They may be good, but you, in contrast, are in another league. You took your homework way too seriously, yikes. I sometimes feel useless in comparison, but I'll still help to the limits of my capabilities whenever required.
Elesia011
He/Him- 136
- 197
Nope, but if you absolutely are curious, I think locking you with Fergus could be a good idea.
- 1,659
- 834
Anakin and palpatine type stuff
- 8
- 7
How does a statement applying to normal Arcueid, apply to the one whose perception explicitly expanded, to the point of being called Almighty? Also, to the point where any possible error in her predictions would be an insult to the world itself.
Her name is even “Archetype:Earth” instead of “Arcueid Brunestud”, in Katatsuki Kohon, because of the barrier called body breaking and the egg manifesting on the surface.
The Priestess, is stated to be constantly omnipresent within the domain of CHALDEAS, recording everything. Being omnipresent is the same as recording all data. Divine Spirits employ this same principle.
So I choose 3. It doesn’t mean what you think it does.
While Archetype: Earth is defined as the "one who keeps the memories of the plane" , she explicitly demonstrates a lack of omniscience regarding human events. In fact, she is entirely ignorant of human customs like Valentine's Day and has to ask for explanations, admitting that her imagination has limits and that she doesn't know how to handle the situation. Furthermore, Kukulkan (an Archetype herself) openly admits to lacking common sense and knowledge, stating, "If I said 'I have no common sense in society!' I would cause trouble..." (社会常識ありません！なんて言ったら...).
Also, both Arcueid’s are shocked when A2 says she can make chocolate from scratch without using Marble Phantasm, or “cheating”, in their words. They know of the result, but not the process in which to make it. (Sound familiar?) A1, the soul of the planet, even gets frustrated after attempting to produce chocolate with her own hands and says to recount to her only the outcome of the scenario.
Archetype Earth (and Arcueid), has resistance to all Magecraft that reproduce results found within the planet’s soul itself. However, this resistance doesn’t apply to Shintoism, treasures from South America, or results entirely unique to human society, such as internet Magecraft, by her own admission.
And regardless, your interpretation requires ignoring the multitude of times they ARE called identical. The looming threat of CHALDEAS in the finale was that it was 100% accurate, so it was in danger of replacing the Earth. You’d be going against what stakes nasu has set up.
1. On Displacement Magecraft (置換魔術) and fooling the universe:
Da Vinci explains how two identical entities can be swapped without the universe noticing:
( "That's right. In the Magecraft world, there is something called displacement magecraft. For example, if there were a Goredolf A and a Goredolf B, and they had the exact same composition and amount of information, they could be swapped no matter how far apart they are. Why? Because, of course, from a third party's perspective, there is 'no difference' at all. Only those who were displaced know they were swapped. No, in some cases, even the individuals themselves might not know. Even though a supernatural event has occurred, there is no anomaly in the world. Under these conditions, magecraft works very well.")
2. On CHALDEAS being identical, and this is the reason it is able to swap despite its size:
Da Vinci explains that the physical size of the miniature model does not restrict the magecraft because the core data and soul composition are perfectly identical:
("Even though it is miniature, CHALDEAS is an 'identical existence' created by copying the Earth's soul. The difference in size isn't a big deal. If the amount of information and the composition of the soul are the same, they can be swapped.")
3. On the 2019 deadline and the transition from "Pseudo" to "Real":
Solomon uses the analogy of returning a counterfeit product to explain why the swap can only be reversed before CHALDEAS updates the universe and becomes the genuine Earth:
"'Swapping' is only possible while CHALDEAS is a 'pseudo-Earth model'. No matter how much it is an 'identical existence' that copied the Earth's soul, the fact that it is a pseudo-model cannot be changed. But if that pseudo-model becomes 'real', it's a different story. It's the same as merchandise. As long as it is a replica or a fake, you can return it. But when that replica becomes 'real', it cannot be returned. The universe will accept it as a fact. CHALDEAS becoming 'real'... no, it remains 'pseudo' only until 2019. Once 2019 passes, CHALDEAS will update the universe as the 'real' Earth.")
You are going off a misrepresentation of the lore, coming from a conflation between the planet's formless "soul" and its actualized "brain."
1. The "Soul" exists first, but the "Brain" (Archetype) requires the sapient species to be born.
While it is true that the "soul of the planet" existed before the celestial body was even born, the text makes a strict distinction between this primordial soul and the Archetype. The sources explicitly state that the "Archetype as a lifeform is actually born later" . How is it born? It is born precisely when the intelligent lifeforms (the sapient species) that sprouted on the planet mature and "dream" about what their essence looks like .
2. The Archetype is literally defined as the "Brain of the Planet" and cannot know its shape without intelligent life.
You claim the Archetype doesn't use the species to create a brain for itself. However, Da Vinci explicitly defines the Archetype as the "Brain of the Star" (星の頭脳体), noting that "since there's a heart, naturally there's a brain, right?".
The text states that despite being this supernatural "Brain of the ," the Archetype is "a troublesome child that cannot even know its own shape without an intelligent lifeform" [3]. Although it is the starting point of the planet's birth, its "mold" (金型) is only finally created during the mature period of a civilization . Furthermore, Nitocris corroborates this by stating that an Archetype is explicitly "made in the shape of the primate of that era" .
We see this exact mechanic in action with Kukulkan (Archetype: Mictlan/Earth). Before the concepts of Pan-Human History were introduced, she existed formlessly, merely as air that the Deinos could feel, much like the existence of the Priestess. It was only when the concepts of "God" and human knowledge were introduced that her intelligence dictated, "Gods are only born to intelligent humanoid humanity. We should follow that shape". Only then did she actively take on a physical, humanoid form. She did not possess this concrete vessel or operative "brain" shape beforehand.
You are isolating the fact that the planet's soul exists from the beginning, while ignoring the explicit text stating that the actual lifeform—the "Brain of the Planet", is entirely dependent on the sapient species. The Archetype does not spontaneously generate its own active shape or brain in a vacuum; it absolutely requires the dreams, concepts, and maturity of the intelligent lifeforms to provide the "mold" for its existence .
Hakuno, who lives in SE.RA.PH, sent out an Archetype into space in ~3000. The Earth was irreversibly damaged in Extra, down to the core.
BB had enough processing power to create an entirely new celestial body, and become the Archetype of the Moon via her skill.
If you didn’t realize, Arcueid did not understand emotions either, and had to be taught.
The future is anything BUT deterministic in the TM world. If you read Mirai Fukuin (or anything else touching the subject), you’d know this.
All futures exist in a state of uncertainty, and technically do not exist yet. When proven, all other possibilities collapse.
Human actions, Karma, forms existence in 8 layers.
What Araya sought was this same karma.
So observing Karma is the same as observing all things.
In case you didn’t know, the CM doesn’t, and cannot exist in Extra. Due to this,the Brain of the Earth cannot exist, and neither can any True Ancestors, by your logic, as the Earth cannot use the Crimson Moon as a template. So why then, does Arcueid exist in extra? Well, Extra Material grants us 1 possibility.
A creation of the Mooncell, that can still function as an Archetype.
Holy shit, what?
Also, ORT exerts extreme stress to the earth just by MOVING. Does this change anything, really?
Last edited:
- 8
- 7
hey, he did it first
- 90
- 50
Just gonna add some comments on the "debunk" cuz why not.
Here's Mash saying it is impossible to recreate it via normal means and Sherlock stating Maris Chaldeas only copied the "appearance" of the Root, likening her to "putting the Root infront of a mirror".
She didn't create it, Humanity did and never was it stated to be a Celestial Object in the first place. The closest descriptor was that it was referred to as a "Artificial Moon".
Here's Mash saying it is impossible to recreate it via normal means and Sherlock stating Maris Chaldeas only copied the "appearance" of the Root, likening her to "putting the Root infront of a mirror".
She didn't create it, Humanity did and never was it stated to be a Celestial Object in the first place. The closest descriptor was that it was referred to as a "Artificial Moon".
- 8
- 7
How do you explain Caubac Alcatraz, creating a perfect model case of the universe, and is stated by nasu to be a perfect idol of God?
I sentence you to 6 or 7 years of “reading the source material”
○ Lagrange Luxury: EX
LL. An artificial celestial body created to eternally observe the Earth and Moon, named after the Lagrange points. Though it wasn't built in normal space, it seems to exist in Imaginary Number Space. Originally massive, it has been miniaturized and used as an accessory for BB Dubai, thanks to some mysterious technology called "Perspective Realism Ether Lens." This ability applies a debuff to all enemies, exploiting the gravitational differences between the Earth and the Moon.
○ Golden Capital of the Moon: EX
A mega skill acquired through the fusion of the BB created on the Moon (Moon Cell) and the BB created on Earth (by humanity). By temporarily becoming the Moon's Brain, she gains the ability to freely alter the lunar surface.
- 8
- 7
Its mere inclusion in Character Material, a Type-Moon setting book officially, makes it part of that setting.
- 1,659
- 834
Shin about to 1v2 shi is gonna get insane 
- 90
- 50
1. Caebuc was writing down a book about God's love which is everywhere in the universe due to Caebuc equating us being alive = God is real. I doubt he literally wrote another universe into existence.
I doubt that Nasu was referring to a physical model, but rather a conceptual model, which supports my initial claim.
2. Hibiki being a "perfect Idol of God" is contradicted by the fact that she takes a human form later on and that she's supposedly "proof" that God doesn't exist, which then leads to Caebuc having a mental breakdown.
Combined with the fact that Nasu is being rhetorical and vague when describing Hibiki makes me believe she isn't a literal physical universe.
You're so funny. I read through 8+ hours of OC3 content and never is it implied that LL is a construct that is 1-to-1 with the actual moon in terms of function nor content.
What does this prove? Literally nothing. It's only function is to act as a observer and a power source for traversing Outer Space.
- 30
- 5
Anything related to "souls" (like some supposedly being "eternal in the material world") could simply be hand waved by it being related to and partially managed by the Root, so, just like the Flame Imperishable, would potentially fall outside the normal context/be partial smurf hax or resistance.
It is also important to remember that there are alternate explanations and that flowery language isn't limited to Xianxia, especially when the author might simply try to digest the latest pop science or philosophical fad he might have read. Of which there have been a lot over the last few years, decades, let alone the hundreds or thousand years before.
It is also important to remember that there are alternate explanations and that flowery language isn't limited to Xianxia, especially when the author might simply try to digest the latest pop science or philosophical fad he might have read. Of which there have been a lot over the last few years, decades, let alone the hundreds or thousand years before.
Last edited:
Elesia011
He/Him- 136
- 197
Did you read my comment and the supporting precision Shin later gave linking back to my original comment? If anything, you are trying to play tricks on weak minds. The fact that a prediction of hers being false would amount to an insult to the world instead reinforces that at that point she should be all-knowing according to the narrative itself. I don't see a problem here. Assuming your logic holds, why wouldn't it be a feat for Shiki instead of an anti-feat for Arcueid? Shin already clarified in case you are still going to "play blind" to the context I originally gave—that Shiki is a singularity outside of predictions altogether.
You are just capping when it comes to Kukulkan. Once again, there is context behind it. You called her an Archetype, but it would be a huge help if you could further expand on that matter, as Dino Arcueid is the actual Archetype in Lostbelt 7, having adopted a Deinos form. As for Kuku, she is indeed also an Archetype, but I won't expand on that as it's on you to explain yourself.
Regarding this specific comment of yours:
"Kukulkan (an Archetype herself) openly admits to lacking common sense and knowledge, stating, 'If I said "I have no common sense in society!" I would cause trouble...'"
I don't buy it. You'd better be credible in your takes rather than just faking it. Adding context: Kuku's lacking of knowledge comes principally from the culture of PHH (Proper Human History), as it's different from her Lostbelt world. She doesn't even have the same scale of authority as Arcueid since her Luminary form doesn't borrow magical power from the Inner Sea of the Planet but merely from a single continent.
Now, for Arcueid's case, are we going to let chocolate matters become a problem? You are basically framing "Arcueid" as not knowing how to make chocolate by saying she is surprised that "Arcueid" herself can make chocolate but not "Arcueid" and that somehow is an anti-feat to omniscience?
Firstly, the Servant Arcueid does not amount to her Luminary self. She has a Saint Graph as a frame, not the Celestial Egg.
Moreover, I'm not diving into an explanation about Servants being pseudo‑copies or aspects of their true selves granted limited knowledge about their current era of manifestation. But it is noteworthy to take into account that Arcueid calls herself weaker because she is now a Servant. Imagine taking things once again out of context when said Arcueid explicitly explains she don't have the authority you frame as limited by taking her experiences as example.
「星の魂、その原型───という位置付けではあるが、サーヴァントである以上、そこまでの権限は無い……。せいぜい指先で嵐を起こし、爪先で地を揺らす程度だ……。つまらぬだろう？」
My rightful place is to be the prototype of the planet's soul... But while I am a Servant, I lack that Authority.
All I can do is create storms with my fingers and earthquakes with my toes.
How unexciting, don't you agree?
Source: My room lines bond level 4
This wouldn't even be all, because Arcueid, whether in FGO or Tsukihime, makes a distinction between herself in the Inner Sea (the dreamer) and herself on the surface (the subject of the dream).
As a matter of advice, the credibility of your points drops even further when you base them on scenarios constrained by Parallel World theory, as opposed to the Inner Sea, which is disconnected from and transcends even that. This means most of your points are always targeting the "subject of the dream" rather than the dreamer itself.
Do you even realize this thing is only true about Arcueid's physical vessel at 30% of its power, no? The invulnerability statement comes from the Archetype herself and applies also to the Luminary form alone. We aren't that blind to nitpicking.
On a side note, those things wouldn't even work on her to the same degree as the MEoDP did. And for the record, she survived that, and after experiencing such arcana you mentioned, she would effectively become invulnerable to them even for her physical vessel.
You are being delusional again. Though you are right on some things, what's copied is literally just the surface and not the essence. It's literally the main plot of the final Lostbelt. Marisbury thinks the form matters more than the essence, and that's what he made with Earth, as it's impossible to completely replicate.
Thanks also for your explanations on swapping, because firstly that only concerns the Human Texture, and secondly the surfaces of the two Earths weren't even the same. The whole bleaching event was to match the two Earths' surfaces (being bleached) for the swapping to even be possible.
From here on, either Shin will complete the job, or I will come and finish what I started later.
this is too long, you should have devised this into separate parts, unless you uhm, wanted people to instantly agree with you without bothering to actually look at the stuff, with all respect of course.
For now I don't have a solid opinion, I'll need some time to figure this out.
For now I don't have a solid opinion, I'll need some time to figure this out.
- 8
- 7
Is this because he’s a MEODP user? Ryougi Shiki can still be included in future predictions regardless of this, and they come to pass before she kills Kamekura’s eyes.
She explicitly attributes her ignorance of the outside world to her sheltered existence in the Inner Sea of the Planet, but affirms her planetary perception remains fully intact.
＠C：アーキタイプ：アース "星の内海から外の世界を知らないとはいえ、私はアーキタイプ：アース。星の記憶を預かるもの。"
The True Ancestor Princess (A1) is the source of all other Arcueid’s, and at least in the valentines event, that quality has not diminished in the slightest, as she speaks of herself in the present tense. She is still acting as the dreaming stone.
She establishes herself not as a restricted servant, but as the underlying foundation of their vessel.
＠真祖の姫 "貴様たちはいわば器によって育った理性。私は器を作る際、原型になったもの。"
Kukulkan explicitly has the same scale of Existence. The outputting a continent thing is because that is how far her celestial body, the comet Malla, spread. She’d be getting energy from its soul.
Last edited:
- 1,237
- 1,145
Is this thing about Marshadow real or just a bit? Isn't the user banned (including but not limited to because of sockpuppeting)?
Last edited:
- 8
- 7
My mobile device decides to collectively shit itself , so I'll put the rest of my reply here.
Arcueid doesn't even have a complete immunity to Magecraft, the effectiveness of any given spell is just greatly reduced. Which is good, but it's not immunity.
Magic and sacraments are just imitations and reproductions of things that can happen on this planet, right? So, they don't really work on me, the original source. On the other hand, insidious curses that only exist in human society might work because they're rare... Maybe there's a chance I could be affected by things that are looked down upon in the world of magic, like internet magic or modern magic?
"Both magecraft and sacraments are just humans imitating and reproducing phenomena that can happen on this planet, right? Because of that, they don't really work on me, since I'm the original source. On the flip side, insidious curses born entirely out of human society might actually do the trick since they're so rare to me... The kind of stuff the magical world looks down on, like internet magic or modern magecraft, might actually stand a chance against me, you know?"
You conflate his ideology with the actual construction of CHALDEAS. It is entirely false that he only copied the surface of the Earth.
You can completely copy a file on a computer without actually looking inside of it. Same deal here.
The bleaching event was indeed orchestrated so that both Earths would have matching surfaces. Marisbury himself states: "Both your Earth and the CHALDEAS Earth. Both needed to have their surfaces swept clean once. Making them have as similar a history and result as possible increases the success rate of the swap. If only the civilization of the CHALDEAS Earth was reset, the replacement with your Earth would not have been established".
However, the fact that the surfaces (the textures) were swapped does not mean CHALDEAS is just a surface. In fact, the swap of the surfaces is only physically possible because the underlying "essence" (the soul) is a perfect match. Da Vinci explicitly shuts down the idea that CHALDEAS is a lesser replica that lacks the Earth's true essence:
Marisbury did not "only copy the surface because it's impossible to completely replicate the Earth." He successfully replicated the literal soul of the Earth to create an identical existence. The Bleaching was required to match the surfaces/history of these two identical souls so that the final texture swap would successfully take hold.
Arcueid doesn't even have a complete immunity to Magecraft, the effectiveness of any given spell is just greatly reduced. Which is good, but it's not immunity.
Magic and sacraments are just imitations and reproductions of things that can happen on this planet, right? So, they don't really work on me, the original source. On the other hand, insidious curses that only exist in human society might work because they're rare... Maybe there's a chance I could be affected by things that are looked down upon in the world of magic, like internet magic or modern magic?
"Both magecraft and sacraments are just humans imitating and reproducing phenomena that can happen on this planet, right? Because of that, they don't really work on me, since I'm the original source. On the flip side, insidious curses born entirely out of human society might actually do the trick since they're so rare to me... The kind of stuff the magical world looks down on, like internet magic or modern magecraft, might actually stand a chance against me, you know?"
You conflate his ideology with the actual construction of CHALDEAS. It is entirely false that he only copied the surface of the Earth.
- It is true that Marisbury operates on a philosophy where "form matters more than essence." The Alien Priestess (?) states that to him, "if there is a thin outer appearance, the inside is not necessary" . Olga Marie notes his ideology is that "things with contents are fakes" and Holmes points out that Marisbury "didn't feel the need for contents. If they could shortcut, the process was unnecessary".
- However, to achieve his "results," he absolutely had to copy the essence of the planet. Olga Marie explicitly defines CHALDEAS not as a copied surface, but as "a miniature Earth created by copying that soul".
- Sherlock Holmes further clarifies this process: Marisbury connected the souls of 128 Masters to the Earth to confirm that the Earth's soul existed. Then, "the Earth's soul was copied without even understanding its structure, becoming the pseudo-Earth model CHALDEAS". Therefore, Marisbury didn't care about understanding the essence (the process/contents), but he literally copied the planet's soul itself to make his replica.
You can completely copy a file on a computer without actually looking inside of it. Same deal here.
The bleaching event was indeed orchestrated so that both Earths would have matching surfaces. Marisbury himself states: "Both your Earth and the CHALDEAS Earth. Both needed to have their surfaces swept clean once. Making them have as similar a history and result as possible increases the success rate of the swap. If only the civilization of the CHALDEAS Earth was reset, the replacement with your Earth would not have been established".
However, the fact that the surfaces (the textures) were swapped does not mean CHALDEAS is just a surface. In fact, the swap of the surfaces is only physically possible because the underlying "essence" (the soul) is a perfect match. Da Vinci explicitly shuts down the idea that CHALDEAS is a lesser replica that lacks the Earth's true essence:
Marisbury did not "only copy the surface because it's impossible to completely replicate the Earth." He successfully replicated the literal soul of the Earth to create an identical existence. The Bleaching was required to match the surfaces/history of these two identical souls so that the final texture swap would successfully take hold.
- 8
- 7
CHALDEAS even has abilities exclusive to the Soul of the Earth, such as event storage, and can deploy it at the exact planetary scale that Lumi-Arc and Hime can.
1. On discovering the frozen 2017 civilization and identifying it as an unprecedented scale of event storage using the "World Egg" theory:
Nasu when asked about what the bleach earth would look like, even says that “it’d be the same as Luminary Arc.”
1. On discovering the frozen 2017 civilization and identifying it as an unprecedented scale of event storage using the "World Egg" theory:
Nasu when asked about what the bleach earth would look like, even says that “it’d be the same as Luminary Arc.”
- 1,659
- 834
Killing me why is this here
Last edited by a moderator:
- 6,547
- 6,297
Deleted the troll post and edited yours.
Elesia011
He/Him- 136
- 197
Well, Mitsuru's ability is to change the future from chaotic to deterministic once he observes it.
It was like a test’s answer sheet with all the blanks filled in.As soon as the future is seen, the measures necessary to fulfill it are projected in his left eye.As long as he acts according to that image, the film playing in his right eye will alwaysbecome the unchangeable future.
Now guess what ? Mitsuru couldn't see Ryougi with his righ eye at all and even had to ascertain if he could kill her. What happened next, you know—even locking the future couldn't restrain Ryougi Shiki, and because she killed a future which was supposed to be immutable, Kuramitsu lost his right eye to cope with the contradiction born from that event. And at last, even if the Ryougi case was actually wrong, it wouldn't change the fact that Tohno is a singularity outside of predictability, and that's what matters at the moment.
Honestly, I don’t get your point here. I already explicitly showed you that she doesn’t have omniscience as a Servant, and that such a thing would be exclusive to her true form (with the Celestial Egg as a frame). And yet, if you were being fair, you would have taken into account that Servants are inherently limited to information concerning the current era in which they operate, with the rest being filtered out.
She literally is not. She views herself as one of the dreams themselves, and frankly speaking, that can't even hold because Servants are pseudo‑copies of their true selves, while you are equating the Servant to the real thing. It just doesn't add up. Think about it further.
偉大な功績が死後伝説として信仰の対象となった者を英霊と呼ぶ。彼らの魂は「英霊の座」といわれる場所に存在しその英霊を呼び出すことができるのは「世界」のみである。儀式によってこの場所から召喚されるのはあくまで「英霊の分身」であり、彼らこそがサーヴァントと呼ばれる存在だ。マスターとして選ばれた魔術師たちは、聖杯のバックアップを受けることで彼らを現世へと召喚することができる。
Heroic spirits are individuals enshrined or worshipped in legends after their death in the mortal world. What can be thought of as a heroic spirit’s “main body” resides in the Throne of Heroes, and can only be summoned by the World. A Servant is merely an “emanation” or pseudo-copy of a heroic spirit’s main body, summoned by ritual. Magus selected as Masters are only capable of summoning a Servant with the aid of the Holy Grail.
Now read back your own statement again but this time slower
Now how does your quote even match your affirmations when it's obvious she speaks of ignorance in terms of experience (as she does not leave the Inner Sea), but later says she keeps the record of the planet which includes every information related to the surface? What this text explains is that even if she cannot directly experience what happens at the surface, as the incredible recorder she knows everything from within the inner sea.＠C：アーキタイプ：アース "星の内海から外の世界を知らないとはいえ、私はアーキタイプ：アース。星の記憶を預かるもの。"
Ah yes, there is also the fact she distinguishes herself from the version on the surface once more, referring to herself as one of her many dreams.
Nah, stop the cap. Even her backup from the planet is rank D as a Servant, and she once again explicitly says she lacks authority as a Servant in her My Room bond 4 line, as I already sent in the previous message.
○原初の一：Ｄ
地球からのバックアップを受け、敵対した相手より一段階上の出力、存在規模を獲得する。……のだが、筐体が世界卵ではなく霊基であるため、十全に発揮できないようだ。戦闘中、各種ステータスを必要に応じて１～２ランクアップするに留まる。
Ultimate One: D
Receives backup from the earth, enabling her to increase her personal scale and wield more power against her opponent. The only problem is, she apparently can't do so very effectively, since her current vessel is a Spirit Origin rather than a world egg. At best, this skill can boost the stats she needs in a given battle by one to two ranks.
Thanks, because this proves you acknowledge yourself that your point misses the mark. You yourself implied that Kuku doesn't receive information from the Earth's soul, but from something local within a texture under the jurisdiction of the actual planet. This connects to how her ignorance stems from anything outside the reach of the Deinos era (such as PHH), and hence Kuku was only all‑knowing in your brain alone to start with.
I missed the moment this point invalidates a statement she made as an Archetype, as such things are only true for her physical vessel. When she sheds it off, she becomes almighty to the point of being called a perfect being which not even the MEoDP can kill. And that's like one of the most potent hax in the Nasuverse?
And for modern magecraft and supernatural phenomena born from humanity, we already know that's false. Not only Arcueid, but all mystical beings are immune to mysteries inferior to them. Modern magecraft is so weak that even mere servant are immune to it. For a deeper explanation, it's because modern magecraft is a system that doesn't rely on gods as a proxy anymore to enact phenomena and thus is vastly weaker in consequence, as it relies on knowledge for its foundation.
Let me use your own analogy here. You declare it's possible to copy a file on a computer without needing to open it, yeah? That analogy is full of holes, because the system can't duplicate what it doesn't understand. Data is decomposed into packets for transmission to the destination folder and reassembled.
Now here is where the last notes I sent to you come in handy. We are both agreeing on Marisbury's ideology to prioritize the form rather than the substance, but in the excerpts I sent you, it's said he literally can't fully copy (a thing you claim to have happened, but you switch stances with soul rather than planet at any moment you feel like it).
Next, remember this passage exists:
"Animusphere thought that it was impossible to create an 'existence identical to the Earth' from scratch."
Hence, you saying, "He successfully replicated the literal soul of the Earth to create an identical existence" is complete fanfiction that challenges Marisbury's own thought about Earth's existence being impossible to replicate.
And now next, the text follows with:
"but it would be possible to copy the soul in its entirety, and he put this in practice. Of course, the content of the 'file' cannot be analyzed even if the copy is successful, however, what's important is the surface of the 'copied file.'"
You understand why they say, "however, what's important is the surface of the 'copied file.'" That's specifically because the internal workings don't matter; it will operate as the real thing even without having its substance, and that's more in line with Marisbury's ideology. And Goetia calls it a fake simulated replica where, I guess, you instead read "perfect replica,". That's not even all but chaldeas profile explicitely says it's interior is hollow
……が、それはあくまで表面上のもの。
本質は位相の違うもう一つの地球であり、その内面は完全に空洞であり、地球（本物）をカルデアス（仮説）に換える為の異聞分岐帯だった。
But, that was just on the surface.
Its true essence was another Earth in a different phase, its contents being completely hollow, a Lost Divergent Belt to replace the Earth (real) with Chaldeas (abstract).
They didn’t 『create a planet』, it’d be correct to say that they paradoxically 『created a Universe with only one planet』.
You know what's funny about what I quoted? It's that it's from the exact same text you took this from to make this argument:
- Sherlock Holmes further clarifies this process: Marisbury connected the souls of 128 Masters to the Earth to confirm that the Earth's soul existed. Then, "the Earth's soul was copied without even understanding its structure, becoming the pseudo-Earth model CHALDEAS". Therefore, Marisbury didn't care about understanding the essence (the process/contents), but he literally copied the planet's soul itself to make his replica. "
Elesia011
He/Him- 136
- 197
Please can't the staff just evaluate the CRT? @AgonistDisorder is obviously stalling the whole CRT on purpose and doesn't even put in the effort.
- 52,577
- 46,787
That shit is like 18.4 K words. That is a fully fledged short story for just a CRT, removing the fact you have to check links and the TLs in said links.
I want some of whatever you're smoking.
Zanesucksatlife
Any/All- 1,143
- 1,183
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 604
- 1,719
- Thread starter
- #119
Marshadow, you were asked simple questions, and you avoided those simple questions. So I'll prevent you from deviating further into other scans until you can progress from this textual tension.
I've already explained "omniscience" here to just be self-contemplation, which the avatar doesn't possess to the same degree as the Celestial Egg does. But let's get your commitments clear here, Marshadow, since you like using a roundabout way to nitpick statements in the source material by isolating context.
Too long, didn't read? Let me list this out for you to start gearing your brains out, hopefully.
- What do you make of the statements of the Archetype being stated to have knowledge of the history of all life on the Planet, even before it's born? And Stated by Kukulkan and in LB7? What about it being self-contemplative and therefore unchanging and omniscient? And its mode of cognition is being compared to thoughts in objective stasis? And Maris cannot be any of this? What are your commitments to these statements, Marshadow?
- Going by this logic, then also, do you think the Root was copied, and Maris has some absolute identity relation with the Root? If so, what are your commitments to statements opposed to this notion? Like: it Root being Existence simpliciter, the beginning and end of everything, and the cause of all causes as causal overflow: where causes outpour all 5 years ago? And it being a self-identical flow and where all things dissolve into the nothingness that sprang forth from, all 6 years ago? If it's purely a self-identical flow, the beginning and end of everything, that which all things appear dream-like to it, that which is beyond attributes and predication. And we understand that causation is asymmetrically complex outward and by extension simple inward. Because, as Arcueid says, the reason why all things can't return to the Root is that they are too 'complex', hence if everything from the Root tends to complexity, then the Root tends towards simplicity. Then how can it have an absolute identity relation with anything, let alone something that uses computational power? What are your commitments to these statements, Marshadow?
Marshadow, I asked you a question. What are your commitments to these statements I've laid forth? I absolutely have no problem responding to any of your statements until you respond to mine. You proposed alternative scans to create tension between them and my scans; instead of actually proposing a way to synthesise the scans in tension, you'd rather avoid that responsibility and deviate into further scans. None of this is productive, and you precisely know why you refuse to put in the effort to resolve statements that appear to be in the least bit of tension.
All of your arguments hinge on ignoring statements to nitpick a few; when the opponent calls you out on that, you deviate to other statements and try to say the opponent is also ignoring statements. Then, suppose we're both ignoring statements, how productive is it to continue sending scans more instead of actually providing a substantial rebuttal to interpretations and the scans being used in an interpretation that's opposed to yours?
These are writers who have longed since used tensions and apparent contradictions as powerful expressive tools thematically and narratively.
For as long as Kara no Kyoukai. Where the continued tension between dualities was a prevalent part of the story's themes, conflicts and character development.
Even for something as simple as "boundaries", with the question "what determines boundaries if it is not a subject, perceiving an object or subject external to it". And if that were the case, wouldn't the world be composed of empty boundaries (kara no kyoukai)? Because if the external determined boundaries, then boundaries never existed to begin with, but things intelligent creatures naturally created through layers of abstractions.
In Murder Speculation
Shiki losing another portion of her dual personality, her yang: SHIKI.
Which is noted to cause her to stop growing physically, a direct result of the tension between her yin and yang.
Directly rooted in Taijitu, because yang is associated with movement and dynamism, it naturally grows. And the end to that tension of opposites also prompts Shiki to feel empty, and she eventually comes to be 'filled' up as requested by Touko after finding out Shiki had different personalities in search of why she stopped ageing:
By Mikiya Kokutou, because her yang was the only thing preventing Shiki from getting with Mikiya, as it made her feel insecure about her own sanity. And Shiki himself wanted to kill Mikiya, to prevent Shiki from ceasing to exist as an enclosed and independent system, not something that can be interfered with by another human:
Incidentally, Yang happens to be associated with masculine traits and represents the male. And this archetype is expressed in another yang; Mikiya, being the one to fulfil Shiki (yin) once more after she loses her personality:
This sentiment comes to be expressed way later, after several arcs.
In Spiral Paradox, reality is likened to a spiral of tensions (dualities) transitioning into one another, reaching synthesis as further objects become divided and more attributes can be contained:
The contradiction that initiates karma is only relevant to humanity, which is composed of Alaya-Vijnana. A contradiction so primitive that it was the deciding factor between whether or not one overcomes the wall of duality to reach the Root:
A text that does heavy lifting in explaining causation in logical, not temporal terms. So instead of "the Root creates the world", it is that the human domain pursues "life", not "completion", because in completion the meaning of life ceases to be. And Arcueid suggests that things are too complex to return to the original Source, so the original Source doesn't "create the world", but it is the world that distances itself from the Root. Because we understand that the Root has no will nor deliberation, it is just where all things 'flow'.
It is also described as a 'contradictory' spiral of everything and nothing, the most contradictory thing in fact of Type Moon cosmology. Because it is the synthesis of all tensions, of itself and reality:
And therefore, where, because everything is determined and set (in other words, complete), nothing exists. All causes spiral together there, and connect into that non-complex source that is before attributes, because attributes exist only when the precondition that is division comes to be:
And later recited by the [Shiki Ryougi]:
The two-form yin-yang contains the greatest number of attributes unified within two modes of existence; thereafter, there's none that contains any more attributes. Because the source is prior to duality, and the precondition for duality:
As what proceeds from the Root is divided into two, yin and yang.
Consequently, accumulating immeasurable complexity of attributes cannot reach the Swirl of the Root:
A paradox/tension of chasing omnipotence. Whereby, in pursuit of omnipotence, the addition of attributes and accumulation of many different systems are used to reproduce magecraft. Modern humanity has effectively diverged further from the source. Now, I don't expect you to understand this much. But an example of causation being not about time, but about logical, ontological priority and primacy. If complex things exist, then they are an aggregate of something much simpler and prior.
These are the tensions you should be grappling with as a Type Moon reader. Now stop pretending as if these aren't the driving force of the plot in Type Moon, and understanding of it requires synthesising the tension. This is nothing new. The Planet's feelings towards humanity are described intentionally in contradictory terms as well, in Fate/Grand Order ordeal call III and Tsukihime. In Fate/Grand Order, it is said that the Planet permits mankind to exist unconditionally because it operates as a logical system, not with passions like feelings and anger. And only shortly after that, that description is contradicted by a conjecture that poses the question, "according to whom?"
And then it suggests that the planet actually holds a sense of resentment for humanity, after the original Sin.
You just continue to do this, switching the burden of explicating on your own commitments. On top of shifting the burden of resolving the very tension you always propose, to any arguments and scans opposed to yours. So I would like for everyone to calm down, and we just wait for Marshadow's understanding of those scans and arguments. In a manner that's internally consistent and doesn't hinge on dragging the infantilising writers, by dragging them down to the intelligence level of readers.
It's always easier for an incompetent reader to say a writer is just inconsistent, instead of resolving the apparent textual tension between two statements in tension. Your time for excuses is done. Type Moon gives you tensions to resolve. Propose your resolution to the tension of those statements; however, if you didn't understand even this much after having had all of these years of reading Type-Moon. Then even this might prove to be pointless. Maybe it's just in your innate nature to find comfort in dragging the intelligence of writers down to your level.
If you were already wrong about how causation occurs in Type Moon, and thought the Root was genuinely spatial. What else could you have been wrong about? How else can you confuse temporal causation with gradation in ontology? Surely it can be blamed on nothing but your inability to understand nuance.
Stop deviating from your responsibility; you tried to propose rebuttals by avoiding engagement with the contents of my argument. But taking a roundabout shortcut, by sending separate scans that seem to possess a sliver of tension towards mine. You create more problems in arguments than work towards a resolution in arguments because of that cowardice.
Now respond with substance precisely to everything I've asked, ignore the proposal now, and work towards providing a sufficient resolution to the tension between those statements. Stop deviating. I gave you your final chance. If you can't do this, I'll just use this as further evidence in HR of you always arguing in bad faith. None of what I said is even new; this has been a cycle. Well, besides showing HR you admitting to being Marshadow.
At the very least, people can finally see who you are, unless you surprise me by actually responding to this time. I'll look forward to your next response. I won't be addressing anything you've completely said for now. I want to first get through this, so that you and I can have a more productive conversation. If you're even capable of that.
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
