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A Wild Last Boss: Abilities revamp

Enter_Bluey

Enter_Bluey

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Hi, I've made additions in a sandbox here. What it goes over is:

1. Establishing end point as a realm, while "realm of God" as an existence (simple stuff)
2. Going for logic manipulation (Also gone over in logic thread, but added some more explanation and scans...so let's see)
3. Revamping already existing ability descriptions, and adding a few more abilities which would be highlighted.
 
Are you trying to update the Cosmology blog with the realm of god stuff? If so, fine I guess.

Logic manipulation seems quite frankly hard to get, so not going to comment on that.

Not sure if immunity negation is even a thing anymore, the page was updated, which I have heard means if someone can bypass/force an immune character to for example feel pain, despite being immune, that proves they don't have immunity in the first place, but could be wrong about that.

The rest I suppose are ok, though AE type 1 might be a bit of a stretch.
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
the page was updated, which I have heard means if someone can bypass/force an immune character to for example feel pain, despite being immune, that proves they don't have immunity in the first place, but could be wrong about that.
Click to expand...
"in the first place" part is wrong. They will still have the immunity initially and only lose it when that aspect is enforced on them. For example, a character can have two keys: with the first key, they lack pain, but with the second key, the concept of pain was enforced on them, causing them to lose their pain immunity. So, if their immunity is lost through conceptual enforcement, they would have had immunity at first but lose it later. However, if they simply feel pain despite being said to lack it, without any enforcement, then they wouldn’t have immunity in the first place.
 
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Grabbing_dragon said:
. They will still have the immunity initially and only lose it when that aspect is enforced on them. For example, a character can have two keys: with the first key, they lack pain, but with the second key, a concept of pain was enforced on them, causing them to lose their pain immunity. So, if their immunity is lost through conceptual enforcement, they would have had immunity at first but lose it later. However, if they simply feel pain despite being said to lack it, without any enforcement, then they wouldn’t have immunity in the first place.
Click to expand...
As you can see below, it says 'no longer qualify' rather than 'not qualify in the first place'
Additionally, Immunity is not an absolute defense. If an ability can force an aspect upon the character or they are forced to participate in an aspect due to similar reasons, they would no longer qualify for Immunity,
 
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1. What makes the regeneration negation High-Godly?
2. Logic Manipulation seems ok with all the reasoning given, though I'm not an expert on the ability
3. Have you considered making a physiology page for all these abilities that all gods and goddesses have?
4. Rest of it seems fine after looking at the justifications given.
 
Celestial_Pegasus said:
Are you trying to update the Cosmology blog with the realm of god stuff? If so, fine I guess.

Logic manipulation seems quite frankly hard to get, so not going to comment on that.

Not sure if immunity negation is even a thing anymore, the page was updated, which I have heard means if someone can bypass/force an immune character to for example feel pain, despite being immune, that proves they don't have immunity in the first place, but could be wrong about that.

The rest I suppose are ok, though AE type 1 might be a bit of a stretch.
Click to expand...
I'll probably just clarify in the blog if it's needed. If not, then I guess it's just getting approved in a thread for later use. I just remember it being said the realm of God stuff would be updated at some point.

For AE 1 I'm honestly fine if it's not a thing. It's just her power is related to mana, so it's either she herself is that power, or she draws from it. Since there's no other power source in the endpoint, and Alovenus is the manifestation of the impossible itself, now no longer human too, I decided may as well suggest it.

From what I can see, they are still "immune", but if it gets bypassed/enforced, this changes. In the case of awlba, I guess we can say immunity (in their base), resistances to X (via overlaying settings) since they have now added attributes to their existence. Based on this, Gods must override the base immunity to fight:

Resistance Negation is the ability to remove an opponent's ability to resist the effects of other powers, allowing the user to then affect them with those abilities. In extreme cases, this ability can even override apparent immunity.
Click to expand...
Settings will also allow them to override immunities by rising above the opponent, since it correlates to hax layer

Also for the acausality negation part, do you think both that and layers work? Or either or 🤔 Imo both work because they're affecting acausal opponents, and then layering over themselves different laws again

Eseseso said:
1. What makes the regeneration negation High-Godly?
2. Logic Manipulation seems ok with all the reasoning given, though I'm not an expert on the ability
3. Have you considered making a physiology page for all these abilities that all gods and goddesses have?
4. Rest of it seems fine after looking at the justifications given.
Click to expand...
High godly comes from the fact Alovenus can regenerate from concept destruction and erasure, having her history erased, etc. But Ruphas can prevent her from coming back and/or erase her. Ruphas actually already has this, the blog is just saying settings are what allow you to do it. So Gods on that level can do it too

I've considered a page, thing is there's only like 4 Gods so not sure if it's needed. If the ability descriptions are too long may do that instead
 
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Enter_Bluey said:
Bumpo
Click to expand...
Sorry I forgot to mention earlier, we differentiated Alovenus and Ruphas as the keys to Goddess and EoS right? So, if we take the strongest version of a character from SBA. Do we take it from the Goddess base, or do we take it from EoS? And if we take it from EoS, will all the abilities in the Settings Manipulation automatically active?
 
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Yuuki_takimoto said:
Sorry I forgot to mention earlier, we differentiated Alovenus and Ruphas as the keys to Goddess and EoS right? So, if we take the strongest version of a character from SBA. Do we take it from the Goddess base, or do we take it from EoS? And if we take it from EoS, will all the abilities in the Settings Manipulation automatically active?
Click to expand...
Strongest version would be EoS. But the ability is passive in both, EoS just ends off on more layers

BoastJr said:
Disagree for Azerty's reasons below
Click to expand...
What the hell I'm so cooked... 😔
 
Logic Manipulation is fine and convincing enough

I don't see Abstract Existence Type 1 ngl. Thought about Limited AE1 but it still doesn't work. They are not existing as certain concept or incorporeal generally. I wanted to tell probably Limited AE1 since she exist even after getting killed but in non existence so for AE1 it doesn't work.

Acausality Type 4 would be layered given description so it is fine. Same goes for NEP aspects.

Although I had lobotomy by reading. You have to fix editing ngl for abilities
 
Hecky2222 said:
Logic Manipulation is fine and convincing enough

I don't see Abstract Existence Type 1 ngl. Thought about Limited AE1 but it still doesn't work. They are not existing as certain concept or incorporeal generally. I wanted to tell probably Limited AE1 since she exist even after getting killed but in non existence so for AE1 it doesn't work.

Acausality Type 4 would be layered given description so it is fine. Same goes for NEP aspects.

Although I had lobotomy by reading. You have to fix editing ngl for abilities
Click to expand...
Spawns from the deepst circle of hell
 
Hecky2222 said:
Logic Manipulation is fine and convincing enough

I don't see Abstract Existence Type 1 ngl. Thought about Limited AE1 but it still doesn't work. They are not existing as certain concept or incorporeal generally. I wanted to tell probably Limited AE1 since she exist even after getting killed but in non existence so for AE1 it doesn't work.

Acausality Type 4 would be layered given description so it is fine. Same goes for NEP aspects.

Although I had lobotomy by reading. You have to fix editing ngl for abilities
Click to expand...
The plan ..lobotomy the readers mind so they don't understand

(But yeah AE 2 works for now)
 
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As for AE, I think we can rephrase it a bit. I wouldn't say Alovenus has a physical form, well at least not how we normally think, but where her appearance isn't her True form. I'd be more inclined to argue that she exists in a state prior to her setting that allows for the existence of a physical/metaphysical body, while still having a cosmic Will. She represents a concept of herself (what I mean by that is, she is fundamentally an abstraction, as maybe the personification of the very idea of "unnecessary and discarded concepts" or the embodiment of the chaos that precedes ordered existence) and via that concept a setting/narrative is instantiated, with that setting, she creates laws which translates to world creation. She then start existing physically (well at least with a body made out of mana) in a reality that doesn't not allow physicals and other metaphysical aspects to exist, for when those metaphysical aspects are created and imposed, they stream downward into creation. And I guess Alovenus having a body in the Final point would further strengthen the argument made for Logic manipulation. She ignores the Logic of that reality as well.

Otherwise I agree with the OP. I hope more are able to evaluate the thread and get this over with. If sufficient evidence is presented to the contrary of AE, I wouldn't have a problem removing it. But that's it for now.
 
DeMarigny'sClock said:
As for AE, I think we can rephrase it a bit. I wouldn't say Alovenus has a physical form, well at least not how we normally think, but where her appearance isn't her True form. I'd be more inclined to argue that she exists in a state prior to her setting that allows for the existence of a physical/metaphysical body, while still having a cosmic Will. She represents a concept of herself (what I mean by that is, she is fundamentally an abstraction, as maybe the personification of the very idea of "unnecessary and discarded concepts" or the embodiment of the chaos that precedes ordered existence) and via that concept a setting/narrative is instantiated, with that setting, she creates laws which translates to world creation. She then start existing physically (well at least with a body made out of mana) in a reality that doesn't not allow physicals and other metaphysical aspects to exist, for when those metaphysical aspects are created and imposed, they stream downward into creation. And I guess Alovenus having a body in the Final point would further strengthen the argument made for Logic manipulation. She ignores the Logic of that reality as well.

Otherwise I agree with the OP. I hope more are able to evaluate the thread and get this over with. If sufficient evidence is presented to the contrary of AE, I wouldn't have a problem removing it. But that's it for now.
Click to expand...
Well we can say her "human" form is like a manifestation made by the power. It's true that she is the "the impossible", and her true form the Goddess which isn't physical. Just not sure how to explain it in a way shows AE 1. Since her existence has no aspects, the power she embodies which is "herself" would be abstractless. But perhaps you could also say with AE2 that this "external power" also isn't dependent on anything either in the EP.

So boils down to "is Alovenus originally that power" or "'does she continously use it", like it's hers but she doesn't embody it. I'm fine with either
 
Now that I get back around to it, bump. And to summarize the logic manip in the scans:

Basically first few scans explain how universe works and why Alovenus's power inherently is illogical.

Humans use logic, reason and rationale to reach conclusions, it has to be one reason or the other. Illogical, contradictory things can only be in fiction, and aren't "realistic" in the universe and reality. By "flipping reality and fiction", we have several things involved with this. That's also why she's inherently unbound by any and all laws.

So when it's explained that "she could have birthed the universe, or it birthed her", or "she can be both before and after the universe", it's displaying possibilities and reason which can't really explain her power. Humanities way of thinking cant do it. Not just including laws or aspects of reality, but logic and reason behind them. She is literally paradoxical.

Being both before and after doesn't make sense normally, neither does the option to be both creating humans and being made by them. This is also an example of what is meant by being unexplainable by reason. So bending laws is a byproduct of this, she gives her "reason" for example, that boiling stuff makes them freeze. Not caring about the physics or process behind it. Her power isn't "just" law manipulation.

So the supporting scans saying she ignores or controls "logic and reason" are based around this. Since we know what her power is like, we know it makes situations in Midgard illogical too. Things involving Alovenus's mana(and her mana helps form the universe she made) allow for contradictions in statements to straight up just work in reality when it shouldn't. The example with Ruphas shows that, and also that it's not just about "laws" or whatever. "Holding back" and "'preparing for full power" at the same time breaks a deductive way of reasoning, it's a contradiction. You could say this is figurative, but the same scan says that Alovenus's power and skills made by her make these things actually work. It's actively creating scenarios that enable contradictions and defy understanding in reality.

So when Alovenus uses her authority, it breaks all things at once. Not just laws, not just providence or fate, and not just logic/reason, but all ways at the same time. We can use that hot and cold scan again, and give examples like:

Ignoring laws would be the physical mechanical process behind converting heat or cold

Ignoring common sense would be like ignoring "heating something should naturally makes it hotter"

Ignoring reason or logic, or breaking theorems would turn something like "'if heating makes things boil, then it also cannot make things freeze." Or If water is getting cold, then it would be deduced the water will freeze, into if water is getting colder, then it will be fire" with no logical chain of arguments or calculation behind this. Hell, it could even be both but it still wouldn't solve her power.


It can bend all these things, as the power is in a realm of "'illogicality" beyond everything described

We can also apply this to Thulu creating the lawless world and contradicting Alovenus's authority. He overwrote a rule set by the Goddess, a unique skill. Unique skills are said to also be "beyond logic", hence why skills in the world of Midgard make contradictions also work.

All the effects, such as flipping things like "common sense/senselessness, near/far", etc are with the previous things in mind. Where her power bends everything in every way described, and by Alovenus applying her "own logic" to do it.
 
Last I recall in the thread DT didn't completely agree. But he said to make a crt to get other opinions after someone else dropped more arguments. I added most of their argument here, additional scans and explanation

(No idea the likelihood of the other two appearing)
 
Grabbing_dragon said:
As you can see below, it says 'no longer qualify' rather than 'not qualify in the first place'
Additionally, Immunity is not an absolute defense. If an ability can force an aspect upon the character or they are forced to participate in an aspect due to similar reasons, they would no longer qualify for Immunity,
Click to expand...
Does that mean Immunity Negotion is still approved on wiki?
 
Bump. And with immunity negation, may just list the aspects instead of linking to cm. Because it's every part of settings being applied not just cm
 
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