The Dark Tower Cosmology Update

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Para_Pala_Zula​

I disagree with your proposal / CRT, especially with the "all possible worlds". The verse cannot go beyond 2-A, and even this 2-A is below a "normal" 2-A because it doesn't contain timelines where the Crimson King won. Otherwise, it would destroy the Tower itself.

Seven
Standing outside, Roland had judged the Tower to be roughly six hundred feet high. But as he peered into the hundredth room, and then the two hundredth, he felt sure he must have climbed eight times six hundred. Soon he would be closing in on the mark of distance his friends from America-side had called a mile. That was more floors than there possibly could be—no Tower could be a mile high!—but still he climbed, climbed until he was nearly running, yet never did he tire. It once crossed his mind that he’d never reach the top; that the Dark Tower was infinite in height as it was eternal in time. But after a moment’s consideration he rejected the idea, for it was his life the Tower was telling, and while that life had been long, it had by no means been eternal. And as it had had a beginning (marked by the cedar clip and the bit of blue silk ribbon), so it would have an ending.
Soon now, quite likely.
The light he sensed behind his eyes was brighter now, and did not seem so blue. He passed a room containing Zoltan, the bird from the weed-eater’s hut. He passed a room containing the atomic pump from the Way Station. He climbed more stairs, paused outside a room containing a dead lobstrosity, and by now the light he sensed was much brighter and no longer blue.
It was…
He was quite sure it was…
It was sunlight. Past twilight it might be, with Old Star and Old Mother shining from above the Dark Tower, but Roland was quite sure he was seeing—or sensing—sunlight.
He climbed on without looking into any more of the rooms, without bothering to smell their aromas of the past. The stairwell narrowed until his shoulders nearly touched its curved stone sides. No songs now, unless the wind was a song, for he heard it soughing.
He passed one final open door. Lying on the floor of the tiny room beyond it was a pad from which the face had been erased. All that remained were two red eyes, glaring up.
I have reached the present. I have reached now.
Yes, and there was sunlight, commala sunlight inside his eyes and waiting for him. It was hot and harsh upon his skin. The sound of the wind was louder, and that sound was also harsh. Unforgiving. Roland looked at the stairs curving upward; now his shoulders would touch the walls, for the passage was no wider than the sides of a coffin. Nineteen more stairs, and then the room at the top of the Dark Tower would be his.
“I come!” he called. “If’ee hear me, hear me well! I come!”
He took the stairs one by one, walking with his back straight and his head held up. The other rooms had been open to his eye. The final one was closed off, his way blocked by a ghostwood door with a single word carved upon it. That word was

ROLAND.

He grasped the knob. It was engraved with a wild rose wound around a revolver, one of those great old guns from his father and now lost forever.
Yet it will be yours again, whispered the voice of the Tower and the voice of the roses—these voices were now one.
What do you mean?
To this there was no answer, but the knob turned beneath his hand, and perhaps that was an answer. Roland opened the door at the top of the Dark Tower.
He saw and understood at once, the knowledge falling upon him in a hammerblow, hot as the sun of the desert that was the apotheosis of all deserts. How many times had he climbed these stairs only to find himself peeled back, curved back, turned back? Not to the beginning (when things might have been changed and time’s curse lifted), but to that moment in the Mohaine Desert when he had finally understood that his thoughtless, questionless quest would ultimately succeed? How many times had he traveled a loop like the one in the clip that had once pinched off his navel, his own tet-ka can Gan? How many times would he travel it?
“Oh, no!” he screamed. “Please, not again! Have pity! Have mercy!”
The hands pulled him forward regardless. The hands of the Tower knew no mercy.
They were the hands of Gan, the hands of ka, and they knew no mercy.
He smelled alkali, bitter as tears. The desert beyond the door was white; blinding; waterless; without feature save for the faint, cloudy haze of the mountains which sketched themselves on the horizon. The smell beneath the alkali was that of the devil-grass which brought sweet dreams, nightmares, death.
But not for you, gunslinger. Never for you. You darkle. You tinct. May I be brutally frank? You go on.
And each time you forget the last time. For you, each time is the first time.
He made one final effort to draw back: hopeless. Ka was stronger.
Roland of Gilead walked through the last door, the one he always sought, the one he always found. It closed gently behind him.

Eight
The gunslinger paused for a moment, swaying on his feet. He thought he’d almost passed out. It was the heat, of course; the damned heat. There was a wind, but it was dry and brought no relief. He took his waterskin, judged how much was left by the heft of it, knew he shouldn’t drink—it wasn’t time to drink—and had a swallow, anyway.
For a moment he had felt he was somewhere else. In the Tower itself, mayhap. But of course the desert was tricky, and full of mirages. The Dark Tower still lay thousands of wheels ahead. That sense of having climbed many stairs and looked into many rooms where many faces had looked back at him was already fading.
I will reach it, he thought, squinting up at the pitiless sun. I swear on the name of my father that I will.
And perhaps this time if you get there it will be different, a voice whispered—surely the voice of desert delirium, for what other time had there ever been? He was what he was and where he was, just that, no more than that, no more. He had no sense of humor and little imagination, but he was steadfast. He was a gunslinger. And in his heart, well-hidden, he still felt the bitter romance of the quest.
You’re the one who never changes, Cort had told him once, and in his voice Roland could have sworn he heard fear… although why Cort should have been afraid of him—a boy—Roland couldn’t tell. It’ll be your damnation, boy. You’ll wear out a hundred pairs of boots on your walk to hell.
And Vannay: Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
And his mother: Roland, must you always be so serious? Can you never rest?
Yet the voice whispered it again
(different this time mayhap different)
and Roland did seem to smell something other than alkali and devil-grass. He thought it might be flowers.
He thought it might be roses.
He shifted his gunna from one shoulder to the other, then touched the horn that rode on his belt behind the gun on his right hip. The ancient brass horn had once been blown by Arthur Eld himself, or so the story did say. Roland had given it to Cuthbert Allgood at Jericho Hill, and when Cuthbert fell, Roland had paused just long enough to pick it up again, knocking the deathdust of that place from its throat.
This is your sigul, whispered the fading voice that bore with it the dusk-sweet scent of roses, the scent of home on a summer evening—O lost!—a stone, a rose, an unfound door; a stone, a rose, a door.
This is your promise that things may be different, Roland—that there may yet be rest. Even salvation.
A pause, and then:
If you stand. If you are true.
He shook his head to clear it, thought of taking another sip of water, and dismissed the idea. Tonight. When he built his campfire over the bones of Walter’s fire. Then he would drink. As for now…
As for now, he would resume his journey. Somewhere ahead was the Dark Tower. Closer, however, much closer, was the man (was he a man? was he really?) who could perhaps tell him how to get there. Roland would catch him, and when he did, that man would talk—aye, yes, yar, tell it on the mountain as you’d hear it in the valley: Walter would be caught, and Walter would talk.
Roland touched the horn again, and its reality was oddly comforting, as if he had never touched it before.
Time to get moving.
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.
- Source: Dark Tower, Book #7

The Tower is a finite structure; different floors of the Tower contain parts of the same timeline (parts of Roland's life).
There is no "Higher dimension > lower dimension" transcendence between floors.

I don’t want to waste my valuable time writing long texts. Because, even though I don’t mean to be rude, you keep writing long messages repeating things we already discussed in your CRT. And most of them are simply copy pasted quotes anyway. You haven’t even understood the purpose of the CRT, I clearly stated that this is not a downgrade or Upgrade revision. The texts you’re posting are already in the CRT you opened before, and you largely failed there as well. Even people who used to agree with you have moved to the opposing side.

So first defend your own CRT. If you have a serious debunk, share it there, not here. Considering that your CRT is 8 pages long and has received more attention than mine, what more do you want?

I’m saying this as someone who is genuinely polite in daily life: debating with you exhausts me. You just send long, poorly structured texts that overwhelm the reader, and even in your own CRT many people complained about this and refused to read them. That’s all. This is why I no longer want to argue with you, and the reason is clearly obvious. I thought finally someone commented on my CRT, but when I opened the page, I saw that Jockey had already bombarded the CRT with long messages repeating the same things he said before.

I repeat, my intention is absolutely not to hurt you.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Minor Bump

 

[Jockey-1337]

I don’t want to waste my valuable time writing long texts. Because, even though I don’t mean to be rude, you keep writing long messages repeating things we already discussed in your CRT. And most of them are simply copy pasted quotes anyway.

And most of them are simply copy pasted quotes anyway.

Why not? The arguments stand and are relevant for this thread as well. As you may notice, I used only quotes from the books.

I clearly stated that this is not a downgrade or Upgrade revision.

It doesn't matter. If you support these Outerversal/High Outerversal/or even Hyperversal interpretations of the setting, I disagree with it automatically. You know my viewpoint and arguments.

The texts you’re posting are already in the CRT you opened before, and you largely failed there as well.

So first defend your own CRT.

1) The score is 5:8, which is not bad.

2) "I don't support you because you want to downgrade the book verse using comicbook materials" - was the only counter-argument of my opponents. For some reason, they ignored the fact that comics are also canon:

"The Dark Tower contains many levels, and within those levels are parallel words which mirror each other, but which are not exactly alike. I always view the Dark Tower comics as existing in one of these parallel worlds. If the Dark Tower novels exist in Tower Keystone, or the central world of the Dark Tower universe, then the Dark Tower comics exist in a spinoff world, one which is very similar to, but not exactly the same as, the one where The Gunslinger, The Drawing of the Three, The Waste Lands, Wizard and Glass, and the rest of the Dark Tower novels take place. When you think about it, this idea of parallel worlds isn't so different from contemporary theories in quantum physics. According to these theories, every time we make a decision and follow a certain path in life, another reality is born where we make a different decision and follow a different life path. For example, imagine that you are walking down the street. You come to a crossroad. You have a decision to make - you can either turn left and go home or you can turn right and go to the shop and buy a lottery ticket. You tell yourself that buying a lottery ticket is stupid, so you go home and take a nap. However in a parallel reality, a different version of you turned right and bought a lottery ticket...and won! (But don't be too sad that in this where and when you didn't buy that lottery ticket. On another level of the Tower, you were hit by a van before you even reached the store.)"
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Man in Black 01 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

But okay, they have the right to be wrong; it is their problem.

3) Anyway, I will expand my thread in the future using more book materials, so people may change their votes. Books are not much different from comics, we can see the same anti-feats there as well.
I am an old and busy man IRL, so ETA of full update: 1 year or so.

I’m saying this as someone who is genuinely polite in daily life: debating with you exhausts me. You just send long, poorly structured texts that overwhelm the reader, and even in your own CRT many people complained about this and refused to read them.

It is their problem, again. Forums are overall more functional and convenient than wiki blogs, so I use forums instead of wikis.

I saw that Jockey had already bombarded the CRT with long messages repeating the same things he said before.

Why not? The arguments stand and are relevant for this thread as well. As you may notice, I used only quotes from the books. (2)

+ I continue to see, for example, different nonsense about "all possible worlds", tier 0 Final Other and "Deadlights > the Tower".
So, I can copy-paste my arguments to counter their copy-pastas, why not?

As Jockey also mentioned in a CRT that I cannot fully recall, much of what is written there feels like complete fan speculation. For example, referring to Pennywise as a divine being, even though the series never explicitly describes him as such.

Well, you mentioned my nickname but ignored 100% of my ideas.
I don't care whether Pennywise/Deadlight is "divine" or not. To be "divine" is a label, not a feat. Labels are irrelevant in VS debates.
The problem with the Dark Tower is its massively overestimated stats/ratings.

I clearly stated that this is not a downgrade or Upgrade revision.

Ahahaha, bro, do you think we are fools?

Have a look at the current version:

Crimson King: Likely High 1-A
Guardians-Demons: High 1-A
Maturin/Macro-Verse Pennywise: High 1-A²
Pennywise (True Form): High 1-A³
Rose of the Tower, Bessa: High 1-A, Possibly High 1-A⁴
Revitalizing Essence Gan: High 1-A⁴

Your idea:

The Final Other is at the level of Infinite Layered High 1-A with four additional layers

What a sneaky and stealthy tactic... you trying to upgrade it from (High 1-A)^4 to (High 1-A)^infinity+4.
Good attempt, Jason, good attempt.

I repeat, my intention is absolutely not to hurt you.

1) It is obviously... because you have no way to hurt me, anyway.
2) There's nothing personal. I'm debating in different Dark Tower threads on different platforms. Here, you may see examples: #1, #2, #3. Btw, @Re5yh have a look at what people think there as well.

 

[Re5yh]

Why not? The arguments stand and are relevant for this thread as well. As you may notice, I used only quotes from the books.


It doesn't matter. If you support these Outerversal/High Outerversal/or even Hyperversal interpretations of the setting, I disagree with it automatically. You know my viewpoint and arguments.





1) The score is 5:8, which is not bad.

2) "I don't support you because you want to downgrade the book verse using comicbook materials" - was the only counter-argument of my opponents. For some reason, they ignored the fact that comics are also canon:


But okay, they have the right to be wrong; it is their problem.

3) Anyway, I will expand my thread in the future using more book materials, so people may change their votes. Books are not much different from comics, we can see the same anti-feats there as well.
I am an old and busy man IRL, so ETA of full update: 1 year or so.



It is their problem, again. Forums are overall more functional and convenient than wiki blogs, so I use forums instead of wikis.



Why not? The arguments stand and are relevant for this thread as well. As you may notice, I used only quotes from the books. (2)

+ I continue to see, for example, different nonsense about "all possible worlds", tier 0 Final Other and "Deadlights > the Tower".
So, I can copy-paste my arguments to counter their copy-pastas, why not?



Well, you mentioned my nickname but ignored 100% of my ideas.
I don't care whether Pennywise/Deadlight is "divine" or not. To be "divine" is a label, not a feat. Labels are irrelevant in VS debates.
The problem with the Dark Tower is its massively overestimated stats/ratings.



Ahahaha, bro, do you think we are fools?

Have a look at the current version:



Your idea:



What a sneaky and stealthy tactic... you trying to upgrade it from (High 1-A)^4 to (High 1-A)^infinity+4.
Good attempt, Jason, good attempt.



1) It is obviously... because you have no way to hurt me, anyway.
2) There's nothing personal. I'm debating in different Dark Tower threads on different platforms. Here, you may see examples: #1, #2, #3. Btw, @Re5yh have a look at what people think there as well.

After reading this thing, I just cant believe how much you act to the thread. You ignored this user who clearly stated himself that he would rework on the format of the cosmology, not the tiers. But you just care a lot about dark tower tiers so much that you failed to understand him and call him Jason. I'm with Para Pala now.

 

[Jockey-1337]

You ignored this user who clearly stated himself that he would rework on the format of the cosmology, not the tiers.

It seems to me he thinks we are fools, and he actually tries to upgrade the verse.

Check the previous ratings and his proposal:

Crimson King: Likely High 1-A
Guardians-Demons: High 1-A
Maturin/Macro-Verse Pennywise: High 1-A²
Pennywise (True Form): High 1-A³
Rose of the Tower, Bessa: High 1-A, Possibly High 1-A⁴
Revitalizing Essence Gan: High 1-A⁴

->

The Final Other is at the level of Infinite Layered High 1-A with four additional layers

If you know that 2x2=4, you should be able to see this stealthy attempt to upgrade the verse.

I'm with Para Pala now.

I hope you will change your opinion.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

What a sneaky and stealthy tactic... you trying to upgrade it from (High 1-A)^4 to (High 1-A)^infinity+4.
Good attempt, Jason, good attempt.

Dude, this is really funny. Protector Hunk's CRT was never accepted, and the accepted CRT belonged to Jason. Jason ≠ Protector Hunk

Before saying anything, check if the CRT you mentioned is correct.

Moreover, if you look at the cosmology page or profiles currently available on this wiki, you'll understand that the series has infinite layers. This was already accepted at the time, as it appears in the profiles. You're so annoying, Jockey, I only have one thing to say to you:

I am an old and busy man

Behave more maturely as an older person.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Explanation: Jason opened two CRTs for Dark Tower; the first was for approval required for High 1-A, and the second was to openly display the profiles he created. (Infinite layered profiles)

 

[Da3ggman]

Why not? The arguments stand and are relevant for this thread as well. As you may notice, I used only quotes from the books.


It doesn't matter. If you support these Outerversal/High Outerversal/or even Hyperversal interpretations of the setting, I disagree with it automatically. You know my viewpoint and arguments.





1) The score is 5:8, which is not bad.

2) "I don't support you because you want to downgrade the book verse using comicbook materials" - was the only counter-argument of my opponents. For some reason, they ignored the fact that comics are also canon:


But okay, they have the right to be wrong; it is their problem.

3) Anyway, I will expand my thread in the future using more book materials, so people may change their votes. Books are not much different from comics, we can see the same anti-feats there as well.
I am an old and busy man IRL, so ETA of full update: 1 year or so.



It is their problem, again. Forums are overall more functional and convenient than wiki blogs, so I use forums instead of wikis.



Why not? The arguments stand and are relevant for this thread as well. As you may notice, I used only quotes from the books. (2)

+ I continue to see, for example, different nonsense about "all possible worlds", tier 0 Final Other and "Deadlights > the Tower".
So, I can copy-paste my arguments to counter their copy-pastas, why not?



Well, you mentioned my nickname but ignored 100% of my ideas.
I don't care whether Pennywise/Deadlight is "divine" or not. To be "divine" is a label, not a feat. Labels are irrelevant in VS debates.
The problem with the Dark Tower is its massively overestimated stats/ratings.



Ahahaha, bro, do you think we are fools?

Have a look at the current version:



Your idea:



What a sneaky and stealthy tactic... you trying to upgrade it from (High 1-A)^4 to (High 1-A)^infinity+4.
Good attempt, Jason, good attempt.



1) It is obviously... because you have no way to hurt me, anyway.
2) There's nothing personal. I'm debating in different Dark Tower threads on different platforms. Here, you may see examples: #1, #2, #3. Btw, @Re5yh have a look at what people think there as well.

Hey bro, no offense, but you’re acting like a bit of an asshole. If you want your arguments to be taken seriously and continue on the site, I’d strongly recommend knocking it off.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Hey bro, no offense, but you’re acting like a bit of an asshole. If you want your arguments to be taken seriously and continue on the site, I’d strongly recommend knocking it off.

1) Are the smiles banned in this sub-forum? Is there a rule about it?
2) Ok, anyway, I will follow the recommendation.

Moreover, if you look at the cosmology page or profiles currently available on this wiki, you'll understand that the series has infinite layers. This was already accepted at the time, as it appears in the profiles.

Explanation: Jason opened two CRTs for Dark Tower; the first was for approval required for High 1-A, and the second was to openly display the profiles he created. (Infinite layered profiles)

Ok, I have to agree with this part.

However, if you want to replace the existing cosmology page with v2.0 of the same stuff, you have to answer my arguments.

1) How can the Tower have "all possible worlds" if it has a finite height? Plus, the different floors of the Tower have parts of the same timeline (parts of Roland's life), so it is direct evidence against Man-in-Black's* "Universe > Grain of sand > Universe > Grain of sand" propaganda.

* - especially because Man in Black is an unreliable narrator and a liar, you know.

Spoiler

The universe (he said) is the Great All, and offers a paradox too great for the finite mind to grasp. As the living brain cannot conceive of a non-living brain - although it may think it can - the finite mind cannot grasp the infinite.

The prosaic fact of the universe's existence alone defeats both the pragmatic and the romantic. There was a time, yet a hundred generations before the world moved on, when mankind had achieved enough technical and scientific prowess to chip a few splinters from the great stone pillar of reality. Even so, the false light of science (knowledge, if you like) shone in only a few developed countries. One company (or cabal) led the way in this regard: North Central Positronics, it called itself. Yet, despite a tremendous increase in available facts, there were remarkably few insights.

"Gunslinger, our many-times-great grandfathers conquered the-disease-which-rots, which they called cancer, almost conquered aging, walked on the moon - "

"I don't believe that," the gunslinger said flatly.

To this, the man in black merely smiled and answered, "You needn't. Yet it was so. They made or discovered a hundred other marvelous baubles. But this wealth of infomation produced little or no insight. There were no great odes written to the wonders of artificial insemination - having babies from frozen mansperm - or to the cars that ran on power of the sun. Few if any seemed to have grasped the truest principle of reality: new knowledge leads to yet more awesome mysteries. Greater physiological knowledge of the brain makes the existence of the soul less possible yet more probable by the nature of the search. Do you see? Of course you don't. You've reached the limits of your ability to comprehend. But nevermind - that's beside the point."

"What is the point then?"

"The greatest mystery the universe offers is not life but size. Size encompasses life, and the Tower encompasses size. The child, who is most at home with wonder, says: Daddy, what is above the sky? And the father says: The darkness of space. The child: What is beyond space? The father: The galaxy. The child: Beyond the galaxy? The father: Another galaxy. The child: Beyond the other galaxies? The father: No one knows.

"You see? Size defeats us. For the fish, the lake in which he lives is the universe. What does the fish think when he is jerked up by the mouth through the silver limits of existence and into a new universe where the air drowns him and the light is blue madness? Where huge bipeds with no gills stuff it into a suffocating box abd cover it with wet weeds to die?

"Or one might take the tip of the pencil and magnify it. One reaches the point where a stunning realization strikes home: The pencil tip is not solid; it is composed of atoms which whirl and revolve like a trillion demon planets. What seems solid to us is actually only a loose net held together by gravity. Viewed at their actual size, the distances between these atoms might become league, gulfs, aeons. The atoms themselves are composed of nuclei and revolving protons and electrons. One may step down further to subatomic particles. And then to what? Tachyons? Nothing? Of course not. Everything in the universe denies nothing; to suggest an ending is the one absurdity.

"If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END? No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through the shell (or find a door), what great and torrential light might shine through your opening at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them?

"Perhaps you saw what place our universe plays in the scheme of things - as no more than an atom in a blade of grass. Could it be that everything we can perceive, from the microscopic virus to the distant Horsehead Nebula, is contained in one blade of grass that may have existed for only a single season in an alien time-flow? What if that blade should be cut off by a scythe? When it begins to die, would the rot seep into our universe and our own lives, turning everthing yellow and brown and desiccated? Perhaps it's already begun to happen. We say the world has moved on; maybe we really mean that it has begun to dry up.

"Think how small such a concept of things make us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for such a race of gnats? Does His eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see... what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond infinity?

"Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds but universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.

"Size, gunslinger... size.

"Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met at a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a room?...

"You dare not."

And in the gunslinger's mind, those words echoed: You dare not.

- Source: The Gunslinger

Spoiler

Seven
Standing outside, Roland had judged the Tower to be roughly six hundred feet high. But as he peered into the hundredth room, and then the two hundredth, he felt sure he must have climbed eight times six hundred. Soon he would be closing in on the mark of distance his friends from America-side had called a mile. That was more floors than there possibly could be—no Tower could be a mile high!—but still he climbed, climbed until he was nearly running, yet never did he tire. It once crossed his mind that he’d never reach the top; that the Dark Tower was infinite in height as it was eternal in time. But after a moment’s consideration he rejected the idea, for it was his life the Tower was telling, and while that life had been long, it had by no means been eternal. And as it had had a beginning (marked by the cedar clip and the bit of blue silk ribbon), so it would have an ending.
Soon now, quite likely.
The light he sensed behind his eyes was brighter now, and did not seem so blue. He passed a room containing Zoltan, the bird from the weed-eater’s hut. He passed a room containing the atomic pump from the Way Station. He climbed more stairs, paused outside a room containing a dead lobstrosity, and by now the light he sensed was much brighter and no longer blue.
It was…
He was quite sure it was…
It was sunlight. Past twilight it might be, with Old Star and Old Mother shining from above the Dark Tower, but Roland was quite sure he was seeing—or sensing—sunlight.
He climbed on without looking into any more of the rooms, without bothering to smell their aromas of the past. The stairwell narrowed until his shoulders nearly touched its curved stone sides. No songs now, unless the wind was a song, for he heard it soughing.
He passed one final open door. Lying on the floor of the tiny room beyond it was a pad from which the face had been erased. All that remained were two red eyes, glaring up.
I have reached the present. I have reached now.
Yes, and there was sunlight, commala sunlight inside his eyes and waiting for him. It was hot and harsh upon his skin. The sound of the wind was louder, and that sound was also harsh. Unforgiving. Roland looked at the stairs curving upward; now his shoulders would touch the walls, for the passage was no wider than the sides of a coffin. Nineteen more stairs, and then the room at the top of the Dark Tower would be his.
“I come!” he called. “If’ee hear me, hear me well! I come!”
He took the stairs one by one, walking with his back straight and his head held up. The other rooms had been open to his eye. The final one was closed off, his way blocked by a ghostwood door with a single word carved upon it. That word was

ROLAND.

He grasped the knob. It was engraved with a wild rose wound around a revolver, one of those great old guns from his father and now lost forever.
Yet it will be yours again, whispered the voice of the Tower and the voice of the roses—these voices were now one.
What do you mean?
To this there was no answer, but the knob turned beneath his hand, and perhaps that was an answer. Roland opened the door at the top of the Dark Tower.
He saw and understood at once, the knowledge falling upon him in a hammerblow, hot as the sun of the desert that was the apotheosis of all deserts. How many times had he climbed these stairs only to find himself peeled back, curved back, turned back? Not to the beginning (when things might have been changed and time’s curse lifted), but to that moment in the Mohaine Desert when he had finally understood that his thoughtless, questionless quest would ultimately succeed? How many times had he traveled a loop like the one in the clip that had once pinched off his navel, his own tet-ka can Gan? How many times would he travel it?
“Oh, no!” he screamed. “Please, not again! Have pity! Have mercy!”
The hands pulled him forward regardless. The hands of the Tower knew no mercy.
They were the hands of Gan, the hands of ka, and they knew no mercy.
He smelled alkali, bitter as tears. The desert beyond the door was white; blinding; waterless; without feature save for the faint, cloudy haze of the mountains which sketched themselves on the horizon. The smell beneath the alkali was that of the devil-grass which brought sweet dreams, nightmares, death.
But not for you, gunslinger. Never for you. You darkle. You tinct. May I be brutally frank? You go on.
And each time you forget the last time. For you, each time is the first time.
He made one final effort to draw back: hopeless. Ka was stronger.
Roland of Gilead walked through the last door, the one he always sought, the one he always found. It closed gently behind him.

Eight
The gunslinger paused for a moment, swaying on his feet. He thought he’d almost passed out. It was the heat, of course; the damned heat. There was a wind, but it was dry and brought no relief. He took his waterskin, judged how much was left by the heft of it, knew he shouldn’t drink—it wasn’t time to drink—and had a swallow, anyway.
For a moment he had felt he was somewhere else. In the Tower itself, mayhap. But of course the desert was tricky, and full of mirages. The Dark Tower still lay thousands of wheels ahead. That sense of having climbed many stairs and looked into many rooms where many faces had looked back at him was already fading.
I will reach it, he thought, squinting up at the pitiless sun. I swear on the name of my father that I will.
And perhaps this time if you get there it will be different, a voice whispered—surely the voice of desert delirium, for what other time had there ever been? He was what he was and where he was, just that, no more than that, no more. He had no sense of humor and little imagination, but he was steadfast. He was a gunslinger. And in his heart, well-hidden, he still felt the bitter romance of the quest.
You’re the one who never changes, Cort had told him once, and in his voice Roland could have sworn he heard fear… although why Cort should have been afraid of him—a boy—Roland couldn’t tell. It’ll be your damnation, boy. You’ll wear out a hundred pairs of boots on your walk to hell.
And Vannay: Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
And his mother: Roland, must you always be so serious? Can you never rest?
Yet the voice whispered it again
(different this time mayhap different)
and Roland did seem to smell something other than alkali and devil-grass. He thought it might be flowers.
He thought it might be roses.
He shifted his gunna from one shoulder to the other, then touched the horn that rode on his belt behind the gun on his right hip. The ancient brass horn had once been blown by Arthur Eld himself, or so the story did say. Roland had given it to Cuthbert Allgood at Jericho Hill, and when Cuthbert fell, Roland had paused just long enough to pick it up again, knocking the deathdust of that place from its throat.
This is your sigul, whispered the fading voice that bore with it the dusk-sweet scent of roses, the scent of home on a summer evening—O lost!—a stone, a rose, an unfound door; a stone, a rose, a door.
This is your promise that things may be different, Roland—that there may yet be rest. Even salvation.
A pause, and then:
If you stand. If you are true.
He shook his head to clear it, thought of taking another sip of water, and dismissed the idea. Tonight. When he built his campfire over the bones of Walter’s fire. Then he would drink. As for now…
As for now, he would resume his journey. Somewhere ahead was the Dark Tower. Closer, however, much closer, was the man (was he a man? was he really?) who could perhaps tell him how to get there. Roland would catch him, and when he did, that man would talk—aye, yes, yar, tell it on the mountain as you’d hear it in the valley: Walter would be caught, and Walter would talk.
Roland touched the horn again, and its reality was oddly comforting, as if he had never touched it before.
Time to get moving.
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.
- Source: Dark Tower, Book #7

2) How can the Tower have "all possible worlds" if it cannot contain the bad ends where the Outer Dark/Crimson King won (using the Breakers), because the bad ends destroy all of the Tower itself?

Spoiler

"He looked at Stephen King’s unnaturally
twisted body beneath the left front wheel of the blue vehicle and thought Good!
with unthinking savagery. Good! If someone has to die here, let it be you!
To hell with Gan’s navel, to hell with the stories that come out of it, to hell
with the Tower, let it be you and not my boy!"
- The Dark Tower, book #7.

Spoiler

"And the Dark Tower? Stephen King’s version of
the Dark Tower? Or Gan’s version, or the Prim’s version? Lost forever,
all of them. And that sound you hear? Why, that must be the Crimson King,
laughing and laughing and laughing from somewhere deep in the Discordia. And
maybe Mordred the Spider-Boy, laughing along with him."
- The Dark Tower, book #7.

3) How can the Tower have "all possible worlds" if 12 guardians protect everything? What about different modalities like worlds with 11, 13, 100500, or an infinite number of guardians?

4) How can the Tower have "all possible worlds" if this structure is very fragile and can be destroyed from "below"? It is a critical weakness.

Spoiler

"There is a Tower, lady and gentlemen, as
you must know. At one time six beams crisscrossed there, both taking
power from it—it’s some kind of unimaginable power-source—and
lending support, the way guy-wires support a radio tower. Four of these Beams
are now gone, the fourth very recently. The only two remaining are the Beam of
the Bear, Way of the Turtle—Shardik’s Beam—and the Beam of the
Elephant, Way of the Wolf—some call that one Gan’s Beam."
- The Dark Tower, book #7.

Spoiler

“Listening to Trampas’s head, I came to see
that they considered me the catch of the century, maybe of all time, the one
truly indispensable Breaker. I’d already helped them to snap one Beam and I was
cutting centuries off their work on Shardik’s Beam. And when Shardik’s
Beam snaps, lady and gentlemen, Gan’s can only last a little while. And when
Gan’s Beam also snaps, the Dark Tower will fall, creation will end, and the
very Eye of Existence will turn blind."
- The Dark Tower, book #7.

5) How can the Tower have "all possible worlds" if even the Dark Tower itself may have different versions?

Spoiler

"And the Dark Tower? Stephen King’s version of
the Dark Tower? Or Gan’s version, or the Prim’s version? Lost forever,
all of them. And that sound you hear? Why, that must be the Crimson King,
laughing and laughing and laughing from somewhere deep in the Discordia. And
maybe Mordred the Spider-Boy, laughing along with him."

6) Why do you use "The Final Other" instead of Gan? You should use "Gan" because:

6a) It has the same description, all stories came from Gan's navel:

Spoiler

"He looked at Stephen King’s unnaturally
twisted body beneath the left front wheel of the blue vehicle and thought Good!
with unthinking savagery. Good! If someone has to die here, let it be you!
To hell with Gan’s navel, to hell with the stories that come out of it, to hell
with the Tower, let it be you and not my boy!"
- The Dark Tower, book #7.

6b) The verse's God was called "Gan" many times and "the Final Other" on very few occasions.

6c) The Dark Tower books are more fundamental to the Dark Tower cosmology than "It" (book). "It" is just a side storyline which happens in a different level of the Tower (different universe), otherwise it will contradict the DT novels - Maturin died in "It", but in the Dark Tower books he was always alive.

Spoiler

"Your friend the Turtle... he died a few years ago. The old idiot puked inside his shell and choked to death on a galaxy or two. very sad, don't you think? but also quite bizarre, deserves a place in Ripley's Believe It or Not, that's what I think, happened right around the same time you had that writer's block, you must have felt him go, Little Buddy."
- Source: It (novel)

Btw, Maturin died because he "choked to death on a galaxy or two", what a "serious" "feat" for a High 1-A character...

I summed up my arguments; we may continue from here if you want.

You're so annoying, Jockey

Why not? It is your problem. You have to respond to what I posted if you want to continue this discussion. You cannot ignore it.

 

[Jockey-1337]

You ignored this user who clearly stated himself that he would rework on the format of the cosmology, not the tiers.

That is not how it works. If he wants to replace or change the page, he should be able to defend his viewpoint or completely delete debatable fragments from it.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

1) Are the smiles banned in this sub-forum? Is there a rule about it?

This is disturbing because it's more of a sarcastic expression than a genuine smile.

Ok, I have to agree with this part.

Whether you agree or disagree, this is still proof that you wrote haphazardly without doing your research or knowing what's right and wrong.

Plus, the different floors of the Tower have parts of the same timeline (parts of Roland's life), so it is direct evidence against Man-in-Black's* "Universe > Grain of sand > Universe > Grain of sand" propaganda.

First of all, the Man in Black said that these grains of sand do not converge in the rooms of the Tower, but rather in a single pylon inside the Tower. The rooms can open into Roland’s memories within themselves, and there is no issue with that. In fact, since the Tower is a living thing, this could simply be a variable experience unique to Roland, but that part falls into insufficient evidence. Anyway, the universes do not correspond to the rooms; they correspond to this instead:

Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met in a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a Room? . . .

Moreover, even though the text says that everything converges in a single pylon, it also says that the staircase leading to the rooms Roland enters opens onto a room above endless reality. Here you might say that the Man in Black is speaking hypothetically, but statements such as infinite worlds are confirmed in books like Black House or in expressions such as the Room at the top of the Tower in The Dark Tower VII. This also refutes the claim that “he is a liar, his words are unreliable,” as you suggested.

1) How can the Tower have "all possible worlds" if it has a finite height?

2) How can the Tower have "all possible worlds" if it cannot contain the bad ends where the Outer Dark/Crimson King won (using the Breakers), because the bad ends destroy all of the Tower itself?

3) How can the Tower have "all possible worlds" if 12 guardians protect everything? What about different modalities like worlds with 11, 13, 100500, or an infinite number of guardians?

4) How can the Tower have "all possible worlds" if this structure is very fragile and can be destroyed from "below"? It is a critical weakness.

5) How can the Tower have "all possible worlds" if even the Dark Tower itself may have different versions?

What exactly do you mean here? Because two possibilities come to my mind. One is that someone tries to debunk something like All Possible Worlds if there is a High 1-A+ upgrade involved, but I have no intention like High 1-A+. The second is that in the series these worlds are literally referred to as All Possible Worlds. What do you expect me to write there, “Almost All Possible Worlds” or something? I only wrote it that way because the series itself calls them All Possible Worlds. Otherwise it would not really matter whether it was written that way or not.

It was not just the axle of all possible worlds, but the worlds themselves-the worlds, and the spaces between those worlds. —The Talisman

the Talisman, axle of all possible worlds. And was it also Phil Sawyer’s folly? —The Talisman

•

6) Why do you use "The Final Other" instead of Gan? You should use "Gan" because:

6a) It has the same description, all stories came from Gan's navel:

The fact that stories come from Gan’s navel, the Dark Tower, does not make Gan a writer. In the Dark Tower, stories are equivalent to worlds, and worlds exist around or within the Tower. Gan influencing them does not mean he is their author; that is a weak context. On the other hand, it is stated that stories come to life from the Prim after they are written, which makes my point more accurate. Gan is not the writer; he influences the stories and the worlds:

KING, STEPHEN (THE WRITER, KAS-KA GAN)
Like TED BRAUTIGAN, Stephen King our favorite kas-ka Gan-is actually a facilitator. However, whereas Ted's special talent increases the psychic abilities of those around him, sai King's special skill brings characters out of the PRIM and into the world of form. In more than two hundred short stories and more than forty novels, King has created hundreds of doorways leading into, and out of, KEYSTONE EARTH.

6b) The verse's God was called "Gan" many times and "the Final Other" on very few occasions

Yes. Likewise, the only god in the series who is explicitly stated to be omnipotent is the Final Other, while no such statement exists for Gan. In fact, you yourselves refuted this in your own CRT or in Oxonom2962’s CRT. Moreover, there are several more points indicating that Gan is not omnipotent:

PRIM (AM, GADOSH, GREATER DISCORDIA)
In the final book of the Dark Tower series, we learn that MORDRED DESCHAIN, Roland's half-son and nemesis, was born of the joining of two worlds the Prim and the am, the gadosh and godosh, GAN and GILEAD. Prim, gadosh, and Gan all refer to the primordial magical substance (or generating force) from which the multiverse arose. Am, godosh, and Gilead refer to the physical world, also known as the mortal world. —The Complete Concordance

If each of the Demon Elementals corresponds to one of the Guardians of the Beams, then the Crimson King, the polar opposite of Gan, must be (in his spider form at least) the Beast that guards the Tower. This would make perfect sense, since at least one of the Demon Elementals plays a large part in the Red King's plan to destroy both Tower and multiverse. —The Complete Concordance

There is not a single god in the series; this statement clearly shows that there is more than one god:

"James Cagney—the taheen who was standing with Gaskie in the foyer of the Feveral Hall dormitory when the trouble started, remember him?—saw what was going to happen and began yelling at the guards who were staggering out of Damli’s west wing, red-eyed and coughing, some with their pants on fire, a few—oh, praise Gan and Bessa and all the gods—with weapons" —Dark Tower VII

I don't see a truly omnipotent, all-creating being like The Final Other in the middle of all this. All descriptions for Gan are limited to things like "the creator of the Multiverse."

6c) The Dark Tower books are more fundamental to the Dark Tower cosmology than "It" (book). "It" is just a side storyline which happens in a different level of the Tower (different universe), otherwise it will contradict the DT novels - Maturin died in "It", but in the Dark Tower books he was always alive.

In It, it is somewhat unclear whether the turtle mentioned there is an illusion created by Pennywise, Maturin’s true form, or his actually dead state. Because the statement is genuinely contradictory, but also quite open to interpretation, it is difficult to say with certainty that it is definitively contradictory or definitively non-contradictory. Anyway, I'll be able to answer that better after rereading the part about Maturin's death.

I summed up my arguments; we may continue from here if you want.

I don't want to because you're just repeating the same things we already talked about on your own CRT. Are you going to keep offering the same things until I change my mind? Because the most important people in this CRT are the staff, and I need their approval for this CRT to serve a purpose. When writing long messages, we won't say, "Maybe this is enough, maybe I should just accept what Jockey/Para Pala says now." Perhaps that's enough.

 

[Jockey-1337]

First of all, the Man in Black said that these grains of sand do not converge in the rooms of the Tower, but rather in a single pylon inside the Tower. The rooms can open into Roland’s memories within themselves, and there is no issue with that. In fact, since the Tower is a living thing, this could simply be a variable experience unique to Roland, but that part falls into insufficient evidence. Anyway, the universes do not correspond to the rooms; they correspond to this instead:

Moreover, even though the text says that everything converges in a single pylon, it also says that the staircase leading to the rooms Roland enters opens onto a room above endless reality. Here you might say that the Man in Black is speaking hypothetically, but statements such as infinite worlds are confirmed in books like Black House or in expressions such as the Room at the top of the Tower in The Dark Tower VII. This also refutes the claim that “he is a liar, his words are unreliable,” as you suggested.

The conditions in the Tower's top were not different from the conditions of everything else.

Plus, the Tower was described as Gan's body. So the conditions are not different even when Roland entered Gan's body.

What exactly do you mean here? Because two possibilities come to my mind. One is that someone tries to debunk something like All Possible Worlds if there is a High 1-A+ upgrade involved, but I have no intention like High 1-A+. The second is that in the series these worlds are literally referred to as All Possible Worlds. What do you expect me to write there, “Almost All Possible Worlds” or something? I only wrote it that way because the series itself calls them All Possible Worlds. Otherwise it would not really matter whether it was written that way or not.

The "all possible worlds" in the context of the verse are possible in a very limited degree of freedom.

Yes. Likewise, the only god in the series who is explicitly stated to be omnipotent is the Final Other, while no such statement exists for Gan. In fact, you yourselves refuted this in your own CRT or in Oxonom2962’s CRT.

Oxonom2962’s CRT.

It is a bad example - Oxonom's ideas have been nuked by me and others. We cannot even surely say whether The Final Other even exists. There is no solid evidence of it.

you yourselves refuted this in your own CRT

Yeah. Gan is not omnipotent, so the Dark Tower doesn't have an omnipotent god at all.

If each of the Demon Elementals corresponds to one of the Guardians of the Beams, then the Crimson King, the polar opposite of Gan, must be (in his spider form at least) the Beast that guards the Tower. This would make perfect sense, since at least one of the Demon Elementals plays a large part in the Red King's plan to destroy both Tower and multiverse. —The Complete Concordance

So... Gan = The Crimson King > > > The Final Other, who is a featless and possibly nonexistent character.

The fact that stories come from Gan’s navel, the Dark Tower, does not make Gan a writer. In the Dark Tower, stories are equivalent to worlds, and worlds exist around or within the Tower. Gan influencing them does not mean he is their author; that is a weak context. On the other hand, it is stated that stories come to life from the Prim after they are written, which makes my point more accurate. Gan is not the writer; he influences the stories and the worlds:

Look at this:

"No writer is Gan - no painter, no sculptor, no maker of music. We are kas-ka Gan.......The prophets of Gan." - The Dark Tower

If "the Final Other" has been described as an "author", he is only a minion of Gan.

The Other dwelt in a void beyond

The Other is a power beyond all others power, the author of all there was

IT would be an infinitesimale Fly in this Other's mind

That is another argument for "Gan > TFO", if you count TFO as a separated character.
Personally I think TFO and Gan are different names of the same character, because otherwise it would be fanon.

I don't want to because you're just repeating the same things we already talked about on your own CRT. Are you going to keep offering the same things until I change my mind? Because the most important people in this CRT are the staff, and I need their approval for this CRT to serve a purpose. When writing long messages, we won't say, "Maybe this is enough, maybe I should just accept what Jockey/Para Pala says now." Perhaps that's enough.

Maybe because you ignore most of my arguments and hope that other people will also ignore them?

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

1) Random Arguments

The conditions in the Tower's top were not different from the conditions of everything else.

Plus, the Tower was described as Gan's body. So the conditions are not different even when Roland entered Gan's body.

It doesn’t seem like a clear explanation of what I said, and it doesn’t even really count as an explanation. I am treating the staircase that leads to the rooms and the pylon where the universes converge as separate things, and I already stated that Roland ascended to the top via the stairs.

The "all possible worlds" in the context of the verse are possible in a very limited degree of freedom.

This is not an explanation for my argument either. I used the phrase “All Possible Worlds” because it appears exactly like that in the series, but I never claimed that the series encompasses everything like High 1-A+. Yet you are presenting unnecessary anti-feats as if I had made such a claim, which is completely unnecessary.

It is a bad example - Oxonom's ideas have been nuked by me and others. We cannot even surely say whether The Final Other even exists. There is no solid evidence of it.

Bro... Please read what I said carefully. It is clear in the text that I was referring to your statements, not Oxonom’s statements. Here it is:

Yes. Likewise, the only god in the series who is explicitly stated to be omnipotent is the Final Other, while no such statement exists for Gan. In fact, you yourselves refuted this in your own CRT or in Oxonom2962’s CRT. Moreover, there are several more points indicating that.

2) About Gan

So... Gan = The Crimson King > > > The Final Other, who is a featless and possibly nonexistent character.

"possibly nonexistent character" ?
Final Other has clearly spoken with Bill, which confirms his existence. Didn’t you read the books? The answer to that is already obvious:

And clearly, he heard the Voice of the Other; the Turtle might be dead, but whatever had invested it was not. "Son, you did real good." Then it was gone. The power went with it. He felt weak, revulsed, half-insane.

Moreover, it seems that Gan cannot even protect itself from abyss, as it appears to be dependent on Maturin carrying it and all of existence on its back.

King smiled a little and made a gentle wissshhh- ing sound. “The wind blows,” said he. “Gan bore the world and moved on,” Roland replied. “Is that what you mean to say?” “Aye, and the world would have fallen into the abyss if not for the great turtle. Instead of falling, it landed on his back.” “So we’re told, and we all say thank ya. Start with the lobstrosities biting off my fingers.” “Dad-a-jum, dad-a-jingers, goddam lobsters bit off your fingers,” King said, and actually laughed.

3) Gan > TFO??

So... Gan = The Crimson King > > > The Final Other, who is a featless and possibly nonexistent character.

Can you say anything about Gan other than that he created Ka and the Multiverse? Because the Final Other is also described as Maturin’s creator. Maturin is beyond the Tower and Ka, that is, beyond Gan’s power. Moreover, there is not even a qualitative superiority that separates Gan from the Guardians, but the TFO is qualitatively superior to Maturin.

Were you to go beyond the Tower, it would become the Beam of Maturin, the great turtle upon whose shell the world rests.

These other portals are things far greater than Walter, or me, or the little fellowship we three have made.” “Are you saying,” Susannah asked hesitantly, “that the portals where these Guardians stand watch are outside ka? Beyond ka?” “I’m saying that I believe so.” He offered his own brief smile, a thin sickle in the firelight. “That I guess so.”

"Oh, no!" he screamed. "Please, not again! Have pity! Have mercy!" The hands pulled him forward regardless. The hands of the Tower knew no mercy. They were the hands of Gan, the hands of ka, and they knew no mercy.

This quote clearly shows that TFO created Maturin:

This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was.

Personally I think TFO and Gan are different names of the same character, because otherwise it would be fanon.

So, all interpretations made outside of your own view are fan-made, is that right?

4) Is Gan a writer?
Your arguments (full quote):

Are you Gan?" he asked abruptly, not knowing why this question came to him-only that it was the right question. "No," King said at once. Blood ran into his mouth from the cut on his head and he spat it out, never blinking. "Once I thought I was, but that was just the booze. And pride, I suppose. No writer is Gan-no painter, no sculptor, no maker of music. We are kas-ka Gan. Not ka-Gan but kas-ka Gan. Do you understand? Do you... do you ken?" "Yes," Roland said. The prophets of Gan or the singers of Gan: it could signify either or both. And now he knew why he had asked. "And the song you sing is Ves-Ka Gan. Isn't it?" "Oh, yes!" King said, and smiled. "The Song of the Turtle. It's far too lovely for the likes of me, who can hardly carry a tune!" "I don't care," Roland said. He thought as hard and as clearly as his dazed mind would allow.

If "the Final Other" has been described as an "author", he is only a minion of Gan.

This statement says that the authors are not Gan himself, and the term “authors” here refers to ordinary people like Stephen King. Therefore, this quote does not lead to the conclusion that “Gan is the author.” The conclusion is: “Authors serve Gan.” This is not an identity equivalence.

Should the Other serve Gan if it is an author?

Your argument is based on: “If The Other is an author, then it must serve Gan within the community of authors.” But this only holds if Gan is the supreme absolute being within the universe. The debate is already centered on this question: Is Gan in a higher position? Or is The Other in a higher position? Stephen King, even if authors who serve kas-ka hold a higher position, are still ordinary humans; they are not portrayed like The Other. They can be perceived by their own characters and even reached. There is even a difference between The Other and the writer King as depicted in The Dark Tower series.

Maybe because you ignore most of my arguments and hope that other people will also ignore them?

Which ones? Did I miss them? Also, as far as I can see, I responded to your important arguments; otherwise, we are drifting too far from the topic. I want to edit the Cosmology page, whereas you keep reposting arguments that I have already answered, even though you already have a crt aimed at downgrading the series. This is exhausting for me. My crt was opened to revise, while yours was opened to downgrade. If you have a serious argument, share it in your own “CONTENT DOWNGRADE REVISION.”

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Antvasima, Jockey's arguments are endless, he could write them forever. So could you call someone to read both sides and come to a conclusion?

 

[Re5yh]

Hi @Antvasima , Jockey's arguments are endless, he could write them forever. So could you call someone to read both sides and come to a conclusion?

Normal users can't ping staff members

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Normal users can't ping staff members

I fixed it, buddy.

 

[Jockey-1337]

It doesn’t seem like a clear explanation of what I said, and it doesn’t even really count as an explanation. I am treating the staircase that leads to the rooms and the pylon where the universes converge as separate things, and I already stated that Roland ascended to the top via the stairs.

I will try to find easier words:
1) If the cosmology has the "Universe > Grain of sand > Universe > Grain of sand" structure
and
2) If the Tower is the "nexus point of all realities," it should also connect "higher" realities; they cannot exist separately.

This is not an explanation for my argument either. I used the phrase “All Possible Worlds” because it appears exactly like that in the series, but I never claimed that the series encompasses everything like High 1-A+. Yet you are presenting unnecessary anti-feats as if I had made such a claim, which is completely unnecessary.

Then why do you use the "all possible worlds" as a part of your blog cosmology? You should defend it or delete it, because otherwise, it may cause debates about High 1-A+ stuff.

"possibly nonexistent character" ?
Final Other has clearly spoken with Bill, which confirms his existence. Didn’t you read the books? The answer to that is already obvious:

Bill doesn't know and cannot know whether it is the "omnipotent" god of the setting or not.

3) Gan > TFO??

Yes, at least Gan has whatever feats; and by feats, Gan is the strongest character in the verse.
If TFO is a separated character, he is featless anyway. Existence in place X outside of place Y is not a feat.

This quote clearly shows that TFO created Maturin:

This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was.

"perhaps" - not "clearly" at all.

This statement says that the authors are not Gan himself, and the term “authors” here refers to ordinary people like Stephen King. Therefore, this quote does not lead to the conclusion that “Gan is the author.” The conclusion is: “Authors serve Gan.” This is not an identity equivalence.

The verse has metafictional stuff, you know. If TFO is a separated character and is an "author," then he is Gan's (or the Crimson King's) minion.

Should the Other serve Gan if it is an author?

Yes, because both storylines were made by the same author - Stephen King, so there is no copyright problem here.

Your argument is based on: “If The Other is an author, then it must serve Gan within the community of authors.” But this only holds if Gan is the supreme absolute being within the universe. The debate is already centered on this question: Is Gan in a higher position? Or is The Other in a higher position?

Spoiler

"He looked at Stephen King’s unnaturally
twisted body beneath the left front wheel of the blue vehicle and thought Good!
with unthinking savagery. Good! If someone has to die here, let it be you!
To hell with Gan’s navel, to hell with the stories that come out of it, to hell
with the Tower, let it be you and not my boy!"
- The Dark Tower, book #7.

Gan's navel is the place from which the stories came.
TFO is the author of the stories.
Conclusion: TFO is Gan, or a different name/face of Gan.

So, all interpretations made outside of your own view are fan-made, is that right?

You need to prove that TFO is a separate character first, if you think so, then we may talk about it further.

Which ones? Did I miss them?

You haven't answered any of them:

1) The "Universe > Grain of sand > Universe > Grain of sand" is debatable stuff. Higher interpretations cause more inconsistencies with the rest of the setting.
2) "All possible worlds" has... a ton of anti-feats and inconsistencies.
3) You try to use "The Final Other" as a separate character (to ignore Gan's anti-feats, I suppose), but you don't have enough arguments, likely at all.

My crt was opened to revise, while yours was opened to downgrade. If you have a serious argument, share it in your own “CONTENT DOWNGRADE REVISION.”

1) It contains a ton of materials from comics, and I will continue to expand it, adding extra materials from books; there is no problem with it.
2) My thread is not a CRT at this moment; it was moved to a different sub-forum.

Antvasima, Jockey's arguments are endless

My arguments are infinite multiversal and without anti-feats, I count it as a compliment, thanks.

Normal users can't ping staff members

Who?

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

I will try to find easier words:
1) If the cosmology has the "Universe > Grain of sand > Universe > Grain of sand" structure

Alright, we are starting again.
First of all, I never stated a “universe > grain of sand > universe > grain of sand” logic in the cosmology; you are probably assuming my cosmology page is the same as the typical Dark Tower scalers and trying to give pre-prepared answers. The scale I described is as follows:

Trillions of grains of sand = trillions of universes

A Universe = an infinite number of universes

An infinite number of universes > infinite worlds

2) If the Tower is the "nexus point of all realities," it should also connect "higher" realities; they cannot exist separately.

The phrase ‘nexus of all realities’ generally refers to realities at the same ontological level. The Tower encompasses or connects all universes, but this does not mean that these universes must be connected to each other. An equivocation fallacy is the mistake of using the same word in different meanings.

Then why do you use the "all possible worlds" as a part of your blog cosmology? You should defend it or delete it, because otherwise, it may cause debates about High 1-A+ stuff

I already gave a response to this here and here:

What exactly do you mean here? Because two possibilities come to my mind. One is that someone tries to debunk something like All Possible Worlds if there is a High 1-A+ upgrade involved, but I have no intention like High 1-A+. The second is that in the series these worlds are literally referred to as All Possible Worlds. What do you expect me to write there, “Almost All Possible Worlds” or something? I only wrote it that way because the series itself calls them All Possible Worlds. Otherwise it would not really matter whether it was written that way or not.

This is not an explanation for my argument either. I used the phrase “All Possible Worlds” because it appears exactly like that in the series, but I never claimed that the series encompasses everything like High 1-A+. Yet you are presenting unnecessary anti-feats as if I had made such a claim, which is completely unnecessary.

(you are repeating something I already answered 1).

Bill doesn't know and cannot know whether it is the "omnipotent" god of the setting or not.

This is a major Straw Man Fallacy. I told you that the Final Other spoke with Bill, therefore it definitely exists, but you are telling me that the Final Other is not omnipotent (Here). What does that have to do with what I said?

Yes, at least Gan has whatever feats; and by feats, Gan is the strongest character in the verse.
If TFO is a separated character, he is featless anyway. Existence in place X outside of place Y is not a feat.

This is also a major Red Herring Fallacy. Because in this message I clearly stated that the Other created Maturin, and that Maturin is equal to or superior to Gan (Other > Maturin > Gan), but you did not respond to those points. Right now you have committed three fallacies: Equivocation Fallacy, Straw Man Fallacy, and Red Herring Fallacy.

The verse has metafictional stuff, you know. If TFO is a separated character and is an "author," then he is Gan's (or the Crimson King's) minion.

This statement is still invalid because I already addressed this in my previous response. Here:

Your argument is based on: “If The Other is an author, then it must serve Gan within the community of authors.” But this only holds if Gan is the supreme absolute being within the universe. The debate is already centered on this question: Is Gan in a higher position? Or is The Other in a higher position? Stephen King, even if authors who serve kas-ka hold a higher position, are still ordinary humans; they are not portrayed like The Other. They can be perceived by their own characters and even reached. There is even a difference between The Other and the writer King as depicted in The Dark Tower series.

(You are repeating something I already answered 2)

Yes, because both storylines were made by the same author - Stephen King, so there is no copyright problem here.

This is an illogical answer. The Stephen King in fiction and the real-life Stephen King are not the same. According to that logic, Stephen King > Gan, because he wrote the stories in which Gan appears.

Gan's navel is the place from which the stories came.
TFO is the author of the stories.
Conclusion: TFO is Gan, or a different name/face of Gan.

This is also an Argument by Repetition Fallacy or a second Red Herring. I already gave a response to this, yet you ignored it again and repeated the same argument.
(You are repeating something I already answered 3)
My response is here (And there's a quote right below that argument):

The fact that stories come from Gan’s navel, the Dark Tower, does not make Gan a writer. In the Dark Tower, stories are equivalent to worlds, and worlds exist around or within the Tower. Gan influencing them does not mean he is their author; that is a weak context. On the other hand, it is stated that stories come to life from the Prim after they are written, which makes my point more accurate. Gan is not the writer; he influences the stories and the worlds:

•

You need to prove that TFO is a separate character first, if you think so, then we may talk about it further.

Yes, we have been discussing this topic for the past few hours. I still believe that the Final Other is a separate entity and that with your constantly repeating arguments you are just being stubborn. If you think Gan = TFO, I respect that, but there is no need to keep repeating the same things and bothering me. When you write long, repetitive messages, do you expect someone to say, “This person must be right because they wrote so much”? What matters is being able to write short and concise points; when you go on repeating at length, it tires your opponent, and discussions shouldn’t progress that way.

You haven't answered any of them:

1) The "Universe > Grain of sand > Universe > Grain of sand" is debatable stuff. Higher interpretations cause more inconsistencies with the rest of the setting.
2) "All possible worlds" has... a ton of anti-feats and inconsistencies.
3) You try to use "The Final Other" as a separate character (to ignore Gan's anti-feats, I suppose), but you don't have enough arguments, likely at all.

I already responded to these, this is very frustrating. You’re dragging out the discussion just by saying I didn’t reply, but I did. I can even prove it with links.

1) Universe > Grain of Sand (and this is the message you read)
2) All Possible Worlds
3) Final Other and Gan
You may not agree with the responses I gave to these, but you cannot say that I ignored them.

1) It contains a ton of materials from comics, and I will continue to expand it, adding extra materials from books; there is no problem with it.
2) My thread is not a CRT at this moment; it was moved to a different sub-forum.

That's your problem, because you didn't defend your own CRT well enough. And as I said, my CRT isn't exactly a downgrade or upgrade revision.

My arguments are infinite multiversal and without anti-feats, I count it as a compliment, thanks.

Actually, when I said you could talk forever, I didn’t mean that your arguments are valuable or challenging to me. Simply talking is not an achievement…

Anyway.
CONCLUSION: There are three, probably four, fallacies (Equivocation, Straw Man, Red Herring, Argument by Repetition) and it's a self-repeating argument I've already answered three times.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Until Antvasima sees my response, I will call @Re5yh here, as I believe them to be completely objective. Because he's one of the people on this CRT who has knowledge about the Dark Tower, and I don't think he's biased.

@Re5yh
Jockey and I seem to be arguing forever. Can you give a summary of this issue or comment on who is right? This would be a convenience for a staff member. We're not in a hurry, whenever you want.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Alright, we are starting again.
First of all, I never stated a “universe > grain of sand > universe > grain of sand” logic in the cosmology; you are probably assuming my cosmology page is the same as the typical Dark Tower scalers and trying to give pre-prepared answers. The scale I described is as follows:

Trillions of grains of sand = trillions of universes

Universe = an infinite number of universes

An infinite number of universes > infinite worlds

The same universe-level grains of sand = the same nonsense.

The phrase “nexus of all realities” usually refers to realities on the same ontological level. The Tower encompasses or connects all universes, but that does not mean those universes must be connected to each other. An equivocation fallacy is the mistake of using the same word in different meanings.

It says "nexus of all realities", it doesn't say "nexus of all realities which exist on the same level".
The "nexus of all realities which exist on the same level" is fanon.
+ The Crimson King's goal would be unreachable to him completely.

Try better.

I already gave a response to this here and here:

My copy-pasta is better than yours:

1) The "all possible worlds" in the context of the verse are possible worlds in a very limited degree of freedom.

2) Then why do you use the "all possible worlds" as a part of your blog cosmology? You should defend it or delete it, because otherwise, it may cause debates about High 1-A+ stuff.

This is a major Straw Man Fallacy. I told you that the Final Other spoke with Bill, therefore it definitely exists, but you are telling me that the Final Other is not omnipotent

1) Maybe because you are trying to use TFO as some kind of "omnipotent" in your wiki blog?
The ability to speak in somebody's head is an unimpressive feat for a character, whom you want to put on a level of "omnipotent", lol, what a nonsense.

2) You still have to prove that TFO is a separate character.

3) His words could be a hallucination in Bill's head. Hallucinations exist in many stories of Stephen King, who is a horror writer.

Because in this message I clearly stated that the Other created Maturin

This quote clearly shows that TFO created Maturin:

This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was.

"perhaps" - not "clearly" at all.

Try better.

This statement is still invalid because I already addressed this in my previous response. Here:

"The Final Other is author" is an in-universe title.
"Gan can control authors" is an in-universe ability.
So if the Final Other is a separate character, it is under the control of Gan across all universes in Stephen King's omniverse. There are no copyright problems with it.

This is an illogical answer. The Stephen King in fiction and the real-life Stephen King are not the same. According to that logic, Stephen King > Gan, because he wrote the stories in which Gan appears.

It is open for interpretations. The setting is full of metafictional things. You may say that the Dark Tower has a fictional copy of Stephen King who exists there. Or you may say that Gan has fate control over real people (I know, it is too much, but we talk about fiction, Diamond Emineus, for example, transcends both - fictional and real stuff (a fine addition to the joke characters category)).

This is also an Argument by Repetition Fallacy or a second Red Herring. I already gave a response to this, yet you ignored it again and repeated the same argument.
(You are repeating something I already answered 3)
My response is here (And there's a quote right below that argument):

I was hoping you would post something useful. Instead of this, you post the stuff that rather debunks your viewpoint, this is an example:

This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was.

^ This is an example. Thanks for this. I do not need to search other threads to find this quote.

Yes, we have been discussing this topic for the past few hours. I still believe that the Final Other is a separate entity and that with your constantly repeating arguments you are just being stubborn. If you think Gan = TFO, I respect that, but there is no need to keep repeating the same things and bothering me.

Can you provide something more useful than your opinion? It is a battle of arguments, not opinions.

1) Universe > Grain of Sand (and this is the message you read)
2) All Possible Worlds
3) Final Other and Gan
You may not agree with the responses I gave to these, but you cannot say that I ignored them.

I disagree with this; your proofs are insufficient, and you misinterpret these things.

That's your problem, because you didn't defend your own CRT well enough. And as I said, my CRT isn't exactly a downgrade or upgrade revision.

The only "problem" is the sources. For some reasons people simply do not accept arguments from comics. However, I can debunk the verse using only books, because books have most of the main anti-feats.

Anyway.
CONCLUSION: There are three, probably four, fallacies (Equivocation, Straw Man, Red Herring, Argument by Repetition) and it's a self-repeating argument I've already answered three times.

You copy and paste the same arguments from the previous post too, ignoring awkward questions from me.

@Re5yh
Jockey and I seem to be arguing forever. Can you give a summary of this issue or comment on who is right? This would be a convenience for a staff member. We're not in a hurry, whenever you want.

he's one of the people on this CRT who has knowledge about the Dark Tower

Yeah, it would be cool to see any arguments from him. I hope he will support them with source material better than you, Para.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

The same universe-level grains of sand = the same nonsense.



It says "nexus of all realities", it doesn't say "nexus of all realities which exist on the same level".
The "nexus of all realities which exist on the same level" is fanon.
+ The Crimson King's goal would be unreachable to him completely.

Try better.


My copy-pasta is better than yours:

1) The "all possible worlds" in the context of the verse are possible worlds in a very limited degree of freedom.

2) Then why do you use the "all possible worlds" as a part of your blog cosmology? You should defend it or delete it, because otherwise, it may cause debates about High 1-A+ stuff.



1) Maybe because you are trying to use TFO as some kind of "omnipotent" in your wiki blog?
The ability to speak in somebody's head is an unimpressive feat for a character, whom you want to put on a level of "omnipotent", lol, what a nonsense.

2) You still have to prove that TFO is a separate character.

3) His words could be a hallucination in Bill's head. Hallucinations exist in many stories of Stephen King, who is a horror writer.







"perhaps" - not "clearly" at all.

Try better.



"The Final Other is author" is an in-universe title.
"Gan can control authors" is an in-universe ability.
So if the Final Other is a separate character, it is under the control of Gan across all universes in Stephen King's omniverse. There are no copyright problems with it.


It is open for interpretations. The setting is full of metafictional things. You may say that the Dark Tower has a fictional copy of Stephen King who exists there. Or you may say that Gan has fate control over real people (I know, it is too much, but we talk about fiction, Diamond Emineus, for example, transcends both - fictional and real stuff (a fine addition to the joke characters category)).



I was hoping you would post something useful. Instead of this, you post the stuff that rather debunks your viewpoint, this is an example:



^ This is an example. Thanks for this. I do not need to search other threads to find this quote.



Can you provide something more useful than your opinion? It is a battle of arguments, not opinions.


I disagree with this; your proofs are insufficient, and you misinterpret these things.



The only "problem" is the sources. For some reasons people simply do not accept arguments from comics. However, I can debunk the verse using only books, because books have most of the main anti-feats.



You copy and paste the same arguments from the previous post too, ignoring awkward questions from me.





Yeah, it would be cool to see any arguments from him. I hope he will support them with source material better than you, Para.

For now, I'll just wait for @Re5yh ; it seems you don't understand what you're saying and are only programmed for writing.

 

[Jockey-1337]

For now, I'll just wait for @Re5yh ; it seems you don't understand what you're saying and are only programmed for writing.

@Re5yh's opinion is very important to me; I hope he will support my interpretation.

 

[Re5yh]

For now, I'll just wait for @Re5yh ; it seems you don't understand what you're saying and are only programmed for writing.

Sorry, I dont think i have some knowledge of the series, you could ask @Gewsbumpz_dude for that

@Re5yh's opinion is very important to me; I hope he will support my interpretation.

Unfortunately, after eating this, I disagree, because you only ignore knowledgeable members and use your own interpretation towards them since I know that you have a huge obsession of this verse

My copy-pasta is better than yours:

1) The "all possible worlds" in the context of the verse are possible worlds in a very limited degree of freedom.

2) Then why do you use the "all possible worlds" as a part of your blog cosmology? You should defend it or delete it, because otherwise, it may cause debates about High 1-A+ stuff.

There is nothing wrong about putting All possible worlds with this verse, but you seem that you want to be against it. I mean All possible worlds cannot meet with High 1-A+ Types 1 or 2 because they have to be only one all arbitrarily logical possible worlds. To make it alpws, you would want a world to be bivalence classical logic, but you are only focused at 2-A.

You copy and paste the same arguments from the previous post too, ignoring awkward questions from me.

You are the one who ignores him, not him. The reason you say that he ignores you is because he read you messages and was trying to say something

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Sorry, I dont think i have some knowledge of the series, you could ask @Gewsbumpz_dude for that

Unfortunately, after eating this, I disagree, because you only ignore knowledgeable members and use your own interpretation towards them since I know that you have a huge obsession of this verse

There is nothing wrong about putting All possible worlds with this verse, but you seem that you want to be against it. I mean All possible worlds cannot meet with High 1-A+ Types 1 or 2 because they have to be only one all arbitrarily logical possible worlds. To make it alpws, you would want a world to be bivalence classical logic, but you are only focused at 2-A.

You are the one who ignores him, not him. The reason you say that he ignores you is because he read you messages and was trying to say something

Thank you for your completely unbiased review.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Sorry, I dont think i have some knowledge of the series, you could ask @Gewsbumpz_dude for that

No problem, buddy.
@Udlmaster Would you like to comment on this discussion? You only need to read the sections from here¹ to here².

 

[Antvasima]

@Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint @SamanPatou @ActuallySpaceMan42

Are any of you willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Jockey-1337]

Unfortunately, after eating this, I disagree, because you only ignore knowledgeable members and use your own interpretation towards them since I know that you have a huge obsession of this verse

There are important quotes that I posted to debunk his interpretations (here and here).
His counter-arguments like "generally refers to realities at the same ontological level" are based on his subjective opinion, not source material.
And when he tries to use source materials, he uses debatable stuff like "perhaps" as solid evidence. It is hilarious.

In other words, he hasn't posted anything to counter my quotes, and his interpretation has inconsistencies with these arguments. He has no cards.

There is nothing wrong about putting All possible worlds with this verse, but you seem that you want to be against it. I mean All possible worlds cannot meet with High 1-A+ Types 1 or 2 because they have to be only one all arbitrarily logical possible worlds. To make it alpws, you would want a world to be bivalence classical logic, but you are only focused at 2-A.

"All possible words" is a thing that heavily depends on the context.

For example, in Tegmark's multiversal theory, level 1 and level 3 multiverses have "all possible" stuff, but they are only a part of the bigger structure (level 4 multiverse, the bigger "everything"):

Spoiler

According to current theories, processes early in the big bang spread matter around with a degree of randomness, generating all possible arrangements with nonzero probability
- Max Tegmark's work about Parallel Universes

Spoiler

QUANTUM MECHANICS PREDICTS a vast number of parallel universes by broadening the concept of "elsewhere." These universes are located elsewhere, not in ordinary space but in an abstract realm of all possible states. Every conceivable way that the world could be (within the scope of quantum mechanics) corresponds to a different universe. The parallel universes make their presence felt in laboratory experiments, such as wave interference and quantum computation.
- Max Tegmark's work about Parallel Universes

Spoiler

The Nature of Time MOST PEOPLE THINK of time as a way to describe change. At one moment, matter has a certain arrangement; a moment later, it has another(left). The concept of multiverses suggests an alternative view. If parallel universes contain all possible arrangements of matter (right), then time is simply a way to put those universes into a sequence. The universes themselves are static; change is an illusion, albeit an interesting one.
- Max Tegmark's work about Parallel Universes

Spoiler

If physics is unitary, then the standard picture of how quantum fluctuations operated early in the big bang must change. These fluctuations did not generate initial conditions at random. Rather they generated a quantum superposition of all possible initial conditions, which coexisted simultaneously.
- Max Tegmark's work about Parallel Universes

but you are only focused at 2-A.

I powercap the Dark Tower Mythos at 2-A because it is the only interpretation that works with the rest of the setting without contradictions and inconsistencies.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

Since I don't want to argue with Jockey any further, I will call someone I know is knowledgeable about this topic and ask them to reach a conclusion. If they want, they can start reading from here (#38) and here (#58) and then give their final decision.
@Kairach

 

[Jockey-1337]

Since I don't want to argue with Jockey any further, I will call someone I know is knowledgeable about this topic and ask them to reach a conclusion. If they want, they can start reading from here (#38) and here (#58) and then give their final decision.
@Kairach

I can continue debates with Kairach then

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

I can continue debates with Kairach then

No, he'll just get to a conclusion. The reason I'm calling @Kairach or @Re5yh is precisely because of your endless, repetitive arguments.

 

[Jockey-1337]

No, he'll just get to a conclusion. The reason I'm calling @Kairach or @Re5yh is precisely because of your endless, repetitive arguments.

You summon the Dark Tower fans (I remember Kairach supported all pro-Dark Tower upgrades previously in debates with a mod) like their opinion is the absolute truth, and these fans, obviously, will support pro-Dark Tower interpretations.

Unlike you, Antvasima summoned mods, who are neutral and objective. I hope to see more of their opinions.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

You summon the Dark Tower fans (I remember Kairach supported all pro-Dark Tower upgrades previously in debates with a mod) like their opinion is the absolute truth, and these fans, obviously, will support pro-Dark Tower interpretations.

Unlike you, Antvasima summoned mods, who are neutral and objective. I hope to see more of their opinions.

I was the one who asked Antvasima to call neutral moderators anyway. But it wouldn’t have been bad to see a few more people here until they arrived. Anyway, don’t write anything else anymore so the topic doesn’t get any more diluted. (Including this message.)

 

[Jockey-1337]

If they want, they can start reading from here (#38) and here (#58) and then give their final decision.

These questions about "all possible worlds" are also important.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

These questions about "all possible worlds" are also important.

Are you doing this intentionally? They already need to read all messages from #38 to #58th

 

[Jockey-1337]

Are you doing this intentionally? They already need to read all messages from #38 to #58th

I want to transform your thread into v2.0 of my downgrade thread

Have a look, I found new quotes that may be useful here:

In the New York of the late 1970s, Jake Chambers is
haunted by the same question: alive or dead? Which is he? After killing a
gigantic bear named either Mir (so called by the old people who went in fear of
it) or Shardik (by the Great Old Ones who built it), Roland, Eddie, and Susannah
backtrack the beast and discover the Path of the Beam known as Shardik to
Maturin, Bear to Turtle. There were once six of these Beams, running between the
twelve portals which mark the edges of Mid-World. At the point where the Beams
cross, at the center of Roland’s world (and all worlds), stands the Dark Tower,
the nexus of all where and when.
- Source: The Dark Tower, Book #5

The Tower is a structure that is bound by space and time (different timelines in the context of the verse)

“I did it for my son,” Slightman said. “Andy came to me and said they would
surely take him. Somewhere over there, Roland-” He pointed east, toward
Thunderclap. “Somewhere over there are poor creatures called Breakers.
Prisoners. Andy says they’re telepaths and psychokinetics, and although I ken
neither word, I know they’re to do with the mind. The Breakers are human, and
they eat what we eat to nourish their bodies, but they need other food, special
food, to nourish whatever it is that makes them special.”
“Brain-food,” Roland said. He remembered that his mother had called fish
brain-food. And then, for no reason he could tell, he found himself thinking of
Susannah’s nocturnal prowls. Only it wasn’t Susannah who visited that midnight
banquet hall; it was Mia. Daughter of none.
“Yar, I reckon,” Slightman agreed. “Anyway, it’s something only twins have,
something that links them mind-to-mind. And these fellows-not the Wolves, but
they who send the Wolves- take it out. When it’s gone, the kids’re idiots.
Roont. It’s food, Roland, do ya kennit? That’s why they take em! To feed their
goddamned Breakers! Not their bellies or their bodies, but their minds! And I
don’t even know what it is they’ve been set to break!”
“The two Beams that still hold the Tower,” Roland said.
Slightman was thunderstruck. And fearful. “The Dark Tower?” He whispered the
words. “Do ya say so?”
- Source: The Dark Tower, Book #5

“Two,” Roland said. “There have to be at least two, I’d say. The one running through
Calla Bryn Sturgis and another. But God knows how long they’ll hold. Even
without the Breakers working on them, I doubt they’d hold for long. We have to
hurry.”
- Source: The Dark Tower, Book #6

Waiting for one or both of them to snap. Whether it was them trailing Susannah or Rosa
cooking her dinner or even Ben Slightman, mourning his dead son out there on
Vaughn Eisenhart’s ranch, all of them would now be thinking of the same thing:
only two left, and the Breakers working against them night and day, eating into
them, killing them.
How long before everything ended? And how would it end? Would they hear the vast
rumble of those enormous slate-colored stones as they fell? Would the sky tear
open like a flimsy piece of cloth, spilling out the monstrosities that lived in
the todash darkness? Would there be time to cry out? Would there be an
afterlife, or would even Heaven and Hell be obliterated by the fall of the Dark
Tower?
- Source: The Dark Tower, Book #6

^ The Dark Tower is a fragile multiverse; it can be destroyed by telepaths: 4 Beams destroyed, 2 Beams are temporarily alive.

 

[Jockey-1337]

The fate of the Dark Tower itself depends on mortal heroes:

“My quest-the quest of my ka-tet-is the Dark Tower, Pere. It’s not saving this
world we’re about, or even this universe, but all universes. All of existence.”
- Source: The Dark Tower, Book #5

More stuff about the Breakers and the future fate of the Tower:

“The Crimson King’s Breakers are only hurrying along a process that’s already in
train. The machines are going mad. You’ve seen this for yourself. The men
believed there would always be more men like them to make more machines. None
of them foresaw what’s happened. This…this universal exhaustion.”
“Theworld has moved on.”
“Aye, lady. It has. And left no one to replace the machines which hold up the last
magic in creation, for the Prim has receded long since. The magic is gone and
the machines are failing. Soon enough the Dark Tower will fall. Perhaps
there’ll be time for one splendid moment of universal rational thought before
the darkness rules forever. Wouldn’t that be nice?
- Source: The Dark Tower, Book #6

The Dark Tower contains all universes; logically it would also contain a universe where "the Final Other" dwells (if TFO is a separate character):

The gunslinger said, “I used to think the most terrible thing would be to reach the
Dark Tower and find the top room empty. The God of all universes either dead or
nonexistent in the first place. But now…suppose there is someone there, Eddie?
Someone in charge who turns out to be…” He couldn’t finish.
- Source: The Dark Tower, Book #6

 

[Bahaha]

Jockey seems to make more sense to me with his scans while the OP uses speculation and "perhaps" as confirmation for his position.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Jockey seems to make more sense to me with his scans while the OP uses speculation and "perhaps" as confirmation for his position.

Thanks.

Also, @Re5yh, I still hope you will change your opinion. May I ask to read the stuff I posted in the post #75 and #76?
Previously, you were criticizing me for using comics to debunk the book verse. Now I use the anti-feats that originate from the books.

 

[Para_Pala_Zula]

I want to transform your thread into v2.0 of my downgrade thread

I think I'll have to report you for this.

I was the one who asked Antvasima to call neutral moderators anyway. But it wouldn’t have been bad to see a few more people here until they arrived. Anyway, don’t write anything else anymore so the topic doesn’t get any more diluted. (Including this message.)

Jockey, didn’t I already tell you not to post anything new until a staff member or someone knowledgeable reviews our counterarguments, considering how long we have already been debating this? You have derailed the thread as much as possible and ignored several of the arguments I gave you. We have argued for so long that you’ve turned this place into another version of your CRT a paradise of long texts that nobody wants to read. Do you enjoy repeating yourself?

I tell you not to post until a staff member arrives, yet you keep posting. I say that I’ve already responded, yet you continue presenting the same thing over and over again until I change my mind. Under normal circumstances, that would count as torture.

Now I’m going to call someone to properly review this thread. Hopefully they will address the issue specifically and return the CRT to its original purpose. Until then, do not write anything. (This is the second time I've said this, hopefully it will work this time)

 

[Jockey-1337]

I think I'll have to report you for this.

It was a joke, obviously.

We have argued for so long that you’ve turned this place into another version of your CRT

And it is so because the amount (and quality) of my counter-arguments outweighs your arguments even in your CRT.

Jockey, didn’t I already tell you not to post anything new until a staff member or someone knowledgeable reviews our counterarguments, considering how long we have already been debating this?

You are not a mod, so you are not in a position to demand from me to comment or not to comment on something.

You have derailed the thread as much as possible and ignored several of the arguments I gave you.

In posts #75 and #76, I published new quotes that were not published anywhere before, even in my thread.

Until then, do not write anything. (This is the second time I've said this, hopefully it will work this time)

You made the cosmology blog, be ready to welcome comments about the cosmology, including the anti-feats. The posts #75 and #76 are not off-topic, so you need to respond to them.