Type Moon Revival CRT relating high tiers and a few current relevant profiles - Part 1

[Theglassman12]

@Reiner04 He does have the rights, otherwise I wouldn't have noticed him @ me

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

We slow as shizz rip

I think the plan was to wait for another thread to add the abilities to the Root, and then the tiering would be updated. Yeah, I have no idea why that happened either.

@Reiner04 He does have the rights, otherwise I wouldn't have noticed him @ me

I guess @DaReaperMan is just that guy.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I put the CRT into grok and asked if it agreed or disagreed and it disagreed so I have to disagree.

I probably wont reply further but the CRT looks well put together and I'll take a deeper look into this behemoth.

 

[Ferno1234]

Dimensions will be considered not on the basis of arbitrary ordering nor necessary inherence to mathematical structure (topology, geometry, topos and the like). But considering what grade of ontology constitutes them, this will be shown to be extremely relevant later on, as a motivation for representing certain realms as they ought to be.

From what i'm seeing and understand, this is proposing that the difference between geometric dimensions(which is something that participates/is a part of a composite reality) in the verse is actually ontological?

If so, then what is the basic structure of reality? Is even the difference between 1D and 2D is ontological in nature?

Then how do the things existing in reality have any cohrenece?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Wait when Dreaperman became staff. Congrats tho @DaReaperMan .

A few days ago while I was asleep. But this is derailing, so Congratulations go to my wall, though appreciated.

 

[Reiner04]

Deleted some unnecessary comments, including my own, click the watch to follow up thread.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

What layers are each of the Tiers?

For the time being, the layers are baseline 1-A, but only for now.

---

Regarding the post itself at the moment, the thread being split into further parts without disordering the evidence for the proposals wouldn't be as easy, since intertextuality is prevalent in Type-Moon. Most of the scans and explanations, unfortunately co-relate to one another. I will spoiler chunks of the post to make it more approachable, though, as you said.

---

Anyway, responding to this

If so, then what is the basic structure of reality? Is even the difference between 1D and 2D is ontological in nature?

This being all context-dependent was the point, so the question itself is loaded. Now, regarding how things have 'coherence', that has nothing to do with material mediums, which is something I also explain in the thread. Coherence solely depends on consciousness and the scale of the 'conscious' agent, of which, thereafter, the material comes to be emergent. I can't say for sure what other Celestial Bodies would have in terms of their surface texture, but that's also none of my concern since 99.99% of the story takes place in our Celestial Body, with the rest being directly inside the Root.

At this point in time, I have my doubts, yes, but I have not voiced any sort of vote for or against on the proposal yet.

As I said, I'll wait for other knowledgeable staff to weigh in to gain more insight and make a more concrete opinion on the matter.

Since you said you haven't voiced any vote, that's fine, but honestly, I'm not sure what's there to disagree with or have doubts on, to be honest. All of this is baked into the power system; it's either that or the Root is unfortunately not Tier 0, which wouldn't even make sense. The entire Inner Sea is True Magic, and the point of True Magic is non-dual recognition, which turns everything that can be accounted for not only logically but scientifically into something unqualifiable under those terms.

You can't have space-time in a topological sense, because both notions are extensional. For those to make sense, there has to be subject and object separation, of which, otherwise, coordinates have no meaning. You can't ask "where" because the question dualises the subject, nor when because that question also dualises the subject.

An unreachable utopia that no wiser beasts could hope to attain. A world that shares no ties with the decline and destruction on the face of the planet that continues to repeat itself like a loop. A faraway foreign realm that nestled very close to human history, yet bore no relationship with them. Its name is Avalon. The inner sea of the planet.

That's the entire point of the Inner Sea being "unreachable from any intelligent beast", because intelligent beasts like humans think in dualistic terms. And because reality is fundamentally based on consciousness, higher psychic channels (what they are called in KNK) are the foundation of lower ones. So physics begins with a downstream of a conscious entity that doesn't think in extensional terms like "where am I" and "when am I"

Memory was not forgotten, but rather, it had been damaged. In that case, there is only one method. It is not to trace the past remembered by an individual, but to trace the phenomena recorded by the world itself. Fortunately, I had the necessary technique to do so. However, it doesn't work. An observer cannot observe themselves as the subject. One cannot shake hands with themselves; that's just how humans are.

It solely looks at itself, through itself as both the "I" and "You", so there's no "where" for it to begin with. There's no figure within it external to it, to begin a consciousness experience of spatial 'distance' and therefore extension, between two conscious agents, because all that exists in its reality is just it. So either mysteries would have to not be mysteries, which is the entire point of the Root being apophatic, to begin considering that it is called the "mystery of mystery", or unless the Root is just not Tier 0 because it exemplifies everything the Planet does, but to a higher level.

-Time stopped.Position lost all meaning.It appeared as if the rigorous certainty of space and time itself had been lost

All of the descriptions there, even explicitly ones like this, are intrinsically for the Inner Sea and described that way, because of how the power system is. Stuff like space and time only emerge after the Original Sin when Mankind separates from the world, which creates not only the illusion of "I" and "the world" but "I" and "we". Both of which become the basis for the emergence of the laws of physics within the material world, because for those laws any spatial extension in geometry needs to be defined, they first need that duality. True Magic is beyond that; that's why its manifestation above is outright stated to suspend not only the entire material world, but also suspend/dissolve the meaning of coordinates/position and time.

This is also why people 'shed' their bodies before going into it, because the only thing that defines the difference between things is what concept they represent, not "where" they exist. So yes, because for one, the Celestial Egg is entirely self-contemplative, it is entirely aspatial and atemporal. Because it is entirely self-contemplative (self-contemplation here being a requirement to reach the Root and use True Magic), it is also a mystery. And no matter how hard you cash it out, to be a mystery and True Magic itself means to be unqualified by the means of human cognition and their intuitions. Which would include spatiotemporal intuitions, as explicated beforehand. Because a mystery is just as real as a conscious agent regards it as, because to begin, a conscious agent defines everything.

Literally the only reason why Aoko likens True Magic to be like 'overcoming a wall of dimensions' is that all of those things, as understood by mankind, need a type of recognition that is already downstream of True Magic

The only reason why this thread is even that long was because it was intended to be read entirely holistically. Because intertextuality is prevalent in Type-Moon, as I stated above, you can only get a sufficient justification for all proposals through all of the justifications of the proposal. And the relation they are cashed out, to have with one another. I systematically explain first how

• The Inner Sea and its inhabitants are self-contemplative (with its inhabitants only being differentiated by the generality of the principles they are and embody)
• How True Magic unifies the phenomenological distinction between mediation and immediacy, and by extension, subject and object.
• Why that would be beyond the extensional parts (parts extended mathematically through coordinates)

The explanation for how Aoko reached the Root is also an extremely important piece of information here, because it begins by abstaining from thoughts and the external world. So the only real way for True Magic, as a mirror of the Root, not to be 1-A is if the Root itself was not 1-A, let alone Tier 0.

Conversely, the only reason why it is not Tier 0, too, is because the depth of effects that True Magic can reproduce varies, with some being greater than others, but the basis for them is the same: non-dual recognition. If the Planet already dreaming all things into existence, it wasn't enough. Then there was a continuation to explain how the consciousness of the Original One is the only real thing, and the only reason why it can perform texture withdrawal to fold all textures back into itself. How every texture is but a sheet of paper at best, to the Original One, so much so they can just wash away existence like a sink back into itself. Explained how the Original One is outright stated to be perfect and eternal, alongside the inhabitants of the Inner Sea, like Divine Spirits who are described as perfect concepts and sometimes even associated with Platonic Concepts. And I even gave an explanation for the space-time with explicit scans suggesting the lack of imperfection from True Magic, which allows for it to dissolve coordinates and times. How science will never reach True Magic, because it begins from its curve and curves back onto it, which is why all Beings will never reach Avalon and simultaneously already have reached it.

I agree with the CRT, just curious about something though. You mention the principle of another DA, so like Vlov's principle Ciel took. How exactly would that scale back to Vlov then? His principle was noted by her to be "not yet fully grown" and as a result she was unable to shape it into new grand magecraft iirc, not sure how relevant that would be here though.

Vlov's principle was entirely killed by Shiki in Ciel route, his Idea Blood retained. Idea Blood are blood principles arising from Crimson Moon's/Inner Sea of the Planet pure blood, but they're distinct from the principles of a Dead Apostle that they develop at Rank 6 (Vlov is fundamentally of this rank), the blood principle merely acts upon the individuated principles of a Dead Apostle, each if they were to possess an Idea Blood. Vlov doesn't retain the qualifications to possess an Idea Blood, that is, being a rank 8, nor does he have the Millennium class that is mandated as a bare minimum necessity. Hence, immature/growth cut off as the text notes in relation to his Hemonomic Principle. I'm sure you know this, but Ciel's Sacrament of Quinze is merely replicating principles as grand magecraft without utilising the Idea Blood or the principle itself, and that irrevocably ends in them being weakened regardless. Ciel possesses the principles of Be'ze, Chromclay, Einnashe and Vlov in her route; the principle that was used to resist the Event Storage phenomenon is Chromclay's Castle therefore Kingdom, Roa even mentions something to this effect later on.

Kara no Kyoukai - Swirl of the Root Tier 0 (Re-Retake)

Since the previous threads, this and this, went down quite terribly due to a flux of off-topic and the thread reaching nowhere in general, we, the supporters of Type Moon, have decided to get it moving again and have it be re-done (for the third consecutive time). The topic, once again, being...

vsbattles.com

The Root has been Tier 0 for months; it's just that its profile hasn't been updated... for some reason.

Can you ask one of the mods to update it? I provided the sandbox to the Root profile in the same thread. The profile's done with AP and stuff, the only thing that's remaining are the character haxes/MEoDP users and "Ryougi Shiki" page. Don't really see how that correlates to the profile.

P.S. I'll fix the few scans that have broken links or are linked incorrectly and reformat the OP thread a bit later.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Vlov's principle was entirely killed by Shiki in Ciel route, his Idea Blood retained. Idea Blood are blood principles arising from Crimson Moon's/Inner Sea of the Planet pure blood, but they're distinct from the principles of a Dead Apostle that they develop at Rank 6 (Vlov is fundamentally of this rank), the blood principle merely acts upon the individuated principles of a Dead Apostle, each if they were to possess an Idea Blood. Vlov doesn't retain the qualifications to possess an Idea Blood, that is, being a rank 8, nor does he have the Millennium class that is mandated as a bare minimum necessity. Hence, immature/growth cut off as the text notes in relation to his Hemonomic Principle. I'm sure you know this, but Ciel's Sacrament of Quinze is merely replicating principles as grand magecraft without utilising the Idea Blood or the principle itself, and that irrevocably ends in them being weakened regardless. Ciel possesses the principles of Be'ze, Chromclay, Einnashe and Vlov in her route; the principle that was used to resist the Event Storage phenomenon is Chromclay's Castle therefore Kingdom, Roa even mentions something to this effect later on.

Gotchu, gotchu, okay yeah it started coming back to me. Had been a bit since I read the Ciel route

 

[KingOfDarknessBelow]

What the Great wall of china, Agree, also 3 part

 

[Ultimuru]

I should get at least 10 level ups and unlock a new skill tree for reading allat.
I agree.

 

[Re5yh]

I agree with the proposal

 

[Floxiaaa]

I agree with the thread

 

[Ferno1234]

Coherence solely depends on consciousness and the scale of the 'conscious' agent, of which, thereafter, the material comes to be emergent.

Is there any evidence for this? And even then, this deflects from the original and more prominent point, of how you'll explain the structure of things in reality, such as 2D And 3D, as from the proposal, the dimensions constituting them do not correspond to geometry and the like, but rather ontology

And if that's truly what you're going with, why the 1-C Tier? When it still corresponds to material existence, which the proposal rejects dimensions as?

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Is there any evidence for this? And even then, this deflects from the original and more prominent point, of how you'll explain the structure of things in reality, such as 2D And 3D, as from the proposal, the dimensions constituting them do not correspond to geometry and the like, but rather ontology

And if that's truly what you're going with, why the 1-C Tier? When it still corresponds to material existence, which the proposal rejects dimensions as?

...? I didn't even want to bother replying, not gunna lie, but oh well.

Read the thread thoroughly. Never has it been proposed that "higher dimensions inherently are immaterial"; this is largely irrelevant.

In the first thread here that was accepted, I made a case for dimensional anti-realism. To show how the Root being called "the pinnacle of dimension" need not render it as a Low 1-A principle, in effect, that still applies to the cosmos, not just to the Root, for a lot of reasons, as will be shown. Mash explains that dimensions aren't a qualification of 'realms'. That is, when we say the words "higher dimensional" or "lower dimensional", we are ascribing no explicit substance or ontology to that term. They are tools humans use to model changes as they experience within reality, but those descriptions don't assign any ontological delimitation to every mention of "dimension" as topological.

The proposal just says higher dimensionality doesn't ascribe substance, nor does it have to be restricted to extensionality. All the word higher dimension does is refer to higher planes of existence, some may be topological, some may not be, easy peasy. This is largely irrelevant because every relevant scan for Avalon being immaterial is already sent for one. Its nothing like Avalon has been assumed to be immaterial, and unqualifiable through topological means because of that one scan.

And if that's the only reason you think the Inner Sea is being proposed for 1-A, then unfortunately, you just didn't read the thread. It doesn't even make sense for my premise to be "everything higher dimensional is immaterial", after demonstrating in the Mooncell to not meet the requirements for being beyond extensionality and not Eternity, then saying it's also 1-A.

Note 2: The Mooncell is not 'superior' to Avalon, nor does the Celestial Egg within it coexist with. To begin with, we are told that the Mooncell is fundamentally incapable of fully understanding the 'soul', because computation often struggles with translating qualia. This is the reason why even the final antagonist of Fate/Grand Order failed, in an attempt to mimic Eternity through computation, when it could compute feelings to begin with, let alone fully encapsulate the living and self-contemplative nature of the Soul of the Celestial and the Celestial Egg. And so Maris Chaldeas miscalculated several times, making predictions that will inevitably not come true. Nasu foreshadows such a significant progress in technology, a technology that may lay claim to being indestructible in Oblivion Recording. Wherein it is said that even that technology cannot be regarded as 'Eternity', because of the subject and object separation, if there's an observer that can always see its value in a fluctuating manner, then it will never be Eternal. As long as the subject is separate from the external world, it will never reach Eternity; conversely, as long as the subject is unified with the world, that is, subject and object, therein subject will reach its Eternity. So it cannot record Avalon in any real sense, not even the Fantasy Trees could replicate Avalon without degrading its nature and mana density, nothing less than a shadow reflected within the British Lostbelt of the real Avalon. Beyond that, many characters are subordinate to the power of the Original One: Arcueid. Are already a class beyond the Mooncell, for example, even Tamamo-no-Mae could destroy the core of the Mooncell. And beyond that, a 30% Arcueid was noted to be capable of treating the entire Mooncell like her reality marble, and her very existence causes a strain on the Mooncell. As if that wasn't damning enough, the pruning system only affects the Mooncell, because Alaya's (which includes Human Order) continuation of the Pruning System is like a hammer strike of 'the Absolute Observer'. So the observation of Alaya is superior to that of the Mooncell.

The entire first section of my explanation is proving the opposite, that higher-dimensional structures based on technology don't apply to the reasons for 1-A.

In addition... evidence for what exactly? Because surely it's not about whether or not consciousness is fundamental, because I go over that in great detail. But if it's about the part where you didn't read the thread, then I'm not concerned with that period.

---

This aside, I should clarify that these scans, quoted below, weren't for the Root, so I will remove them from the Root's blog page, as this comes from Roa, who was searching for knowledge of all things within the universe. 'Universe' here being the index to the universe of the Celestial Egg, which Arcueid solely supervenes over.

A white disk shone in the sky, partially obscured by clouds.
What was it?
What were its aims? Just what made it tick?
Those were the feelings of anticipation, of curiosity, of fear, held toward something beyond one's grasp.
All these were engraved in his heart as shining stars.

This was the driving force that set everything in motion.
Oh, how sinful it was-
how foolish.
It was then that he swore to the Heavenly Father that he would lay bare the theory that underpinned the universe.

Ultimately, as one could guess, it relates to this specific instance from my OP thread.

Archetype: Earth, the very Soul of the Cosmos, herself also likens the length of the period between Human Order and the Age of Will, to be a journey without end, yet with a conclusion. All of this is simply to say the unfolding of the Celestial Egg has no temporal end, but has a teleological closure nonetheless. Beings of the outward and projected textures will continue to embark on an endless journey, of the Planet unfolding, whilst simultaneously also having already reached their conclusion within the Inner Sea: the Celestial Egg. A fully enclosed system of self-contemplation pushing outward and returning inward onto itself

• Cyclical Infinity [Eternity]: Cyclical Eternal cycles, that is, self-relational [circular] cycles that intermingle with the Planet's actuality.
• Linear Infinity: The linear and sequential cycles of the Planet, the world as it continues to unfold potentiality outwards away from its Inner Sea.

For those interested, and who've engaged with the thread/reading it, besides her (Arcueid) being called the True Face of Eternity. We understand from Roa's thesis of Eternity, which was initially used to explain the Eternity that is the Akashic Records, derivatively. That Roa's capacity to reincarnate to infinity derived from her having sucked her blood, he explains it as follows. That he desires to understand Eternity, and thereby using the power derived from her will continue to reincarnate until the virtual 'conclusion' of all things.

But because the sense of self for humans in particular cannot withstand such a voyage, without paradoxically losing their sense of self. He calls this the deterioration of the mind, which can only be averted if the mind, to begin with, is trapped in stasis. That is, if the mind can remain unchanging, thoughts frozen in place, a sense of objectivity trapped in a "bygone era".

Which is an obvious reference to the Celestial Egg and the mind of the Planet for two reasons, one, it is the only thing besides the Akashic Records that can never forget or lose its memories of everything that occurs within it. As explained and shown in the OP yet again, the Celestial Egg knows everything before it exists and never forgets anything that has existed on it.

And for another reason, Roa compares it to a "bygone era" in that scan, which is an obvious reference to the Age of Gods, as for one its the only era he'd have knowledge of to compare to. And second of all, it is an era also explicitly stated to be an era of "Eternal Cycles", whilst human order and the surface texture in comparison are transient.

Ergo Roa embodies that tragedy, love for the Lord 'Arcueid'. Desire to understand the Eternity that is her, but in reincarnating lost sight of his goal. She was the precept of henosis for Roa, the source of his immortality, of which he attempted to reach the completion of all things. Arcueid herself, Eternity, as a participant within Eternity.

That love manifested as his desire to reach the end/completion of everything, to know everything as a participant, so he can reach 'Arcueid'—His Eternity.

Admittedly, these scans are relevant to the Celestial Egg in particular, and some scans are entangled in references between the Akashic Records and the Celestial Egg. But those two are the same in principle, only differing by degree of reality and unity, that's why the Celestial Egg—memories of the world is noted to be like the Akashic Records but a lower ripple phenomena. That's why the scans of the observed being the object of observation loosely refer to 'recording', an activity only possessed by the Soul of the Celestial and the Akashic Records. For both, it has been said that:

• Reality is but a dream for them both, but to differing degrees.
• Possess a mind that is self-contemplative, or observes itself as a subject, not as an object. They are the seer and sees itself so to speak, except at the level of the Akashic Records, there's no internal-differentiation. And for the Soul of the Celestial, there is an internal differentiation of ideas that is produced by reflecting on itself.
• Both are referred to as Eternity.

---

I'll fix the scans' link that are broken tomorrow-ish or the day after, I must've gotten a bit spacey here and there as I usually do, sorry about that. Deepest thanks to the ones who read the thread and went out of their way to help, by pointing out the broken links to me, both on-site and off-site, especially ShiftCtrl, Elesia/Ciel, Aliph and Dartz. Godspeed.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Finally had time to read everything. I’m honestly no expert on this, the last time I really understood these kinds of buffs was in the very old SMT and Persona threads.

But I think I got the gist of the arguments, it makes sense. So yeah, I agree with this proposal and the OP!

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

After reading (again)
Agree
Good job Shin

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Finally had time to read everything. I’m honestly no expert on this, the last time I really understood these kinds of buffs was in the very old SMT and Persona threads.

But I think I got the gist of the arguments, it makes sense. So yeah, I agree with this proposal and the OP!

A few of my friends, Chaos, Prizm and Frontier etc happens to be SMT/Persona scalers, while I scale Persona myself. It's hell, man, hell. That being said, thank you for reading through it. I'm glad you read through it.

After reading (again)
Agree
Good job Shin

Likewise, thanks for taking the time to read through it. Appreciate it, alongside the pfp of yours.


Also, just in case, I'm not sure about committing to anybody being actually 1-A base without it just being smurf hax yet. So I'll be dropping the commitments to outright 1-A Grand Servants, Matured Beasts and Archetype Earth alongside ORT for the time being. Since the reasons for outright 1-A will completely depend on part 2 of the thread, which will cover the nature of spiritrons.

Otherwise, there's no real justification for them being outright 1-A in part 1, so it's pointless to cling to that for now, for the time being, 1-C with 1-A Smurf Hax.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Got through this thread, I can tell how much effort went into this.

I want to extend my appreciation to all involved in making this, keep up the good work.

Also, just in case, I'm not sure about committing to anybody being actually 1-A base without it just being smurf hax yet. So I'll be dropping the commitments to outright 1-A Grand Servants, Matured Beasts and Archetype Earth alongside ORT for the time being. Since the reasons for outright 1-A will completely depend on part 2 of the thread, which will cover the nature of spiritrons.

Otherwise, there's no real justification for them being outright 1-A in part 1, so it's pointless to cling to that for now, for the time being, 1-C with 1-A Smurf Hax.

So long as Gil gets to be 1A,
I will wait.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Likewise, thanks for taking the time to read through it. Appreciate it, alongside the pfp of yours.


Also, just in case, I'm not sure about committing to anybody being actually 1-A base without it just being smurf hax yet. So I'll be dropping the commitments to outright 1-A Grand Servants, Matured Beasts and Archetype Earth alongside ORT for the time being. Since the reasons for outright 1-A will completely depend on part 2 of the thread, which will cover the nature of spiritrons.

Otherwise, there's no real justification for them being outright 1-A in part 1, so it's pointless to cling to that for now, for the time being, 1-C with 1-A Smurf Hax.

You're welcome and Ty !! (If I didn't lose my nitro on discord, it would still been the same as this 1 )
Also the 1C with 1A smurf hax seems fine
Id really grant 1A to the absolute top tiers like grand servants as you said
But save for that for PT2

 

[Skoo30]

Avalon without degrading its nature and mana density, nothing less than a shadow reflected within the British Lostbelt of the real Avalon

You accidently linked the scan for Tamamo here.

Agree with the proposal for Goetia to get an extra key as a conceptual entity, neutral on the rest until I've it read it through

 

[Apotheosis69]

A few of my friends, Chaos, Prizm and Frontier etc happens to be SMT/Persona scalers, while I scale Persona myself. It's hell, man, hell. That being said, thank you for reading through it. I'm glad you read through it.

Oh don't you worry man, we are workin on it... And it's the Seventh Layer of Hell...

 

[AgonistDisorder]

Hello all! Shin invited me here to challenge/test the integrity of his arguments, so I’ll do that later, but for now, I have a few questions.


How does Maris-Chaldeas not being completely Omniscient contradict its nature? Even Arcueid in Luminary form is subject to bouts of incompetence.




Olga Chaldeas is repeatedly stated to be an accurate copy of the planet’s soul, in both data volume and structure. This is reflected by U-Olga, the brain of Olga-CHALDEAS, having the exact same mass and Saint Graph as the Earth itself, just like Arcueid.

Height: At least 100 meters!
Weight: Don't you know you can't measure how heavy Earth is?
Source: Fate/Grand Order
Birthplace: America, Mount Rushmore
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Sub-Alignment: Sky
Gender: Woman
Likes: Earthlings (because they are the source of her strength)
Dislikes: The Universe (because its clearly bigger than her)
Her motto is apparently, "Taller than the Statue of Liberty and larger than Mount Rushmore".
Her Magic Circuit alignment is earth.

Number Two: The Nuclear Fusion of Dreams and Hope (Hyper Tritium).


Infinite energy generated via internal nuclear fusion.


U-Olga Marie


"I possess the same Saint Graph as the Earth, after all.


You could call it an 'Earth Burn', so to speak."

What the Mooncell couldn’t understand was the human mind, which is seperate from the soul.



This is similar to a celestial body not forming a brain until being taught by the intelligent lifeforms on it. Its even called an Ownerless Type-Moon in Extra Mats, and Hakuno confirms in OC3 that it is capable of birthing its own Archetype. That is what it meant by inviting humans to teach it. It wanted a mold to construct its own brain. The Moon Cell is stated to have completely read the entirety of the planet, down to the management systems. Fate Extra even implies that humanity will become the prime species of it.

Later, this crystalline lens, which did nothing but reflect dreams, would come to be called:

The Eye of the Moon.
A bottomless Klein Cube.
And the ownerless Type-Moon, which had completely read the entirety of this planet.

Official name: Moon Cell Automaton.
An energy accumulation body discovered inside the Moon.
An artifact created by intelligent lifeforms different from humanity.
It is the supercomputer that serves as the stage for Fate/EXTELLA.

In terms of its cyber-structure, it has been confirmed to have up to seven layers. The first layer, which is the surface of the moon, can be reached even by ordinary hackers.
Intrusion into the second layer and beyond, which constitutes the interior, is difficult unless one is a Wizard... or rather, physical means of intrusion are completely non-existent.
Unless one undergoes soul transfer and becomes an information body in a pseudo-spiritron state, it is impossible to gaze into the abyss.
It's said that magi of the old world accomplished contact with the interior of the Moon Cell as part of their meditation, without even using radio waves.

The Moon Cell is, so to speak, an "eye that observes Earth."
It is a calculation device that faithfully simulates all life on Earth, even making accurate future predictions possible.
Humanity's database. An enormous memory that records everything from their ecology and history to their ideologies and souls.
To intelligent lifeforms whose technological level has improved enough to detect the interior of the moon, it is a forbidden box that promises transition to the next stage and abilities equal to a god.

◆

Originally, it was an observation device placed by an alien civilization.
It was a device that merely recorded the state of life on Earth, but over a long period of time, it came to possess its current functions.

At first, it was an observation device, but, if it is to observe, there must be no "unseen parts."
(Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. The observer determines the event by observing it. Unseen parts are not determined.)
An observation device must be fair. As long as it observes, there must be no unseen parts. As a result, It required functions to know everything about the Earth.

In order to record everything equally and exactly as it is, it needed performance beyond that of a mere observation device.
Thus, the Moon Cell's functions underwent tremendous evolution.
It expanded its functions from observation to surveillance, and ultimately to a calculator capable of grasping even the management of the planet.

As its scale expanded, its management policies became more complex. It created many terminals, and even created artificial intelligence to manage functions section by section. (These would later be utilized as NPCs and High-Level AIs in the Holy Grail War.)

However, on the other hand, It stubbornly refused only one thing: to equip itself with artificial intelligence.
An observer must not possess intelligence.
If the observer had intelligence, the observer would end up determining the meaning of things.
Therefore, the Moon Cell continued to maintain absolute objectivity purely as a single eye... Constantly dismantling anything resembling intelligence that was assembled and born for the sake of functional operation.

Therefore, this calculator has no concept of good and evil, no desire for the future, and not even a conclusion.
It is merely an object that is just there. It existed solely as an automatic writer [typewriter] left behind by God.

However, due to the "Moon Holy Grail War" conducted to record human mental activity, and the choice of the protagonist who won it, the Moon Cell's state of being changed, if only a little.
It provided its vast photon network to Earth's humanity as a second frontier. From now on, SE.RA.PH will no longer be a foundation "for knowing humans," but rather soil "for humans to evolve."

And the Moon Cell will record that history.
Without changing its nature as an observation device that simply provides a world.

That being said. Even if we say it existed before the planet was born, it is not the "first lifeform that existed." After all, it is a soul. A mind.Materially speaking, it might as well not exist. At this stage, it is the same as all the various Divine Spirits or the Elementals born from the planet.An Archetype as a lifeform is actually something born later.

When the intelligent lifeforms that sprouted on that planet mature, they dream, thinking, "I see. So our beginning [illusion], our conclusion [essence], looked like this." That is how it is born.Despite being the starting point of the planet's birth, its "mold" is only finally created during the mature stage of a civilization.It is a supernatural existence known as the Brain of the Planet, yet it is a troublesome child that cannot even perceive its own form without intelligent lifeforms.That is an Archetype: Celestial Body. The "Ultimate One" of that planet.

However, that is strictly the planet's circumstances.It has nothing to do with the intelligent lifeforms that grew on the planet's surface.For intelligent lifeforms, an "Archetype" is not the "original shape," but rather the "original figure."In other words, it is nothing other than the soul meant to succeed them and give birth to a new star.

Kishinami Hakuno
The humanity of this world failed the succession of the Primates.
No, they rebelled against it.

Kishinami Hakuno
It would be fine if they perished without an Archetype ever appearing. They wouldn't be pruned.

Kishinami Hakuno
But to have an Archetype and yet refuse the succession is a deeper sin than anything else. Far from being worthless, it's a terrible precedent.



Kishinami Hakuno
Of course the Human Order would come to crush them in earnest. Deep down, I thought it was already too late.



Kishinami Hakuno
Well, somehow we managed to avoid it, though. Humans can really make things work out when they try, huh.



Mash
Kishinami-san...

[ Choice ] ...What happened in your world, Hakuno-san?


Kishinami Hakuno
Fortunately, the Archetype was born on its own and quickly reached a mutual understanding with humanity.

Kishinami Hakuno
The year 3000 AD. That year, in our world, we were preparing to send the Archetype to space.

Kishinami Hakuno
On the morning right before that, I was summoned to Moon Dubai. On the very morning of the day my duty was finally going to end.



Mash
Duty... Do you mean your duty as humanity—no, as the Primates—was finished?



Kishinami Hakuno
Yeah. It was a life of endless desk work, but just as I thought I'd finally be freed from it...

Kishinami Hakuno
Plus, the female version of myself was right in front of me. I was genuinely taken aback. I thought, "This has turned into a massive ordeal."

In the future, SE.RA.PH is likely to transition from a strictly observational platform to a stage upon which humanity will evolve.
For now, the Moon Cell continues to record history
Its function as a machine that simply provides the world remaining unchanged.

Also, a recreation of the universe is not unprecedented in Type-Moon lore, so lets stop pretending its impossible. Nasu calls his recreation a "Model Case" of the universe, meaning a constructed, real-life scenario that exemplifies all defining attributes of a concept, serving as a "gold standard" to clarify its meaning. In plain katakana, even. He even calls it a perfect idol of God, to further express this fact.

Caubac Alcatraz
The 27th of the Twenty-Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors.
His Idea Blood (Genri Kekkai) is "Failure" or "Leftovers."

He is a vampire who was "a follower of the Church even before becoming a Dead Apostle."
Shortly before the transition to the Common Era, he yielded to the Crimson Moon. Because he showed promise, he was given pure blood and made an Ancestor.

Ever since then, lamenting his own transformation into a vampire and feeling he had no right to face his former comrades (fellow believers)—and knowing he’d probably end up killing them if they did meet—he secluded himself in an underground cave.
Through various circumstances, this eventually led to the creation of the great labyrinth, Alcatraz.

Around the year 1000 AD, he completed the Holy Scripture, Triten.
No one has seen him since.
Within the Holy Church and vampire society, the accepted story about Caubac is: "In order to protect the book of truth he wrote, the Holy Scripture Triten, he continually remodeled his castle until it eventually became a massive labyrinth with warped dimensions, trapping even himself inside."

It's said that he was so disgusted by his own body—which could only survive by sucking human blood—that he transformed himself into an inorganic object.
Rumor has it that his form is literally a "padlock."

↓

In Mahoutsukai no Hako (Magician's Box), a new setting was added: Hibiki is actually an artificial lifeform (Triten) who turned into a human and blended into society.

Based on the philosophy that, "This world was created by the Lord, and the underground is enveloped in His love. Even humans turning into a violent mob and shouting, 'Hyahhaa, food!' is a form of God's love. The true shape of God's love is seriously beyond human comprehension," the Holy Scripture Triten was written as an attempt to understand and record the Lord's love.
The punchline is that, when pushed to its absolute logical limit, it ended up becoming a model case of the universe.

Naturally, he had no intention of making a model of the universe; it just turned out that way when he built it.
Reaching the conclusion that "Proof of the existence of the Lord's love" = "The Universe," Caubac recognized his own righteousness. At the same time, deciding he needed to hide this absurdly cool treasure that absolutely everyone would covet, he built the labyrinth.

Because of this, the labyrinth expands at the speed of the universe. It is seriously impossible to escape.

Here is where the Mahoutsukai no Hako lore evolves. Caubac had absolute confidence in Triten, but while he took his eyes off it for a moment, Triten vanished from its vault and somehow turned into a human at a Japanese cafe.

Triten = the proof of the Lord's love. Yet, as a result of evolution, that very Triten had the gall to turn into a human!

"Thou shalt not see God within thyself" is a Catholic tenet.
So, if Caubac were to find out about Hibiki, the shock would literally make him crap his pants.
He would realize that, intending to prove God's existence, he had inadvertently proven that God does not exist.

※ Supplement

The reason Triten says, "I was wrong," stems from ideas like: "You must not see God within yourself," "You must not pray for your own sake" (Prayer is for the Lord. Praying to the Lord for salvation is a no-go. You pray strictly for the Lord. This is the exact same state of mind as Caren), and "The Lord's love is absolute and must not be doubted. Therefore, you must not desire any form of the Lord other than what is in the scriptures."

God's love = this world.
The world we live in is the embodiment of God's love, and no matter what suffering fills the world, that too is just one part of the system of God's great work (love).

The world was created by the Lord's will.

If I thoroughly analyze the human system (soul, body, mind) and properly document it in a book, couldn't the Lord's love be clearly presented?
Thinking this, Caubac began creating all sorts of descriptions and models, thoroughly analyzing all of creation to give it form, and ultimately ended up creating a model case of the universe.
(He didn't realize it was a model case of the universe until it was finished.)
Then, he strongly convinced himself that the fact this universe functioned correctly (even if devoid of life) was proof that "the Lord's love" existed and was accepted in the world.
Caubac built the labyrinth to protect this treasure.
(He wasn't afraid of it being misused; he was genuinely just terrified of it being stolen.)

To him, as long as he had Triten, nothing else mattered.
Or rather, since he had basically reached the finish line as a Dead Apostle, he was in a complete NEET state. He only needed Triten.
But if he found out that Triten had started moving around as a human, he'd be in a massive panic.
A shock on par with getting your computer infected with a virus after visiting a **** site.

He created the perfect idol of God, and it turned into a human.
So, are humans God?
Is God born from humans?
Does God become human?
That's impossible. God is not within humans.
Yet Triten became human.
This means that from the start, there was nothing but humans in the universe.
= God does not exist.

His logic spirals into something like this, causing Caubac's brain to essentially blue-screen.
Though paralyzed and unable to move a single step, he somehow holds his ground thanks to his innate strong will and power of delusion:
"One more time. Let me look at Triten one more time.
Maybe I made a mistake somewhere. Or perhaps Triten really is—no, never mind."
And so he begins searching for Hibiki—that is the backstory of Mahoutsukai no Hako.

※ Continuation of "Or perhaps Triten really is—"

Triten was a model case of a universe devoid of life.
(Life, in this case, refers to intelligent lifeforms capable of self-evolution.)
However, in the process of growing as a universe, it gave birth to life.
That truly is the very work of God itself.
If Triten, the ultimate expression of the Lord's love, gives birth to a human, then that ultimately serves as proof that this world itself is the Lord's love.
Yay, I wasn't wrong after all!
But... the problem is, since I created Triten myself, I totally violated the doctrine that says you shouldn't create God, didn't I? I mean, if it's a God that a human can create...
...And so he falls into the ultimate mental labyrinth.

Having said all that, from Caubac's perspective, even if Hibiki is Triten (God), he would reject her, saying:
"God is something that exists (abstractly), not someone who is present (physically)."

God's love exists.
But it must not take a human-like form.
It must not be in a form that humans can comprehend.
It should not exist as a living being.

With a cool line like that, he'd reject Hibiki, or pretend he never saw her.
...Doing so would be a total repudiation of his two thousand years of struggle, ruining his own convictions by his own hand, but even so, he prioritized "the ideal love of God" over "his own happiness and salvation."

The same thing happens in Sora no Soto, a side story explaning one of the events of DDD that was offscreened in the original novel. This universe is completely seperate from Earth's laws:

「現実のものか空想のものかはさておいて、ここは宇宙として成立している。君には悪いが、投げ込まれた時点でおしまいだ。ここはもう君のいた星の外。 脱出も何も、既に外にいる状態なんだから」

"Setting aside whether it's a product of reality or imagination, this place is established as a universe. I feel bad for you, but it was over the moment you were thrown in. This place is already outside the planet you were on. There is no 'escaping' or anything, because you are already in a state of being outside."

わたしは４０４号室に入った。
部屋の中は密室だった。
わたしが現実に戻るためには４０４号室から出ればいいのだが、そもそも、４０４号室の中は地球の宇宙なのだ。”外に出る”という概念では、この空間からの脱出はないという事か。

I entered Room 404.
The inside of the room was a sealed space (a locked room).
In order for me to return to reality, I should just have to leave Room 404. However, in the first place, the inside of Room 404 is Earth's universe. Does that mean, based on the concept of "going outside," there is no escape from this space?

Golden BB, an AI, created a celestial body.

○ Lagrange Luxury: EX
LL. An artificial celestial body created to eternally observe the Earth and Moon, named after the Lagrange points. Though it wasn't built in normal space, it seems to exist in Imaginary Number Space. Originally massive, it has been miniaturized and used as an accessory for BB Dubai, thanks to some mysterious technology called "Perspective Realism Ether Lens." This ability applies a debuff to all enemies, exploiting the gravitational differences between the Earth and the Moon.

○ Golden Capital of the Moon: EX
A mega skill acquired through the fusion of the BB created on the Moon (Moon Cell) and the BB created on Earth (by humanity). By temporarily becoming the Moon’s Brain, she gains the ability to freely alter the lunar surface.

Speaking of dimensions, if you say the other mentions of dimensions are not referring to spatio-temporal dimensions in the true sense, what do you make of this statement calling this universe a 4-D space time continuum?

「――宇宙の外には、出られないってコト？」
「四次元時空の限界だね！　もうここでアダムとイヴになるしかないね！」って、こわ、なんか背後にブラックホール級の殺意が渦巻いております！
「全部アンタが原因じゃない。なんだって広がる宇宙なんて欲しがったの？　引きこもりなら引きこもりらしく、五畳半で我慢しとけば良かったのに」

​

"—So, does that mean we can't go outside the universe?"
"'Thats the limit of four-dimensional spacetime! I guess we have no choice but to become Adam and Eve right here!' ...Whoa, scary, there is some black-hole-level murderous intent swirling behind me!"
"It's entirely your fault, isn't it? Why did you even want an expanding universe in the first place? If you're a shut-in, you should have acted like one and just been content with a four-and-a-half tatami mat room."

Spritrons, which make up all things in the universe, have an underlying mass of some sort, they have physical properties like density and pressure. Kuku's Luminary, which is the soul of Malla, is described as this:

Goredolf:
What in the world is that!?
Is it a new attack from the "Alien God"!?
Sion:
No, this is something else!
The Human Order Foundation Value has dropped into the negative!
Sion:
That thing came from a Lostbelt!
Sion:
An internal pressure of 200 billion [atmospheres], a temperature of 16 million degrees, and a density 160 times that of water... No matter how you look at it, that is a sun!

U-Olga Marie:
This sensation... it's neither light nor flame.
A fusion of plant and mineral, you say...!?
U-Olga Marie:
A sun, yet also a plant.
A flame, yet also a mineral.
U-Olga Marie:
Where in the world could such a substance even exist!?
U-Olga Marie:
I can't hold it back...!
Are you telling me that I am being outmatched in sheer power outputーーーー!?

Human Order also has an end, in the real sense, which Gilgamesh and Merlin both observe. The inner sea of the planet's light finally fades, with all mysteries returning to the Earth as clods of earth.

"I do wonder... The Age of Gods has ended and the Age of Fairies will soon follow suit. What is to come is the Age of Man, but that is also fated to end someday as well. When the planet ceases to rotate, the time will come for the Age of Will, where we will proceed to populate the cosmos. Those unable to exist without flesh will be left behind as artefacts. And yet... I wonder why I'm so entwined with mankind…"

By that time, my body will have long since rotted.
And yet the
knowledge
world
of humanity will continue to expand.
One day, humanity shall discern in advance even light that lies millions of years ahead.

...Such was the future I saw.
And it was an exhilarating sight.
Thinking back, I must have lost my drive.

I had collected all that should be collected.
There was no further joy to be had in that era.

Then it is a simple matter of departing with integrity.
I’ll experience death as many times as necessary.

Time and again I shall revive.
Time and again I shall observe.
Until the end of this world.

Until the day comes when humanity reaches beyond my
garden. (planet)
,setting sail for the dark sea―――until the day comes when humanity reaches the end of the sky
and strikes its final note.”

人理の果て、刻の終わり。
既に星から生命は去り、
物語がうまれる事はなくなった。
黄昏を知らなかった楽園の日は落ち、
すべての幻想は土塊に還っていった。


At the end of the Human Order, the end of time.
Life has already departed from the planet,
and stories are born no more.
The sun has set on a paradise that knew no twilight,
and all fantasies have returned to being clods of earth.

Edit: Damn, it sent too early. Ill update this post periodically.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

I don't know who you are, but m'kay, I'll respond later. You definitely don't type or argue like Marshadow, though, man, definitely.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Introduces themselves as someone Shin knows

Shin doesn't know who they are

self report

 

[DaReaperMan]

@Reiner04 He does have the rights, otherwise I wouldn't have noticed him @ me

Um... Glass... Should I be slightly concerned about this when Shin uh, didn't know who they were...?

Hello all! Shin invited me here to challenge/test the integrity of his arguments, so I’ll do that later, but for now, I have a few questions.

I don't know who you are, but m'kay, I'll respond later. You definitely don't type or argue like Marshadow, though, man, definitely.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Anyway, here's my response to you

How does Maris-Chaldeas not being completely Omniscient contradict its nature? Even Arcueid in Luminary form is subject to bouts of incompetence.

Interesting. Very interesting. I'd expect a person who's actually here to "test the integrity of the arguments" would at least have a semblance of understanding of what is being argued. Which tells me to test out the integrity of the arguments is not the goal here, but rather the goal here is just to argue, no? I mean, why would you test the integrity of any argument you don't understand? Did I not explain with citations how technology cannot replicate the Celestial Egg completely? It doesn't seem like any of your responses are prepared to critically engage with the proposal as well. Rather, it's just you talking to yourself and sending scans. I mean its always convenient for you to argue with scans, without explicitly committing to anything interpretatively, because it requires an effort you just refuse to put in, in your pursuit of "wankbreaking". As if you've ever cared about the source material you yourself refuse to critically engage with. But nevertheless, it's okay, that's why I'm here. Let's go through your interpretations for the fun of it, since you refuse to engage with mine, and get your commitments clear for anybody watching and for the staff team marshadow.

Especially relating this statement.

Even Arcueid in Luminary form is subject to bouts of incompetence.

We've already run into a sneaky little false equivalence. Let's conveniently ignore the fact that the manifestations of Arcueid, including Luminary, are not omniscient because Arcueid freely choose to pick out which information she absorbs from the Celestial Egg in combat. Common knowledge for anybody who has read the visual novel, anyway. We are told this in her route, and we are told this when she fights Ciel and absorbs the information of her surroundings.

Olga Chaldeas is repeatedly stated to be an accurate copy of the planet’s soul, in both data volume and structure. This is reflected by U-Olga, the brain of Olga-CHALDEAS, having the exact same mass and Saint Graph as the Earth itself, just like Arcueid.

I've already explained "omniscience" here to just be self-contemplation, which the avatar doesn't possess to the same degree as the Celestial Egg does. But let's get your commitments clear here, since you like using a roundabout way to nitpick statements in the source material by isolating context. Kukulkan claims Archetype: Earth to fundamentally be aware of all the events that occur on the Planet, and it is affirmed in Lostbelt 7 that the Archetype not only knows the history of all life before it even comes to be, but it cannot forget such sights. What's your stance and interpretation of these scans? What are your commitments regarding these scans? Let's stop beating around the bush and actually pick your brains for the first time in your life. Furthermore, you ask what about it not being omniscient even within its domain contradicts its nature as being the Soul of the Planet. Which tells me two things

1. Either you think the Soul of the Planet is not omniscient within itself, and both of those statements, one coming from an Archetype directly is also false.
2. It is true that the Archetype is omniscient, and it is true that Maris is not, so it's true that both are not identical if we are to go by absolute identity in any case. So if we were to go by that, then it forces you into a deeper discussion about how they are identical.

Considering that I already read the finale and have my own understanding of what manner in which they are identical, now, Marshadow, would you be so kind as to tell us what your understanding of them being identical is if (2) follows and not (1)? Preferably, critically support it with other subtext and the general themes unveiled to us in the finale.

Because, should this part not be resolved, then we run into a problem here, Marshadow. Since you like treating everything you read with great oversimplification, if by "is" or "is identical to the Soul of the Cosmos" they mean absolute identity. Then am I to believe you also commit to the idea that the Root was entirely copied, by what is not omniscience, in the same chapter where it's revealed that all knowledge is complete within the Root?

Let's not try to selectively choose which boundaries we apply silly logic to, because if it's true, they mean absolute identity, and they reference identity to the Planet in that same manner. Then, going by this, the Root is either copied, but in spite of being copied, it has all knowledge, but Maris Chaldeas doesn't have all knowledge, so it's not copied? Or conversely speaking, the Root can be copied, and what is a complete copy of it is not omniscient and therefore, all knowledge is not complete within the Root? But surely it can't be the latter, right? Unless we are to completely ignore the statement that says otherwise in the same chapter where they affirm an identity relation between the Root and Maris, right?

That means we also have to completely turn a blind eye to absolutely every other statement about the Root. Including the most common one, that it is "the beginning and end of everything" and that "it is where everything is recorded", right? Now say you don't completely trust statements about the Root, infact just about all statements about the Root. What about the dialogues of people experiencing it, Marshadow? Gray? What about her saying "there's nothing and everything" and "I was the flow and the flow was me" and "space, time and the mind dissolved into one another like tangled threads"? Unless, of course, Gray was also just wrong about her own experience of the Root as being non-dual right? Well.. Unless, of course, Maris is non-dual, is it? What are your commitments here, Marshadow? Just make them clear. I don't think anybody who has argued with you has forced this much on you.

What the Mooncell couldn’t understand was the human mind, which is seperate from the soul.

Oh? Yes, yes. Let's completely pretend this changes anything whatsoever. Unless you forgot, just never knew or conveniently ignored the part where you're told what arrives inside the Mooncell is the output destination of consciousness that actually comes from the Soul?

It is said that in the past, there were miracles that sought to materialize the soul on Earth. However, these miracles were lost during the Great Collapse of the 1970s. Afterward, magi who accepted the end of their era incorporated modern science—which had previously been taboo to them—and redefined the concept of the soul. This new interpretation is called the "magical theory of pseudo-spiritrons," the projection of consciousness.Previously, consciousness could only be emitted through the physical body. However, magi succeeded in measuring the soul’s position and projecting its output into a new, heavenly cyber domain as a digital duplicate. This allowed magi to completely transfer themselves into the electronic world, enabling them to acquire information on a much higher level.Fate/Extra Material

I also liked how this was just a one-sentence response, how I wish such nuance could be addressed with just a single sentence. I mean, what's the point here? Is it that even if the Mooncell doesn't understand the mind, you know what the soul generates? It can understand the soul, and therefore, my argument for the Mooncell being subordinate to the Celestial Egg doesn't follow?

“The thing called the Swirl of the Root, it is probably the birthplace of everything. All phenomena flow out from it. If you know the origin, the results are naturally produced. To describe it as it is, you could say that it’s the ‘perfect knowledge’.

Except that the reason why certain principles like the Root embody a sense of 'omniscience' to them, in spite of being beyond will and deliberation. Is solely because of how causation is tied with knowledge, as Touko explains it, "if you know the origin, the results are naturally produced". In the context of hypostaseis, things that are created by just existing and abiding by themselves (in the case of the Celestial Egg and the Akashic Records, it is because of self-contemplation). All causes can be "found within it", and naturally, all results can be known through it. Arcueid herself also says this of the relationship between causation and knowledge when she describes the Root.

If this “hollow” can be proven, one can speak of cosmic celestial bodies. If one oneself can become this “hollow,” then one can know everything about the universe.

Which, funny enough, is also the reason why the Archetype or the Celestial Egg (the hollow of the cosmos), properly speaking, is considered omniscient. To be that hollow is to know everything about the universe, because the universe is emergent from that Celestial Egg.

So supposing the Mooncell doesn't understand the human mind/consciousness, which is animated by and is emergent of the soul. What does it change about its inability to understand the soul, because that is implicit in it not having the ability to understand consciousness as per the cause-knowledge relation in Type Moon?
What's your stance on these statements?

You do a great job in speaking vaguely enough to appear as if you're saying something meaningful, yet vaguely enough to not answer the questions of your commitments. This has been such a prevalent issue with your arguments, you've even been known to switch positions on the spot, ones that completely contradict the last, just to get your point across.

So once more, make your commitments clear here as well.

This is similar to a celestial body not forming a brain until being taught by the intelligent lifeforms on it.

I guess here's another complete false equivalence... Just say radically distinct circumstances are "like" one another never explain why, and call it a day. I've already addressed the living archetype's shape emerging in the likeness of its own species, not sure how is regurgitating that supposed to do anything.

Its even called an Ownerless Type-Moon in Extra Mats, and Hakuno confirms in OC3 that it is capable of birthing its own Archetype. That is what it meant by inviting humans to teach it. It wanted a mold to construct its own brain. The Moon Cell is stated to have completely read the entirety of the planet, down to the management systems. Fate Extra even implies that humanity will become the prime species of it.

I absolutely love this response, though, for two reasons. One, it's just never stated that the Mooncell uses souls to "create a brain of its own", so it's absolutely hilarious how you, honest to god, chose to ignore narrative consistency by dreaming bullshit up. And two, this equivalence that you're trying to force is absolutely hilarious. Because, for one, the Archetype doesn't use its species to create a "brain" for itself.

That being said. Even if we say it existed before the planet was born, it is not the "first lifeform that existed." After all, it is a soul. A mind.Materially speaking, it might as well not exist. At this stage, it is the same as all the various Divine Spirits or the Elementals born from the planet.An Archetype as a lifeform is actually something born later.When the intelligent lifeforms that sprouted on that planet mature, they dream, thinking, "I see. So our beginning [illusion], our conclusion [essence], looked like this." That is how it is born.Despite being the starting point of the planet's birth, its "mold" is only finally created during the mature stage of a civilization

To quote your own scans, scans that you read with tunnel vision, I guess. A vessel emerges once the sapient species is mature enough, and it emerges in likeness to that species. Your own scans explicitly say the Archetype already exists as a mind, before it becomes the living Archetype, and this is the Archetype as formless. The brain exists long before this. What are the similarities here? I wonder what it looks like for the Mooncell to create a brain for itself for the giggles. Is it the Mooncell giving itself neurons, or is it the Mooncell giving itself a soul? Find out next time in Fate/Extra II, limited addition I guess. Hakuno never says what you said in any case.

Anyways if anyone saw which part of Marshadow's scans Hakuno say the Mooncell can create an Archetype, please point it out for me. It seems I'm struggling to read that part, unless it's just not there.

The Moon Cell is stated to have completely read the entirety of the planet, down to the management systems.

Regarding your response to this specific statement, guess what? Guess what?

It is stated not to be omniscient because it doesn't understand emotions either! This is totally not consistent by now, could it be that Kiara Sessyion could not "know" everything so as to win the fight against us because the Mooncell, as technology, is blind to human emotions!

Well.. Unless that's also not true. Surely the Mooncell records absolutely everything on Earth. Wait, is that Leo and BB saying it just records human actions? Fun fact, did you also know that the Mooncell doesn't "know the future"; it only knows the future through predictive power, not pure omniscience in a deterministic sense. Why do you think we beat BB, "who can see the past, present and future"?.

What are your commitments to these statements personally, Marshadow? You also seemed to have intentionally avoided every reason I gave for technology being incapable of replicating the Celestial Egg. How about I recite them, with the statements I cited as evidence for them, and you tell us what your commitments are regarding those statements.

The stage is yours then, tell us how the Mooncell has computation power on par with INS BB, but can fully replicate and record Arcueid's existence. Seeing as you think it records everything, yet also simultaneously undergoes computational stress from the base Arcueid's presence inside it?

This is also related and relevant to my first few responses to you, when I asked you for your commitments regarding the statements of proper Archetypes with a frame of the Celestial Egg, having omniscience. And whether or not Maris records the Root, going by the very logic you use to deduce Maris being unquantifiably identical to the soul of the planet.

How about I recite the statements I cited as evidence for them, and you then proceed to tell us regarding your commitments to these as well. You sure have a lot of commitments to keep up with to start engaging in good faith, I'm unsure if you'll be capable of keeping that up.

Note 2: The Mooncell is not 'superior' to Avalon, nor does the Celestial Egg within it coexist with. To begin with, we are told that the Mooncell is fundamentally incapable of fully understanding the 'soul', because computation often struggles with translating qualia. This is the reason why even the final antagonist of Fate/Grand Order failed, in an attempt to mimic Eternity through computation, when it could compute feelings to begin with, let alone fully encapsulate the living and self-contemplative nature of the Soul of the Celestial and the Celestial Egg. And so Maris Chaldeas miscalculated several times, making predictions that will inevitably not come true. Nasu foreshadows such a significant progress in technology, a technology that may lay claim to being indestructible in Oblivion Recording. Wherein it is said that even that technology cannot be regarded as 'Eternity', because of the subject and object separation, if there's an observer that can always see its value in a fluctuating manner, then it will never be Eternal. As long as the subject is separate from the external world, it will never reach Eternity; conversely, as long as the subject is unified with the world, that is, subject and object, therein subject will reach its Eternity. So it cannot record Avalon in any real sense, not even the Fantasy Trees could replicate Avalon without degrading its nature and mana density, nothing less than a shadow reflected within the British Lostbelt of the real Avalon. Beyond that, many characters are subordinate to the power of the Original One: Arcueid. Are already a class beyond the Mooncell, for example, even Tamamo-no-Mae could destroy the core of the Mooncell. And beyond that, a 30% Arcueid was noted to be capable of treating the entire Mooncell like her reality marble, and her very existence causes a strain on the Mooncell. As if that wasn't damning enough, the pruning system only affects the Mooncell, because Alaya's (which includes Human Order) continuation of the Pruning System is like a hammer strike of 'the Absolute Observer'. So the observation of Alaya is superior to that of the Mooncell.

This is straight from my OP.

Anyhow, I'll leave everything here for now. I want to see if you can get past the preliminaries before I actually start pointing out the amount of contradictions in your odd interpretations, as per usual. Although I'll willingly choose to avoid the discussion on spiritrons, you got those wrong, too. But I'm reserving this for part 2 of the thread; I doubt my discussion with you will get that far anyway, so I don't have to overextend.

My next response will be a little lengthier. Be sure to actually engage next time. Otherwise, I'll let go of giving you the honour of even typing here after all these years, and will just get you reported, Marshadow. I was aiming to see exactly how you get away with all of those threads, when you can't even muster a picture of the Type Moon source material that at least doesn't have 5 contradictions or doesn't have to nitpick statements.

2 of your responses are enough to demonstrate the extent to which you argue in bad faith. I look forward to your next response.

 

[Hecky2222]

Pack it up guys, that's WankBreaker

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Pack it up guys, that's WankBreaker

Never ever triying to debate shin

 

[Deadlock-333]

Hello all! Shin invited me here to challenge/test the integrity of his arguments

I don't know who you are, but m'kay, I'll respond later. You definitely don't type or argue like Marshadow, though, man, definitely.

 

[Natsuki012]

Hello all! Shin invited me here to challenge/test the integrity of his arguments, so I’ll do that later, but for now, I have a few questions.

 

[Tdjwo]

Peak reference iykyk

 

[Theglassman12]

Hello all! Shin invited me here to challenge/test the integrity of his arguments, so I’ll do that later, but for now, I have a few questions.

I don't know who you are, but m'kay, I'll respond later. You definitely don't type or argue like Marshadow, though, man, definitely.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Hello all! Shin invited me here to challenge/test the integrity of his arguments, so I’ll do that later, but for now, I have a few questions.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Thread converted into among us

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Peak reference iykyk

Drei Glaser

Also, only one person is opposing the entire thread? And even then, their 'arguments', if you can even call them that, leave much, if not everything, to be desired. What happened to all that energy from the self-proclaimed 'Type Moon debunkers', man?

Anywayyy, jokes aside. I hope we have staff evaluating this so the votes to pass the thread will eventually occur in time soon-ish. I'll polish up the thread later today or at the earliest tomorrow, if that's fine, since I'll probably be out with Eid invitation-related stuff. Might be a bit inactive too, apologies in advance for that.

 

[Re5yh]

Hello all! Shin invited me here to challenge/test the integrity of his arguments, so I’ll do that later, but for now, I have a few questions.


How does Maris-Chaldeas not being completely Omniscient contradict its nature? Even Arcueid in Luminary form is subject to bouts of incompetence.

 

[RaveeCPN]

IagreewOP

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Marshadow can’t even come back anyways bro is IP banned

 

[Theglassman12]

I’ll see if I can get a full response to the thread, though it’ll take quite a bit for me to get the response ready since there’s a lot to read here

 

[ShinMaximillion]

I’ll see if I can get a full response to the thread, though it’ll take quite a bit for me to get the response ready since there’s a lot to read here

Take your time, fam, I'm in no particular rush.

Thanks for taking the time to read it through. God bless.