Better Call Solitude (Mario and Luigi Brothership 2nd CRT (3-A, 2-C, or 2-B))

[Galactidot]

Also, Mario and Luigi fight Weeping Reclusa, a giant boss, without turning giant themselves by using the power of bonds, with Giant Luigi scaling to Zeekeeper

And to follow up on Reclusa dealing with those unaffected by flowers, only 216 of 522 NPCs are Glohmed in Brothership.

 

[Galactidot]

Okay, let me say something NEW that I don't know why I didn't mention at all earlier.

---

Reclusa scales to both his dream worlds AND the worlds and people he destroys:

You may recall that Reclusa is a being that turns loneliness into energy (Glohm), giving him his form and power
Once he is done killing everybody, he manifests a new physical form in another dimension by gathering enough Glohm (concept he introduces) in the new dimension.
This is done through his egg.

Reclusa's egg is the source of his power, and is fueled by the very world's isolation.
When Reclusa hatches, he creates the Soli-tree from his egg. the egg exploding immediately turns the sky of (at least) the planet red.
This also later creates a pillar of Glohm that shoots into the sky, displaying even MORE energy.

The egg is both the SEED of the Soli-tree and EGG of Reclusa, and gained all of it's energy from the same source.
The Soli-tree is equal to Reclusa (with Reclusa's death destroying the Soli-tree, and everything it made) and made all of the dreams, and is where he siphons his power from.
(See how it's completely in sync with his expressions, and how when he starts expending more energy, it does the same.)

Everything Reclusa did in and out of dreams is Glohm-related, and it is a UES.
He pulls from the same power source, so his dream-manipulation feats are scalable to him ALONG with his real world feats.

Reclusa dream stated to be an illusory realm (not a regular dream, but a realm nonetheless)

Dreams aren't illusory realms, so Reclusa has to be making them

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Reclusa dream stated to be an illusory realm (not a regular dream, but a realm nonetheless)

Dreams aren't illusory realms, so Reclusa has to be making them

Not that it's a contention to other things, but calling them "Illusory realms" honestly kills the idea that he is actively creating universes. As "Illusory" literally just refers to them being pure illusions. Meaning, it's really just him trapping them in genjutsu.

 

[Galactidot]

Not that it's a contention to other things, but calling them "Illusory realms" honestly kills the idea that he is actively creating universes. As "Illusory" literally just refers to them being pure illusions. Meaning, it's really just him trapping them in genjutsu.

Still makes real coins and mushrooms though, and it's also called a nightmare

 

[Armorchompy]

Being able to take items from the realms could very well just be gameplay mechanics. Would be weird for them to disappear from the player's environment all of a sudden. Though to be honest I'm quite sure they're supposed to be dream worlds anyways, you'd still reasonably describe a dream devised specifically to deceive someone as "illusory".

 

[Galactidot]

Being able to take items from the realms could very well just be gameplay mechanics. Would be weird for them to disappear from the player's environment all of a sudden. Though to be honest I'm quite sure they're supposed to be dream worlds anyways, you'd still reasonably describe a dream devised specifically to deceive someone as "illusory".

Yeah

The reason I highlighted this is because what's INSIDE the realm is an illusion, but the realm exists, if that makes sense.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Being able to take items from the realms could very well just be gameplay mechanics. Would be weird for them to disappear from the player's environment all of a sudden. Though to be honest I'm quite sure they're supposed to be dream worlds anyways, you'd still reasonably describe a dream devised specifically to deceive someone as "illusory".

Why exactly do they HAVE to be gameplay mechanics?

 

[Armorchompy]

Why exactly do they HAVE to be gameplay mechanics?

If you read the post i wrote with the eyes that you were born with you will very clearly notice that I said "could", not "have". "Could" (kʊd), the past simple of "can" (kæn), implies possibility, whereas "have" excludes impossibility, and while the general meaning is similar that is in this case a crucial difference. What I was implying through the usage of my wording is that it is not necessarily the case and simply might be, as is suggested by external context, and that it isn't the strongest evidence to base an argument upon. I hope this explanation is satisfactory, SuperMarioGamers3.

 

[Galactidot]

If you read the post i wrote with the eyes that you were born with you will very clearly notice that I said "could", not "have". "Could" (kʊd), the past simple of "can" (kæn), implies possibility, whereas "have" excludes impossibility, and while the general meaning is similar that is in this case a crucial difference. What I was implying through the usage of my wording is that it is not necessarily the case and simply might be, as is suggested by external context, and that it isn't the strongest evidence to base an argument upon. I hope this explanation is satisfactory, SuperMarioGamers3.

Armor can you real quick make a list of all of your points of contention, I forgot and need something to work from, it's hard for me to keep track of these things

thanks

 

[Armorchompy]

it's literally just that i don't think your reasoning is mostly/entirely based on guesswork and headcanon

 

[Galactidot]

it's literally just that i don't think your reasoning is mostly/entirely based on guesswork and headcanon

That's not possible to respond to, WHAT parts are based on headcanon? You keep saying that, but I still don't know what you're referring to.

I'm genuinely serious, if you can't say what you're talking about, I struggle to believe you...

 

[Galactidot]

That's not possible to respond to, WHAT parts are based on headcanon? You keep saying that, but I still don't know what you're referring to.

I'm genuinely serious, if you can't say what you're talking about, I struggle to believe you...

Moreover, I have looked over my points, and cannot find what you'd possibly have any contention with. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm genuinely unsure what you think seems like headcanon...

 

[Galactidot]

Everyone can now comment on part 2 of the CRT, which I have completed.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

My conclusions from last thread I personally agree with of course; the stuff that High 3-A to Low 2-C range being a minimum interpretation. As for everything else, I think they should be handled in separate threads/projects before debating here as I have said. The Lumas + Rosalina thing deserves its own thread for scaling, and on paper, the Great Conductor thing seems vague on whether or not he is equal with Zeekeeper, though it is implied sort of that not even Zeekeeper could stop Reclusa on his own. And upscaling from Dreamy Bowser, the wiki again currently treats Mario and Luigi defeating Dreamy Bowser as an outlier, and unless as I said someone creates an organized blog post elaborating why "Power of Bonds" should be treated as a universal energy system within the Mario verse similar to what Saint Seiya having one for how "Power of Friendship" works or something of that nature.

Yeah, I agree with DDM.

 

[Galactidot]

Bump

 

[Galactidot]

Bump

 

[Ztesrxgdfjcvgkbh]

Bump

 

[Galactidot]

Addressing ALL OF THE REBUTALS to Reclusa's scaling (BOTH THREADS)

Here, I have a little list of every argument against Reclusa's 2-B, 2-C, or 3-A rating.
With these answered, there should logically be no reason against any of these ratings coming into play and getting passed.

• Reclusa doesn't scale to the Dream Worlds he creates/alters because he's generating them through the victims' minds, and not making the world's directly

(From a Japanese Wiki. These are relevant considering they're documented by locals who have seen and thoroughly understand the original script of the game.)

1.
不気味なオーラを纏った鈴蘭とコンセントを合わさせたような機械的な花を頭に被せ、拘束者の理想を基にボッチアーニ自身が創り出した一人だけの「夢」の世界をVRゴーグルのように映し出し、人々は孤独のまま、やがて誰も気付かぬうちに世界は穏やかに終焉を迎える、というもの。

A mechanical flower resembling a lily of the valley fused with an electrical outlet, shrouded in an eerie aura, was placed upon their heads. Like VR goggles, it projected a solitary “dream” world created by Bocciani himself based on the ideals of the captor. People remained alone within it, and eventually, unnoticed by anyone, the world came to a peaceful end.

2.
Reclusa claims to have "prepared" the Dream Worlds for everybody. Armorchompy's evidence against Reclusa creating the dreams is that:

"He's putting people to sleep and it's their sleep that makes the dreams, he just shapes it by messing with their heads."

Under the regionally consistent statement that Reclusa is both creating and preparing the dreams, this wouldn't be possible by the definition of preparation.

• Reclusa isn't abstract OR incorporeal

This being metaphorical would give no explanation from Shun, a scientist attempting to warn Mario and Luigi of Reclusa's powers, any bearing or reasoning for being included in the story.

Reclusa is at least incorporeal by this statement and the fact that Glohm particles fly off of him when he moves or is hit.
He is at most conceptual by this statement and the fact that his death erases all Glohm, Glohm related, and Glohm-made entities from existence.
And at the very, very least be inorganic physiology.

• Reclusa "destroying worlds" can simply mean he's killing everyone in them, rather than destroying the universe itself

This is true, but it should be noted that atoms, cells, stars, and planets are all alive and capable of dreaming. Regardless, him killing everyone and leaving the world in ruin is still scalable.

• If he's killing everyone, he uses hax rather than AP, so he doesn't scale to any potential god-tiers of worlds he attacked

Reclusa has replicated success as long as time, and there are some living entities which quite clearly are too large or otherwise could not be affected by Dream Flowers.

Like planets.

• Weeping Core Reclusa disarming the Bros while Dreamy Bowser couldn't is a matter of whether the attacker was trying to disarm, rather than force

Weeping Core and Weeping Reclusa consistently do this with their melee attacks. This isn't a matter of intent. However, this one is up to your judgement, and isn't as clear cut as the others, as it could partially rely on writers doing their own things.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Y'know, at the very least, we could probably give Reclusa the same treatment we gave to Antasma by placing only him at Tier 2 without scaling the Mario Bros to him.

 

[Osemere]

1.
不気味なオーラを纏った鈴蘭とコンセントを合わさせたような機械的な花を頭に被せ、拘束者の理想を基にボッチアーニ自身が創り出した一人だけの「夢」の世界をVRゴーグルのように映し出し、人々は孤独のまま、やがて誰も気付かぬうちに世界は穏やかに終焉を迎える、というもの。

A mechanical flower resembling a lily of the valley fused with an electrical outlet, shrouded in an eerie aura, was placed upon their heads. Like VR goggles, it projected a solitary “dream” world created by Bocciani himself based on the ideals of the captor. People remained alone within it, and eventually, unnoticed by anyone, the world came to a peaceful end.

Could this be considered Info type 2? It’s a Matrix-type situation.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Addressing ALL OF THE REBUTALS to Reclusa's scaling (BOTH THREADS)

Here, I have a little list of every argument against Reclusa's 2-B, 2-C, or 3-A rating.
With these answered, there should logically be no reason against any of these ratings coming into play and getting passed.

(From a Japanese Wiki. These are relevant considering they're documented by locals who have seen and thoroughly understand the original script of the game.)

1.
不気味なオーラを纏った鈴蘭とコンセントを合わさせたような機械的な花を頭に被せ、拘束者の理想を基にボッチアーニ自身が創り出した一人だけの「夢」の世界をVRゴーグルのように映し出し、人々は孤独のまま、やがて誰も気付かぬうちに世界は穏やかに終焉を迎える、というもの。

A mechanical flower resembling a lily of the valley fused with an electrical outlet, shrouded in an eerie aura, was placed upon their heads. Like VR goggles, it projected a solitary “dream” world created by Bocciani himself based on the ideals of the captor. People remained alone within it, and eventually, unnoticed by anyone, the world came to a peaceful end.

While Japanese wiki is slightly better than an American one, we still don't accept things that originate as fan made wikis as evidence. Unless we are translating something from that one Japanese guidebook from Nintendo that you brought up.

Though I more or less agree with many of the other points.

 

[Galactidot]

While Japanese wiki is slightly better than an American one, we still don't accept things that originate as fan made wikis as evidence. Unless we are translating something from that one Japanese guidebook from Nintendo that you brought up.

Though I more or less agree with many of the other points.

I'm aware it doesn't count as evidence on its own, I put this as it's a story summary of the original script, which would not only take precedence over any of our interpretations, but also is directly paraphrasing the Japanese story.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's better to translate direct quotations rather than paraphrases.

 

[Galactidot]

It's better to translate direct quotations rather than paraphrases.

Will definitely do so when I get my hands on them

 

[Galactidot]

This is true, but it should be noted that atoms, cells, stars, and planets are all alive and capable of dreaming. Regardless, him killing everyone and leaving the world in ruin is still scalable.

Reclusa has replicated success as long as time, and there are some living entities which quite clearly are too large or otherwise could not be affected by Dream Flowers.

Like planets.

Never mind this, he outright said it in the Japanese version LMAO

 

[Galactidot]

I thought we agreed to save any "Glohm being a UES" arguments for later. Because it's entirely dependent on "Power of Bond" being one, which while there definitely was given some substance/indication, I'd prefer if we created an elaborate blog post explaining it and showcasing examples throughout the series instead of exclusively using Brothership statements.
h
The only argument worth discussing for now is the context of "Reclusa consuming the world/worlds." What he is doing is bare minimum consuming all life on Concordia, which at first seems more like a planetary range feat rather than AP. But the context that he has consumed "Multiple worlds" in the past implies other details. At minimum, he traveled to multiple planets to consume all life until nothing was left from those statements alone. But we do know throughout that he doesn't just travel through outer space to seek out life he consumes, but rather other parallel dimensions/universes. Implying that he already wiped those individual universes/dimensions clean of life. And the fact that the Great Conductor basically searched not just his own universe/dimension but other universes/dimensions to call the Mario Bros to his own as the "Only ones who can stop him" all but confirms his over time capabilities exceeds the boundaries of a single universe. And it's doubled down over Reclusa basically stating the Mushroom Kingdom would be next on his "menu" after consuming Concordia and most likely the rest of the dimension/universe Concordia is located in. It's also already been accepted universe times individual universes in Mario lore are contain infinite bodies of space, and the rereleases of Mario Galaxy 1+2 not only repeats the "Infinite sized universe(s) thing, but also double confirms population is also infinite, not just space. All translations whether English, Japanese, Spanish, Italian, ect all basically mention infinite number of planets/stars (Either way are just Lumas, and it also confirms Lumas are still alive/sentient even when they turn into planets or stars). Which effectively means wiping a dimension clean of life would have to be High 3-A minimum.

This backed up with this statement where Reclusa mentions his capability to literally kill everybody manually, without any hax, is enough on it's own to warrant at least a High 3-A upgrade.

Along with this, I have now answered every single one of the opposition's arguments with a concrete answer. Now would be a good time for any staff members involved with the thread to look. If I haven't in your opinion, I invite you to prove me wrong. Until that happens, I'll assume anyone not involving with the thread has nothing to rebut --- after all, I responded to everything you asked with both this and the previous thread.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump

 

[FinePoint]

I'll tackle the abilities first.

Energy Manipulation, Mind Manipulation and Corruption (Type 2) (1 Layer)

Sure, I think. Not entirely sure what makes it a layer, though.

Petrification: Like his inspiration, Medusa, Reclusa can turn others into stone.

Yerp.

Creation: Of dream worlds and monsters, some being boss-level in terms of strength.

Yerp.

Reality Warping: Reclusa should be able to use all the same techniques as Zokket and Glohm Bowser, who can warp reality in various ways, including Spatial Manipulation, Air Manipulation, and creating pipes from nothing. He is shown to be able to manipulate dark, fire, ice, and plants as is.

Little iffy on this. Why 'should he be able to' exactly?

Invulnerability, Information Analysis and Reactive Evolution: Reclusa has the ability to read attacks when he's in Weeping Core form. Upon the first hit, he will begin to analyze. On the second, he will be done analyzing, and will become effectively immune to the attack. He never forgets attacks he's analyzed, even after leaving Weeping Core form.

Effectively, or actually immune to attacks? For Invulnerability there's an important difference. Also the scan does not want to load for me at all.

Incorporeality: At most, Reclusa is an embodiment of the concept of Isolation. At least, he is made of energy.

Sure.

Existence Erasure (in the dream world): He claims to be able to do this, and does do it to the AI civilians of the dream.

Sure.

Cloning: He can create physical or non-physical copies of himself with varying degrees of strength at will. This one has as much HP as a boss would (you can tell it's a clone because the real Reclusa appears 15 seconds later), and all of them can attack. It's implied that there's one of these in each Reclusa dream world.

Sure.

Now as for the scaling, could someone summarize the arguments that have happened here thus far?

 

[Armorchompy]

I'll wait for Galactidot's post to explain my disagreements in depth but in summary they fail to justify most of their claims. It's not the argument that's faulty but the evidence it's based on is overly vague- generic statements of "destruction" which in truth refer to Reclusa's plans of killing everyone within the dreams and have been unfairly argued to later imply an unreferenced plan of universal obliteration that simply doesn't exist within the story, based on ambiguous wording, unjustified assumptions and disconnected bits of lore from other games.

In addition, Galactidot has attempted to unearth arguments about Reclusa's dream creation, which I have in a previous thread I think conclusively argued to not be in any way an ability that can scale to his AP. I refuse to entertain those in particular given that said thread went on for months already.

 

[FinePoint]

I'll wait for Galactidot's post to explain my disagreements in depth but in summary they fail to justify most of their claims. It's not the argument that's faulty but the evidence it's based on is overly vague- generic statements of "destruction" which in truth refer to Reclusa's plans of killing everyone within the dreams and have been unfairly argued to later imply an unreferenced plan of universal obliteration that simply doesn't exist within the story, based on ambiguous wording, unjustified assumptions and disconnected bits of lore from other games.

In addition, Galactidot has attempted to unearth arguments about Reclusa's dream creation, which I have in a previous thread I think conclusively argued to not be in any way an ability that can scale to his AP. I refuse to entertain those in particular given that said thread went on for months already.

I do believe I was present for the last thread about this, actually.

At the time I believe I accepted a "Possibly" given the vagueness, though I didn't actually play the game myself, so if contextually supporters agree that the idea of universal destruction was not even implied then of course I'll take a stronger stance.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that I do NOT support Invulnerability.

 

[FinePoint]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that I do NOT support Invulnerability.

If you could elaborate I'd appreciate it.

I'm suspect of the phrasing "effectively immune" to damage, and the link won't load for me.

 

[Galactidot]

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that I do NOT support Invulnerability.

Oh yeah, he doesn't get full immunity to damage, it's just mitigated to single to small double digit numbers, hence effectively.

If there's a better term, then use that instead, please

 

[AyOgUyS]

Oh yeah, he doesn't get full immunity to damage, it's just mitigated to single to small double digit numbers, hence effectively.

If there's a better term, then use that instead, please

damage reduction or simply extra durability seems more reasonable to me

 

[FinePoint]

Oh yeah, he doesn't get full immunity to damage, it's just mitigated to single to small double digit numbers, hence effectively.

If there's a better term, then use that instead, please

Yeah, that's just Damage Reduction.

Invulnerability implies complete immunity with certain exceptions (like the NLF by default).

 

[Galactidot]

.Now as for the scaling, could someone summarize the arguments that have happened here thus far?

I'll wait for Galactidot's post to explain my disagreements in depth but in summary they fail to justify most of their claims..

Well, here is a good starting point. I asked for a list of disagreements, and this is what I was able to find. But this alone shows that claiming I "don't justify my claims" isn't exactly true.
Armor just doesn't agree with them, and that's okay. But if so, I'd like an explanation as to why before we throw such accusations.

Better Call Solitude (Mario and Luigi Brothership 2nd CRT (3-A, 2-C, or 2-B))

Also, Mario and Luigi fight Weeping Reclusa, a giant boss, without turning giant themselves by using the power of bonds, with Giant Luigi scaling to Zeekeeper And to follow up on Reclusa dealing with those unaffected by flowers, only 216 of 522 NPCs are Glohmed in Brothership.

vsbattles.com

Now, as for the scaling:

High 3-A for killing everybody in a dimension, as Concordia is a universe, and Reclusa travels between dimensions every time he kills everyone.
Whether or not he destroys the universe itself is irrelevant, as DDM has stated above.
In a new scan, Reclusa also points out his capability of literally solo-ing everyone in combat, which must be AP. He has done this before.

2-C to 2-B for dream world creation and sustaining. He directly creates and prepares the dream worlds BEFORE they even latch onto someone, denying the possibility of him simply manipulating his victims brains to make them. Said Dreams contain starry skies.

2-B for scaling to Zeekeeper and Dreamy Bowser.

 

[Galactidot]

Yeah, that's just Damage Reduction.

Invulnerability implies complete immunity with certain exceptions (like the NLF by default).

He DOES debatably have this as the Soli-tree in a similar vein to Super Dimentio. Reclusa claims to be invincible upon entering the form in the Japanese version, and is only capable of being injured when the Bros are amped by Bonds, similar to how Pure Hearts broke Super Dimentio's invincibility.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's more like Reactive Evolution and Adaptation; and not Invulnerability yeah.

 

[FinePoint]

He DOES debatably have this as the Soli-tree in a similar vein to Super Dimentio. Reclusa claims to be invincible upon entering the form in the Japanese version, and is only capable of being injured when the Bros are amped by Bonds, similar to how Pure Hearts broke Super Dimentio's invincibility.

Invulnerability is kind of a niche and confusing ability on this wiki, especially since fiction loves to use it and its synonyms (like invincible) in a completely different way all the time.

I've lobbied to change the name but to no avail.

Invulnerability is the power to be immune to conventional harm.

This is distinct from simply particularly high durability, which may make a character seem invulnerable to weaker opponents. Only characters whose invulnerability is clearly more than simply being exceptionally durable for the verse's setting qualify.

Basically, there needs to be some kind of lore explanation confirming they're literally immune to conventional damage within their setting, or otherwise a ton of evidence in that direction.

If they're able to bypass it by simply becoming stronger, it's an anti-feat within the setting, implying they weren't actually Invulnerable by our definition, they just had durability which was too high.

An example that would qualify: Character is said to be utterly immune to all conventional weapons, but the one exception is holy weapons, which bypass this and can harm them normally. This is reinforced multiple times, including weapons far above the hero's normal firepower. In order to defeat the villain, the heroes MUST make their attacks holy somehow or else they'll fail no matter what. City-Sized Explosion = nothing. Holy Dagger = death.

The only time a normal statistic increase piercing it would be considered not an anti-feat was if the increase was so drastic that the No-Limits-Fallacy must logically be applied. Obviously that exact difference would be subjective, but from all past threads about it, it seems our standard is pretty high.

 

[Galactidot]

Now as for the scaling, could someone summarize the arguments that have happened here thus far?

Well, here is a good starting point. I asked for a list of disagreements, and this is what I was able to find. But this alone shows that claiming I "don't justify my claims" isn't exactly true.
Armor just doesn't agree with them, and that's okay. But if so, I'd like an explanation as to why before we throw such accusations.

Better Call Solitude (Mario and Luigi Brothership 2nd CRT (3-A, 2-C, or 2-B))

Also, Mario and Luigi fight Weeping Reclusa, a giant boss, without turning giant themselves by using the power of bonds, with Giant Luigi scaling to Zeekeeper And to follow up on Reclusa dealing with those unaffected by flowers, only 216 of 522 NPCs are Glohmed in Brothership.

vsbattles.com

Now, as for the scaling:

High 3-A for killing everybody in a dimension, as Concordia is a universe, and Reclusa travels between dimensions every time he kills everyone.
Whether or not he destroys the universe itself is irrelevant, as DDM has stated above.
In a new scan, Reclusa also points out his capability of literally solo-ing everyone in combat, which must be AP. He has done this before.

2-C to 2-B for dream world creation and sustaining. He directly creates and prepares the dream worlds BEFORE they even latch onto someone, denying the possibility of him simply manipulating his victims brains to make them. Said Dreams contain starry skies.

2-B for scaling to Zeekeeper and Dreamy Bowser.

Glohm also ties all of his abilities together, and should qualify for a UES.