Vader vs Pochita

[AthelChan]

Voting Vader for gunshy's reasons.

 

[GunshyFever]

Voting Vader for gunshy's reasons.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Vader for Gunshy's reasons

 

[Epyriel]

Using what we currently have on the profiles (granted Vader’s AP needs to be updated) I’ll say yeah Vader takes it over the blank character FRA.
(Sorry Gunshy)

 

[GunshyFever]

 

[DaReaperMan]

Give up.

 

[GunshyFever]

I got Rick rolled in the big 26, this must be rock bottom

 

[AthelChan]

Voting Vader for gunshy's reasons.

as you can tell i dont know that puppy thing, i want to vote for them.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Give up.

Rick roll in Big 26, absolute cinema

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Give up.

It will never die.

 

[AthelChan]

yo lowk that vote is for pochita lmao

 

[AthelChan]

i spelt vader because i forgot he's fighting pochita

 

[GunshyFever]

Maybe the name "Pochita" is a reference to Pochitos

 

[DaReaperMan]

How many Rabbits does it take to beat a Hero of Hell?

 

[Epyriel]

How many Rabbits does it take to beat a Hero of Hell?

Why is there 29 citations for them being called rabbits

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why is there 29 citations for them being called rabbits

Because I comitted to the bit and started listing all the zones they could be found in

 

[GunshyFever]

How many Rabbits does it take to beat a Hero of Hell?

The Solitary Warrior from Hell after the 3 million rabbits decide to jump him with the power of friendship

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

How many Rabbits does it take to beat a Hero of Hell?

Cool OC eats one and E.E diffs

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Here is where you fall short again. The barrier is created through the Force and Telekinesis is described as Vader putting his mind over matter to manipulate objects, shield himself or blast opponents. Because of that the barrier itself is still a telekinetic construct made of Force energy. The description also says the barrier can cause incoming projectiles like Proton Torpedoes to veer off course and explode in front of him. That shows the barrier is not just something you "punch through". It is actively applying force to redirect or repel incoming attacks.

Pochita can simply walk up to the barrier and walk straight through it and destroy it. That is how massive the LS difference is here.

Dude, you can read what's written on the Force page.

Forcefield Creation and Enchance Air Manipulation (With Force Barrier, The Force can be used to manipulate the atmosphere around a user, to create a bubble to protect them and others from harmful environments.)

He creates a bubble by manipulating the atmosphere. Telekinesis is used, but it's not exactly a bubble made solely with telekinesis.

It's still something you have to physically strike (it's not a barrier that uses opposing force against you).

Force Push and Force Barrier inherently work differently. They are separate abilities and the profile never states that they function the same way. And I already addressed this above, but I'm getting my information from the profile, so if nonsense is your issue, you are receiving it from the profile.

Everything is explained on the Force Manipulation page that you're ignoring.

Force Barrier is a technique that manipulates the atmosphere to create a physical barrier. It's like an AOE shield/armor.

If you're so insistent on the Force Barrier's functionality being based on a description at the end of Vader's page instead of the Force Manipulation page, I can change it later.

That's applied by the Force which is telekinesis, not working here for the same reason that I had mentioned. That's clearly an LS depiction, you can't slow down the target with telekinesis when they are near 2 million times stronger than you.

It doesn't use telekinesis, it's literally described as using the Force to cause slowness/freezing of movement. In any case, it was accepted working this way, so that's how it is.

• AP gap is mitigated by Pochita's regeneration and immortality. His acrobatics make him difficult to hit. He can react when something unexpected occurs (via his instinctive action) and regenerate even if he takes damage.
• I already mentioned that Pochita has very strong heat resistance himself.

• His acrobatics won't matter much compared to the IMMENSE reach of the technique.
• Pochita (3871°C) vs Lightsaber (28,000°C). The resistance isn't nearly enough.

• That is not how KE blasts work. It is a concussive force. It would hurt him yes but that is not the 8x gap needed to one shot. At best it would make Pochita cough up some blood if he gets caught in it. With Pochita's acrobatics and constant movement while flash stepping and gaining speed it's very unlikely to hit him in the first place.
• That's not listed on his profile. Could you send a scan or a statement at least. Something we can actually work with.
• Not really. They inherently function the same. One just activates differently.
• Pochita also has enhanced senses. Also cut the perception argument. If you remove speed as a factor when a slower character fights a faster character then the match becomes invalid.
• Majorly inferior to Pochita's acrobatic feats and to the acrobatics Pochita has already dealt with.

The difference is 5x, which is enough to cause a lot of damage (and that's ignoring the fact that the lightsaber will cut Pochita in one shot). Furthermore, Vader has slow-motion perception amplifiers, speed boosters, lightsaber heat amplifiers, and all the other stats that will widen the gap even further. Pochita can't keep up with Vader's Empowerment/Rage power, especially since Pochita will be somewhat weakened by Ebb/Flow.

You know, again, why don't you just check the Force Manipulation page? It's literally the most important page for Force users; Type 2 immortality is listed twice there. In the Jedi Initial and Sith Lord tabs.

Pochita's enhanced senses don't even come close to Vader's.

Enhanced Senses, Extrasensory Perception, Cosmic Awareness, Information Analysis, Clairvoyance, Precognition and Retrocognition (With Farsight; Force Users can see as clearly as most sentients do on a well-lit day even in total darkness, blinding smoke, or despite lacking eyes or having lost their sight, perceive microscopic details of an object, see through an object as though it were transparent, observe everything around them simultaneously across a full 360-degree arc, and shift their point of perception to any location within close range on a planetary scale—whether to a higher altitude above a world’s surface, along that surface, or in any direction through space—effectively relocating their personal viewpoint far from their physical body as though operating a remote viewing mechanism. With Force Sense, which expands the Force user's consciousness on a galactic scale, allowing them to sense things from a distance, even while in another dimension, especially when events cause a disturbance in the Force or when they have a strong connection with someone. Force Sense allows the user to feel their surroundings, sense danger, locate hidden beings or enemies even through barriers, see in total darkness, feel incoming attacks, sense the presence, emotions, and strength of others, and even hear distant voices. The Force gives a bit of precognitive ability, allowing you to see things before they happen.

Vader's acrobatics are enough when he has a colossal range advantage.

-

The idea of equalized speed and winning despite originally being slower only works if the people in this thread agree that Vader wins through speed/perception amplifiers.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Voting Vader for gunshy's reasons.

Vader for Gunshy's reasons

?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It was fun, but it's kind of tiring.

How does Chariot manage to create walls of text for VS threads?

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

It was fun, but it's kind of tiring.

How does Chariot manage to create walls of text for VS threads?

Getting possesed by the Agenda Devil /j

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Getting possesed by the Agenda Devil /j

Could Sidious transform Pochita into the hot dog devil?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Vader for Gunshy's reasons

What's your vote? I'm confused.

 

[DaReaperMan]

@Phsccarvalho what's confusing?

 

[ShionAH]

@Phsccarvalho

LOOK AT HIM.

DISGUSTING

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@Phsccarvalho what's confusing?

The other person got confused; they voted for Pochita. Are you the same?

 

[Arkansalter2]

Voting Gunshy for vader's reasons.

 

[DaReaperMan]

The other person got confused; they voted for Pochita. Are you the same?

Which way would Tzeentch go?

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Voting Vader FRA

 

[GunshyFever]

If you're so insistent on the Force Barrier's functionality being based on a description at the end of Vader's page instead of the Force Manipulation page, I can change it later.

It doesn't use telekinesis, it's literally described as using the Force to cause slowness/freezing of movement. In any case, it was accepted working this way, so that's how it is.

Alright cool. Just fix it on his profile so others like me don't go off track. My point still stands though. With that LS difference Pochita can still walk through the attack even if it is a durability based shield.

It doesn't use telekinesis, it's literally described as using the Force to cause slowness/freezing of movement. In any case, it was accepted working this way, so that's how it is.

Using the Force that Pochita is millions of times stronger than to slow his movement? You are missing the point. If Pochita is unaffected by the Force itself then he would resist the effects of it in a scenario like that.

• His acrobatics won't matter much compared to the IMMENSE reach of the technique.
• Pochita (3871°C) vs Lightsaber (28,000°C). The resistance isn't nearly enough.

• It likely would tbh. But be more specific here. What is the reach of Force Push exactly?
• Fair. Regeneration, immortality, far superior acrobatics and speed boost help him avoid taking damage and also help him recover if he does.

Vader has slow-motion perception amplifiers, speed boosters

Not sure why you keep repeating this point, because if he wins via this, that disqualifies the match.

"Any speed equalized match, in which a major reason a character loses is due to having a disadvantage against some speed value they usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against, may not be added to profiles"

Pochita can't keep up with Vader's Empowerment/Rage power, especially since Pochita will be somewhat weakened by Ebb/Flow.

According to what? Sure Empowerment/Rage could raise his AP a bit so his attacks would hurt more. That is about it. Vader still has to deal with it being nearly impossible to tag Pochita. He also has to deal with getting shredded or conceptually erased or having his guts kicked out with K.E amped Pochita's foot saws. None of this addresses the fact that regeneration is at play here. If Pochita takes fatal or serious damage he can recover back to peak condition.

You know, again, why don't you just check the Force Manipulation page? It's literally the most important page for Force users; Type 2 immortality is listed twice there. In the Jedi Initial and Sith Lord tabs..

Gotcha. I must have missed it while reading through. But yes Pochita can just erase him from existence if he continues to give him trouble.

Vader's acrobatics are enough when he has a colossal range advantage.

The idea of equalized speed and winning despite originally being slower only works if the people in this thread agree that Vader wins through speed/perception amplifiers.

Could you elaborate on what you mean here?

And no. Everyone voted FRA based on your points. So when the clock reaches 0 and grace ends this match will not be able to be added. Generally speaking the majority mutually agree that speed is part of Pochita's defeat here.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Alright cool. Just fix it on his profile so others like me don't go off track. My point still stands though. With that LS difference Pochita can still walk through the attack even if it is a durability based shield.

This would only happen if Pochita decided to smash the barrier. If he punches the barrier or tries to cut it, the barrier will block.

Using the Force that Pochita is millions of times stronger than to slow his movement? You are missing the point. If Pochita is unaffected by the Force itself then he would resist the effects of it in a scenario like that.

Because Force Stasis works in Pochita, and because it's a hax.

As I already said, Force Stasis is a paralysis/status effect hax not based on LS. Neither Pochita nor Denji have paralysis resistance or stats effects in their profiles.

If you disagree, that's not my problem since it's accepted as such. Make a CRT.

• It likely would tbh. But be more specific here. What is the reach of Force Push exactly?
• Fair. Regeneration, immortality, far superior acrobatics and speed boost help him avoid taking damage and also help him recover if he does.

It will just keep getting destroyed until Vader hits its heart. It's not that difficult since the Force Push will cover at least several kilometers (with planetary TK).

Vader has better speed boosters, which will make his speed not be very significant.

Not sure why you keep repeating this point, because if he wins via this, that disqualifies the match.

"Any speed equalized match, in which a major reason a character loses is due to having a disadvantage against some speed value they usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against, may not be added to profiles"

"Major Reason"

That's not the main argument, and Vader isn't doing a Speed Blitz.

What I'm arguing is that Vader has enough amplifiers that the kinetic energy thing from Pochita is insufficient to be significant.

According to what? Sure Empowerment/Rage could raise his AP a bit so his attacks would hurt more. That is about it. Vader still has to deal with it being nearly impossible to tag Pochita. He also has to deal with getting shredded or conceptually erased or having his guts kicked out with K.E amped Pochita's foot saws. None of this addresses the fact that regeneration is at play here. If Pochita takes fatal or serious damage he can recover back to peak condition.

Because the difference is 5X and will increase over time. The more damage Vader takes or the angrier he gets, the stronger he will become. Due to the 5X difference, Pochita's attacks will be minimized, and even more so with Vader's amplifiers/stats reduce. The piercing power of the saws is not enough to overcome a 5x gap and amp/stats reduce. Not even Pochita's speed boost will be relevant since Vader counterattacks with his own boosters.

The only thing Vader has to worry about here is being devoured or grabbed. Which is easily countered by Vader's enhanced senses, precognition, etc. All his supernatural senses will warn him that this is dangerous.

Regarding Vader not hitting Pochita, the guy has planetary range with TK and can also use Force Pull. Since Pochita doesn't fly, if he's pulled while in the air, he can't do anything.

Could you elaborate on what you mean here?

How will Pochita dodge waves of telekinetic blasts/explosion that are kilometers long and wide? Considering that their speeds are similar even to amplifiers? Furthermore, since Pochita can't fly, if he decides to dodge by jumping, Vader can simply telekinetically move him around like a doll, even though Pochita has superior LS.

 

[GunshyFever]

This would only happen if Pochita decided to smash the barrier. If he punches the barrier or tries to cut it, the barrier will block.

He can crush the barrier with sheer force by walking.

Because Force Stasis works in Pochita, and because it's a hax.

As I already said, Force Stasis is a paralysis/status effect hax not based on LS. Neither Pochita nor Denji have paralysis resistance or stats effects in their profiles.

If you disagree, that's not my problem since it's accepted as such. Make a CRT.

I'm not arguing otherwise. My point is that the attack itself is applied by the Force which affects the status of its target. If the target is superior to what the Force itself can hold then they should be able to resist it. That definitely needs a CRT to address it more specifically.

It will just keep getting destroyed until Vader hits its heart. It's not that difficult since the Force Push will cover at least several kilometers (with planetary TK).

Vader has better speed boosters, which will make his speed not be very significant.

Several km wide? Is there a specific scenario where he contextually uses this push so we can gauge how he would use it here? Also damaging Pochita's heart will not assist Vader.

"Major Reason"

That's not the main argument, and Vader isn't doing a Speed Blitz.

What I'm arguing is that Vader has enough amplifiers that the kinetic energy thing from Pochita is insufficient to be significant.

Fair.

Because the difference is 5X and will increase over time. The more damage Vader takes or the angrier he gets, the stronger he will become. Due to the 5X difference, Pochita's attacks will be minimized, and even more so with Vader's amplifiers/stats reduce. The piercing power of the saws is not enough to overcome a 5x gap and amp/stats reduce. Not even Pochita's speed boost will be relevant since Vader counterattacks with his own boosters.

The only thing Vader has to worry about here is being devoured or grabbed. Which is easily countered by Vader's enhanced senses, precognition, etc. All his supernatural senses will warn him that this is dangerous.

Regarding Vader not hitting Pochita, the guy has planetary range with TK and can also use Force Pull. Since Pochita doesn't fly, if he's pulled while in the air, he can't do anything.

Then Pochita can just kamikaze himself to devour or saw Vader. We already discussed that TK or using the Force to pull Pochita will not work since it relies on LS. If he is in the air as you mention and he pulls Pochita toward himself then it's over for him. The last thing you want is the Chainsaw Devil who refuses to die and can erase you from existence with a bite to the head and chainsaws that can rip you apart fighting you up close. At that point either Pochita just kills him or he burrows into the ground with his chainsaws and keeps getting closer.

Having enhanced senses and precognition can only take you so far against an opponent with 4 arm chainsaws who can constantly amp his speed and millions of times stronger than your LS when you try to move him or if he gets a hold of you. In a direct fight where they get close it does not matter if he can predict his moves. The chainsaws should shred through him if Pochita has not already taken a bite out of his head.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

He can crush the barrier with sheer force by walking.

And you think he'll be able to understand that he needs to crush/push instead of attack?

Anyway, if Pochita decides that, well... Precognition and Force Sense will tell Vader what's going to happen, he'll see the barrier being destroyed and either contain it or send a wave of power.

I'm not arguing otherwise. My point is that the attack itself is applied by the Force which affects the status of its target. If the target is superior to what the Force itself can hold then they should be able to resist it. That definitely needs a CRT to address it more specifically.

Ah yes, resisting the Force.

I didn't know Pochita had resistance to that.

• Energy Manipulation, Invisibility, Soul Manipulation, Abstract Existence (Type 1), Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2) (The Force is an invisible, spiritual energy field and a metaphysical power that connects and exists between all things, making life flow, uniting the universe—an energy created by all living beings, which surrounding them, penetrating them, living within them, and being everything, from electrons to planets, is made up of the Force. The Force is reality, as is life, death, rebirth, and everything in between; the very embodiment of life and death, past and future, everything and nothing; a fundamental unit that sustains all creation, containing dualities such as life and death or light and dark, which it holds in balance while also transcending them)

Pochita cannot resist Force/Force energy, nor can it be subjected to the paralysis/Status Effect Inducement effect via Force Stasis.

That definitely needs a CRT to address it more specifically

Literally everything is noted in the Force Manipulation profile.

Several km wide? Is there a specific scenario where he contextually uses this push so we can gauge how he would use it here? Also damaging Pochita's heart will not assist Vader.

Vader can extend the Force Push in an area.

We already discussed that TK or using the Force to pull Pochita will not work since it relies on LS.

We've already discussed that this is based on AP, not LS; I even sent scans detailing the telekinetic explosive blasts.

Having enhanced senses and precognition can only take you so far against an opponent with 4 arm chainsaws who can constantly amp his speed and millions of times stronger than your LS when you try to move him or if he gets a hold of you.

Enhanced senses and precognition will help Vader move and fight in the best possible way since he is also very intelligent. These two will show him that he cannot be grabbed or bitten, and he has more than enough tools to get rid of that.

As I said again, Pochita's speed boosters are irrelevant. Considering that Vader has more boosters and one almost constantly with Empowerment/Rage Power, Vader won't receive anything even close to a speed blitz.

Honestly, he doesn't even need to pull Pochita. If he lifts Pochita into the air and leaves him like that, there's nothing Pochita can do while levitating.

The chainsaws should shred through him if Pochita has not already taken a bite out of his head.

Vader has faced a guy with four arms, and well, he's nothing to him. Like, are you saying having four arms is an advantage for Vader when he's facing a guy who can basically defend against attacks coming from all directions at once?

And as I've already said again, the saws will only cause "common" damage, nothing surprising. They are 5x weaker than Vader's durability, and will be further reduced through Ebb/Flow and power amps. Vader is very durable.

Spoiler

 

[GunshyFever]

And you think he'll be able to understand that he needs to crush/push instead of attack?

Anyway, if Pochita decides that, well... Precognition and Force Sense will tell Vader what's going to happen, he'll see the barrier being destroyed and either contain it or send a wave of power.

Yes I do believe so. Vader would not even see the barrier be destroyed because it would be destroyed instantly the moment Pochita walks through it. I do not think you understand how large a 2 million LS difference actually is. Just 8x would have been enough to effectively crush the barrier with minimal effort just to put things into perspective.

Ah yes, resisting the Force.

I didn't know Pochita had resistance to that.

Pochita cannot resist Force/Force energy, nor can it be subjected to the paralysis/Status Effect Inducement effect via Force Stasis.

Literally everything is noted in the Force Manipulation profile.

I missed this. Fairs.

Vader can extend the Force Push in an area.

A wide spread attack does not look nearly as potent here. It seems more like a heavy wind sweeping trees and terrain out of their roots. The City level telekinetic wave appears to be spread over a wide surface area which naturally makes it less potent. This means that the more spread and range he uses the less potent the attack is on Pochita himself.

We've already discussed that this is based on AP, not LS; I even sent scans detailing the telekinetic explosive blasts.

Do not get it twisted. I agreed that Force Push is AP because it is described as a "wave of kinetic energy". I also clarified that push and pull feats are LS or movements that functionally require LS to resist. Force Push is the only variant of the Force that I am currently agreeing counts as AP. You cannot say that pulling someone, controlling their movement with TK, or dragging their body toward you, which is literally the definition of lifting strength, is not lifting strength but AP. That is not what those movements are and it is not what we agreed to.

Enhanced senses and precognition will help Vader move and fight in the best possible way since he is also very intelligent. These two will show him that he cannot be grabbed or bitten, and he has more than enough tools to get rid of that.

As I said again, Pochita's speed boosters are irrelevant. Considering that Vader has more boosters and one almost constantly with Empowerment/Rage Power, Vader won't receive anything even close to a speed blitz.

I am afraid that no matter what he does the outcome would be similar once they fight up close.

This is someone who is equal in speed with Pochita like Vader is here. The chainsaws will dismantle him up close. I doubt Vader has ever fought someone with four arms and extended chainsaws that can pierce through him who is also closer to him in stats. On top of that he has to risk getting his head bitten off. Instinctive action and precognition may help him but all I see is Pochita overwhelming his senses up-close.

Honestly, he doesn't even need to pull Pochita. If he lifts Pochita into the air and leaves him like that, there's nothing Pochita can do while levitating.

Burrow his chainsaws in the ground and pull himself down? as I mentioned before. That's also like a perfect opportunity to let Pochita pull a scorpion and or even just throw his chainsaws and lasso him toward himself to devour or shred him.

Vader has faced a guy with four arms, and well, he's nothing to him. Like, are you saying having four arms is an advantage for Vader when he's facing a guy who can basically defend against attacks coming from all directions at once?

And as I've already said again, the saws will only cause "common" damage, nothing surprising. They are 5x weaker than Vader's durability, and will be further reduced through Ebb/Flow and power amps. Vader is very durable.

Spoiler

Was that guy close to Vader in terms of stats in any way shape or form? Regardless it does not matter. Having four arms and having four extended chainsaw arms are completely different things. I also do not think I need to reiterate the fact that Pochita's chainsaws have piercing damage capable of cutting through Vader since I do not want to sound like a broken record. I've addressed it multiple times. Let us move on instead of re-stating points.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Gunshy, what about "Vader has Precognition" didn't click that he can literally see what the Chainsaw Man is gonna do next? If a barrier ain't gonna work, which you assume it won't, he's gonna exercise that 5x AP gap and throw him like a kilometer away. BEFORE it breaks.

 

[GunshyFever]

Gunshy, what about "Vader has Precognition" didn't click that he can literally see what the Chainsaw Man is gonna do next? If a barrier ain't gonna work, which you assume it won't, he's gonna exercise that 5x AP gap and throw him like a kilometer away. BEFORE it breaks.

Yeah for sure he can. However the fight starts up close and I am arguing that his senses will be overwhelmed by Pochita while fighting him upfront. Moving on from that, throwing someone is LS not AP. You can argue that he can use Force Push to knock him back which is fine but throwing him many kilometers away is not plausible here at all due to the LS difference as I mentioned.

Also the fact that Pochita has sufficient travel speed to rebound regardless.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah for sure he can. However the fight starts up close and I am arguing that his senses will be overwhelmed by Pochita while fighting him upfront. Moving on from that, throwing someone is LS not AP. You can argue that he can use Force Push to knock him back which is fine but throwing him many kilometers away is not plausible here at all due to the LS difference as I mentioned.

Also the fact that Pochita has sufficient travel speed to rebound regardless.

Gunshy. Dude. Vader is the guy who gets surrounded and drops a quote that then became a meme for being true. Unless Pochita has the duplication to turn into 2000+ people, he's not overwhelming Vader's precog or skill.

 

[GunshyFever]

Gunshy. Dude. Vader is the guy who gets surrounded and drops a quote that then became a meme for being true. Unless Pochita has the duplication to turn into 2000+ people, he's not overwhelming Vader's precog or skill.

If it is that good to the point where he can be surrounded by thousands/or hundreds of people and not be overwhelmed then I will drop that point. My earlier argument was that Pochita would force Vader into a kamikaze situation where he is forced to block/attack and they both take damage, similar to the image with Yoru vs Pochita I sent above. This time it would be fatal for both of them. It's not entirely implausible given that they have equal speed and that both of them can amplify their speed more than once reasonably.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Vader FRA