Mbpoops
He/Him- 8,449
- 7,660
greetings all! as you know hoyoverse's scaling is currently a huge mess of low 1-C slop right now and i think i have found the answer to most of that. it stems from the Emanators chainscaling to eachother and i here i will provide reasoning why the emanators should not scale to eachother (at least without given feats/statements)
it is commonly known that to defeat an emanator you need the same level of strength as one and this i one of the main justifications for emanators being comparable in strength. however this is flawed for multiple reasons
reason one: having the same level of power as an emanator isnt exclusive to emanators as we have seen pathstriders defeating or stalemating emanators before (trailblazer vs the beetle, yanqing, yunli, and march vs feixiao, TB and hysilins vs lygus, express + robin vs Sunday etc
the fact pathstriders can defeat emanators proves that the power (strength) is not limited to emanators. someone might argue that these emanators held back or "didnt draw energy" but this is also flawed because for one, feixiao is corrupted by the bloodmoon and is completely fully bloodlusted here, 2, lygus has no reason to hold bac against tb and hysilins as his plan is to eradicate the universe and they are in his way, 3 the beetle has no reason at all to hold back against the trailblazer, 4 sunday has no reason to hold back here as hes ascending to aeonhood.
reason 2: the power of emanators is directly stated in the databank to vary depending on the power granted by their aeon. this should honestly be proof enough that emanators dont scale off eachother if the level of their power is determined by their aeon and not by how much power they can draw.
now i have had some hoyo fans argue with me that incomplete irontomb was compared to all the lord ravengers which means they are all comparable so heres why this is just a terrible extrapolation.
irontomb is an emanator of destruction therefore his power would be compared to the level of a lord ravenger because they are the strongest destruction followers (they are all emanators of destruction) this does not mean all lord ravengers are the same power, for one we see phantylia being damaged by dan heng who is far inferior to any high level destruction emanator (incomplete irontomb and zephyro) if we are to say that all these emanators are comparable in strength then dhil should have no problem sweeping the entire story and zephyro wouldnt be an issue. moreover zephyro extremely low diffs phainon, who is also an emanator of destruction, to the point where he didnt even need to use his white hole (which is something he had to use against welt).
there was also some arguments from the hoyo supporters that evernight, lygus, and incomplete irontomb were comparable which itself is hilariously contradicted by the story. As established earlier, trailblazer and hysilins defeated lygus this would make lygus comparable to hysilins and trailblazer. evernight is able to completely overpower and seal the trailblazer which should put her above lygus (it is commonly considered evernight is the strongest trailblazer thought i might add this). incomplete irontomb not only required evernight's power but a whole other emanator as well aka cyrene and her special attack(s) aswell as the other chrysos heirs yet irontomb was still mid diffing them this should easily put irontomb above evernight and lygus im not sure why is is even a debate.
im honestly not sure what else needs to be said here all the evidence and even the current 4.0 story leads to emanators varying and power and therefore arent scaleable to eachother. let it be known that march, who is currently considered an emanator of rememberance, is getting extreme diffed by highschoolers (yes literally random highschoolers) if we were to say she chainscales to other emanators because of this those highschooler would be able to defeat most of the cast.
also i should note, the other justification that says "can draw power from their respective aeon" should either be changed or removed as aeons only grant a specific level of power to their emanators so why should we assume that emanators have free will to draw power from their aeons? the closest thing ive seen to an explanation of what emanator powers actually are is this but this doesnt say emanators can draw power from their aeons just that aeons grant these specific individuals special powers higher than that of normal pathstriders.
Edit 2: one more thing i should add (if not addressed in the op i forgor). these justifications should be either removed or reworded to something else if this thread were to be accepted. for one, them being comparable to other emanators was based on the cross scaling which is being removed per this thread. secondly, i havent seen a scan that says emanators can draw powers from their respective aeon only that that have better path potency than mere pathstriders they can keep the higher rating from drawing path energy i guess. all the justifications from other paths should be removed accordingly depending on the character
heres what i propose to change the rating of these characters to:
aeons, and anyone not mentioned (unless i forgot) should keep their scaling.
this is A LOT of changes and thats because a lot of the characters, not just emanators, are affected by this chainscale and should also be changed because of this. thats basically it unless i forgot something (its been a long day) thank you!
EDIT: because of things brought to light later in the thread i have edited some of the ratings above. anyone pre-sunday should be 3-C+ and not 3-B for not scaling to asdana. this will also change their speed to 2 quintillion times FTL (MFTL+ but slower)
Agree: @Zanesucksatlife @SuperNova55555 @PlungingThroughTime @Furina003 @KirbyFan03 @korea1234 @Insert_creative_name_here_12 @Robo432343 @Hecky2222 @Rakih_Elyan @AthelChan @Yanina92 @ExcelsisBerny @Sahlwrld
Staff agree: Reiner04 Planck69 emirp sumitpo DarkDragonMedeus
Neutral:
Disagree: @CastoriceTheFifth @Voidnether @Doggo @Nighting4l33yes
Staff disagree:
it is commonly known that to defeat an emanator you need the same level of strength as one and this i one of the main justifications for emanators being comparable in strength. however this is flawed for multiple reasons
reason one: having the same level of power as an emanator isnt exclusive to emanators as we have seen pathstriders defeating or stalemating emanators before (trailblazer vs the beetle, yanqing, yunli, and march vs feixiao, TB and hysilins vs lygus, express + robin vs Sunday etc
the fact pathstriders can defeat emanators proves that the power (strength) is not limited to emanators. someone might argue that these emanators held back or "didnt draw energy" but this is also flawed because for one, feixiao is corrupted by the bloodmoon and is completely fully bloodlusted here, 2, lygus has no reason to hold bac against tb and hysilins as his plan is to eradicate the universe and they are in his way, 3 the beetle has no reason at all to hold back against the trailblazer, 4 sunday has no reason to hold back here as hes ascending to aeonhood.reason 2: the power of emanators is directly stated in the databank to vary depending on the power granted by their aeon. this should honestly be proof enough that emanators dont scale off eachother if the level of their power is determined by their aeon and not by how much power they can draw.
now i have had some hoyo fans argue with me that incomplete irontomb was compared to all the lord ravengers which means they are all comparable so heres why this is just a terrible extrapolation.
irontomb is an emanator of destruction therefore his power would be compared to the level of a lord ravenger because they are the strongest destruction followers (they are all emanators of destruction) this does not mean all lord ravengers are the same power, for one we see phantylia being damaged by dan heng who is far inferior to any high level destruction emanator (incomplete irontomb and zephyro) if we are to say that all these emanators are comparable in strength then dhil should have no problem sweeping the entire story and zephyro wouldnt be an issue. moreover zephyro extremely low diffs phainon, who is also an emanator of destruction, to the point where he didnt even need to use his white hole (which is something he had to use against welt).
there was also some arguments from the hoyo supporters that evernight, lygus, and incomplete irontomb were comparable which itself is hilariously contradicted by the story. As established earlier, trailblazer and hysilins defeated lygus this would make lygus comparable to hysilins and trailblazer. evernight is able to completely overpower and seal the trailblazer which should put her above lygus (it is commonly considered evernight is the strongest trailblazer thought i might add this). incomplete irontomb not only required evernight's power but a whole other emanator as well aka cyrene and her special attack(s) aswell as the other chrysos heirs yet irontomb was still mid diffing them this should easily put irontomb above evernight and lygus im not sure why is is even a debate.
im honestly not sure what else needs to be said here all the evidence and even the current 4.0 story leads to emanators varying and power and therefore arent scaleable to eachother. let it be known that march, who is currently considered an emanator of rememberance, is getting extreme diffed by highschoolers (yes literally random highschoolers) if we were to say she chainscales to other emanators because of this those highschooler would be able to defeat most of the cast.
also i should note, the other justification that says "can draw power from their respective aeon" should either be changed or removed as aeons only grant a specific level of power to their emanators so why should we assume that emanators have free will to draw power from their aeons? the closest thing ive seen to an explanation of what emanator powers actually are is this but this doesnt say emanators can draw power from their aeons just that aeons grant these specific individuals special powers higher than that of normal pathstriders.
Edit 2: one more thing i should add (if not addressed in the op i forgor). these justifications should be either removed or reworded to something else if this thread were to be accepted. for one, them being comparable to other emanators was based on the cross scaling which is being removed per this thread. secondly, i havent seen a scan that says emanators can draw powers from their respective aeon only that that have better path potency than mere pathstriders they can keep the higher rating from drawing path energy i guess. all the justifications from other paths should be removed accordingly depending on the character
heres what i propose to change the rating of these characters to:
Phantylia should be moved down to "3-C+" from he welt statemnt of them destroying galaxies due to the verse having ues this is stat applicable
anyone scaling from this (jingyuan, dhil, (by extension blade and yanqing (first key)) will also be moved to this tier.
anyone scaling from this (jingyuan, dhil, (by extension blade and yanqing (first key)) will also be moved to this tier.
Jingyuan will get a new key for late penacony/war dance arc that will he 3-B since he is comparable to fei xiao and dhil since together dhil and jingyuan were able to defeat sunday in the false dream.
Aventurine of stratagems is a bit tricky, but i believe he should be moved down to 3-C+ due to not having enough feats to qualify for low 1-C. moreover a cornerstone is only 1/10th of the emanator's power and we dont know how strong diamond is yet so its hard to scale him higher than this especially if the emanator chainscale is nuked. anyone who scales off of the fight (astral express EXCEPT DAN HENG and welt) should be moved to 3-C+ this includes the trailblazer up to this key, march 7th up to this key, and Himeko. aventurine with his final gamble should keep his low 1-C rating or at least a "possibly low 1-C" or "far higher with final gamble" (you guys decide) as he forced welt to pull out zeroth and acheron to use her sword and transform. he undoubtably keeps his low 1-C rating with qlipoth hammer though.
Acheron should get a new key for her base (purple hair) which would sit at a 3-C+ possibly higher rating for being able to fight off the stellaron hunter clones and stalemating SAM while her white hair form keeps its low 1-C rating for being comparable to the star of eden's zeroth power and zephyro
Sunday... dear god this is difficult. starting off, Sunday's False god key will remain the same as he is the aeon of order and no one can harm him except aeons it required jade to use qlipoth's hammer and attack ENA on a conceptual level to strip him of him aeonhood. sunday's dominicus key should be moved down to "3-B" for affecting all of asdana which per the old calc would scale to 3-B, with an "eventually Low 1-C rating" due to ascending to the aeon of conquest. pompom, Trailblazer, March 7th, Daniel heng, welt (mentioned below), and Himeko will be changed accordingly. should also be moved down to 3-B because of this.
starting with kafka, she should be moved down to 3-C+ or "at least 3-C+" for low diffing Blade off screen blade is relevant to yanqing and Dhil who i previously mentioned were 3-C+ so that should honestly take care of those 2. Silverwolf (althought this page seems really extraolated) should be moved down to 3-C+ due to the clones fighting acheron and her being comparable to blade. seems simple enough to me. S.A.M (firefly) should be moved to 3-C+ for fighting acheron, black swan, and trailblazer for a while and keep her "higher" or "possibly 3-B" rating
Jingliu's first key should move down to 3-C+ for reasons listed above and on the page. her second key should be "likely low 1-C" or honestly just "low 1-C" for being hinted at fighting Yaoshi of the abundance in the cutscene
speed run time
Dormancy should be moved to 3-C+ for reasons on the page and above
Saber and Aaaaaacha should be moved down to 3-B for only being relevant to penacony post penacony arc TB
Argenti's first key should be moved to 4-A with a new justification of one tapping the giant sting who's mouth contained a starry sky (calc'd to at leasr multi solar). the reason for this change is because the main justification for a new rating of that arc's trailblazer happens after they fight argenti so argenti wouldnt scale to this. argenti also lost to Luka in the war dance and Luka also defeated topaz who also has a 4-A rating so i think this is fine. his second key should be moved to 3-C+ for being comparable to firefly and TB
Black swan should be moved to 3-C+ for being comparable to firefly and TB
Boothill and Rappa should be moved to 3-B for being comparable to eachother and boothill being comparable to post penacony TB, Saber, lancer and archer
Sparkle should move down to 3-C+ for scaling to her illusions
Hoolay should go down to 3-B for scaling similar to yanqing yunli and March (war dance) (i should also mention that war dance yanqing, yunli, and fei xiao should be 3-B for being compareable to post penacony march 7th. Jing yuan can get a possibly or likely 3-B rating if we assume hes compareable to fei xiao)
Skaracabaz is a bit of a weird case as the reanimation that was created my ruan mei doesnt hold a candle to the real Skaracabaz. if i were to personally rank where the REAL Skaracabaz stands it would be comparable to post penacony TB, saber, archer and lancer as it pushed saber to unleash her excalibur. Skaracabaz can keep his "higher" rating though
Nikador, both keys should be moved to 3-B for being comparable to early ampho tb, mydei, and base phainon and mem
Pollux, same as nikador 3-B
aquila same as pollux and nikador, 3-B
Theoros Lygus should be down to 3-B since for being comparable to trailblazer and base hysilins.
march's Evernight key and dan heng's permancer terrae keys should also be moved down to 3-B cyrene amps stay low 1-C
Herta's real body key should go to 3-B for being comparable to lygus, as a battle between them would result in mutual destruction.
all chrysos heirs... oh boy this might be long
to make my life easier all cyrene amps should keep their low 1-C rating for contending with complete irontomb
starting with kevinon his first key should be moved down to 3-B not must justification for low 1-C especially with reasons given above. his second key first rating should be 3-B as there is not enough for low 1-C, with a "higher" or "possibly low 1-C" rating (either is fine with me tbh) as khaslana for contending with zephyro for a bit. the final rating should be a definitive low 1-C for damaging nanook.
Aglaea, Tribble, Castoricethefifth, Mydei, Cifer, anananaxa, pink barbara, water mommy, and lesser furina, should all be moved down to 3-B for scaling to eachother and base phainon. characters with demigod keys (castoricethefifth and mydei) can either have a "higher" or 3-B rating for those keys (doesnt matter to me)
now for cyrene
Mem key, 3-B for being comparable to TB, mydei and base phainon
Cyrene key, same as mem key
Demiurge key,keep low 1-C for being comparable to incomplete irontomb who is superior to Phainon's entire khaslana key. should be moved to 3-B for being comparable to incomplete irontomb.
Dormancy should be moved to 3-C+ for reasons on the page and above
Saber and Aaaaaacha should be moved down to 3-B for only being relevant to penacony post penacony arc TB
Argenti's first key should be moved to 4-A with a new justification of one tapping the giant sting who's mouth contained a starry sky (calc'd to at leasr multi solar). the reason for this change is because the main justification for a new rating of that arc's trailblazer happens after they fight argenti so argenti wouldnt scale to this. argenti also lost to Luka in the war dance and Luka also defeated topaz who also has a 4-A rating so i think this is fine. his second key should be moved to 3-C+ for being comparable to firefly and TB
Black swan should be moved to 3-C+ for being comparable to firefly and TB
Boothill and Rappa should be moved to 3-B for being comparable to eachother and boothill being comparable to post penacony TB, Saber, lancer and archer
Sparkle should move down to 3-C+ for scaling to her illusions
Hoolay should go down to 3-B for scaling similar to yanqing yunli and March (war dance) (i should also mention that war dance yanqing, yunli, and fei xiao should be 3-B for being compareable to post penacony march 7th. Jing yuan can get a possibly or likely 3-B rating if we assume hes compareable to fei xiao)
Skaracabaz is a bit of a weird case as the reanimation that was created my ruan mei doesnt hold a candle to the real Skaracabaz. if i were to personally rank where the REAL Skaracabaz stands it would be comparable to post penacony TB, saber, archer and lancer as it pushed saber to unleash her excalibur. Skaracabaz can keep his "higher" rating though
Nikador, both keys should be moved to 3-B for being comparable to early ampho tb, mydei, and base phainon and mem
Pollux, same as nikador 3-B
aquila same as pollux and nikador, 3-B
Theoros Lygus should be down to 3-B since for being comparable to trailblazer and base hysilins.
march's Evernight key and dan heng's permancer terrae keys should also be moved down to 3-B cyrene amps stay low 1-C
Herta's real body key should go to 3-B for being comparable to lygus, as a battle between them would result in mutual destruction.
all chrysos heirs... oh boy this might be long
to make my life easier all cyrene amps should keep their low 1-C rating for contending with complete irontomb
starting with kevinon his first key should be moved down to 3-B not must justification for low 1-C especially with reasons given above. his second key first rating should be 3-B as there is not enough for low 1-C, with a "higher" or "possibly low 1-C" rating (either is fine with me tbh) as khaslana for contending with zephyro for a bit. the final rating should be a definitive low 1-C for damaging nanook.
Aglaea, Tribble, Castoricethefifth, Mydei, Cifer, anananaxa, pink barbara, water mommy, and lesser furina, should all be moved down to 3-B for scaling to eachother and base phainon. characters with demigod keys (castoricethefifth and mydei) can either have a "higher" or 3-B rating for those keys (doesnt matter to me)
now for cyrene
Mem key, 3-B for being comparable to TB, mydei and base phainon
Cyrene key, same as mem key
Demiurge key,
honestly this man required his own thread to target the awful chainscaling he brings. but for now i propose his base pathstrider and hi3 key to be moved to 3-B to remain consistant with the verse while keeping a low 1-C rating with star of eden.
Incomplete Irontomb should be moved to 3-B for being comparable to the chrysos heirs, march, dan heng, and TB late ampho
complete irontomb stays the same
complete irontomb stays the same
Off screen man cutscene merchant. At least 3-B likely higher rating with a low 1-C rating with white hole (comparable to star of eden’s zeroth power)
aeons, and anyone not mentioned (unless i forgot) should keep their scaling.
this is A LOT of changes and thats because a lot of the characters, not just emanators, are affected by this chainscale and should also be changed because of this. thats basically it unless i forgot something (its been a long day) thank you!
EDIT: because of things brought to light later in the thread i have edited some of the ratings above. anyone pre-sunday should be 3-C+ and not 3-B for not scaling to asdana. this will also change their speed to 2 quintillion times FTL (MFTL+ but slower)
Agree: @Zanesucksatlife @SuperNova55555 @PlungingThroughTime @Furina003 @KirbyFan03 @korea1234 @Insert_creative_name_here_12 @Robo432343 @Hecky2222 @Rakih_Elyan @AthelChan @Yanina92 @ExcelsisBerny @Sahlwrld
Staff agree: Reiner04 Planck69 emirp sumitpo DarkDragonMedeus
Neutral:
Disagree: @CastoriceTheFifth @Voidnether @Doggo @Nighting4l33yes
Staff disagree:
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