Super Beyond God removal

[Damage3245]

Okay, so the main point we disagree on is whether what was depicted in the movie Battle of Gods should be canon to the manga version of Dragon Ball Super. I don't think we'll be able to make any further progress on this going back and forth, so I'll wait for additional staff to comment.

 

[TiltedFN]

Okay, so the main point we disagree on is whether what was depicted in the movie Battle of Gods should be canon to the manga version of Dragon Ball Super. I don't think we'll be able to make any further progress on this going back and forth, so I'll wait for additional staff to comment.

If you ignore literally every other problem and contradiction I brought up, then sure.
How about the fact that you can't prove a single claim of yours regarding Saiyan Beyond Gods existence?
What about the fact that you admitted multiple times that you have no answer for the blatant contradictions that are brought into the story for seemingly no reason under the assumption that SBG exist?
There are a ton of problems here. You water it down to just that. Especially since I have evidence that Goku adapted to God in base by RoF.

But sure, if you want to ignore literally everything, we can wait for other staff.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

I'd just like to clarify that in my earlier thread, I wasn't arguing for the existence of brand new "transformation", I made note of that in this point:



My argument was that Goku could tap into his God-like power without transforming which he did in his fight with Whis. (After all, his hair didn't change so you can't say that Goku broke Whis' rule about not transforming)

You've argue that it doesn't make any narrative sense for this to be the case, but I don't think that's the case. Goku just doesn't have a reason to do that anymore when he and Vegeta have Super Saiyan Blue available to them which is clearly superior as they are both using their God power and their Super Saiyan transformation simultaneously which is better than just using God-power by itself. Now, as to whether it's bad writing... Who can say. No matter how you slice it, some things will not end up making sense in the manga. Like how Goku and Vegeta can train for 3 years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, yet Piccolo still ends up in the same ballpark as them despite training in far, far less time.

This was my point as well

 

[TiltedFN]

This was my point as well

You just said a whole bunch of nothing.
Goku and Vegeta can't hit Whis because he's literally Whis.
What does Goku powering up a bit more and attacking actually matter here? Okay?
Goku can just try harder lmfao. You legit have no proof of some kind of altered state 'Saiyan Beyond God' base here.
Your entire response is completely vibe based. You can't actually prove it.
The promotional manga literally follows the movie and tells you to go watch it.
That same movie is literally a sequel to BoG where Base Goku adapts to God.
Not to mention I don't remember Goku actually powering up.
I'm looking at it right now and Goku just charges in again after Whis disposes of Vegeta.
Goku literally just did better that time. Not to mention him and Vegeta were screwing up since they weren't synchronized.

EDIT: I should also point out that part of Whis' training is for them to fight in BASE form and not use any transformations.
This would naturally include Saiyan Beyond God under your and Damages logic which Whis doesn't criticize Goku of doing at any point during the training or after that attack where it shows the image of God Goku behind him.

I feel like we also really need to address the fact that Damage's interpretation is factually incorrect since Goku basically says he CAN still go Super Saiyan. He just doesn't need to because his base form for Frieza is enough. There is no mention of Goku not being able to transform into Super Saiyan because he'd just automatically turn into Blue while using Saiyan Beyond God that doesn't even actually exist. That doesn't exist and never has.

Which I literally addressed.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

You just said a whole bunch of nothing.
Goku and Vegeta can't hit Whis because he's literally Whis.

Which wasn't my point. My point was Goku visibly and explictly does better, going from WIDE misses to actually disturbing his hair and Whis commenting on it.
the manga frames it as a before/after performance jump, and in comics/manga, that framing is evidence of an internal change

What does Goku powering up a bit more and attacking actually matter here? Okay?
Goku can just try harder lmfao. You legit have no proof of some kind of altered state 'Saiyan Beyond God' base here.

OK, except "trying harder" suddenly gets the afterimage of the SSG state? So why didn't he get it when he and Vegeta were attacking before and why does he noticably improve after? If he's just trying harder, why is it framed as a new gear?

Your entire response is completely vibe based. You can't actually prove it.

Not actually a counter, especially when I'm actually using Occam's razor and media analysis and asking questions.

Not to mention I don't remember Goku actually powering up.
I'm looking at it right now and Goku just charges in again after Whis disposes of Vegeta.

My friend. We literally see him reset and aura charge before swinging on Whis and Whis literally says he's doing better.

I feel like we also really need to address the fact that Damage's interpretation is factually incorrect since Goku basically says he CAN still go Super Saiyan. He just doesn't need to because his base form for Frieza is enough. There is no mention of Goku not being able to transform into Super Saiyan because he'd just automatically turn into Blue while using Saiyan Beyond God that doesn't even actually exist. That doesn't exist and never has.

Here's several statements on IF GOD LIKE SAIYANS GO SUPER SAIYAN, THEY WILL GO SUPER SAIYAN BLUE INSTEAD.


Goku in the Resurrection F saga of the anime: "a "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan" Period. It's when someone with the power of SSG tries to transform into SSJ. It's repeated in the Copy Vegeta saga "a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, turned Super Saiyan".

Super Saiyan Rose: "So this is what happens when a Divine being surpasses Super Saiyan God, instead of turning blue they turn pink." and we literally see his SSJ become SSJ Pink when he finally surpasses SSGod.

So we have a statement of "If God-Like Saiyans transform into Super Saiyan, the power of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is born" two statements of "A saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan." and a statement and a demonstration from Goku Black of one turning into the other, not via transformation but explictly evolution as he surpassed SSG and his hair turned Pink.

The idea seems to be that if you're fighting beyond SSG, you will automatically become SSBl.

 

[TiltedFN]

Which wasn't my point. My point was Goku visibly and explictly does better, going from WIDE misses to actually disturbing his hair and Whis commenting on it.
the manga frames it as a before/after performance jump, and in comics/manga, that framing is evidence of an internal change

Maybe because Goku LEARNS as he fights?
Are you also missing that Goku and Vegeta were in each others way?
This is a nothingburger point, Goku just simply did better on that exchange.
There is no altered state, nor is there any proof whatsoever. You are making all of this up.
Goku and Vegeta do just as worse as each other in this scene.
There is no evidence from you.

OK, except "trying harder" suddenly gets the afterimage of the SSG state?

Gee, maybe because Toyotaro decided to frame it that way on that panel?
What are these arguments?

So why didn't he get it when he and Vegeta were attacking before and why does he noticably improve after? If he's just trying harder, why is it framed as a new gear?

"Oh yeah why didn't Toyotaro do it BEFORE and only there" Just searching for scraps atp. Nothing concrete.
Show me this statement of an altered base state.
Goku literally MISSED the punch. It only touched Whis hair since he dodged to the side and Goku's fist grazed it. It legit means nothing.
Whis had a serious face when going against Vegeta as well.
After Goku's missed punch, Vegeta comes back and they perform noticeably the same.

Not actually a counter, especially when I'm actually using Occam's razor and media analysis and asking questions.

Just like you tried to prove Goku powered up despite having anything prove he did? You don't know how Occam's razor works, sorry to say.
Now again, prove your claims.
"Media analysis" oh you mean headcanon and vibe based scaling? Yeah, no.

My friend. We literally see him reset and aura charge before swinging on Whis and Whis literally says he's doing better.

Using an aura when charging in=powering up? Since when?
We see auras when characters fly literally all the time. It's laughable that you think this comes anywhere near what you need to be called "proof".
Whis literally says "ora ora" when they weren't even fighting him and arguing. Another non argument.

Here's several statements on IF GOD LIKE SAIYANS GO SUPER SAIYAN, THEY WILL GO SUPER SAIYAN BLUE INSTEAD.

Thank you for repeating what has already been said.
Now address the problems with this.
Since under your guys logic, why did Goku say he could go Super Saiyan when using Saiyan Beyond God and it not turn him into Blue?
Why did Goku turn Super Saiyan in the actual Battle of Gods movie without turning Blue?
Answer that before you try to completely misinterpret a statement that collapses under the actual material using your interpretation.

Goku in the Resurrection F saga of the anime: "a "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan" Period.

Exactly. So Blue is just God Ki + Super Saiyan Saiyans use God Ki to transform into Super Saiyan Gods. That is the entire point.
And you are using the ANIME where Goku explicitly adapts to God in Base and Super Saiyan form to keep up with Beerus, and RoF is right after that.
You are literally PROVING my point.
In the anime we see Goku channeling his God power with the Super Saiyan aura around him to transform into a Super Saiyan God.
We see Goku use Super Saiyan a billion times in the anime.
Goku uses Super Saiyan GoD and Super Saiyan in the ToP without transforming into Blue.
Your interpretation of that scan doesn't make a lick of sense. You're reading it all wrong.
Goku evidently doesn't use the God transformation in base. Saiyan Beyond God isn't a thing.

It's when someone with the power of SSG tries to transform into SSJ. It's repeated in the Copy Vegeta saga "a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, turned Super Saiyan".

And it's the exact same thing. Goku and Vegeta learned how to use God Ki to become Super Saiyan Gods on their own, and when they combine that with their biology, the Super Saiyan transformation, they become Super Saiyan Blue.

Super Saiyan Rose: "So this is what happens when a Divine being surpasses Super Saiyan God, instead of turning blue they turn pink." and we literally see his SSJ become SSJ Pink when he finally surpasses SSGod.

You do realize Rose is equivalent to Blue right?
He can go regular Super Saiyan, and when he gets access to the power of a God, with multiple Zenkai's and attuned to Goku's body, he becomes Rose since he's Zamasu in Goku's body that's what his form looks like. I'm not sure what your point was here? It just adds more consistency for me.

So we have a statement of "If God-Like Saiyans transform into Super Saiyan, the power of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is born" two statements of "A saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan." and a statement and a demonstration from Goku Black of one turning into the other, not via transformation but explictly evolution as he surpassed SSG and his hair turned Pink.

Saiyans accessing God Ki and combining it with Super Saiyan yes.
Zero statements of altered base states or powerups.
Zero consistency for Saiyan Beyond God.
Zero evidence of it.
And a ton of contradictions.

The idea seems to be that if you're fighting beyond SSG, you will automatically become SSBl.

Which is explicitly wrong as I've been telling you since Goku is able to become a Super Saiyan at will. And that's without turning Blue.
Unless you think Goku was going to get 160,000x weaker and THEN transform into a Super Saiyan God?
Because that is what's needed to make this painful logic work. None of which you can actually prove. Tell me why movie and anime, and manga Goku can go Super Saiyan under the assumption that Goku uses Saiyan Beyond God. Goku doesn't even IMPLY that he couldn't do it or that he'd turn into something else if he tried. He simply says he he doesn't have to resort to it at the moment. And then later on Frieza and Goku agree to not hold ANYTHING back at all, so Goku was intending on going into his strongest form.

 

[Damage3245]

Why did Goku turn Super Saiyan in the actual Battle of Gods movie without turning Blue?

Have you considered that inconsistency between the various works is why we can't jam everything together into one singular canon? The thing you're talking about with Goku going Super Saiyan doesn't happen in the manga version, so it doesn't contradict what we're arguing for with the manga. The information about Resurrection F came out years later than Battle of Gods meaning they could add or change anything they want since the first film came out.

 

[TiltedFN]

Have you considered that inconsistency between the various works is why we can't jam everything together into one singular canon? The thing you're talking about with Goku going Super Saiyan doesn't happen in the manga version, so it doesn't contradict what we're arguing for with the manga. The information about Resurrection F came out years later than Battle of Gods meaning they could add or change anything they want since the first film came out.

Not how it works. It doesn't work anywhere.
It's contradicted at every turn which means there is zero precedent for it.
The statement you're using from the movie doesn't even use the logic. So that means it literally doesn't exist as a mechanic of the verse yet you for some reason want to apply it to the manga? That makes no sense. You're trying to apply something that doesn't exist. Stop beating around the bush.
It doesn't matter if it came out years later dude. What about the anime? It doesn't happen there either, and that was after the RoF movie came out. So what now? Why didn't Goku turn Blue? Why can Goku still go Super Saiyan?
Stop being dishonest.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Agree with damage and quas, dosnt mean much tho

 

[AerrowStorm1]

And it's the exact same thing. Goku and Vegeta learned how to use God Ki to become Super Saiyan Gods on their own, and when they combine that with their biology, the Super Saiyan transformation, they become Super Saiyan Blue.

It doesn't say "God Ki". It explictly says they can gain CONTROL OF GOD LIKE POWER, and when they have that GOD LIKE POWER and then tranform into Super Saiyan, they become SSBlue. Period. It's ALMOST like the words mean, LITERALLY "They can tap into the power of SSG in base, and when they tap into SSG, they turn into SSBlue. If they do not tap into SSG, they do not turn into SSBlue."

It says, EXPLICTLY, "A Saiyan with the POWER OF A SUPER SAIYAN GOD", Power. Not God Ki, "If they use the power of SSGod, they turn Blue." So, if they can go SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, then they're not tapping into that power.

Gee, maybe because Toyotaro decided to frame it that way on that panel?
What are these arguments?

This is not a counter. "He did it for no reason"? Law of Conservation of Detail, man.

. Saiyan Beyond God isn't a thing.

Saiyan Beyond God is enough of a thing for them to reference it, and Zamasu had to train to get it.

You do realize Rose is equivalent to Blue right?
He can go regular Super Saiyan, and when he gets access to the power of a God, with multiple Zenkai's and attuned to Goku's body, he becomes Rose since he's Zamasu in Goku's body that's what his form looks like. I'm not sure what your point was here? It just adds more consistency for me.

I need you to actually process what you just said.

He is in normal Super Saiyan, and then when he gets attuned to Goku's body and SURPASSES SUPER SAIYAN GOD, their Super Saiyan evolves into SSJ Pink. Like, this is explict. He ALREADY had God Ki as a Supreme Kai (we're explictly told Supreme Kais and even Guardians like Dende have God Ki), so if it was just "SSJ plus God Ki" he should have been in it the entire time. It is obviously not that simple, and everything I can find says his SSJ EVOLVED into SSRose after surpassing Super Saiyan God.

 

[TiltedFN]

It doesn't say "God Ki". It explictly says they can gain CONTROL OF GOD LIKE POWER, and when they have that GOD LIKE POWER and then tranform into Super Saiyan, they become SSBlue. Period.

You just linked me the same thing yet again without changing your argument. It's the same as before.
A Super Saiyan God is a Saiyan that has access to God Ki (most refined and pure) so they transform into a Super Saiyan God.
When they combine that with the power of a Super Saiyan, they go into BLUE. It's that simple.
There is not a single example of Saiyans using the actual Super Saiyan God transformation in their base forms. Not a single instance whatsoever.

It's ALMOST like the words mean, LITERALLY "They can tap into the power of SSG in base, and when they tap into SSG, they turn into SSBlue. If they do not tap into SSG, they do not turn into SSBlue."

Yeah no. It was already shown that Goku grew in power once he adapted to the power of a Super Saiyan God and boosted himself to match that previous state.
That is a God-like Saiyan.
But when he actually uses the God Ki and transforms using his Super Saiyan biology (since its a mutation) they mutate again and become a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.
Did you seriously forget that these transformations are just mutations?

It says, EXPLICTLY, "A Saiyan with the POWER OF A SUPER SAIYAN GOD", Power. Not God Ki, "If they use the power of SSGod, they turn Blue." So, if they can go SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, then they're not tapping into that power.

Just repeating yourself atp.
Goku didn't turn Blue in the movie, nor the anime. So that notion is in fact, completely incorrect.
The power of a Super Saiyan God clearly means God Ki here dude.
The anime backs this up since we see Goku's Super Saiyan aura as he focuses the actual God Ki into mutating once more into something new; Which is Super Saiyan Blue obviously.

Saiyan Beyond God is enough of a thing for them to reference it, and Zamasu had to train to get it.

No it's from a DBH card game which references Super Saiyan Blue. It doesn't actually exist.
Did you just ignore that part? It literally isn't real in the way you're implying. It just being some Super Saiyan God transformation in base form. No.

I need you to actually process what you just said.

You haven't processed a single thing I've said and you're actively dodging the contradictions to your own logic.

He is in normal Super Saiyan, and then when he gets attuned to Goku's body and SURPASSES SUPER SAIYAN GOD,

I hope you realize that Goku Black is just Zamasu's soul + Goku's body. He has to get attuned to it to use the equivalent of Blue. As he fights, he gets stronger.
He was already on the level of a God Vegeta in base after a Zenkai, and he wasn't Super Saiyan Rose until he actually transformed. Base Black atp would already be 2-C. He should of transformed instantly by your logic, but he didn't. Zamasu's soul and Ki is what produced Rose to have a different color. But it's functionally the same thing. Even with its drawbacks.

their Super Saiyan evolves into SSJ Pink. Like, this is explict. He ALREADY had God Ki as a Supreme Kai (we're explictly told Supreme Kais and even Guardians like Dende have God Ki),

They have God Ki, but not fully developed refined God Ki. Dende at one point literally says his God Ki was still developing. There's different levels to it.
Goku during the ritual gained access to God Ki that was very refined and pure, and he couldn't be sensed at all by any non God. Same as Goku during the ToP where he couldn't sense the other Gods until he transformed. Do you know why? Since he doesn't have God Ki in base at that point.

so if it was just "SSJ plus God Ki" he should have been in it the entire time.

Wrong, since Base Black is a God level fighter atp even using SBG assumptions.

It is obviously not that simple, and everything I can find says his SSJ EVOLVED into SSRose after surpassing Super Saiyan God.

I also find it funny how you ignored every contradiction to this dumb logic.
Why was Goku a Super Saiyan during the anime Beerus fight?
Why does Goku imply and basically just state he CAN go Super Saiyan but just simply doesn't need it at all?
Prove Goku would weaken himself by 160,000 times for no reason just to transform into Super Saiyan.
Prove he can just turn it on and off.
Prove any time he's in base fighting an opponent that he's not using it as opposed to using it.
You can't, it's pure conjecture and headcanon that lets you pick and choose who scales or not without any real validity backing it up.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

lmfao when Zamasu says 'so when a divine being surpasses SSG' he is quite literally referring to SSB. Rose is not just pink SSJ. You know how we know, because Zamasu literally says 'instead of turning blue, they turn pink'. He didn't say gold, he said blue, because SSR is SSB in a divine being's body.

Saiyan Beyond God being a form is backed by functionally nothing, so I agree with its removal.

Like it's never mentioned by name, it's never explained in universe like SSG and SSB and SSR are, it is quite literally a ghost of a form.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

A Super Saiyan God is a Saiyan that has access to God Ki (most refined and pure) so they transform into a Super Saiyan God.

Citation for this "most refined and pure" claim? Because that came from nowhere. You originally just said they needed God Ki, now they need special refined God Ki?

But like, Goku was able to go Blue using the God Ki of a drained Vegeta, a bunch of non-gods, and Dende when he'd been drained to base. And was able to go into MUI when he was given Uub's God Ki, who hasn't trained yet.

You just linked me the same thing yet again without changing your argument. It's the same as before.
A Super Saiyan God is a Saiyan that has access to God Ki (most refined and pure) so they transform into a Super Saiyan God.
When they combine that with the power of a Super Saiyan, they go into BLUE. It's that simple.
There is not a single example of Saiyans using the actual Super Saiyan God transformation in their base forms. Not a single instance whatsoever.

Going from Base to God. Dragon Ball Super chapter 22

Jumping from Base to Blue.Chapter 21

Dropping from SSG to base


Stating with their strength drained, they can't go Red or Blue.

So what, does God Ki drain first then regular ki? Or is it they're not strong enough to go to these forms? Which one makes more sense? Because I'd need a statement on "God Ki drains faster than normal ki" and not "You need this level of power to go to these forms"

Goku didn't turn Blue in the movie, nor the anime. So that notion is in fact, completely incorrect.
The power of a Super Saiyan God clearly means God Ki here dude.
The anime backs this up since we see Goku's Super Saiyan aura as he focuses the actual God Ki into mutating once more into something new; Which is Super Saiyan Blue obviously.

Citation needed on that last claim

You haven't processed a single thing I've said and you're actively dodging the contradictions to your own logic.

I believe you believe that.

They have God Ki, but not fully developed refined God Ki. Dende at one point literally says his God Ki was still developing. There's different levels to it.

Statement of this "fully refined God Ki" claim, especially when Dende's God Ki helped Goku go SSBlue but wasn't enough to go Ultra Instinct?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I thought we had far too many discussions regarding this, but. There is simply put, no such thing as a "Saiyan Beyond God" transformation form. Simply put, it's just a fancy title for, "Goku and Vegeta trained to the point where even their base forms are stronger now than how strong Super Saiyan God Goku was back in BoG saga."

 

[TiltedFN]

I thought we had far too many discussions regarding this, but. There is simply put, no such thing as a "Saiyan Beyond God" transformation form. Simply put, it's just a fancy title for, "Goku and Vegeta trained to the point where even their base forms are stronger now than how strong Super Saiyan God Goku was back in BoG saga.

Yeah that's what I've been saying. Saiyan Beyond God doesn't actually exist. It refers to a DBH card that actually means Super Saiyan Blue.
Vegeta was able to train to learn how to access God Ki and Super Saiyan God. And Goku's body adapted from being within God. This is an absolutely consistent narrative decision across the movies, anime, which Toyotaro followed in concept. It was even shown to still be true in the RoF promotional manga.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I thought we had far too many discussions regarding this, but. There is simply put, no such thing as a "Saiyan Beyond God" transformation form. Simply put, it's just a fancy title for, "Goku and Vegeta trained to the point where even their base forms are stronger now than how strong Super Saiyan God Goku was back in BoG saga."

I mean there are two major points from the OP

• The name "Saiyan Beyond God" isn't real
• Goku and Co. should be 2-C at base

The first part is correct, and I don't see anyone disagreeing with Tilted on this point. The second one is the contention that the cast should be default 2-C after the BoG arc in the manga.

 

[TiltedFN]

Citation for this "most refined and pure" claim? Because that came from nowhere. You originally just said they needed God Ki, now they need special refined God Ki?

Frieza claims God Ki is very pure. It's more refined energy. That's literally a part of what God Ki is.

But like, Goku was able to go Blue using the God Ki of a drained Vegeta, a bunch of non-gods, and Dende when he'd been drained to base. And was able to go into MUI when he was given Uub's God Ki, who hasn't trained yet.

So? Goku just needed ENERGY. Goku's body used it to access his God forms.
What kind of argument even is this?
And Uub had latent God Ki from the GSK who literally HELPED Uub channel it and give it to Goku.
You do know UUB has the power right? He's a reincarnation.

Going from Base to God. Dragon Ball Super chapter 22

Jumping from Base to Blue.Chapter 21

Dropping from SSG to base

What are you even claiming anymore?
"Saiyans can use their God forms, see!!!"
Are you trying to say the need to through their transformations ONE BY ONE??? Dude do you hear yourself?
You're throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.

Stating with their strength drained, they can't go Red or Blue.

So what, does God Ki drain first then regular ki? Or is it they're not strong enough to go to these forms? Which one makes more sense? Because I'd need a statement on "God Ki drains faster than normal ki" and not "You need this level of power to go to these forms"

No you don't need anything since all of this is a non argument.
It is completely irrelevant.
Goku and Vegeta can channel God Ki to transform. Simple. They are mutations.
Why are you acting like there are two different pools?

Citation needed on that last claim

Goku literally using both his powers at the same time to channel Super Saiyan Blue. He's using his Super Saiyan transformation on top of his God Ki cultivation to make Blue. That's literally what it is. You visibly see the Super Saiyan energy.
And since you guys are arguing under the assumption that Goku was using SBG against Base Frieza, you need to acknowledge that Goku CAN use regular Super Saiyan if he wants to stack on top of his current power.
Do you know what that means? It's a complete and utter debunk to Saiyan Beyond God ever being a thing.

I believe you believe that.

I 100 percent do.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Frieza claims God Ki is very pure. It's more refined energy. That's literally a part of what God Ki is.

That just says God ki in general is very pure. You made a claim about there being a more/most refined and pure version of it. This is two different claims.

What are you even claiming anymore?
"Saiyans can use their God forms, see!!!"
Are you trying to say the need to through their transformations ONE BY ONE??? Dude do you hear yourself?
You're throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks.

MY DUDE! You said, and I QUOTE YOU! "

There is not a single example of Saiyans using the actual Super Saiyan God transformation in their base forms. Not a single instance whatsoever.

THAT WAS WHAT I WAS RESPONDING TO! Did you forget what you yourself said?

No you don't need anything since all of this is a non argument.
It is completely irrelevant.
Goku and Vegeta can channel God Ki to transform. Simple. They are mutations.
Why are you acting like there are two different pools?

BECAUSE YOU SAID

"Exactly. So Blue is just God Ki + Super Saiyan Saiyans use God Ki to transform into Super Saiyan Gods. That is the entire point." So I'm following that logic, becaused by that logic, if it's reliant on God Ki, then it should go to reason that them dropping out of it means they're drained of God Ki and it's not reliant on power, by your statement. However, that indicates it's two different pools, whereas my "It's related to power level" is just reliant on power levels.

Goku literally using both his powers at the same time to channel Super Saiyan Blue. He's using his Super Saiyan transformation on top of his God Ki cultivation to make Blue. That's literally what it is. You visibly see the Super Saiyan energy.

So he's....turning Super Saiyan while ascending to a higher level of power? Weird, instead of "He's mutating ant tapping into two things at once" it reads more like "He's going super saiyan while having the power of a Super Saiyan God." Like the statements said.

I 100 percent do.

Glad we got THAT part settled.

You know what? I'm done. The emojis and memes and strawmen? I'm out

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean there are two major points from the OP

• The name "Saiyan Beyond God" isn't real
• Goku and Co. should be 2-C at base

The first part is correct, and I don't see anyone disagreeing with Tilted on this point. The second one is the contention that the cast should be default 2-C after the BoG arc in the manga.

Well yeah, was focused on Anime version following suit; and that especially has more than enough upscaling material as early as BoG saga. I'm not as knowledgeable as the manga version as I am the Anime version, though I have seen the movie a long time ago.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Citation for this "most refined and pure" claim? Because that came from nowhere. You originally just said they needed God Ki, now they need special refined God Ki?

But like, Goku was able to go Blue using the God Ki of a drained Vegeta, a bunch of non-gods, and Dende when he'd been drained to base. And was able to go into MUI when he was given Uub's God Ki, who hasn't trained yet.

uub was effectively wished into existence as a force of purity and goodness, dude's clearly not a normal ki user godly or otherwise so I don't see how using him as an example is a great indicator of standard verse mechanics

like clearly how much God ki you have matters just as much as how much you've trained or 'refined' it. uub has a **** ton of ki which was enough when combined with everyone else's ki to get Goku back to full strength.

Going from Base to God. Dragon Ball Super chapter 22

Jumping from Base to Blue.Chapter 21

Dropping from SSG to base

explain how any of these instances disprove the point? you are misunderstanding what tilted said, he said there is no evidence of base saiyans using some mysterious form that gives them the power of the god forms without actually transforming into them, like Saiyan Beyond God is proposed to be, not that 'Goku has never transformed straight from base to God forms'

Stating with their strength drained, they can't go Red or Blue.

So what, does God Ki drain first then regular ki? Or is it they're not strong enough to go to these forms? Which one makes more sense? Because I'd need a statement on "God Ki drains faster than normal ki" and not "You need this level of power to go to these forms"

lmao now you don't. you've created an arbitrary hoop for us to jump through.

god ki and normal ki aren't two different tanks, that's not a thing

'why does this thing I made up not make sense?'

well prolly because you made it up in order to create an artificial checkbox that needs to be fufilled entirely because you are misunderstanding the arguments

Citation needed on that last claim

I believe you believe that.

this isn't a meaningful response

Statement of this "fully refined God Ki" claim, especially when Dende's God Ki helped Goku go SSBlue but wasn't enough to go Ultra Instinct?

why does dende's God ki helping Goku reach SSB disprove dende not having fully defined god ki? especially given it was combined with a whole lot of other's ki, plus vegeta's actually trained God ki.

 

[TiltedFN]

That just says God ki in general is very pure. You made a claim about there being a more/most refined and pure version of it. This is two different claims.

It is specifically talking about power from a destroyer, which is still God Ki.
And what do you think is more refined? God Ki that is still developing? Or God Ki that HAS been developed to the point it causes mutations in Saiyans and is completely incapable of being sensed by non Gods unless you train for it?

MY DUDE! You said, and I QUOTE YOU! "

What does this have to do with anything?
I'm talking about Saiyan Beyond God.
Did you seriously just equate that to "Saiyans going straight into God forms from Base"? This is not a good look dude. Not at all.

THAT WAS WHAT I WAS RESPONDING TO! Did you forget what you yourself said?

Yes I did say that, because we are talking about Saiyan Beyond God. Which is literally God Goku, but in "base".
You don't get the mutation.
You completely lost track of what we are debating and somehow managed to steer the topic into something unrelated. Stay on topic and reread the arguments.
This is rediculous.

BECAUSE YOU SAID

"Exactly. So Blue is just God Ki + Super Saiyan Saiyans use God Ki to transform into Super Saiyan Gods. That is the entire point." So I'm following that logic, becaused by that logic, if it's reliant on God Ki, then it should go to reason that them dropping out of it means they're drained of God Ki and it's not reliant on power, by your statement. However, that indicates it's two different pools, whereas my "It's related to power level" is just reliant on power levels.

Lmao what you're essentially arguing is that God Ki and Regular Ki are two separate pools in Goku and Vegeta's bodies.
Go ahead and prove that for me.
It's a completely unfounded claim that is based on nothing.
Zero statements, zero showings, zero lore, zero validity.
This does not indicate two pools of energy.
When Goku and Vegeta get drained of energy, there is no instance of their God Ki being gone but their regular Ki remaining.
That defeats the entire point of developing their Ki.
Why do you think they transform when they cultivate God Ki to it's fullest extent so they can transform? C'mon now.

So he's....turning Super Saiyan while ascending to a higher level of power? Weird, instead of "He's mutating ant tapping into two things at once" it reads more like "He's going super saiyan while having the power of a Super Saiyan God." Like the statements said.

He's becoming a Super Saiyan at the exact same time he cultivates his God Ki. That is what Super Saiyan Blue is.
He's doing two things at once, but it's still a single pool of Ki.

Glad we got THAT part settled

Yeah its pretty clear to me now that you're just throwing whatever around now.
And what you don't realize is that you still ignored every claim I made pointing out contradictions, but you didn't touch those for obvious reasons.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

That just says God ki in general is very pure. You made a claim about there being a more/most refined and pure version of it. This is two different claims.

not its not. he claimed god ki was pure and refined ki. you threw in the stuff about dende not being a refined god ki user in there as if he's making two contradictory claims

MY DUDE! You said, and I QUOTE YOU! "




THAT WAS WHAT I WAS RESPONDING TO! Did you forget what you yourself said?

BECAUSE YOU SAID

well given how you grossly misunderstood tilted's point about how Goku never uses the god forms power in base like Saiyan beyond God apparently is to 'goku has never gone from base to God forms', you playing the 'erm actually you are the one no undersstanding' card doesn't work

"Exactly. So Blue is just God Ki + Super Saiyan Saiyans use God Ki to transform into Super Saiyan Gods. That is the entire point." So I'm following that logic, becaused by that logic, if it's reliant on God Ki, then it should go to reason that them dropping out of it means they're drained of God Ki and it's not reliant on power, by your statement. However, that indicates it's two different pools, whereas my "It's related to power level" is just reliant on power levels.

that doesn't indicate there are two different pools. Goku doesn't use God ki outside of God forms. like your assertion is hinging on some instant of Goku running specifically out of God ki and having to use normal super Saiyan forms, which has never happened.

So he's....turning Super Saiyan while ascending to a higher level of power? Weird, instead of "He's mutating ant tapping into two things at once" it reads more like "He's going super saiyan while having the power of a Super Saiyan God." Like the statements said.

you're being obtuse. it doesn't need to be spelled out exactly for your liking for it to mean what tilted is arguing it to mean.

Glad we got THAT part settled.

You know what? I'm done. The emojis and memes and strawmen? I'm out

lmfao why do they always act like this

 

[TiltedFN]

Well yeah, was focused on Anime version following suit; and that especially has more than enough upscaling material as early as BoG saga. I'm not as knowledgeable as the manga version as I am the Anime version, though I have seen the movie a long time ago.

Since the scan Damage is using for his entire argument can't even be applied to the movie or anime, the entire argument is basically dead since it's just wrong.
It becomes pure speculation and conjecture.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

In short:

• There is no evidence of Goku using the power of God without transforming. At best one contradictory statement in promo material for the RoF movie, which is contradicted by the BoG movie that precedes it and can be interpreted differently.
• Toriyama's entire point with BoG's story is that Goku reached a new realm of power by becoming a Super Saiyan God, which allows his body to reach a level it couldn't through training alone. This is represented by Goku later fighting Base and Super Saiyan forms at the same level as he was in Super Saiyan God.
• Toyotaro has stated for interviews during the Volume 1 release that he was following Toriyama's plot basis for BoG and he didn't start to actively contribute to the plot writing until after Volume 1
• Toyotaro's own manga has Goku on the verge of defeat declaring he can grow stronger and has characters like Bardock explaining that Saiyans always evolve when they go past their limits in life or death situations.

In other words, in order to argue Goku didn't break his limits by becoming a Super Saiyan God in the manga, just as he does in the movie and anime, you would have to argue that Toyotaro went against Toriyama's own plot outline. Something he and Toriyama both directly contradict. In reality the BoG Manga is just an abbreviation of new things that Toriyama wanted to include (Champa's debut, foreshadowing the Super DBs, the change in location to Bulma's yacht, the universe-threatening shockwaves) to get ahead of the anime in time to do the U6 Saga first. Hence also skipping RoF entirely.

If people truly believe that Toyotaro is going against Toriyama's vision here I would like to see some evidence of that. Like him saying that Goku didn't break his limits from being a Super Saiyan God like in the movie or something along those lines. And if your belief is that Toriyama simply changed his mind from the movie I would have to ask why the anime completely retains it and why the trailer for the Enhanced Edition (stated to be made more faithful to the manga and truer to Toriyama's vision) appears to retain scenes from Goku doing that.

In summation. People here are pretending that the burden of proof is on those trying to prove Goku broke his limits. In reality it's the other way around. The claim he didn't was completely made up with the term 'Beyond God'. Toriyama's vision for what Goku achieves in BoG is quite clear and Toyotaro states he is adhering to Toriyama's story. The default assumption is that Goku's power became God-level just like in the anime and the movie that Toriyama both approved of.

There isn't much more for me to add. If people don't accept it then they don't accept it. Good luck with the rest of the thread, Tilted.

 

[Damage3245]

In other words, in order to argue Goku didn't break his limits by becoming a Super Saiyan God in the manga, just as he does in the movie and anime, you would have to argue that Toyotaro went against Toriyama's own plot outline. In reality the BoG Manga is just an abbreviation of new things that Toriyama wanted to include (Champa's debut, foreshadowing the Super DBs, the change in location to Bulma's yacht, the universe-threatening shockwaves) to get ahead of the anime in time to do the U6 Saga first. Hence also skipping RoF entirely.

If "Toriyama's own plot outline" is exactly the events as they happened in the Battle of Gods movie, then we don't need to argue for it changing. The simple fact is that he did make changes (or Toriyama did, if he's the sole writer for the manga at this point) and those changes are what is in the pages of the manga.

Now, there can be reasons for why this change happened that make sense such as they didn't have enough chapters or pages to work with for a length adaptation, they were pressed for time, or maybe they wanted to rush to get to the new stuff. But the fact remains that it doesn't really matter why an author is forced to make certain changes to their works; all that matters is the end product. If an author intended to write an extended final arc of their manga with several fights in it but had to cut those fights out as they didn't have enough time for it in their serialization, we can't say "It was the author's intention that these fights would have happened if he had time therefore they canonically did happen."

If people truly believe that Toyotaro is going against Toriyama's vision here I would like to see some evidence of that. Like him saying that Goku didn't break his limits from being a Super Saiyan God like in the movie or something along those lines. And if your belief is that Toriyama simply changed his mind from the movie I would have to ask why the anime completely retains it and why the trailer for the Enhanced Edition (stated to be made more faithful to the manga and truer to Toriyama's vision) appears to retain scenes from Goku doing that.

I don't think any of us can make claims about what exactly is going inside of Toriyama's head, or Toyotaro for that matter. At the end of the day we don't need the authors of a work to provide statements clarifying every bit of powerscaling in their work. We can judge the work by itself.

In summation. People here are pretending that the burden of proof is on those trying to prove Goku broke his limits. In reality it's the other way around. The claim he didn't was completely made up with the term 'Beyond God'. Toriyama's vision for what Goku achieves in BoG is quite clear and Toyotaro states he is adhering to Toriyama's story. The default assumption is that Goku's power became God-level just like in the anime and the movie that Toriyama both approved of.

I disagree that the burden of proof has been shifted like this. It is your side that is making the positive claim for Goku; claiming that he reached 2-C in his base form in the manga thanks to his fight with Beerus. It should therefore be on you to prove that he became 2-C; not just make it the default assumption and immune from requiring supporting evidence.

What you're doing is asking the opposition to prove a negative claim. "Prove he didn't become 2-C" in other words. I'm not making a positive claim for Goku's power level at that point in the manga; what I'm saying is that there isn't enough evidence in the manga itself for Goku's rating to reach the level you're proposing that he did.

Toriyama's entire point with BoG's story is that Goku reached a new realm of power by becoming a Super Saiyan God, which allows his body to reach a level it couldn't through training alone. This is represented by Goku later fighting Base and Super Saiyan forms at the same level as he was in Super Saiyan God.

Sure, that's great for the movie which is why my thread was never about changing the movie version of the character's rating. But the movie isn't canon to the manga. If it was, then why would Goku solely fight Beerus as a Super Saiyan God instead of fighting him in base + Super Saiyan like the movie?

Toyotaro has stated for interviews during the Volume 1 release that he was following Toriyama's plot basis for BoG and he didn't start to actively contribute to the plot writing until after Volume 1

Do we have a behind-the-scenes outline of Toriyama's plot? We don't know that Toriyama just handed him a script to Battle of Gods and said "Turn this into 4 chapters". If he provided outlines / storyboards of the chapters to Toyataro, and he deliberately didn't include a scene of Goku absorbing SSG or fighting Beerus in his base state... Then we would have no reason to assume he wished for that to occur in the manga itself.

Toyotaro's own manga has Goku on the verge of defeat declaring he can grow stronger and has characters like Bardock explaining that Saiyans always evolve when they go past their limits in life or death situations.

Goku declaring he can be grow stronger =/= Goku declaring his base form is just as powerful as he is now as a Super Saiyan God.

Saiyans always evolving and going past their limits doesn't prove that Goku's base form become 2-C in that scene.

Since the scan Damage is using for his entire argument can't even be applied to the movie or anime, the entire argument is basically dead since it's just wrong.
It becomes pure speculation and conjecture.

The scan I used isn't the argument. That scan just provides an explanation for the situation. The argument is that the movie and manga are different canons; you can't use movie-exclusive material from Battle of Gods to argue for something that didn't happen in the manga version of Battle of Gods. That's the core of my argument.

To me, your argument is like saying "The Dragon Ball Z anime is canon to the Dragon Ball GT anime. The Dragon Ball Z anime is also canon to the Dragon Ball Super anime. Therefore the Dragon Ball Super anime is canon to Dragon Ball GT."

This is why I'm saying it doesn't matter that the Resurrection F is sequel to the Battle of Gods movie, and it's sequel to the first 4 chapters of the DBS manga. Both canons are still separate. What happens in one doesn't override the other.

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with the OP

 

[TiltedFN]

The scan I used isn't the argument.

Uh yes, it quite literally is Damage.
Your entire argument hinges on the fact that the Saiyans will just turn Blue if they use Super Saiyan while in 'Beyond God'.
And that evidently doesn't happen.
Actually, I should really be saying that your interpretation of that scan is wrong..since it just is.

That scan just provides an explanation for the situation.

What situation? Goku fighting Frieza? Goku fighting at the level of a God?

The argument is that the movie and manga are different canons; you can't use movie-exclusive material from Battle of Gods to argue for something that didn't happen in the manga version of Battle of Gods.

Different continuities, same narrative outline for Goku's strength which Toyotaro literally showed in his promotional RoF manga.
Toyotaro didn't start influencing the story until later on. You can't just ignore what is depicted on a page in place of something that doesn't exist.

That's the core of my argument.

No, it really isn't. You know why?
Because without your scan you use for the movie, Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist, and therefore, you can't actually argue anything else BUT Goku being 2-C in base.
Even if I steelman your argument and ONLY use RoF and the promotional RoF manga by Toyotaro, your argument still doesn't hold up.
Goku is still capable of turning Super Saiyan dude. Which means your argument just ends there about Saiyans turning Blue automatically if they use Super Saiyan in 'Beyond God'.
In battle of gods it doesn't hold up either. Goku uses Super Saiyan.
It doesn't hold up in either adaptations of the anime.
So what this means is that Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist and you were completely misinterpreting the scan.
All it means is that their base states got heightened to that of a God, which is 2-C. And we know this is the case since Goku adapted to the power.
So when Goku goes to attack Whis, SBG gets thrown away, and all we're left with is an example in 4K of Goku's base being in those God level ranges of power.
Like I said, you can't cling to that scan Damage. It doesn't help you.
You can't just use it and use some irrelevant argument to somehow prove why your interpretation of the scan doesn't happen when we have an adaptation AFTER the movie release in the anime where it STILL didn't happen. So what will it be?

 

[TiltedFN]

Well yeah, was focused on Anime version following suit; and that especially has more than enough upscaling material as early as BoG saga. I'm not as knowledgeable as the manga version as I am the Anime version, though I have seen the movie a long time ago.

Can we know your overall thoughts on the CRT?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

snip

Your statement boils down to "I don't think Toriyama's plot basis is present in the manga." How do I know this? Because we see it in the BoG Movie and the DBS Anime. Both of which Toriyama oversaw and approved of.

You are claiming the burden is on other people when you're the one who originally made the (false) claim in the first place with your own claims in the revision that removed 2-C scaling. You are effectively arguing that Toyotaro and Toriyama are liars that contradict their own works. With zero evidence to demonstrate that coherently. It's wildly inconsistent and, frankly, dishonest. Trying to conflate claiming plot elements Toriyama directly wrote are equivalent to arguing Super is canon to GT is completely laughable.

• Is it stated in the manga that Saiyans break their limits and grow stronger? Yes.
• Did Goku break his limits in God and say he was growing stronger? Yes.
• Does Toyotaro's promotional manga depict Goku attacking with the power of Super Saiyan God? Yes.
• Does Beyond God exist? No.
• Did Toyotaro state the manga follows Toriyama's plot basis? Yes.
• Is Toriyama's plot basis from the BoG movie? Yes.
• Is the DBS Anime a canon continuation of the original manga and something that follows Toriyama's plot basis? Yes.
• Was it stated that Toyotaro did not contribute any significant changes in Volume 1? Yes.
• Is the Resurrection of F movie, which directly follows the events of the Battle of Gods movie, canon to the DBS Manga? Yes.
• Is it Toriyama's storyline that Goku breaks his limits, enters a new domain of power and his Base form is elevated to God-level thanks to the battle against Beerus? Yes.

You cannot deny these obvious facts. The simple truth that is being presented. You constructed a narrative of this 'Beyond God' power up and that narrative was completely false. And everything surrounding Battle of Gods makes it clear what the authorial intent was by Akira Toriyama and that Toyotaro is faithfully adhering to that authorial intent.

I sincerely doubt you will actually do anything to address anything I have said. Because I know you have zero evidence, zero arguments and zero basis for any of your claims. So I'll avoid clogging this CRT up any further.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Ngl the more this goes on the more opposition makes less sense. Gonna have to agree with the CRT.

 

[StarShooter80]

Agree for both OP’s and Cryo’s counterpoints

 

[Damage3245]

Is it stated in the manga that Saiyans break their limits and grow stronger? Yes.

Never in contention by me.

Did Goku break his limits in God and say he was growing stronger? Yes.

This part is in contention when it comes to the manga. Goku says that he can get stronger than this. It's not a statement of "My base form is as strong as I am now."

Does Toyotaro's promotional manga depict Goku attacking with the power of Super Saiyan God? Yes.
Does Beyond God exist? No.

We have different interpretations of what that means. To me, it shows Goku tapping into the power of a Super Saiyan God without transforming. To you, it is symbolic of Goku reaching his prior level of power that he showed with Super Saiyan God. As to whether it "exists", the promotional material explicitely states that Goku and Vegeta can "gain control of god-like power without changing form". What does "without changing form signify to you?

Did Toyotaro state the manga follows Toriyama's plot basis? Yes.
Is the DBS Anime a canon continuation of the original manga and something that follows Toriyama's plot basis? Yes.
Was it stated that Toyotaro did not contribute any significant changes in Volume 1? Yes.

Sure; but that doesn't prevent Toriyama making changes for the manga version.

Is the Resurrection of F movie, which directly follows the events of the Battle of Gods movie, canon to the DBS Manga? Yes.

That's why we use the Resurrection F movie for the manga. We don't use Battle of Gods for the manga.

Is it Toriyama's storyline that Goku breaks his limits, enters a new domain of power and his Base form is elevated to God-level thanks to the battle against Beerus? Yes.

Not in the manga it isn't.

You cannot deny these obvious facts. The simple truth that is being presented. You constructed a narrative of this 'Beyond God' power up and that narrative was completely false. And everything surrounding Battle of Gods makes it clear what the authorial intent was by Akira Toriyama and that Toyotaro is faithfully adhering to that authorial intent.

I sincerely doubt you will actually do anything to address anything I have said. Because I know you have zero evidence, zero arguments and zero basis for any of your claims. So I'll avoid clogging this CRT up any further.

I don't think it is "dishonest" to evaluate the manga using the manga's version of events. It is not a false narrative that I am constructing; I am evaluating how powerful the characters are based on their feats and statements within the manga continuity. The Battle of Gods movie is not within the manga continuity, therefore I don't think it should be used. That's all there is to it.

 

[TiltedFN]

We have different interpretations of what that means. To me, it shows Goku tapping into the power of a Super Saiyan God without transforming. To you, it is symbolic of Goku reaching his prior level of power that he showed with Super Saiyan God. As to whether it "exists", the promotional material explicitely states that Goku and Vegeta can "gain control of god-like power without changing form". What does "without changing form signify to you?

Damage. I need you to answer honestly.
Why didn't Goku transform into Super Saiyan Blue in Battle of Gods movie or anime? In either continuity?
If you claim they will transform into Blue instantly while using Saiyan Beyond God, why can Goku still use Super Saiyan in RoF?
Do you seriously not realize this absolutely destroys your interpretation of the scan? I need your answer.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage. I need you to answer honestly.
Why didn't Goku transform into Super Saiyan Blue in Battle of Gods movie or anime? In either continuity?

Battle of Gods came out years before Resurrection F and the manga. It is completely possible that in the time since then that the authors could've had new ideas or or made changes in the time since its original release. Ultimately it doesn't matter what happens in other continuities; the manga stands alone as its own canon.

If you claim they will transform into Blue instantly while using Saiyan Beyond God, why can Goku still use Super Saiyan in RoF?

Goku and Vegeta are not permanently in the "Saiyan Beyond God" state is the answer to that. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan AKA Super Saiyan Blue is stated in the movie and in the promotional material to be a Saiyan using the Super Saiyan transformation with the power of Super Saiyan God. The characters are not using Super Saiyan God's power all of the time, so it is still possible for them to enter the lower Super Saiyan transformations.

Do you think the promotional material is lying when it says they can control god-like power without changing form?

 

[Damage3245]

I just want to note as well that the manga showcases Vegeta with the aura of a Super Saiyan God without transforming during his sparring match with Goku. Exactly the same color using by Goku when he unlocked Super Saiyan God.

This is showcasing that the concept exists in the manga beyond just the promotional material for Resurrection F. It demonstrates what was stated, of them using god-like power without transforming themselves.

 

[TiltedFN]

Battle of Gods came out years before Resurrection F and the manga.

That isn't an argument damage.
That isn't something you are able to prove so it becomes pure conjecture on your part.
And the anime version of RoF came AFTER that and Goku still says he can go Super Saiyan.
You absolutely need to explain why Goku can go Super Saiyan. If not, then your argument is just baseless right?

It is completely possible that in the time since then that the authors could've had new ideas or or made changes in the time since its original release.

Okay prove that then.
What new ideas did they have? What changes did they make? Why is it not executed in the movie it's apparently introduced in?
Better yet, why doesn't it show up in any continuity? Explain that.

Ultimately it doesn't matter what happens in other continuities; the manga stands alone as its own canon.

No it absolutely does matter.
Damage, if you can't prove this is something that actually happens on screen or through some statement in the actual work, then your interpretation is absolutely invalid and can't be used for the scan.
And if it can't be used, there's no argument.
Why is there no mention of this Beyond God in the actual work? Why can Goku use Super Saiyan if he's supposedly in this Saiyan Beyond God state?
I need reasons.

Goku and Vegeta are not permanently in the "Saiyan Beyond God" state is the answer to that.

Why not? And hold on a second, aren't YOU the one who supports them using Saiyan Beyond God against Frieza? Are you back peddling on that now?
If you are then you'll need to explain a couple things for me.
Why is it the more likely scenario that when Goku talks about not needing to resort to Super Saiyan meaning if he did, he'd turn off Saiyan Beyond God for whatever stupid reason if he wasn't strong enough, weaken himself by 160,000x or infinitely, and then go into Super Saiyan just to receive a 50x boost?
Or is Goku actually saying he doesn't need to resort to Super Saiyan since he's strong enough to handle Frieza in his current form, which implies if he wasn't, he can STACK it which Frieza knows; which is the better interpretation here? Answer please.
If it's the former, you need to prove that.

And also, if you argue they DIDN'T use Saiyan Beyond God against Frieza, when do they actually use it? You need to answer me this.
If you can't show me where they used it, that means it hasn't been used ONCE yet I'm supposed to believe this state actually exist? Where's the proof Damage?
So yeah Imma need your evidence.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan AKA Super Saiyan Blue is stated in the movie and in the promotional material to be a Saiyan using the Super Saiyan transformation with the power of Super Saiyan God.

So Super Saiyan + God Ki which to them is the power of a actual Super Saiyan God. We know this already.
This was irrelevant, yeah?

The characters are not using Super Saiyan God's power all of the time, so it is still possible for them to enter the lower Super Saiyan transformations.

Prove that damage. By your own admission, Goku absolutely should have turned Blue in BoG and we wouldn't have a verbatim statement of Goku being able to use Super Saiyan if he needed WHILE he was using the Saiyan Beyond God. Your argument crumbles under you. Answer the question.

Do you think the promotional material is lying when it says they can control god-like power without changing form?

The problem is that you're completely misinterpreting it.
You're claiming that this is a contradiction for 2-C despite us NEVER seeing this on screen ever, nor do we have any mention of this in the actual material.
This is your burden to prove with sound evidence. Where does it happen?

 

[Damage3245]

And also, if you argue they DIDN'T use Saiyan Beyond God against Frieza, when do they actually use it? You need to answer me this.
If you can't show me where they used it, that means it hasn't been used ONCE yet I'm supposed to believe this state actually exist? Where's the proof Damage?
So yeah Imma need your evidence.

Check my post above:

I just want to note as well that the manga showcases Vegeta with the aura of a Super Saiyan God without transforming during his sparring match with Goku. Exactly the same color using by Goku when he unlocked Super Saiyan God.

This is showcasing that the concept exists in the manga beyond just the promotional material for Resurrection F. It demonstrates what was stated, of them using god-like power without transforming themselves.

Got to take a break from the thread for a while so can't respond to the rest yet.

 

[TiltedFN]

I just want to note as well that the manga showcases Vegeta with the aura of a Super Saiyan God without transforming during his sparring match with Goku. Exactly the same color using by Goku when he unlocked Super Saiyan God.

This isn't evidence. Colors have been messed up in the DBS manga before. Vegeta also didn't have that while training with Whis in the movie, nor did Goku have that in the movie when facing Frieza, so it's not consistent and never has been.
And Like I said, they can still transform into Super Saiyan while in SBG using your logic. Why?

EDIT: Oh, might I add that this DIRECTLY goes against the point of Whis training? They are supposed to be fighting in BASE without transforming.
If they are using Super Saiyan God under the assumption that SBG actually exist, that violates the rules of the training. It's clearly a colorist mistake dude.

This is showcasing that the concept exists in the manga beyond just the promotional material for Resurrection F. It demonstrates what was stated, of them using god-like power without transforming themselves.

It doesn't exist in the manga. No mention of it ever, no explanation why it's never used again under the assumption that it ever WAS a thing.
You have no answer of why they can turn Super Saiyan either.
In battle of gods Goku was fighting Beerus and making him try hard than he was, where was Blue?

You can't ignore everything that proves you wrong.

 

[Damage3245]

his isn't evidence. Colors have been messed up in the DBS manga before. Vegeta also didn't have that while training with Whis in the movie, nor did Goku have that in the movie when facing Frieza, so it's not consistent and never has been.
And Like I said, they can still transform into Super Saiyan while in SBG using your logic. Why?

Where is the indication that the colors are messed up here?

And yeah, looking for perfect consistency between the movies and the manga when they're different continuities with different production teams... I'm not surprised that there's inconsistencies somewhere.

There is no issue in my argument with them being able to use regular Super Saiyan. I've never claimed they're incapable of using regular Super Saiyan when they want to.

It doesn't exist in the manga. No mention of it ever, no explanation why it's never used again under the assumption that it ever WAS a thing.
You have no answer of why they can turn Super Saiyan either.
In battle of gods Goku was fighting Beerus and making him try hard than he was, where was Blue?

You can't ignore everything that proves you wrong.

Showing and not telling is a thing. Not everything is always spelt out to us verbatim.

And for the last time, I don't care what happened in Battle of Gods. My position as I've made it clear is that it is non-canon to the manga. Bringing up something in Battle of Gods to use a counter-argument for the manga is irrelevant to me.

 

[TiltedFN]

Where is the indication that the colors are messed up here?

Because the colors for the manga have been messed up multiple times, so it isn't out of the question.
Not to mention, Goku didn't have a red aura in the movie. So you'd have to admit that the first time this was shown, under YOUR assumption, the manga wouldn't be consistent with this right?

And yeah, looking for perfect consistency between the movies and the manga when they're different continuities with different production teams... I'm not surprised that there's inconsistencies somewhere.

Uh Damage, you can't just admit there are inconsistencies with YOUR argument and just be like "yep, it happens".
No. You have to prove your interpretation makes sense.
The biggest crutch of your argument doesn't even happen anywhere, so why does it exist?

There is no issue in my argument with them being able to use regular Super Saiyan. I've never claimed they're incapable of using regular Super Saiyan when they want to.

Uh no there really is.
Why didn't Goku turn Blue in battle of Gods or resurrection F when he was supposedly fighting in Saiyan Beyond God?
Oh okay, so if you claim they aren't incapable of using Super Saiyan , why can they explicitly use it while fighting in Saiyan Beyond God?
Don't run Damage, address the argument:

Why not? And hold on a second, aren't YOU the one who supports them using Saiyan Beyond God against Frieza? Are you back peddling on that now?
If you are then you'll need to explain a couple things for me.
Why is it the more likely scenario that when Goku talks about not needing to resort to Super Saiyan meaning if he did, he'd turn off Saiyan Beyond God for whatever stupid reason if he wasn't strong enough, weaken himself by 160,000x or infinitely, and then go into Super Saiyan just to receive a 50x boost?
Or is Goku actually saying he doesn't need to resort to Super Saiyan since he's strong enough to handle Frieza in his current form, which implies if he wasn't, he can STACK it which Frieza knows; which is the better interpretation here? Answer please.
If it's the former, you need to prove that.

And also, if you argue they DIDN'T use Saiyan Beyond God against Frieza, when do they actually use it? You need to answer me this.
If you can't show me where they used it, that means it hasn't been used ONCE yet I'm supposed to believe this state actually exist? Where's the proof Damage?
So yeah Imma need your evidence.

This all needs to be answered with sound evidence.
If you can't, then your interpretation doesn't hold up, nor does your conclusion.

Showing and not telling is a thing. Not everything is always spelt out to us verbatim.

Uh, how about us not having ANY statement in the original manga?
That isn't a case of showing and not telling, this is a case of this not being present at all.
Why does it exist?

And for the last time, I don't care what happened in Battle of Gods.

You really should. Your entire argument depends on it.
Why can Goku using Super Saiyan while fighting Beerus?

My position as I've made it clear is that it is non-canon to the manga. Bringing up something in Battle of Gods to use a counter-argument for the manga is irrelevant to me.

I don't care.
By using that scan that refers to the MOVIE which is a sequel to Battle of Gods, it doesn't hold up at all.
It holds up absolutely nowhere.
The RoF manga doesn't even support it.
Don't forget to answer every single hole and contradiction I've laid out for you while you're at it.
So again, why does this exist?