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Comprehensive Review of the Instant Death

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Dark_Soul20189 said:
It should be noted that UEG actively limits his knowledge and doesn't actually seek to learn most things, and such, so that shouldn't be the focus of any arguments.
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You’re confusing the Ultimate Extermination God (UEG) with the Ultimate God (UG). The Ultimate God is the one who limits his own knowledge. Their names are honestly too similar.
 
Azertyhuuh said:
Do I understand from your words that you deny the celestial foundations being infinite in size? That’s ridiculous—Sweet Dao used the argument of the non-existence of infinity to refute them, and that was the only way to refute them, while you are directly denying them!! I don’t even know what to say.
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Some CFs might be of infinite in size, and there are. What i am saying is that "Infinite doesn't exist" wasn't the only arguement Sweetdao used but <4-B arguement too. Which is pretty clear on its own. You need to tackle that arguement b4 we can proceed anywhere. I am not denying here anything, i am actively reminding you about what arguements were used in the original thread.
sukuna171 said:
The statement I posted is from Volume 9 of Instant Death, I believe, chapter 14.
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Not about the scans you sent but about the <4-B CFs. Are they from main line source materials (ID novel, ID's merchs, ID's guidebooks, etc), or some different novels/franchise canon to ID?

Also, everyone, take a chill pill and calm down a bit alr?


Azertyhuuh said:
Since celestial foundations differ in their laws, and each one has its own rules and characteristics, this means that relying on one foundation to prove another is an invalid argument—especially when there is already a celestial foundation of infinite size, and especially since the context states that celestial foundations are universes. Therefore, relying on one foundation to refute another is invalid, unfortunately. And since we have the context of universes and infinity, even if a foundation like Yogiri’s and Paila’s appears, which are the size of a solar system, it cannot be used as evidence for any other celestial foundation.
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This arguement will only work if only one CF is of 4-B size, exceptionally. Or maybe, if there is consistency issue with this statement compared to other statements relating to CFs. But you definitely needs to show how CFs being infinite is of more relevance than CFs being 4-B size when determining the size of dimensions comparable to them, with scans.
 
Reiner04 said:
Some CFs might be of infinite in size, and there are. What i am saying is that "Infinite doesn't exist" wasn't the only arguement Sweetdao used but <4-B arguement too. Which is pretty clear on its own. You need to tackle that arguement b4 we can proceed anywhere. I am not denying here anything, i am actively reminding you about what arguements were used in the original thread.

Not about the scans you sent but about the <4-B CFs. Are they from main line source materials (ID novel, ID's merchs, ID's guidebooks, etc), or some different novels/franchise canon to ID?

Also, everyone, take a chill pill and calm down a bit alr?



This arguement will only work if only one CF is of 4-B size, exceptionally. Or maybe, if there is consistency issue with this statement compared to other statements relating to CFs. But you definitely needs to show how CFs being infinite is of more relevance than CFs being 4-B size when determining the size of dimensions comparable to them, with scans.
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The 4-B CF feats originate from the novels The Demon Lord Is Undefeatable, where instant death appears to treat CF as being universal in scale.
 
sukuna171 said:
The 4-B CF feats originate from the novels The Demon Lord Is Undefeatable
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That is pretty dent on CF being 4-B sized i'd say. Anyways, How relevant is that novel? I mean is it popular and focuses on CF and other cosmological aspects as much as ID does? Why it is accepted as canon despite having this contradiction?
 
Reiner04 said:
That is pretty dent on CF being 4-B sized i'd say. Anyways, How relevant is that novel? I mean is it popular and focuses on CF and other cosmological aspects as much as ID does? Why it is accepted as canon despite having this contradiction?
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ID is the newer and more popular of the two stories, and yes, both stories take place in the sea.
 
Reiner04 said:
Some CFs might be of infinite in size, and there are. What i am saying is that "Infinite doesn't exist" wasn't the only arguement Sweetdao used but <4-B arguement too. Which is pretty clear on its own. You need to tackle that arguement b4 we can proceed anywhere. I am not denying here anything, i am actively reminding you about what arguements were used in the original thread.

Not about the scans you sent but about the <4-B CFs. Are they from main line source materials (ID novel, ID's merchs, ID's guidebooks, etc), or some different novels/franchise canon to ID?

Also, everyone, take a chill pill and calm down a bit alr?



This arguement will only work if only one CF is of 4-B size, exceptionally. Or maybe, if there is consistency issue with this statement compared to other statements relating to CFs. But you definitely needs to show how CFs being infinite is of more relevance than CFs being 4-B size when determining the size of dimensions comparable to them, with scans.
Click to expand...
As I told you, celestial foundations have their own laws and properties, and therefore each celestial foundation differs from the other, whether in size or in anything else. This is clear, and I provided evidence for it. That’s why you cannot use one celestial foundation as evidence for another, because it is impossible—they differ. You can compare it to height: imagine a person, as you said, is 180 cm tall. That doesn’t mean everyone has the same height; heights differ from person to person. It’s the same here.

If you want proof that the number of celestial foundations of universal size is greater than those the size of a solar system, this exists, of course. The proof I gave you is that the context states that celestial foundations are universes. It specifies their size: some are universal in size, and there is even a celestial foundation of infinite size. Let’s now look at the comparison. How can you compare an uncountable number of celestial foundations of universal size—according to the context that they are universes—to a single statement that Yogiri’s and Paila’s celestial foundations are the size of a solar system? The context showing that they are universal in size is infinitely greater than the context of a solar-system-sized foundation.

If someone claims they are at the level of a solar system, they must prove it with evidence. Otherwise, the context stating that they are universes—and especially that some are of infinite size—refutes any other idea. So yes, the number of celestial foundations of universal and infinite size is uncountable, while there are only two celestial foundations of solar-system size.

And even if there is only one celestial foundation of infinite size, that alone is enough to make the Abyss Low 1-C. This exists and cannot be refuted. The only method Sweet Dao used to refute it was the infinity argument, and that has been refuted, which means that this infinite foundation will remain standing proudly in any debate here.
 
Reiner04 said:
That is pretty dent on CF being 4-B sized i'd say. Anyways, How relevant is that novel? I mean is it popular and focuses on CF and other cosmological aspects as much as ID does? Why it is accepted as canon despite having this contradiction?
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If you ask me, I think we should prioritize the information from ID over the unbeatable demon lord.
 
Reiner04 said:
That is pretty dent on CF being 4-B sized i'd say. Anyways, How relevant is that novel? I mean is it popular and focuses on CF and other cosmological aspects as much as ID does? Why it is accepted as canon despite having this contradiction?
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Both take place in the same cosmology, so they share a canon. (meaning it's not a case of primary and secondary canon, but rather two stories being in the same verse,)
 
sukuna171 said:
ID is the newer and more popular of the two, and yes, two stories take place in the sea.
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I see. In that case i will be more inclined to say CF is universal/infinite in size than the statement coming from a different and prior novels which can have consistency issues with other stories written at different times. I would even go as far as to say to treat it as completely different series given this contradiction, but if its merely a consistency issue due to being written at different times and both of them are really canon undeniably, I'd prioritize the newer statements and latest novels statements over the old prior and different ones, for ID cosmology atleast.
 
sukuna171 said:
If you ask me, I think we should prioritize the information from ID over the unbeatable demon lord.
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It fits with the definition of a retcon
noun
(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.

verb
revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.
Click to expand...
 
Reiner04 said:
I see. In that case i will be more inclined to say CF is universal/infinite in size than the statement coming from a different and prior novels which can have consistency issues with other stories written at different times. I would even go as far as to say to treat it as completely different series given this contradiction, but if its merely a consistency issue due to being written at different times and both of them are really canon undeniably, I'd prioritize the newer statements and latest novels statements over the old prior and different ones, for ID cosmology atleast.
Click to expand...
Imagine with me: the Demon King novel—let me just tell you, it’s an old novel from 2015 or earlier, unofficial, stopped at volume 3, and didn’t even meet the minimum requirement to be called a novel. It’s unofficial and hasn’t continued since that year.
Meanwhile, the Yogiri novel started in 2019 or 2020, and the author wrote 15 volumes, it became official, and Instant Death got an anime adaptation for the first part, a manga as well, and became popular. Meanwhile, the Demon King novel, written in 2015, is unofficial, can’t even really be called a novel, and the author himself stopped it and moved on to Instant Death in 2019, which succeeded and got everything.

The problem is that people all over the world—you can check—are laughing at us here because we literally use that unofficial novel. Honestly, I don’t blame them, because everyone around the world knows that the Demon King novel is used only to refute the official Instant Death novel, while the Demon King novel itself is unofficial, can’t even be called a novel, and the author himself stopped it in 2015 and probably doesn’t even remember it exists. Yet people cite it here. So this has really gotten out of control, and I don’t understand how this community can agree to this.

There should be a dedicated thread and strict, official, legal requirements to consider a work—novel, manga, or anime—as valid and official for use in this community. It must meet several conditions to be considered acceptable, and to my knowledge, this exists in other communities, where even revenue, views, and so on are counted to determine if a work can be accepted. But here, any novel gets approved.

I think tomorrow I could write a 3-volume novel, bring it here, and publish it, and in 2035, you’ll still be able to reference it—just like what happened.
 
Cipher72 said:
Well why not both ? CF's can range from >4-B (some) up to H3-A I don't see the issue with that.
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The issue i see with that is that ID novel does not mention anything abput CFs being solar systems or less in sizes or vary to such extent but consistently calls them Universes, infinite, etc. Those terms usage pretty much establishes their sizes to a proper Universe, so to disregard them based on the statement of prior, old novels written at different times involving entirely different story seems a bit unfair imo and more like either a entirely retcon or consistency issue with the story written at different times. If newer novels had any implications about the sizes varying to such extent despite being called Universes, I wouldn't have had any issue with it.
 
Reiner04 said:
The issue i see with that is that ID novel does not mention anything abput CFs being solar systems or less in sizes or vary to such extent but consistently calls them Universes, infinite, etc. Those terms usage pretty much establishes their sizes to a proper Universe, so to disregard them based on the statement of prior, old novels written at different times involving entirely different story seems a bit unfair imo and more like either a entirely retcon or consistency issue with the story written at different times. If newer novels had any implications about the sizes varying to such extent despite being called Universes, I wouldn't have had any issue with it.
Click to expand...
Well if there's no mention about their size being less than Universal or Infinite and the fact that they are Universal/Infinite is reiterated throughout the story then yes I agree with the fact that it's most likely a retcon.
 
Azertyhuuh said:
Imagine with me: the Demon King novel—let me just tell you, it’s an old novel from 2015 or earlier, unofficial, stopped at volume 3, and didn’t even meet the minimum requirement to be called a novel. It’s unofficial and hasn’t continued since that year.
Meanwhile, the Yogiri novel started in 2019 or 2020, and the author wrote 15 volumes, it became official, and Instant Death got an anime adaptation for the first part, a manga as well, and became popular. Meanwhile, the Demon King novel, written in 2015, is unofficial, can’t even really be called a novel, and the author himself stopped it and moved on to Instant Death in 2019, which succeeded and got everything.
Click to expand...
If there are so many issues then i agree that it shouldn't be used to disregard anything introduced in or retconned by ID.
 
The problem I have with this is that you are presupposing it is a retcon, when that does not necessarily have to be the case, and both pieces of information can coexist at the same time.

I do not remember it ever being specified that all of them are infinite or anything like that, uh.
 
Reiner04 said:
If there are so many issues then i agree that it shouldn't be used to disregard anything introduced in or retconned by ID.
Click to expand...
I need to open a thread regarding the Demon King novel because it does not meet the criteria to be considered a novel. It started in 2015 and stopped at volume 3. Are there even novels that only have 3 volumes? It is also unofficial and cannot even truly be considered a novel. It stopped, and 11 years have passed since it ended at volume 3. The author abandoned it in 2016, and in 2019 or 2020, he began writing Instant Death, completed 15 volumes, and his novel became official. It even got an anime and a manga and became popular. Meanwhile, the novel the author started in 2015 failed, is unofficial, and stopped at volume 3.

Why do you think he wrote Instant Death in 2019 and didn’t continue the Demon King novel? And can it even be called a novel? It’s literally unofficial, the author forgot about it, and it doesn’t meet the requirements here in the VSBW community to be considered eligible for use. There are very strict standards here for a work to be considered valid, so I need to open a thread to discuss whether it is eligible for use or not. Without a doubt, no one will approve its use, but I will open it anyway.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
The problem I have with this is that you are presupposing it is a retcon, when that does not necessarily have to be the case, and both pieces of information can coexist at the same time.

I do not remember it ever being specified that all of them are infinite or anything like that, uh.
Click to expand...
The in-general statement of CF being described as 'Universe' or as 'Infinite' within Instant Death is a relatively more reliable statement for the cosmology (and enough as whole) than over a statement from a 4-year-old novel in 2015 that lacked popularity and was eventually stopped being updated by the author. If ID had any evidence of preserving that notion from so old novels then i wouldn't had any issue. But for now, imo, CFs in general will be considered Universes.
 
Reiner04 said:
The in-general statement of CF being described as 'Universe' or as 'Infinite' within Instant Death is a relatively more reliable statement for the cosmology (and enough as whole) than over a statement from a 4-year-old novel in 2015 that lacked popularity and was eventually stopped being updated by the author. If ID had any evidence of preserving that notion from so old novels then i wouldn't had any issue. But for now, imo, CFs in general will be considered Universes.
Click to expand...

Tbf “Universe” is not a term that establishes a constant size across all possible contexts. You can perfectly well call a space the size of a house a “universe,” because the term’s intrinsic meaning is that of a totality.

And as for the “infinite” point, I have no issue with that, but the point here is that such a characteristic is not generalized to all CFs, so there is no reason to assume they are all the same.

The matter regarding the validity of the other novel is already more debatable, but if we take it into account, making those assumptions would strike me as odd ngl.
 
Cipher72 said:
I think we should try searching for scans within ID that validates CF's being Universal (not world) or Infinite in size same with statements that denote otherwise (if any), do the same with the other Novel. Complie them and then come to a conclusion.
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Imagine as someone who hasn't read shit. I literally have to scratch the scans, arguements out of everyone who has read the novel in this thread, in order to evaluate them. How good it would have been if i was already provided with those arguements and scans and just had to evaluzte them. But no 💢💢💢💢
 
Reiner04 said:
@Azertyhuuh
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eamkcy.webp

Just tag UMR, I am sure he has them, Elizhaa might as well.
 
Reiner04 said:
The issue i see with that is that ID novel does not mention anything abput CFs being solar systems or less in sizes or vary to such extent but consistently calls them Universes, infinite, etc. Those terms usage pretty much establishes their sizes to a proper Universe, so to disregard them based on the statement of prior, old novels written at different times involving entirely different story seems a bit unfair imo and more like either a entirely retcon or consistency issue with the story written at different times. If newer novels had any implications about the sizes varying to such extent despite being called Universes, I wouldn't have had any issue with it.
Click to expand...
Reiner04 said:
@sukuna171 @Azertyhuuh Do you have the scans where CF has been called either Universe or Infinite, if so, can you post all of them since i want to see if they are consistent and has been called so in-general.
Click to expand...
@Elizhaa @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless Since you 2 are supporters, any comment?
 
Reiner04 said:
@sukuna171 @Azertyhuuh Do you have the scans where CF has been called either Universe or Infinite, if so, can you post all of them since i want to see if they are consistent and has been called so in-general.
Click to expand...
I have this erm

Differently from a normal timeline, a celestial foundation consists of not only the universe, but also a vessel/canopy that envelops said universe, The Celestial Foundation is capable of containing multiple timelines simultaneously. Whenever Darian died, his soul was able to travel back in time. Every time he travelled back to the past because of his death, it created an entirely different timeline, there are also numerous parallel worlds inside the Celestial Foundation

This is supported by Lynel's Random Walk ability. Every time he dies, he is sent to parallel universes with different possibilities to ensure his survival. And he is stated to have died "countless times (scan dosnt work, but in the same chapter it says he died countless times)

this all from my goat oblivion
 
''それは,文字通りの意味で,異なる次元の世界でした.それをアストラル界,スピリットワールド,またはアビスと呼んでください.それはいくつもの名前で呼ばれていましたが,簡単に言えば,長さ,幅,高さが追加の5次元で補完された世界でした.男はその次元と三次元空間の間を自由に移動することができました.それは信じられないほど強力な能力でした.その次元を 通過 す る こ と で 、 彼 は 好 き な 場所 に 行 き 、 攻 撃 を 避 け る こ と が で き ま し た。彼 示 し た よ よ う に 、 彼 は そ れ を 使 使ことさえできました.その上,普通の人間はこの次元を知覚することができず,彼らが反撃することを不可能にしました.この下の存在ページ上の文字としてのみ表示されます.寸法の 違 い の た め''
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Translates to:
It was a world of different dimensions, in the literal sense of the word. Call it the Astral Realm, the Spirit World, or the Abyss. It was called by a number of names, but simply put, it was a world whose length, width, and height were complemented by an additional fifth dimension. The man was able to move freely between that dimension and three-dimensional space. It was an incredibly powerful ability. By passing through that dimension, he could go anywhere he wanted and avoid any attacks. As he had shown, he could use it to bypass all sorts of defenses and even destroy his enemies from the inside. Besides, ordinary humans could not perceive this dimension, making it impossible for them to fight back. The lower beings appears only as a character on a page. Due to the difference in dimensions.
Click to expand...
But the English translation says fourth dimension
 
Reiner04 said:
@Elizhaa @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless Since you 2 are supporters, any comment?
Click to expand...
n0UDwPO.png


BoFMwAh.png


And they also have their own flow of time:

oieu1bk.png


As for the infinite stuff, refer to my comment regarding a CF being bigger than Alice's infinite kingdom


Imagine with me: the Demon King novel—let me just tell you, it’s an old novel from 2015 or earlier, unofficial, stopped at volume 3, and didn’t even meet the minimum requirement to be called a novel. It’s unofficial and hasn’t continued since that year.
Click to expand...

True. Not only that, it got cancelled and Fujitaka said he would redo it from scratch. One could even argue we shouldnt use any statements from it for now since it got axed and it wont be the same novel anymore anyway.
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
n0UDwPO.png


BoFMwAh.png


And they also have their own flow of time:

oieu1bk.png


As for the infinite stuff, refer to my comment regarding a CF being bigger than Alice's infinite kingdom




True. Not only that, it got cancelled and Fujitaka said he would redo it from scratch. One could even argue we shouldnt use any statements from it for now since it got axed and it wont be the same novel anymore anyway.
Click to expand...
Well then yeah, i maintain my agreement with not using that novel to disregard statements from ID, in any capacity.
 
Reiner04 said:
Get the scan translated in TL thread in that case, i suppose.
Click to expand...
長さ, 幅, 高さが追加の5次元で補完された世界でした
Click to expand...
The translation says↓

It was a world where length, width, and height were supplemented by five additional dimensions.
Click to expand...

There is really something strange. I think the translation as 'four dimensions' is incorrect, especially since the number 5 is as clear as day in the Japanese text. According to the translation shown, it seems that the Abyss has 8 dimensions plus a temporal dimension, which would make it 9 dimensions in total.

I think it would be better to redo the translation, because the number 5 is perfectly clear in the Japanese text. If the translation you currently have is correct, that would mean the Abyss has 9 dimensions.
 
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