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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

ObberGobb said:
Ok, so, in my research on Heralds, I've found that tons of them have Skyfather level feats. Thor, Hulk, Hercules, Sentry, and Thanos have a bunch, as I've mentioned before. Talking with @Eseseso, he mentioned a few potential Skyfather feats for Silver Surfer. The Marvel wiki lists a few indicating that Gladiator scales that high, which I will have to look into.

I know this is extremely controversial and I really hate it, but imo it's really starting to look like a lot of Heralds should maybe be 1-A...

Yes, Thor is sometimes indicated to be vastly more powerful than Herald Tiers, most notably in Blood and Thunder. The problem, though, is basically all of these characters have moments that imply they are stronger than everyone else, and almost all of them have Varies mechanics that could explain these discrepancies.

I just don't know how to square this. Like it feels very off for any of these characters to be Outerversal, I very strongly doubt the authorial intent. But, at the same time, I do think it was definitely the authorial intent for all of these characters to be equal to each other, and that it was at least some of the time the authorial intent to have them be able to hold their own against Skyfather Tier characters. What do we do?
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  1. As we know, no 1-A without BDE Type 3 and connection to 1-A. Any hopes for 1-A is impossible rn. This would make High 1-B or whatever none 1-A tier Skyfathers/Hellords will be downgraded to be the next choice.
  2. @NaturalDestroyer already drop scans of Thor being stronger than even those Skyfather tiers and even holds back when fighting his fellow Skyfather tiers, which is very consistent, placing him above the likes of Sentry, Hercules, Thanos and Surfer.
  3. Authorial intent can be funny as authorial intent can lead to a bunch of consistent outliers.
  4. We can't give varies unless stated.
  5. High 3-A is consistent and a better tier for High Heralds which is universally agreed by all of us.
  6. Gladiator (the embodiment of jobbing) should be on same level as High Heralds on his best days since his power varies.
 
I can buy ObberGobb's reasoning in itself. My problem lies much more with that all universal feats have been extremely wanked to 1-A in the first place. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
I can buy ObberGobb's reasoning in itself. My problem lies much more with that all universal feats have been extremely wanked to 1-A in the first place. 🙏
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No they haven’t, universal feats are high 3-A to low 2-C, feats affecting all of earth 616 are 1-A, earth 616 is not just a single universe
 
Yes, there are alternate timelines and connected mystical realities, but I definitely do not think that it is completely transcendent to all mathematical concepts and real world conceptualisations of physical multiverses either. I think that the Marvel multiverse in its totality is likely 1-A, but not Earth-616 alone. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Yes, there are alternate timelines and connected mystical realities, but I definitely do not think that it is completely transcendent to all mathematical concepts and real world conceptualisations of physical multiverses either. I think that the Marvel multiverse in its totality is likely 1-A, but not Earth-616 alone. 🙏
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Earth 616 includes the astral plane as the outer layer of it and the astral plane has multiple 1-A statements, and universal eternity the embodiment of earth 616 as a whole views all of the stuff within him as a dream/thought which is blatant R>F, also you don’t need to be beyond all real world conceptualizations to be 1-A
 
Yes, you do. The upper limits of all mathematics is tier Low 1-A as far as I am aware.

I think that we have wanked Earth-616 to extremes by using Pre-Retcon Beyonder as its foundational starting point, despite that he was stated to greatly transcend the entirety of the Marvel multiverse. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Yes, you do. The upper limits of all mathematics is tier Low 1-A as far as I am aware. I think that we have wanked Earth-616 to extremes by using Pre-Retcon Beyonder as its foundational starting point. 🙏
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I never said you don’t have to be beyond all mathematics, I said you don’t have to be beyond all real world conceptualizations, there is a big difference, and pre retcon beyonder has nothing to do with the 1-A characters being 1-A
 
Real world conceptualisations of potential multiversal structures do not exceed the upper limits of mathematics as far as I am aware, and I also think that we inaccurately assumed that all cosmic entities are more powerful than the High 1-B Pre-Retcon Beyonder, rather than the Low 2-C Post-Retcon Beyonder, as a foundational basis for our scaling, which I really want to remove. We have to strive for reliability, not as much fan-wanking as possible. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Real world conceptualisations of potential multiversal structures do not exceed the upper limits of mathematics as far as I am aware, and I also think that we inaccurately assumed that all cosmic entities are more powerful than the High 1-B Pre-Retcon Beyonder, rather than the Low 2-C Post-Retcon Beyonder, as a foundational basis for our scaling, which I really want to remove. We have to strive for reliability, not as much fan-wanking as possible. 🙏
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If real world conceptualizations couldn’t exceed multiversal structures at the upper limits of mathematics then none of fiction could exceed multiversal structures at the upper limits of mathematics, a conceptualization is just another word for idea, it is possible to have ideas about stuff larger then multiversal structures at the upper limits of mathematics, and once again the 1-A characters being 1-A has nothing to do with pre retcon beyonder
 
I think that Tegmark's scientific ultimate ensemble multiversal conceptualisations do not exceed Low 1-A, if I remember correctly. We go beyond that by involving spiritual metaphysics.

And I clearly remember that the Pre-Retcon Beyonder at least used to be use as a baseline foundation, but am open to actually informative explanations far beyond your own standard timewasting over-argumentative stonewalling "no it isn't" tactics. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
I think that Tegmark's scientific ultimate ensemble multiversal conceptualisations do not exceed Low 1-A, if I remember correctly. We go beyond that by involving spiritual metaphysics.
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It is possible to have ideas about metaphysics, conceptualization is literally just another word for idea, what Tegmark's scientific ultimate ensemble multiversal conceptualisations do and don’t exceed doesn’t affect what real world conceptualizations include general do and don’t exceed
And I clearly remember that the Pre-Retcon Beyonder at least used to be use as a baseline foundation, but am open to actually informative explanations far beyond your own standard timewasting over-argumentative stonewalling "no it isn't" tactics. 🙏
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one character being infinite dimensional literally has nothing to do with making another character 1-A, and I have already explained to you the reasons for 1-A you just did not read it and I am not stonewalling you, also apologies if I’m being overargumentative but I genuinely strongly disagree with your arguments
 
Excellence616 said:
As we know, no 1-A without BDE Type 3 and connection to 1-A. Any hopes for 1-A is impossible rn. This would make High 1-B or whatever none 1-A tier Skyfathers/Hellords will be downgraded to be the next choice.
Click to expand...
@Eseseso is working on a CRT for mystic realms that will establish God Realms and Hell Realms as Low 1-A, and the realms of Nightmare and Dormammu as 1-A. Skyfathers and Hell Lords have consistent scaling to those characters, so they have to end up at 1-A. Dormammu is more powerful than the Skyfathers and Hell Lords, but he in no way completely transcends them. The Hell Lords together are equal to Dormammu, but 1-A divided by 6 is still 1-A. For Nightmare, the scaling is much more blatant. He was terrified of Cul and Mephisto looked down on him. Scarlet Witch said that her and All-Father Thor are equal powers to Nightmare. There is also Eric Masteron's very casual 1-A feat, which characters like Loki and Gladiator would directly scale to, since they overpowered Eric Masterson in that same run.
Excellence616 said:
@NaturalDestroyer already drop scans of Thor being stronger than even those Skyfather tiers and even holds back when fighting his fellow Skyfather tiers, which is very consistent, placing him above the likes of Sentry, Hercules, Thanos and Surfer.
Click to expand...
Could he show some of those scans again? I must have missed them. I don't think its ever indicated that Thor is stronger than Skyfather Tier. He's sometimes indicated to be stronger than Heralds, but so are many other Heralds. When Thor fought Sentry during Siege, he said he was using his full power. Before, I used the fight in Blood and Thunder as evidence that Thor was much stronger than Heralds, but I think I was wrong. He was bloodlusted, and all the others were his friends who were not. Maybe it shows that he is stronger than them when going all out, but it certainly doesn't imply qualitative superiority.
Excellence616 said:
Authorial intent can be funny as authorial intent can lead to a bunch of consistent outliers.
Click to expand...
Yeah. My point moreso is that I think it is extremely consistent that characters like Thor, Hulk, Hercules, Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Sentry, etc. are supposed to be on roughly the same level with some variation. I really don't think it makes narrative sense for Thor to completely transcend someone like Beta Ray Bill, whose whole thing is that he just has Thor's power and is his equal.
Excellence616 said:
We can't give varies unless stated.
Click to expand...
All of these characters have stated Varies mechanics. I don't know if Silver Surfer has one, but he is directly stated to be always holding back. Thor holds back subconsciously and consciously. Gladiator, Sentry, and Hulk all vary based on mental state. Thanos doesn't vary though.
Excellence616 said:
High 3-A is consistent and a better tier for High Heralds which is universally agreed by all of us.
Click to expand...
Maybe. But we still have like half a dozen 1-A feats from Thor and Eric Masterson, plus several feats against Skyfather Tiers from various Herald level characters. If Thor is 1-A at peak, then several other characters have to be too. If we do High 3-A, then I would strongly prefer dropping all the 1-A feats as outliers, or scaling them a different way, since these characters don't have BDE.
Excellence616 said:
Gladiator (the embodiment of jobbing) should be on same level as High Heralds on his best days since his power varies.
Click to expand...
I agree, which is the problem. Gladiator is definitely a High Herald, but also 1-A Gladiator is weird.
 
Just a quick comment. The scans I've collected show base Thor as being pretty consistently comparable to Skyfathers most of the time, not outright superior. However, when he's tapping into his full power (which has only happened a few times) he scales to and above the entirety of Yggdrasil, and Allfather Thor with the complete Allpower is much, much stronger than any other Skyfather.

I'm still going through every Thor appearance so I'm not going to present scans yet, but I'd advise against too many dramatic Thor-based revisions for the next few months while I'm still collecting information.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
Just a quick comment. The scans I've collected show base Thor as being pretty consistently comparable to Skyfathers most of the time, not outright superior. However, when he's tapping into his full power (which has only happened a few times) he scales to and above the entirety of Yggdrasil, and Allfather Thor with the complete Allpower is much, much stronger than any other Skyfather.

I'm still going through every Thor appearance so I'm not going to present scans yet, but I'd advise against too many dramatic Thor-based revisions for the next few months while I'm still collecting information.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I will wait until your Thor revision to do my Herald revision. As for Yggdrasil, every Skyfather should scale to it. Even baby Thor scales to it, and there is absolutely no way baby Thor is weaker than Skyfathers. Odin is stated to be more powerful than every other Asgardian combined, which means by defealt he upscales all of Thor's feats. Thor definitely scales to Hell Lords, as he has defeated Mephisto and Hela multiple times. He is explicitly weaker than Galactus and Odin though, but I don't think that's necessarily a contradiction.

Could you link some of the stuff you have that indicates All-Father Thor is more powerful than any other Skyfathers?
 
ObberGobb said:
Yeah, I will wait until your Thor revision to do my Herald revision. As for Yggdrasil, every Skyfather should scale to it. Even baby Thor scales to it, and there is absolutely no way baby Thor is weaker than Skyfathers. Odin is stated to be more powerful than every other Asgardian combined, which means by defealt he upscales all of Thor's feats. Thor definitely scales to Hell Lords, as he has defeated Mephisto and Hela multiple times. He is explicitly weaker than Galactus and Odin though, but I don't think that's necessarily a contradiction.

Could you link some of the stuff you have that indicates All-Father Thor is more powerful than any other Skyfathers?
Click to expand...
Odin being stronger than every Asgardian combined is intereresting because I've also found some statements that Thor is regarded as Asgard's mightiest even when Odin is present and included in the comparison. Seems like a give-take situation there but I'll cover that in the Thor megathread as well.

I don't have the scans uploaded to the cloud at the moment (that'll be for when I'm prepping the megathread and sorting each individual feat into tier bins) but some that come to mind are in The Reigning storyline when it took Doctor Strange channeling the combined powers of every single other pantheon of Earth just to separate Thor from the Thorforce (which I'm pretty sure is on his profile currently). Another one is in Immortal Thor when he easily matched and overpowered Reborn Zeus, who was stated multiple times by God of Stories Loki and Ewing directly to be a greater danger than full-power Nyx in the Dark Cold Room.

Narratively, Allfather Thor >> other Skyfathers also makes sense because Thor himself is more Elder God than he is Asgardian, and the entire purpose of his character according to Odin's plan was for him to completely surpass Odin.
 
ObberGobb said:
Could he show some of those scans again? I must have missed them. I don't think its ever indicated that Thor is stronger than Skyfather Tier. He's sometimes indicated to be stronger than Heralds, but so are many other Heralds. When Thor fought Sentry during Siege, he said he was using his full power. Before, I used the fight in Blood and Thunder as evidence that Thor was much stronger than Heralds, but I think I was wrong. He was bloodlusted, and all the others were his friends who were not. Maybe it shows that he is stronger than them when going all out, but it certainly doesn't imply qualitative superiority.
Click to expand...
I tagged you on discord server. The scans are there plenty.
ObberGobb said:
Yeah. My point moreso is that I think it is extremely consistent that characters like Thor, Hulk, Hercules, Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Sentry, etc. are supposed to be on roughly the same level with some variation. I really don't think it makes narrative sense for Thor to completely transcend someone like Beta Ray Bill, whose whole thing is that he just has Thor's power and is his equal.
Click to expand...
Well, Ray Bill is no hybrid. Ray Bill has the power of Thor but not the being that Thor Odinson is.
ObberGobb said:
All of these characters have stated Varies mechanics. I don't know if Silver Surfer has one, but he is directly stated to be always holding back. Thor holds back subconsciously and consciously. Gladiator, Sentry, and Hulk all vary based on mental state. Thanos doesn't vary though.
Click to expand...
Yeah. That why i said no vary unless stated since i don't see Thanos holding back.
ObberGobb said:
Maybe. But we still have like half a dozen 1-A feats from Thor and Eric Masterson, plus several feats against Skyfather Tiers from various Herald level characters. If Thor is 1-A at peak, then several other characters have to be too. If we do High 3-A, then I would strongly prefer dropping all the 1-A feats as outliers, or scaling them a different way, since these characters don't have BDE.
Click to expand...
ObberGobb said:
@Eseseso is working on a CRT for mystic realms that will establish God Realms and Hell Realms as Low 1-A, and the realms of Nightmare and Dormammu as 1-A. Skyfathers and Hell Lords have consistent scaling to those characters, so they have to end up at 1-A. Dormammu is more powerful than the Skyfathers and Hell Lords, but he in no way completely transcends them. The Hell Lords together are equal to Dormammu, but 1-A divided by 6 is still 1-A. For Nightmare, the scaling is much more blatant. He was terrified of Cul and Mephisto looked down on him. Scarlet Witch said that her and All-Father Thor are equal powers to Nightmare. There is also Eric Masteron's very casual 1-A feat, which characters like Loki and Gladiator would directly scale to, since they overpowered Eric Masterson in that same run.
Click to expand...
Eric's feat is still an outlier, same reason as to why Hyperion's feat is.
Thor can still be 1-A while other heralds can be High 3-A without issue since just as no one scales to Hulk at his full power/potential, no Herald like Thanos, Surfer and Sentry scale to Base Thor tapping into is inner most power.

The issue here is that, you wanna scale Skyfathers/Hellords to Peak Thor and then Thor to High Heralds.

We should drop the 1-A. Skyfathers/Hellords might not be 1-A, at best Low 1-A and we can't still scale Heralds to them. We already have High 3-A secured for them. We should not bring a tier that is gonna be removed later on.


Either way, we should wait for @Eseseso and @NaturalDestroyer to finish their research and revision before we can do anything about High Heralds current issue.
 
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On a different note, I read Silver Surfer: Loftier Than Mortals recently (and it's actually canon to Earth-616 so that's cool), and while it's fun to joke about how Doom often loses due to his own ego, the second issue shows how terrifyingly brutal he is when he isn't toying with his opponents.

Not only does he flat-out resist Reed's Cosmic Nullifier and destroy it, but he easily kills all of the Fantastic Four in minutes, and none of their deaths are painless.

The only reason they "win" is because Doom finds killing them with the Power Cosmic to be unsatisfying and he brings them all back to life.
 
Excellence616 said:
I tagged you on discord server. The scans are there plenty.

Well, Ray Bill is no hybrid. Ray Bill has the power of Thor but not the being that Thor Odinson is.

Yeah. That why i said no vary unless stated since i don't see Thanos holding back.


Eric's feat is still an outlier, same reason as to why Hyperion's feat is.
Thor can still be 1-A while other heralds can be High 3-A without issue since just as no one scales to Hulk at his full power/potential, no Herald like Thanos, Surfer and Sentry scale to Base Thor tapping into is inner most power.

The issue here is that, you wanna scale Skyfathers/Hellords to Peak Thor and then Thor to High Heralds.

We should drop the 1-A. Skyfathers/Hellords might not be 1-A, at best Low 1-A and we can't still scale Heralds to them. We already have High 3-A secured for them. We should not bring a tier that is gonna be removed later on.


Either way, we should wait for @Eseseso and @NaturalDestroyer to finish their research and revision before we can do anything about High Heralds current issue.
Click to expand...
I agree to wait for the other threads to conclude. I just now very strongly disagree with the idea of Thor being qualitatively superior to other Heralds. When Thor fought Sentry it was stated he was using his full power. There is really no other way to read that. Even the things we have showing Thor to be stronger nowhere imply that he completely transcends them. That just isn't narratively consistent. And the tapping into inner power thing is mostly fanon. While the term inner power is used I don't think it's ever implied to be some beyond dimensional power source. We use it to arbitrarily remove the 1-A feats from his base, but that's not how the story itself works or treats it. When Thor fought Mephisto and Hela, there was no indication at all he was tapping into some special power he normally doesn't use. When Beta Ray Bill is stated to be Thor's equal, that means he is intended to be Thor's equal. Not "he is equal to Thor, but only up to this arbitrary point of Thor's power, past which Thor completely conceptually transcends him and he would be one-shot by infant Thor."
 
I know that many people here will disagree, but I'll just say that my position is that either every Herald (within reason) scales to what tier Skyfathers end up as, or none of them do and they all go to High 3-A including Thor (making the Herald 1-A feats 2-A would be peak though). I have to wait for the other threads to happen and then conclude to make mine, but this is what I intend to argue in my thread once it comes out several months from now. My thoughts may change depending on the evidence presented in these upcoming threads and my own readings, but this is what I am strongly in favor of now.
 
ObberGobb said:
I know that many people here will disagree, but I'll just say that my position is that either every Herald (within reason) scales to what tier Skyfathers end up as, or none of them do and they all go to High 3-A including Thor (making the Herald 1-A feats 2-A would be peak though). I have to wait for the other threads to happen and then conclude to make mine, but this is what I intend to argue in my thread once it comes out several months from now. My thoughts may change depending on the evidence presented in these upcoming threads and my own readings, but this is what I am strongly in favor of now.
Click to expand...
I'll be sure to keep an eye out for relevant scans as I encounter them 👍
 
ObberGobb said:
I'm currently doing read-throughs of Avengers and Defenders and will collect scans too. Gonna do Silver Surfer and a re-read of the 2000s cosmic stuff as well.
Click to expand...
Sounds good. Lemme know if you find any good hax for Silver Surfer in the first 6 volumes, I'm planning on fixing his lackluster profile in my next P&A CRT
 
Has anyone been reading the new Iron Man run? It's only 2 issues in but I'm liking it quite a lot so far. Its a nice middle ground between his comics personality and his MCU personality, and it feels like a nice return-to-form for Tony after the "Tony hits rock bottom" storyline has been done to death over the last several years. In this run he's actually shown to be extremely competent and charismatic, instead of a lecherous loser. It feels like the writer really gets (but also likes) Iron Man. Very happy with it so far, I hope it stays this good.
 
Rgerdeena said:
Hercules is a demi god, skyfather tier is invalid

I have no clue how many skyfather tier feats Hercules has but I doubt it’s as much as thor
Click to expand...
I was referring to the time Hercules had a stint as a Skyfather back in the Chaos King fiasco.

I think he was regarded as the strongest Skyfather because of that run.
 
Tyranno223 said:
I was referring to the time Hercules had a stint as a Skyfather back in the Chaos King fiasco.

I think he was regarded as the strongest Skyfather because of that run.
Click to expand...
Oh I get what you’re talking about, i don’t think that god of gods Hercules and Odinforce Thor have any showings against each other
 
Rgerdeena said:
Oh I get what you’re talking about, i don’t think that god of gods Hercules and Odinforce Thor have any showings against each other
Click to expand...
Oh, I was thinking more just generic Skyfather Hercules, not the mega god of gods Hercules.

Though in that case, I doubt Odinforce Thor is on that level but I could def be wrong.
 
NaturalDestroyer said:
@ObberGobb What were your thoughts after reviewing the Base Thor scans?
Click to expand...
I definitely think that base Thor should scale to Skyfather level. I knew about a lot of the scans presented, but they also had a bunch that I had never seen, establishing a ton of consistency. However, I do think a lot of Heralds should scale. Thanos, Loki, and Sentry definitely imo. Others, like Silver Surfer, Ultron, and Gladiator I will have to look at. They are indicated to be equal or superior to Thor, but I will have to look at the context and if they have things indicating they could scale to Skyfather or at least downscale. Oh, and characters like Mangog and Kurse should scale to.
 
ObberGobb said:
I definitely think that base Thor should scale to Skyfather level. I knew about a lot of the scans presented, but they also had a bunch that I had never seen, establishing a ton of consistency. However, I do think a lot of Heralds should scale. Thanos, Loki, and Sentry definitely imo. Others, like Silver Surfer, Ultron, and Gladiator I will have to look at. They are indicated to be equal or superior to Thor, but I will have to look at the context and if they have things indicating they could scale to Skyfather or at least downscale. Oh, and characters like Mangog and Kurse should scale to.
Click to expand...
Being indicated to be equal to or stronger then Thor isn’t enough to be skyfather tier because Thor holds back against herald tier characters
 
Rgerdeena said:
Being indicated to be equal to or stronger then Thor isn’t enough to be skyfather tier because Thor holds back against herald tier characters
Click to expand...
Holding back only affects fights against Thor though. If Thor considers someone to be equally as powerful as him, or even more if the narration states someone is equally as powerful as him, holding back doesn't a matter. Someone is either his equal or they aren't, we can't say that the statement is saying they are equal to some arbitrary holding back state.
 
ObberGobb said:
Holding back only affects fights against Thor though. If Thor considers someone to be equally as powerful as him, or even more if the narration states someone is equally as powerful as him, holding back doesn't a matter. Someone is either his equal or they aren't, we can't say that the statement is saying they are equal to some arbitrary holding back state.
Click to expand...
First off Thor sucks at powerscaling so his word is unreliable

Thor saying someone is his equal doesn’t mean a whole lot, equal can mean equal to his normal output or equal to his peak output or anything else, we shouldn’t just assume that he’s referring to his peak power every time he says someone is equal to him, same goes for narration statements
 
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