[4-7-0] Didn't he want more fun? - Fushiguro Toji vs Ryomen Sukuna

[Nonynho]

16 Fingers "Megumi's Body" Sukuna was used, Divine Flame is restricted and he had limited prior knowledge of who Toji was
Toji had Prior Knowledge and 10min of prep before finding Sukuna
Speed equal, fight in Silent Hill

"They would all bear witness to the bare flesh of the one who is free. To the one who left it all behind! And his overwhelming intensity!!" - @Nonynho, @LandonTheGuy, @BlackDarkness679, @CastoriceTheFifth

"In every age.. the insects come crawling... out of the woodwork."- @Arkenis, @Apotheosis69, @Mbpoops, @Raiden38, @Rodriiogo, @Mommyleona, @Nierre, @Saqphire

"You must not forget that even pandas cry" (Incon)-

 

[MochOath]

doesnt the scaling chain go Toji = End of CG Maki ≤ End of CG Yuta ≈ Ryu << 15 Finger Sukuna?

 

[Arkenis]

Sukuna fra. Maki was beat up by a held back ct Sukuna and still couldn't put him down, Toji's prep amounts to nothing than deflecting dismantle spam until Sukuna decides to cleave and do serious damage which either gores Toji or leaves him retreating which is impossible against Sukuna. All his flyheads get destroyed, SSK gets blocked, ISOH might get took or just ain't gonna be enough. I'd say it's 6/10 Sukuna wins without domain and if he decides to pop mini domain he's killing Toji

 

[Nonynho]

doesnt the scaling chain go Toji = End of CG Maki ≤ End of CG Yuta ≈ Ryu << 15 Finger Sukuna?

With Sukuna's profile stating he could face Maki i didn't think it was the case, so i need you to get me proof for it

Sukuna fra. Maki was beat up by a held back ct Sukuna and still couldn't put him down, Toji's prep amounts to nothing than deflecting dismantle spam until Sukuna decides to cleave and do serious damage which either gores Toji or leaves him retreating which is impossible against Sukuna. All his flyheads get destroyed, SSK gets blocked, ISOH might get took or just ain't gonna be enough. I'd say it's 6/10 Sukuna wins without domain and if he decides to pop mini domain he's killing Toji

Can't really say that would be exactly the case because by knowing which tools would bring no results and having prep time, Toji could just use the not-good-enough tools to distract Sukuna.
By our standards here in the wiki, Toji is able to put Maki down so he should have a margin good enough to win here with prep time, no?

 

[Arkenis]

Can't really say that would be exactly the case because by knowing which tools would bring no results and having prep time, Toji could just use the not-good-enough tools to distract Sukuna.

Huh? He only brings in three different tools and a regular katana.

By our standards here in the wiki, Toji is able to put Maki down so he should have a margin good enough to win here with prep time, no?

With tools yeah? But that doesn't matter much here. But he's not winning this with prep.

 

[Nonynho]

Since this'll be just going back and forth, i'll count ur vote for Sukuna and mine for Toji

 

[ExSENNA]

15/16F Sukuna cooks everyone in the verse other than Gojo

 

[Arkenis]

Since this'll be just going back and forth, i'll count ur vote for Sukuna and mine for Toji

it just started, we should be going bnf

 

[ExSENNA]

Sukuna throws dismantles. If that didn't get the job done he goes closes distance and goes for a cleave. If that didn't work somehow, he just expands his domain and Toji becomes dust.

Toji cannot kill Sukuna before he expands domain no matter the prep time or prior knowledge. I'd say it's stomp


Also OP says it's puppet Toji. That version of Toji acts only on instincts, not sure if he can strategize, and he only has Playful Cloud. It's a bit confusing as it's not a separate key since nothing changes other than equipment and mindset

 

[Nonynho]

it just started, we should be going bnf

But there's actually nothing else already lol We're already at "nu-uh u lose"

Also OP says it's puppet Toji. That version of Toji acts only on instincts, not sure if he can strategize, and he only has Playful Cloud. It's a bit confusing as it's not a separate key since nothing changes other than equipment and mindset

Should i change to regular Toji to avoid confusion?

 

[Nonynho]

bump

Changed to regular Toji to give him his equipment

 

[Arkenis]

Didn't you always give him prep?

 

[Nonynho]

Didn't you always give him prep?

Yeah but Puppet doesn't have access to the rest of his equip, which seems vital here

I'm betting on Toji winning 51% of the time because of his cunning usage of the equip and strategization, specially knowing that most equipment won't be properly useful and just using them to distract while some precise ISoH and Katana hits gg him before Shrine goes boom

 

[Arkenis]

I'm betting on Toji winning 51% of the time because of his cunning usage of the equip and strategization, specially knowing that most equipment won't be properly useful and just using them to distract while some precise ISoH and Katana hits gg him before Shrine goes boom

All his equipment gets took or destroyed. He does not strategize in any meaningful way, let alone against Sukuna. ISOH won't do anything, Katana probably gets destroyed. He can just win before domain.

 

[LaserPrecision]

All his equipment gets took

To be fair, Sukuna can't take his weapon. Toji's LS is better as evidenced by Maki flinging Sukuna when he tried ripping SSK from her hand. Not that it matters much but just thought I'd say.

 

[Arkenis]

To be fair, Sukuna can't take his weapon. Toji's LS is better as evidenced by Maki flinging Sukuna when he tried ripping SSK from her hand. Not that it matters much but just thought I'd say.

Weaker Sukuna.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Weaker Sukuna.

It was 20 finger Sukuna. So what if he was weaker, he was around as strong as 16 Finger Sukuna WHILE weakened. It's why he had to use Cleave to kill Yuji or Yuta in a single hit because they were as tough as Ryu. The same way 16f needed Cleave to one-shot Ryu.

You would need to prove 20f weakened Sukuna has lower LS than 16f Sukuna. Maybe there is proof but from what I know so far I don't recall that.

 

[Nonynho]

He does not strategize in any meaningful way, let alone against Sukuna.

Sukuna is someone who plays with the food, he tests out as he sees himself as superior which he usually is
Toji is the plan guy. The only time where we saw his full potential as a fighter was executing his plan to get the vessel against some of the most impressive sorcerers that ever existed who, much like Sukuna, changed the balance of Jujutsu as a whole.

To just say "nuh-uh he doesn't strategize meaningfully" is not good enough, even if we're talking about Sukuna

All his equipment gets took or destroyed.

As the colleague @LaserPrecision* pointed out, Toji's LS is not leaving it easy for Sukuna to just grab his stuff, and seeing both (his opp wants to grab his equip and that he has difficulty doing so) gives more ammunition for Toji, who is a more skillfull fighter than most who faced Sukuna and won't leave eventual opportunities be.

ISOH won't do anything

ISoH:

• Inverted Spear of Heaven: Power Nullification (The Inverted Spear of Heaven forcibly stops Cursed Techniques)

Yuji's Body Sukuna Resistances:

• Soul Manipulation (Prevented Mahito from interacting with him and Yuji's soul.)
• Heat Manipulation (Unfazed by fighting on top of Jogo's heated meteor and was not scared of Jogo's Domain Expansion.)
• Poison Manipulation (Ryomen Sukuna is the King of Curses, leading him to be completely immune to all kinds of lethal poisons.)
• Possession (Spiritual; If another soul was to inhabit and try to possess the body of one of Sukuna's vessels, Sukuna would destroy the inhabitant's soul completely.)

So... Why won't it? Sukuna does not know that this exists so he won't be negating its effectiveness just existing, and combining with other surprises like taking advantage that Sukuna's trying to snag the equipment, Toji is definetely doing something with it, of course, it won't just kill Sukuna instantly but the Katana helps with that. Speaking of...

Katana probably gets destroyed.

Because...?
If Sukuna's just blasting Special-Grade Cursed Tools at will, why does Mahoraga still has its blade, for starters?
I don't doubt Sukuna is capable of wrecking the equipment, i just don't think it is something automatic as how you speak makes it sound

 

[Arkenis]

To just say "nuh-uh he doesn't strategize meaningfully" is not good enough, even if we're talking about Sukuna

What is the strategy against dismantle spam?

ISoH:

That doesn't help when Sukuna uses cleave on his face.

Because...?

Because its a regular katana, it'll be destroyed by dismantle or Sukuna just punching it.

If Sukuna's just blasting Special-Grade Cursed Tools at will, why does Mahoraga still has its blade, for starters?

A ce imbued blade, Toji's isn't.

I don't doubt Sukuna is capable of wrecking the equipment, i just don't think it is something automatic as how you speak makes it sound

Yeah I guess he could just not go for it, and instead cleave Toji or overwhelm him with dismantles.

 

[LaserPrecision]

who is a more skillfull fighter than most who faced Sukuna

To be fair Maki and Yuji should both be more skilled than Toji

 

[Nonynho]

To be fair Maki and Yuji should both be more skilled than Toji

I think we can talk about Yuji because of Black Flash and his undeniable Acc. Develop.
But Maki unfortunately is not more skilled than him. Hell, he even beat her here in the wiki lol

What is the strategy against dismantle spam?

Prior Knowledge+Equal speed

Because its a regular katana, it'll be destroyed by dismantle or Sukuna just punching it.

Even if that was the case, it can be used for distraction, which i have talked about quite a bit

Yeah I guess he could just not go for it, and instead cleave Toji or overwhelm him with dismantles.

It seems IC after trying to do what you claimed he would in a CQC scenario... but by this point he should either be dead or throw the Shrine...
And i think 51% of the time, it is the first case

 

[LaserPrecision]

But Maki unfortunately is not more skilled than him. Hell, he even beat her here in the wiki lol

I think that's wrong and the people who argued for Toji were being dishonest unless Toji had some advantage over him. Maki just has better skill feats and statements than Toji. Toji just kinda piggybacks off of her.

 

[Arkenis]

Prior Knowledge+Equal speed

I'm asking what is the prep? How does he tackle this fight?

Even if that was the case, it can be used for distraction, which i have talked about quite a bit

How so?

It seems IC after trying to do what you claimed he would in a CQC scenario... but by this point he should either be dead or throw the Shrine...

Idk he does cleave pretty quickly in fights, especially since this'll be cqc. How will Toji fend against that? What would kill him? Cause with his dismantle barrier it'll be hard to land most strikes.

 

[ExSENNA]

This is an obvious stomp. There is nothing Toji can do here. He can't kill Sukuna before Sukuna expands Domain and oneshots him. Nobody in jjk other than Gojo can win against 15/16F Sukuna. Toji has no wincons here whatsoever just like every other non-Gojo

 

[LaserPrecision]

Nobody in jjk other than Gojo can win against 15/16F Sukuna

Dabura and Modulo Yuji:

 

[ExSENNA]

Dabura and Modulo Yuji:

I clearly only talk about original jjk not modulo

 

[Nonynho]

I'm asking what is the prep? How does he tackle this fight?

Well he already knows that he can either regular cut or cut with adaptative force to one
And can react to those.

By knowing how Sukuna throws those, and that the latter doesn't know about his knowledge, Toji can strategically enclose the distance and engange in CQC

As he is also very stealthy, another thing to contribute with his tactical approach is the lack of Extrasensory Perception or something alike, even with Sukuna knowing that Toji also has no cursed energy

How so?

As i said, by Sukuna spending time and effort to snag or break Toji's equipment, Toji can use those as opportunities to attack effectively with the tools that have use against him, for example, trying to pull ISoH and just pulling the infinite chain with it. Toji is a relentless and skillfull fighter so he should be able to capitalize on the "?" that it generates for a split-second.
That and some similar examples can lead to openings for Toji who can be very dangerous too

 

[Arkenis]

As he is also very stealthy, another thing to contribute with his tactical approach is the lack of Extrasensory Perception or something alike, even with Sukuna knowing that Toji also has no cursed energy

Sukuna will just sense via the cursed tool.

As i said, by Sukuna spending time and effort to snag or break Toji's equipment, Toji can use those as opportunities to attack effectively with the tools that have use against him, for example, trying to pull ISoH and just pulling the infinite chain with it. Toji is a relentless and skillfull fighter so he should be able to capitalize on the "?" that it generates for a split-second.

Couldn't Sukuna just destroy the chain? Plus while its a cool plan, that just makes hitting Sukuna impossible. He couldn't even land it on Gojo after all.

That and some similar examples can lead to openings for Toji who can be very dangerous too

Idk without the SSK always out, Toji's not doing much but I see your points

 

[Nonynho]

Sukuna will just sense via the cursed tool.

The tools are hidden in his that inventory curse, remember?
By the time Sukuna senses something, Toji is already at CQC range

Couldn't Sukuna just destroy the chain?

Pulling the chain+Discovering it is "endless"+Breaking it
All of those give at least one window for Toji to attack, which is enough to be fatal

Plus while its a cool plan, that just makes hitting Sukuna impossible. He couldn't even land it on Gojo after all.

Many things can happen after he pulls (and according to ya even breaks) the chain, like Toji getting the Katana
And if Sukuna reacts to the Katana (VERY unlikely as we're talking about splits of splits of seconds and Sukuna's busy doing other things), it gives time to either recover the ISoH or use a useless Tool to recover ISoH and GG

Idk without the SSK always out, Toji's not doing much but I see your points

By knowing how Sukuna operates, he can just take off the ISoH with the chain and SSK at the same time before engaging with Sukuna in CQC and then the scenario we're speaking about starts to unfold

Again, I'm definetely not saying Toji wins easily, just that because of how both operate, he wins 51% of the time in this scenario

 

[Arkenis]

The tools are hidden in his that inventory curse, remember?
By the time Sukuna senses something, Toji is already at CQC range

He has to pull them out. So he'll approach Sukuna with that already out.

Pulling the chain+Discovering it is "endless"+Breaking it
All of those give at least one window for Toji to attack, which is enough to be fatal

A simple dismantle would cut the chain, I don't see that window being big enough really.

Many things can happen after he pulls (and according to ya even breaks) the chain, like Toji getting the Katana
And if Sukuna reacts to the Katana (VERY unlikely as we're talking about splits of splits of seconds and Sukuna's busy doing other things), it gives time to either recover the ISoH or use a useless Tool to recover ISoH and GG

Toji doesn't have much to make Sukuna busy. Max three weapons, and really only one is gonna be useful.

Again, I'm definetely not saying Toji wins easily, just that because of how both operate, he wins 51% of the time in this scenario

Eh, I'd say it's like 4/10 Toji wins it.

 

[Nonynho]

He has to pull them out. So he'll approach Sukuna with that already out.

Nope, he'll approach Sukuna with nothing in the hand until he's very close, pretty much like how he did with Gojo who, with the six eyes, has a better perception than Sukuna, so things should work

A simple dismantle would cut the chain, I don't see that window being big enough really.

They have the same combat speed and Toji is a very flexible and acrobatic fella so we can put him in this situation and guess he'd be utilizing those "impossibly small" windows

Toji doesn't have much to make Sukuna busy. Max three weapons, and really only one is gonna be useful.

SSK is also a bit menacing for Sukuna even though he has the regen, and the time needed to break or attempt pulling anything is useful enough

Eh, I'd say it's like 4/10 Toji wins it.

Again, i disagree

 

[Arkenis]

Nope, he'll approach Sukuna with nothing in the hand until he's very close, pretty much like how he did with Gojo who, with the six eyes, has a better perception than Sukuna, so things should work

Then he's left defenseless.

SSK is also a bit menacing for Sukuna even though he has the regen, and the time needed to break or attempt pulling anything is useful enough

He can just block it with dismantle. It was useless against him when Maki used it.

 

[Nonynho]

Then he's left defenseless.

Last time he approached "defenseless":

He can just block it with dismantle. It was useless against him when Maki used it.

Maki and Toji face him in completely different scenarios, approaches and strategies
Even if he blocks, Toji is using multiple equipments at the same time (, knows that Sukuna can use it like that,) and every action can bring up opportunities for deadly attacks from Toji

 

[Arkenis]

Last time he approached "defenseless":

Maki and Toji face him in completely different scenarios, approaches and strategies
Even if he blocks, Toji is using multiple equipments at the same time (, knows that Sukuna can use it like that,) and every action can bring up opportunities for deadly attacks from Toji

Its a sick Gojo off guard vs Sukuna. Idk why you're tryna equate these scenarios lmao.

If he blocks, there goes Toji win con every time he tries it. He could just cleave the weapon and destroy it. Only way those opportunities work is if Sukuna is sloppy, he just won't be.

 

[Nonynho]

Its a sick Gojo off guard vs Sukuna. Idk why you're tryna equate these scenarios lmao.

Sick Gojo+his bf+their friends looking at that general direction*
By Toji starting in stealth, it is his usual strategy to approach and then get the weapons very quickly, and remember that he specializes in killing sorcerers

If he blocks, there goes Toji win con every time he tries it. He could just cleave the weapon and destroy it. Only way those opportunities work is if Sukuna is sloppy, he just won't be.

Blocking with Cleave or breaking the weapon with it generate opportunities for Toji to try.
The thing is not that Sukuna would have to be sloppy, the thing is that by them having the same combat speed and Toji's reactions being crazy good, he can use those "impossibly small windows" to get the job done

 

[Arkenis]

Sick Gojo+his bf+their friends looking at that general direction*

What?

By Toji starting in stealth, it is his usual strategy to approach and then get the weapons very quickly, and remember that he specializes in killing sorcerers

He still has to bring the weapon out. Otherwise he's just attacking a sorcerer with a regular katana that will just rct. It's a bad plan.

Blocking with Cleave or breaking the weapon with it generate opportunities for Toji to try.

No it doesn't. Cleave doesn't require some focus that he can just jump away or punch Toji away.

The thing is not that Sukuna would have to be sloppy, the thing is that by them having the same combat speed and Toji's reactions being crazy good, he can use those "impossibly small windows" to get the job done

Toji's reactions aren't good against Sukuna, we've already seen how Maki got treated and it helped her little.

This is still all with the idea Toji needs to land a killing blow or else Sukuna decides to domain.

 

[Nonynho]

What?

taking a look at the first scanlation that appears after google'ing, you can see this:

Gojo was the only one with the back in the direction Toji came from, people were looking at Gojo and couldn't perceive what happened

And he doesn't fully blitz neither Gojo nor Geto, he's just that much of a stealthy mf

No it doesn't. Cleave doesn't require some focus that he can just jump away or punch Toji away.

While Sukuna's answering this move, Toji's fast pace can already be attacking with the weapon in the other hand

This is still all with the idea Toji needs to land a killing blow or else Sukuna decides to domain.

Sukuna usually takes a bit to use the shrine, and as soon as ISoH hits even once, he's cooked

 

[Nonynho]

Again, we're just going back and forth


"no it won't work because this", "yes it'll work because that" and it goes on and on...

 

[ShionAH]

wtf?? 15f Sukuna no diffs anyone below the Top 4 lol, hows this fair?

Whats even worse is Sukuna can also use domain on Toji unlike any other domain user, he's cooked

 

[Nonynho]

wtf?? 15f Sukuna no diffs anyone below the Top 4 lol, hows this fair?

ngl i'm quite tired that people just say that with no basis

Bring me a scaling chain, databook or at least something, because the profiles don't indicate such and with the conditions put up, both sides are skilled enough so that this is at least fair, and i'm quite sure that Toji has enough to win a tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny bit more often than not for all i brought above

Like, c'mon!!