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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers



Well User you were right again, thankfully that's a releif this time but still. Do you humbly accept your position as the threads Death Battle forecaster because you just can't seem to miss.
 
Super Forms still not immeasurable and Cell was faster and tied abilitites, but PERFECT LIFE FORM DATA COPIED too OP.
 
Snek said:


Well User you were right again, thankfully that's a releif this time but still. Do you humbly accept your position as the threads Death Battle forecaster because you just can't seem to miss.
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It's very obvious that it was going to be a pity win, but I didn't expect them to say Metal is slower than Cell. Even in pity wins they piss me off.
 
Issen_Mk_III said:
Speed advantage...

Time limit...
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I think they had to give Cell something, considering they used Speed Sim and that game absolutely destroys the "Ring economy" so to speak (mfw Metal is holding Quadrillions of Rings).
Issen_Mk_III said:
Refusal to accept that there's a difference between infinite & immeasurable...
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To be fair, I don't think that is ever gonna properly happen.
Issen_Mk_III said:
Cringe...
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They gave us Multiversal Time Eater and Solaris, which has many detractors for each. Doubly so with people claiming the rewrites hurt his scaling. I would say we came out alright, even if being Anime Cell Saga Base Goku level in speed is... bleh.
 
Theuser789 said:
It's very obvious that it was going to be a pity win, but I didn't expect them to say Metal is slower than Cell. Even in pity wins they piss me off.
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Yeah the episode was alright. Probably my favorite Sonic episode now but that's not the highest bar to clear when the rest of them range from boring (Shadow vs Ryuko) to disrespectful.
I have to say it mildly annoys me that they somehow said more about the Time Eater here than they did in Bowser vs Eggman of all episodes and even gave it a higher speed feat to boot but better late than never I suppose.

To this day is kind of baffles me that they even used Solaris as that episodes speed feat while admitting that the Time Eater and Paradox Prism had faster feats only in the black boxes for some reason (even though the Prism and TE where part of Eggman's arsenal while Solaris wasn't) before then proceeding to consider the Chaos Emeralds only maybe multiversal in the conclusion. Like what? If they weren't going to compare Solaris to Super Dimentio and by extension the Chaos Emeralds to the Pure Hearts for their almost 1-1 feats then I don't even understand the point of them bringing Solaris up in BowsEgg at all but I digress.
It wouldn't have even given Eggman the speed advantage in the episode over Mario being scaled to 489 Quadrillion c so them not using the Time Eater as that episodes speed feat offends me on principle lol just like various other "creative choices" in that episodes scaling and animation that are just baffling.
 
Based off of their bad interpretation/editing alone, you could've made an argument for Cell just blitzing & one-shotting Metal. Is he Stalactite level or Black Hole level? Sheesh...

These guys are like an entire decade behind the scaling meta, Tier 2 Base & (truly) immeasurable Super isn't happening anytime soon.

I'll put the breaks on bitching & say that the fight was cool, Dragon Ball techniques amped by Chaos Energy is a scary-ass concept on paper.
 
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Issen_Mk_III said:
Tier 2 Base
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Yeah in my earlier (and thankfully poorly aged) dooming I called Cell getting the speed advantage off the otherworld feat it's just that they didn't have Cell win with it as I was worried about, but with Tier 2 base Sonic characters I expected them to at least black box it as the counter argument to universal Cell but I was wrong on that front.

In their defense though they probably just wanted the fight to look somewhat close and I could see them holding some things back for a future Sonic episode like Shadow vs Mewtwo 2 or Mario vs Sonic 3.
ShakeResounding said:
Don't mess with us Sonic fans, we will NEVER be satisfied ❗❗📣📣
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Haha well 😅 I am faintly satisfied. I mean my biggest complaint is literally that this episode highlights a super strange choice that BowsEgg made by actually talking about the Time Eater and makes that episode even more frustrating which isn't a big deal for this episode. I like BowsEgg less the more that I think about it though so that's not suprising.

In other words it's not bad at all it just didn't blow me away.
 
Snek said:
Yeah the episode was alright. Probably my favorite Sonic episode now but that's not the highest bar to clear when the rest of them range from boring (Shadow vs Ryuko) to disrespectful.
I have to say it mildly annoys me that they somehow said more about the Time Eater here than they did in Bowser vs Eggman of all episodes and even gave it a higher speed feat to boot but better late than never I suppose.

To this day is kind of baffles me that they even used Solaris as that episodes speed feat while admitting that the Time Eater and Paradox Prism had faster feats only in the black boxes for some reason (even though the Prism and TE where part of Eggman's arsenal while Solaris wasn't) before then proceeding to consider the Chaos Emeralds only maybe multiversal in the conclusion. Like what? If they weren't going to compare Solaris to Super Dimentio and by extension the Chaos Emeralds to the Pure Hearts for their almost 1-1 feats then I don't even understand the point of them bringing Solaris up in BowsEgg at all but I digress.
It wouldn't have even given Eggman the speed advantage in the episode over Mario being scaled to 489 Quadrillion c so them not using the Time Eater as that episodes speed feat offends me on principle lol just like various other "creative choices" in that episodes scaling and animation that are just baffling.
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The coreography was also... meh? Eggman HAS forms he can box himself... why not use them? also for Bowser... why use THE form he specifically CAN'T talk or think... and show him doing that?
 
ngl I was surprised they agreed with Time Eater destroying the cosmology in one go. Like I don't disagree TE got the cosmology but I was thinking a little more overtime
 
Well they didn’t give an actual value to it beyond vague multiversal, but they also didn’t say Cell was universal, so it was a gap of over trillions of times anyway. I think they’ll give a hard stance on infinite multiverse for Sonic if they ever do him vs Goku or smthn.
 
Omegabronic said:
Cell vs Metal animation was... good, i liked it... Metal Aurafarmed and Cell Aurafarmed
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I agree with that. Also here's something I noticed about the animation that I really liked. I'm treating the animation as having it's own internal scaling because obviously it's just eye candy, but it did something really cool with the power progression that actually let both characters be in the lead for decent periods of time.

At the start Cell destroys some Egg Fleet ships before then matching Metal Sonic until he tries a bit harder and gets the upper hand. So a suppressed Cell starts as roughly equal to Neo Metal Sonic.

Then Metal Sonic transforms into Metal Overlord but loses so a full power Perfect Cell is roughly equal to Metal Overlord.

From there Cell dunks on Neo Metal Sonic once he reverts back to that form, because obviously he would with the internal logic of the animation but then Metal uses his hax to get a chance to copy Cell despite being at a disadvantage.

Once Metal Sonic copies Cells bio data he can rip off Cells arm showing that they are likely at least equals again but then he goes into his super form on top of that and blatantly gets the edge over Perfect Cell.

Finally though Cell regenerates to become Super Perfect Cell and can match Super Neo Metal Sonic in a beam clash so once again Cell becomes comparable to Metal Sonic (but still somewhat weaker as Metal Sonic can still blow him away) except he blatantly loses because of a hax disadvantage.

Making the progression.
1. Perfect Cell (supressed) = Neo Metal Sonic
2. Perfect Cell (full power) = to or > Metal Overlord
3. Neo Metal Sonic (Cell bio data copied) = to or > Perfect Cell
4. Super Neo Metal Sonic (stacked on top of Cells bio data) >>> Perfect Cell
5. Super Perfect Cell = to or slightly < Super Neo Metal Sonic
6. Neo Metal Sonic still hax stomps.

I just thought this was neat. 🙂
 
Seeing everything they gave metal ability wise in the episode really makes you wonder where this stuff was for him in Bowsegg because Eggman level IQ and camouflage really could have helped with sniping key players on Bowser’s side. Heck, going of this episode, wouldn’t Metal being able to copy esoteric energies include Bowser and Kamek’s magic? I genuinely see no way Bowser could do anything against someone who by the climax of the battle would have all of his abilities on top of chaos control. I know at this point all I’m doing is beating a dead horse but you can’t deny that they made Metal out to be ******* monstrous in this episode with his busted mimicry and I genuinely see nothing from Bowser’s analysis that stacks up to this. Keep in mind, Bowsegg’s been out for only about a year and a half so the research being dated isn’t really a good look.
 
RanHover60 said:
Seeing everything they gave metal ability wise in the episode really makes you wonder where this stuff was for him in Bowsegg because Eggman level IQ and camouflage really could have helped with sniping key players on Bowser’s side. Heck, going of this episode, wouldn’t Metal being able to copy esoteric energies include Bowser and Kamek’s magic? I genuinely see no way Bowser could do anything against someone who by the climax of the battle would have all of his abilities on top of chaos control. I know at this point all I’m doing is beating a dead horse but you can’t deny that they made Metal out to be ******* monstrous in this episode with his busted mimicry and I genuinely see nothing from Bowser’s analysis that stacks up to this. Keep in mind, Bowsegg’s been out for only about a year and a half.
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Kamek nullifies abilities, so he countered Metal according to them.
 
If a hypothetical MvS3/Goku vs Sonic were to have the aesthetic/animation style of Bowser vs Eggman (MORO), but the hyper-kinetic action & choreography of Cell vs Metal Sonic (DA), it would be absolutely supreme IMO.
 
RanHover60 said:
True but that still requires the specific scenario of Kamek being aware of metal’s abilities and shutting him down before being taken out himself. In an actual battle, I see metal catching on to the threat of Kamek first before the other way round happens tbh
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Its DB's argument shrug. Hell, Metal should have better stats to KO Kamek before or frankly even after losing biodata if base Mario alone can beat Kamek. Mind you DB thinks base Mario cast >>>>>>>>>>>>> base Sonic cast
 
RanHover60 said:
Seeing everything they gave metal ability wise in the episode really makes you wonder where this stuff was for him in Bowsegg because Eggman level IQ and camouflage really could have helped with sniping key players on Bowser’s side. Heck, going of this episode, wouldn’t Metal being able to copy esoteric energies include Bowser and Kamek’s magic? I genuinely see no way Bowser could do anything against someone who by the climax of the battle would have all of his abilities on top of chaos control. I know at this point all I’m doing is beating a dead horse but you can’t deny that they made Metal out to be ******* monstrous in this episode with his busted mimicry and I genuinely see nothing from Bowser’s analysis that stacks up to this. Keep in mind, Bowsegg’s been out for only about a year and a half so the research being dated isn’t really a good look.
Click to expand...
In 2024 before I was willing to accept speed-sim stuff (I'm not even sure Super Neo Metal Sonic appeared in speed-sim at that time so correct me if I'm wrong) I was of the opinion that a Pure Hearts amplified Bowser could maybe just one shot Super Neo Metal Sonic before he can snowball into an impossible problem because I thought Metal Sonic's super form only upscaled the base cast but couldn't reliably scale to full power super forms. But now that Metal can arguably scale to full power Super Sonic I'm less sure that him single handedly sweeping that fight isn't a possibility except I'm not the most well versed on Mario so take that with a pinch of salt.
Still I don't blame Death Battle at the time for thinking that Metal Sonic wasn't all that. Especially when they have base Mario well above base Sonic stat wise so maybe they believed Super Neo Metal Sonic just didn't have the stats to compete? Eh I'm not sure.

What I do blame them for is putting stock in Dreamy Bowser’s never displayed existence erasure even though Metal Sonic can resist EE on a universal scale in his base form so even where I forgive Death Battle there is a somewhere else where I don't.
 
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Sonic might win MvS3, a big thing for Bowser was being able to distribute and stack grand and power stars among his army, Mario can’t do that to the same effect
 
JJSliderman said:
Sonic might win MvS3, a big thing for Bowser was being able to distribute and stack grand and power stars among his army, Mario can’t do that to the same effect
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Sonic doesn’t have an army like Eggman for that to be a legitimate counter against anything he can do though, which is probably a bigger barrier to the matchup than anything else animation-wise. Mario vs Sonic 3 has less potential than Bowser vs Eggman because of this, as their options can’t really be stacked without even more headcanon leniency than usual (Eggman having the Phantom Ruby and the Chaos Emeralds is obviously fine, Sonic using Excalibur, Hyper Sonic, the Time Stones etc all at once is much more fanfic-y. Same with Mario with all RPG stuff and his more toony appearances)

Although the basic idea of “Mario can just outlast super forms and kill Sonic in base” from MvS2 is probably going to be recycled again for the third one if it ever happens, I’m guessing
 
God MvS3 is gonna happen and its just gonna repeat MvS2. Hax and stats are equal when highballed with forms but Mario gets infinite items from Bottomless Gloves, is more experienced and is stronger and faster in base. But BakugoReze happened due to slander popularity, MvS3 will happen too.
 
Osemere said:
“Mario can just outlast super forms and kill Sonic in base”
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I've honestly never quite gotten this idea. Mario doesn't default to waiting out transformations he's never seen, he tries to attack them when they miss an attack, or he just flees outright. Mario waiting out Super is a tactic that I think is only valid if he's given prior knowledge of his opponent.
 
MysticMania said:
I've honestly never quite gotten this idea. Mario doesn't default to waiting out transformations he's never seen, he tries to attack them when they miss an attack, or he just flees outright. Mario waiting out Super is a tactic that I think is only valid if he's given prior knowledge of his opponent.
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That’s why retry clocks will help give him the win.
 
MysticMania said:
I've honestly never quite gotten this idea. Mario doesn't default to waiting out transformations he's never seen, he tries to attack them when they miss an attack, or he just flees outright. Mario waiting out Super is a tactic that I think is only valid if he's given prior knowledge of his opponent.
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It’s less that he tries to wait out the time limit than he just gets lucky with all his revives and invincibility items, because Sonic’s forms (even if you say they can last for like, a whole day) run out quicker than Mario’s passive RPG equipables which can bring him back to life indefinitely
 
I don't even care if MvS3 gets fanfic-y. I want them to go balls of the walls with their decades of random power-ups
 
Osemere said:
It’s less that he tries to wait out the time limit than he just gets lucky with all his revives and invincibility items, because Sonic’s forms (even if you say they can last for like, a whole day) run out quicker than Mario’s passive RPG equipables which can bring him back to life indefinitely
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That would be a draw for Mario at best, as Death Battle would probably include shit like Cyber Corruption for Sonic to access Starfall Sonic. Which then grants access to the Cyloop for Sonic to infinitely replenish his Rings.

I'm gonna avoid the Speed Sim route of "haha Sonic has septillions of Rings on a normal Tuesday" but that may legit be valid since DB used Speed Sim.
 
Tmk they mainly used speed sim for scaling purposes rather than giving that game’s arsenal to the characters.
 
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