Super Beyond God removal

[TiltedFN]

Hello all.

This thread will aim to remove the “form” known as ‘Saiyan Beyond God’. This thread was made a while back that removed the form and made it so Goku would essentially be using Super Saiyan God in his Base form instead of transforming. There are multiple things wrong with this line of reasoning which I’ll go over now.

First of all, this promotional material guide for the RoF movie is a big reason why this is accepted in the first place. The issue with this, is that this is referencing the actual movie, which is a sequel to the Battle of Gods movie. It was already stated in the movie and by Toriyama in an interview that Goku did indeed absorb the power of Super Saiyan God into his body, not the actual God Ki. It’s the entire reason why Goku was able to keep up in Base, and in Super Saiyan during the fight with Beerus.

So I have absolutely no idea why this is being to say “God in Base” doesn’t exist for the manga, while this actively being a sequel to the film in which he literally did absorb it in base. It doesn’t make a lick of sense even IF this scan were to be true. Why use promotional movie guides but not the actual accepted canon lore by the author that preceded it? With that in mind, the entire concept of Saiyan Beyond God no longer makes any sense; the notion that Goku didn’t actually absorb the power of a God into his base form is way weaker than it was before without this scan.

All it really says is that Saiyans have the potential to access God-like powers without transforming. Is this not what Goku did in the Battle of Gods movie? Is this not what Vegeta did just by training for it? When those Saiyans transform into Super Saiyans and add the God Ki, they become Super Saiyan Blue. It’s not saying they literally can’t transform into Super Saiyan anymore. Otherwise, why didn’t Goku go Blue in the Battle of Gods movie? This scan is being taken out of context heavily and ignoring the in and out of universe lore. Unless you think Goku just wasn’t using Saiyan Beyond God in the BoG movie? If so, that would have to be proven, which it really can’t be. So you’d have to concede that this scan is being misread, and/or not even consistent with itself under your own logic.

• I should also note that the term “Saiyan Beyond God” originates from a Dragon Ball Heroes game card that actually refers to Super Saiyan Blue and not some weird Super Saiyan God state that they use without changing their appearance. This was prior to the movie's release as well, which is why it doesn’t show Super Saiyan Blue and basically uses the Base state as a placeholder until later on. So the term doesn’t actually exist in Canon, it never did. It’s something that was forced into being a canon state due to misinformation and most not knowing where the term even originated from. So it’s obviously completely invalid along with the promotional material in terms of arguing that Saiyan Beyond God exists.

In the promotional manga for RoF, it’s literally shown Goku attacking with the power of a Super Saiyan God. Not actual God Ki, but just the power he absorbed from the previous arc. Weirdly enough, this was used as some kind of proof that Saiyan Beyond God exists? I’m not sure why, but it’s actually quite the opposite. Not only does it line up with the movies, but its symbolic representation shows us how strong Goku has gotten. So much so, that his regular level is at the power of a God. We also know for a fact that Saiyan Beyond God doesn’t exist since up until the ToP at least, Goku can’t sense God Ki without being a God himself. That’s the reason why Goku couldn’t sense Toppo or the other Gods in that area. Saying something like “He wasn’t using Saiyan Beyond God” is not something that you can actually prove. It's a complete and utter headcanon that has its own other set of problems which I’ll get into in a moment.

Onto Narrative issues. I need to take a moment here and really put into perspective how little sense Saiyan Beyond God really makes. Why in the world would Goku transform into Super Saiyan God when he could just use the power in his base form without transforming? He would save so much stamina while being able to fight at the level of a God. There is literally no reason why Goku would also stop using this form at any point in place of using the actual transformation. There is no narrative or logical reason for this to actually be the case. It also makes it confusing and ratty since you can just arbitrarily decide if he’s using Saiyan Beyond God or not at any point which messes up the scaling significantly.

Examples such as SS2 Trunks making Goku transform into God form being some kind of defeater for God power in base. There is no reason why Trunks can’t get stronger. I mean it’s literally stated that he did and he’s been training. Trunks is a hybrid Saiyan who hasn’t actually stopped training. He can be God level without actually matching Goku in his actual God form who has also gotten stronger. It’s a non argument.

Even with using the manga’s version of Battle of Gods, the argument still stands since in the next arc, it’s shown Goku does have the power of a Super Saiyan God in his base state, and is internally consistent with the lore and statements from Toriyama. It’s also the same in the anime which Toriyama himself wanted to adapt from the movies. There are no actual inconsistencies here besides just incredulity and nitpicking statements such as Trunks being “So much better than Gohan” way back then. These aren’t arguments. Goku simply compliments Trunks' strength, he’s obviously way stronger. And then Trunks goes on to show an even greater power than before. Mind you, this is after he's fought Black for a year iirc, who would be a God level fighter under this change anyways.

As a follow up for Toriyama wanting to adapt everything into the anime, it’s also quite literally the same. Battle of Gods where Goku fights Beerus in Super Saiyan after absorbing the God power, and then going on to fight Frieza and Frost in base and Super Saiyan after this. It’s all very consistent between the two without relying on misinterpretations of scans, incredulity, and just straight up misinformation in where certain terms come from that are legitimately used for scaling when they absolutely shouldn’t be. All those versions of the characters are 2-C as a result Goku absorbs the power of a God into base and that just becomes his new limit breaking power that upscales other characters.

To expand even more on this, it’s stated that Toyotaro has followed Toriyama’s plot as a basis since chapter 1 and didn’t have that much involvement with it until later. Toyotaro obviously didn’t have enough space to expand on the fight against Beerus and show off Goku absorbing the power of a God and fighting Beerus in Super Saiyan. But the concept still actually exists and exists in RoF since it’s basically 1:1 with the movie, with direct proof that Goku’s base is just God level now. Toyotaro didn’t even adapt the RoF promotional material in the actual manga itself, it’s a separate thing which speaks volumes on how rushed it was and that he didn’t have time. Regardless, it still follows the same plotline in terms of narrative, which would naturally include Goku breaking into a new world of power and absorbing that new power into himself to reach new heights. It’s consistent with the movies, the anime, and the manga which is supposed to follow Toriyama’s narrative plotline. I’m gonna be honest, there is absolutely no reason not to include it in place of a form that doesn’t actually exist.

Power creep exists all throughout Dragon Ball. It’s been a thing since forever. There’s this notion that this will “fix” the scaling when there is nothing to be fixed. This is all intentional. There is no reason Goku wouldn’t be using SBG in the manga against Frost, there is absolutely no reason Piccolo can’t be on the level of Base Goku when Piccolo is someone who doesn’t slack off on training. Hell, going by the “Piccolo” didn’t train or have any statements of getting stronger nonsense, why don’t we just apply that same logic to Piccolo being relative to Super Saiyan Goku post 3 year time skip training who was already able to fight Kid Buu and likely win based off the image training in the beginning? Fact is, Piccolo DID get stronger either way, even without a statement. This doesn’t suddenly become invalid just because it scales him higher. It’s consistent.

Goku and Frost are going pretty relative in the manga with Goku in Super Saiyan. This would be a logically stronger Goku after 3 years of training. Base Goku was depicted as fighting Frieza as well in the RoF promotional manga as well, so Frost would just be stronger than Frieza or at least relative. Above all else, it just adds consistency, since again, you can’t prove when Goku does or doesn’t use it. So it’s more consistent that Goku would be using it rather than not since there’s a precedent for it. What there isn't a precedent for is Goku just not using it, or there being a moment/statement that depicts Goku just suddenly using it now when he wasn't before. Just straight up doesn’t exist.

So with this, these are the characters that need to change:

• Botamo
• Goku Black
• Future Trunks
• Goku
• Vegeta
• Piccolo
• Cabba
• Magetta
• Frost
• Zamasu

These characters that had their 4-B rating before this would be removed and would regain their 2-C rating.
The scaling chain will have to be updated accordingly.

Agree with SBG and 2-C: DarkDragonMedeus, Vietthai96 (Solid or Likely), Qawsedf (Likely), Damage3245 (Likely), Nierre (Likely), LephyrTheRevanchist (SBG Removal)

Neutral:

Disagree:

 

[Qawsedf234]

Having read @Damage3245 's post and your post I honestly still see Damage's points as the more valid point.

I mean nothing you provided can dismiss Whis explicitly stating this is a transformation that Goku has to access and not his base form.

So list me as disagreeing. You'd have to show base Goku scaling to a 2-C entity for there to even be a discussion in my view.

 

[Damage3245]

I still agree with my own thread on the topic, so I disagree with this OP.

 

[TiltedFN]

Having read @Damage3245 's post and your post I honestly still see Damage's points as the more valid point.

I mean nothing you provided can dismiss Whis explicitly stating this is a transformation that Goku has to access and not his base form.

So list me as disagreeing. You'd have to show base Goku scaling to a 2-C entity for there to even be a discussion in my view.

I don't get what you mean. Hes just listing Super Saiyan God as a transformation he has access to. Not Saiyan Beyond God.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I still agree with my own thread on the topic, so I disagree with this OP.

Yeah nah I'm not accepting that. Address the OP.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't get what you mean. Hes just listing Super Saiyan God as a transformation he has access to. Not Saiyan Beyond God.

You're arguing that he absorbed a portion of SSG into his base form, so Goku like his anime counter part should default to 2-C and have a higher scaling chain afterwards. I don't see anything provided in your opening that directly counters Damage's original post.

I do agree with you that Piccolo and Trunks can be stronger than what Damage was implying, but I'm not seeing 2-C base forms for everyone here.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

You're arguing that he absorbed a portion of SSG into his base form, so Goku like his anime counter part should default to 2-C and have a higher scaling chain afterwards. I don't see anything provided in your opening that directly counters Damage's original post.

I do agree with you that Piccolo and Trunks can be stronger than what Damage was implying, but I'm not seeing 2-C base forms for everyone here.

He's arguing that Saiyan Beyond God doesn't even exist. You can see this by reading through the OP. the term 'Beyond God' is derived from a DBH card which was referencing SSGSS prior to the RoF movie's release and the 'Godlike Saiyan' statement is from a promo guide for the RoF movie, which is a sequel to the BoG movie where Goku explicitly absorbed God's power into base.

The evidence for Goku absorbing God into base in the manga is that Toyotaro states multiple times he is following Toriyama's plot with Toriyama's oversight and that the RoF Promo Manga that Toyotaro drew depicts Base Goku with God Goku's image, indicating he is fighting with the power level of Super Saiyan God.

There is literally zero proof that SBG or 'Godlike Saiyan' is even a thing that exists as a distinct form or power up. It's made up. And Toriyama's plot is Goku adapting to God's power in his mortal forms, as seen in the BoG movie.

Again, this is all outlined in the OP.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah nah I'm not accepting that. Address the OP.

I'll be sure to, but the OP doesn't address every argument that I used to get that scaling implemented. They gloss over some of it as "nitpicking and incredulity". I don't see how I can convince someone that I'm not "nitpicking" something.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I still agree with my own thread on the topic, so I disagree with this OP.

I'm sorry but this really doesn't look right out of context

 

[TiltedFN]

I'll be sure to, but the OP doesn't address every argument that I used to get that scaling implemented. They gloss over some of it as "nitpicking and incredulity". I don't see how I can convince someone that I'm not "nitpicking" something.

What argument did I not address? I explained why it's extremely flawed multiple times and why. It's not glossing over everything. You're using a state that doesn't actually exist.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm sorry but this really doesn't look right out of context

Would it make any difference if somebody else had posted the thread and I said, "X's thread looks more right on this topic"?

In the end, it doesn't matter either way.

 

[TiltedFN]

You're arguing that he absorbed a portion of SSG into his base form, so Goku like his anime counter part should default to 2-C and have a higher scaling chain afterwards. I don't see anything provided in your opening that directly counters Damage's original post.

Okay which point specifically? Damage used a scan that references the actual RoF movie which is a sequel to the BoG movie where Goku absorbs the power of a God into his base form. That was the actual intent of it. I also explained how the same outline and plot would be followed by Toyotaro but since it was promotional, he didn't have enough space to depict it, but it evidently is the same post BoG where we are shown an image that symbolically depicts Goku fighting with the power of a God in his normal form. That doesn't mean Saiyan Beyond God exist.

 

[Damage3245]

What argument did I not address? I explained why it's extremely flawed multiple times and why. It's not glossing over everything. You're using a state that doesn't actually exist.

I don't think you addressed this part where Goku makes it clear when sparring with Toppo that Super Saiyan God is well beyond his previous levels and the other Gods acknowledge him as using God power:

6) In Goku's battle with Toppo prior to the Tournament of Power, we get one of the clearest displays in my view that there is a huge difference in power between Goku as he is normally and Goku when he is tapping into "God-like power". He goes through his conventional forms of Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 - however when he announces that he is going to use Super Saiyan God, he states that he'll be on at an "entirely different level". His power catches the attention of several Gods of Destruction and it is only at this point that it is commented on that the battle is "at the level of [the Gods of Destruction]". If base Goku was Low Multiverse level and capable of the same feats as the Gods of Destruction... this statement wouldn't make a lot of sense. It is only when he is explicitly using God power that he has reached the threshold of the Gods of Destruction. This should point to a clear division in power between Goku's earlier forms and his SSJ God and SSJ Blue forms.

If Goku was always as powerful as a Super Saiyan God in base when he says this, then it wouldn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Intresting

 

[TiltedFN]

I don't think you addressed this part where Goku makes it clear when sparring with Toppo that Super Saiyan God is well beyond his previous levels and the other Gods acknowledge him as using God power:

Uh maybe because that's obvious? When Goku transforms into Super Saiyan God, of course it would be well beyond his previous levels. It also increases in strength the stronger he gets. That's how Dragon Ball forms work dude.

If Goku were always as powerful as a Super Saiyan God in base when he says this, then it wouldn't make a lot of sense.

I'm not saying that Goku is always going to be as powerful as his current Super Saiyan God stacked upon his current power in base.
That's a completely separate argument.
I'm saying at the beginning, Goku absorbed that current God power in base and became 2-C IN Base. So his Base will always be that level now going forward.
I think you completely misunderstood the point.

 

[Damage3245]

Uh maybe because that's obvious? When Goku transforms into Super Saiyan God, of course it would be well beyond his previous levels. It also increases in strength the stronger he gets. That's how Dragon Ball forms work dude.

I'm not saying that Goku is always going to be as powerful as his current Super Saiyan God stacked upon his current power in base.
That's a completely separate argument.
I'm saying at the beginning, Goku absorbed that current God power in base and became 2-C IN Base. So his Base will always be that level now going forward.
I think you completely misunderstood the point.

Well, the point is that we completely disagree with each other on Goku's level of power. So I'm not surprised we don't see it the same way.

 

[TiltedFN]

Well, the point is that we completely disagree with each other on Goku's level of power. So I'm not surprised we don't see it the same way.

And why exactly?
You're misunderstanding how transformations are supposed to work and making a completely separate argument.

 

[Damage3245]

And why exactly?
You're misunderstanding how transformations are supposed to work and making a completely separate argument.

At the end of the day, Goku isn't shown to "absorb the power of Super Saiyan God" in the manga's version of events which is the most important thing. There is no reason in the manga why Goku would be at that level of power in his base form from then on, and multiple reasons showcasing why using "God-like power" is a significant thing well beyond Goku's normal abilities which crops up multiple times in the manga.

 

[Qawsedf234]

He's arguing that Saiyan Beyond God doesn't even exist

The form doesn't exist, its from a tie-in promotion with DBH which Tilted also mentions. It's why I didn't use the form name either but said "absorbed a portion of SSG into his base form". Damage using the form as a name stand in ultimately doesn't change that I don't think that Goku has a 2-C base state in the manga during this section of the story.

The evidence for Goku absorbing God into base in the manga is that Toyotaro states multiple times he is following Toriyama's plot with Toriyama's oversight and that the RoF Promo Manga that Toyotaro drew depicts Base Goku with God Goku's image, indicating he is fighting with the power level of Super Saiyan God.

If he absorbed God as a state then Whis wouldn't give it as a completely seperate transformation and it wouldn't be shown as a separation of power.

Would it make any difference if somebody else had posted the thread and I said, "X's thread looks more right on this topic"?

To them no, but one of the points of a topic is giving an argument for third parties or people on the fence. The point isn't to necessarily get Tilted on your side, but to provide a well structured argument so people can compare points to so they can weigh in on this proposal fairly.

Saying no and dipping out is easier for you, but it means that people unfamiliar with the topic will see that Tilted took the time to post something and you basically went "Nah" and dipped.

 

[Damage3245]

To them no, but one of the points of a topic is giving an argument for third parties or people on the fence. The point isn't to necessarily get Tilted on your side, but to provide a well structured argument so people can compare points to so they can this proposal fairly.

Saying no and dipping out is easier for you, but it means that people unfamiliar with the topic will see that Tilted took the time to post something and you basically went "Nah" and dipped.

Fair point.

I'll work on posting a proper counter-argument for other people to evaluate, when I get the time.

 

[TiltedFN]

At the end of the day, Goku isn't shown to "absorb the power of Super Saiyan God" in the manga's version of events which is the most important thing.

Why I already addressed. Toyotaro followed Toriyama's plotline so post BOG Goku would already have reached that height.
In the promotional RoF manga Toyotaro did, it depicts Goku attacking with the power of a God, showing us that his power just IS at that level now.

There is no reason in the manga why Goku would be at that level of power in his base form from then on

What's the reason?

, and multiple reasons showcasing why using "God-like power" is a significant thing well beyond Goku's normal abilities which crops up multiple times in the manga.

Again, obviously?
You aren't understanding what a transformation is.
Goku gets stronger and it applies to his forms. I'm not arguing Goku is always as strong in base as his Super Saiyan God.
You act like Goku and God Goku are just linked somehow which means Goku ALWAYS has to be as strong as that.
That isn't the argument and never was.
What happening was Goku's body learned from the experience and absorbed that world into his body.
Why do you think Toriyama said Goku didn't need to use the ritual to go God anymore? Because he would already be at the level of Super Saiyan God without transforming.
Not literal God power, but he just got stronger in general to BOOST him to that state.

 

[Damage3245]

Why I already addressed. Toyotaro followed Toriyama's plotline so post BOG Goku would already have reached that height.
In the promotional RoF manga Toyotaro did, it depicts Goku attacking with the power of a God, showing us that his power just IS at that level now.

No, it doesn't show that Goku is at that level of power all the time; just that Goku is tapping into Super Saiyan God's power.

What's the reason?

What?

Again, obviously?
You aren't understanding what a transformation is.
Goku gets stronger and it applies to his forms. I'm not arguing Goku is always as strong in base as his Super Saiyan God.
You act like Goku and God Goku are just linked somehow which means Goku ALWAYS has to be as strong as that.
That isn't the argument and never was.
What happening was Goku's body learned from the experience and absorbed that world into his body.
Why do you think Toriyama said Goku didn't need to use the ritual to go God anymore? Because he would already be at the level of Super Saiyan God without transforming.
Not literal God power, but he just got stronger in general to BOOST him to that state.

Then why don't the Gods of Destruction acknowledge him as being close to their level until he uses Super Saiyan God? If he can already destroy Universes on a whim in base form, then he should already be at their level before transforming.

 

[TiltedFN]

No, it doesn't show that Goku is at that level of power all the time; just that Goku is tapping into Super Saiyan God's power.

What level of power? His Super Saiyan God state stacked on top of his current level? Of course not, I never claimed that.
I'm saying he absorbed that power when he first used it and it pushed his regular strength to that level.

What?

I'm asking for the reason why manga Goku wouldn't be at that level. You didn't give an argument.

Then why don't the Gods of Destruction acknowledge him as being close to their level until he uses Super Saiyan God? If he can already destroy Universes on a whim in base form, then he should already be at their level before transforming.

Maybe because Goku transforming into Super Saiyan God after multiple arcs and training put them in that realm?
This isn't hard Damage.
Base Goku clearly is nothing notable to literally anyone witnessing it until he uses more problem. That is how transformations work.
That's how getting stronger works.

 

[Damage3245]

What level of power? His Super Saiyan God state stacked on top of his current level? Of course not, I never claimed that.
I'm saying he absorbed that power when he first used it and it pushed his regular strength to that level.

Goku absorbing it doesn't happen in the manga. You did acknowledge this and claim it doesn't matter since "Toyotaro has followed Toriyama’s plot" but it doesn't matter exactly what the author's intentions are; what matters if what is written down on the actual manga pages most of all.

There is no statement from any of the manga arcs that Goku's regular strength was pushed up to the level he was at when he used Super Saiyan God.

I'm asking for the reason why manga Goku wouldn't be at that level. You didn't give an argument.

I think you misunderstood. I said there was no reason for him to be at that level of power in the manga. Not that there was a reason he wasn't at that level of power in the manga.

Maybe because Goku transforming into Super Saiyan God after multiple arcs and training put them in that realm?
This isn't hard Damage.
Base Goku clearly is nothing notable to literally anyone witnessing it until he uses more problem. That is how transformations work.
That's how getting stronger works.

I don't understand what you mean here. Base Goku is "nothing notable" but he's also able to destroy the entire Universe and spar with Gods of Destruction?

The way that Goku gets stronger in the eyes of the Gods of Destruction is very clear; he uses the power of Super Saiyan God. Multiple times in the manga it is made clear that Goku using that level of power is significant. Goku can spar with Merus no issues as a Super Saiyan 3 in a sealed chamber, but once he begins powering up to God level he begins destroying the chamber:

7) This emphasis on the God forms being a substantial leap higher than the regular Super Saiyan forms is repeated in the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga, where in Goku's sparring match with Merus, Goku shifts up from Super Saiyan 3 to his Super Saiyan God form and the resulting energy is powerful enough to damage the sparring chamber.

This is narrative consistency; Super Saiyan God remains a consistantly big power-up in the series. It isn't just the default level of power and then he stacks Super Saiyan God on top of Super Saiyan God levels of power.

 

[Sparkive]

I agree with Damage

 

[TiltedFN]

Goku absorbing it doesn't happen in the manga. You did acknowledge this and claim it doesn't matter since "Toyotaro has followed Toriyama’s plot" but it doesn't matter exactly what the author's intentions are; what matters if what is written down on the actual manga pages most of all.

You're saying Toriyama's intent and narrative which Toyotaro follows doesn't matter? Okay you need to explain why it only matters what's written on a page and not the intent.
Because the intent is that Goku adapted to God and became much much stronger to the point of rivaling Beerus.
Damage your own scan you use which is essential for your argument references a MOVIE which is the sequel to the film in which Goku is adapting to that power and growing stronger.
This is just a classic case of claiming the author's vision doesn't matter.
You can't say that when the entire point was to be faithful to Goku's power progression.

There is no statement from any of the manga arcs that Goku's regular strength was pushed up to the level he was at when he used Super Saiyan God.

Same point as above, Goku is as strong as his Super Saiyan God state from BoG at the absolute least, and that's without factoring in the training.
And I even posted an image in Toyotaro's promotional RoF manga that shows him attacking with that kind of power. Toyotaro goes out of his way to depict Super Saiyan God in a symbolic sense when Goku attacks when he's in base form.
That directly lines up with what we know about Toriyama's vision for what Goku's strength would be post Super Saiyan God, and the actual explicit intent to follow that same plotline for the manga which is crucial for Goku's progression.
The lack of statement is because it was just stupidly short.
RoF manga didn't even get adapted into the main DBS manga counterpart, it was promotional, that's how rushed it really was.
But the actual statements we have are from Toriyama and the movie. That's literally all we need since it applies to the manga.

I think you misunderstood. I said there was no reason for him to be at that level of power in the manga. Now that there was a reason he wasn't at that level of power in the manga.

What do you mean "no reason for him to be at that level of power in the manga"
I already listed the reasons he absolutely would be.
You can't just say there is no reason for him not to be that strong without giving a legitimate reason outside of "oh yeah it wasn't shown in that extremely short promotional manga" despite it being pretty implicit with showings, and explicit with statements that apply to the work.
So again, what reason?

I don't understand what you mean here. Base Goku is "nothing notable" but he's also able to destroy the entire Universe and spar with Gods of Destruction?

So? Why does Goku being able to destroy the universe mean he has to be on the level to impress Gods in his normal state?
Destroying the universe is lightwork for destroyers.
Are you saying universe busters automatically have to be impressive to stronger characters in the respective work? Why?
Goku can be whatever level he wants and still be unimpressive to characters who are MEANT to be stronger than himself.
This is literally as non argument.
You can have multiple universe busters that all have varying strength based on their place on the scale of power.

The way that Goku gets stronger in the eyes of the Gods of Destruction is very clear; he uses the power of Super Saiyan God.

Yeah? That's what transformations are FOR.
Goku transforms into a God and it multiplies on top of his current strength in which he's honed for literal years.
At that point in time, it's enough for them to be impressed. Simple as that.

Multiple times in the manga it is made clear that Goku using that level of power is significant.

Yes it's significant, why wouldn't it be?
Why do you have this weird notion that Goku HAS to be impressive to wayyy stronger beings despite not even using his full power? That doesn't make any sense.

Goku can spar with Merus no issues as a Super Saiyan 3 in a sealed chamber, but once he begins powering up to God level he begins destroying the chamber:

Again, maybe because God is stronger than his regular Super Saiyan forms?
Your argument boils down to Goku's stronger forms..being stronger?
That's a surprise to you?

This is narrative consistency; Super Saiyan God remains a consistantly big power-up in the series.

Because it's a far bigger leap than any Super Saiyan form he has. That is literally the entire point of what God was in the beginning. It was an entirely new level of power that far surpassed anything he has achieved so far. So that makes sense since it's supposed to be like that.

It isn't just the default level of power and then he stacks Super Saiyan God on top of Super Saiyan God levels of power.

What are you talking about?
You say "default level of power" but I am NOT arguing that Goku's Super Saiyan God form at all current times will be just his base form, or rather Goku being as strong as his current transformed God form in base.
What aren't you getting here? This is a COMPLETELY different argument that doesn't address anything.
At one point, Goku adapted to that power after using it and became strong enough to fight at levels similar to it that he was before.
He then goes to get stronger over time now.
What happens is that his overall strength just reaches an entirely different level higher than was it ever was previously Pre-God ascension.
Goku's base form now will just scale off of whatever feats it achieves, not being similar in power to if he transformed. That completely misses the point of transformations.

 

[Damage3245]

You're saying Toriyama's intent and narrative which Toyotaro follows doesn't matter? Okay you need to explain why it only matters what's written on a page and not the intent.
Because the intent is that Goku adapted to God and became much much stronger to the point of rivaling Beerus.
Damage your own scan you use which is essential for your argument references a MOVIE which is the sequel to the film in which Goku is adapting to that power and growing stronger.
This is just a classic case of claiming the author's vision doesn't matter.
You can't say that when the entire point was to be faithful to Goku's power progression.

Same point as above, Goku is as strong as his Super Saiyan God state from BoG at the absolute least, and that's without factoring in the training.
And I even posted an image in Toyotaro's promotional RoF manga that shows him attacking with that kind of power. Toyotaro goes out of his way to depict Super Saiyan God in a symbolic sense when Goku attacks when he's in base form.
That directly lines up with what we know about Toriyama's vision for what Goku's strength would be post Super Saiyan God, and the actual explicit intent to follow that same plotline for the manga which is crucial for Goku's progression.
The lack of statement is because it was just stupidly short.
RoF manga didn't even get adapted into the main DBS manga counterpart, it was promotional, that's how rushed it really was.
But the actual statements we have are from Toriyama and the movie. That's literally all we need since it applies to the manga.

We have different interpretations about what that symbolic depiction of Super Saiyan God means. I don't think there's any way of convincing each other about this.

What are you talking about?
You say "default level of power" but I am NOT arguing that Goku's Super Saiyan God form at all current times will be just his base form, or rather Goku being as strong as his current transformed God form in base.
What aren't you getting here? This is a COMPLETELY different argument that doesn't address anything.
At one point, Goku adapted to that power after using it and became strong enough to fight at levels similar to it that he was before.
He then goes to get stronger over time now.
What happens is that his overall strength just reaches an entirely different level higher than was it ever was previously Pre-God ascension.
Goku's base form now will just scale off of whatever feats it achieves, not being similar in power to if he transformed. That completely misses the point of transformations.

If Goku's body can just adapt to that level of power after using it once; why doesn't his body just adapt to become as strong as a Super Saiyan 3 when he uses that transformation? Or become as strong as he was in Ultra Instinct when he unlocked that transformation?

Why is it solely that Goku's body can become as strong as a Super Saiyan God when he uses the Super Saiyan God transformation, and no other?

 

[TiltedFN]

We have different interpretations about what that symbolic depiction of Super Saiyan God means.

I mean it sure as hell doesn't mean "Saiyan Beyond God" since that makes literally zero sense with anything I mentioned.

I don't think there's any way of convincing each other about this.

I mean because you're still completely misunderstanding what transformations even are in Dragon Ball apparently.
Like dude you have it all wrong on multiple fronts.

If Goku's body can just adapt to that level of power after using it once; why doesn't his body just adapt to become as strong as a Super Saiyan 3 when he uses that transformation? Or become as strong as he was in Ultra Instinct when he unlocked that transformation?

Are you seriously saying it's illogical for this to be the case just because Goku doesn't do it with his earlier forms that are meant to draw out more power?
What kind of argument is this?
Goku literally gets stronger as he fights all of the time, so this point just doesn't work at all.
And the entire point of Super Saiyan God was gaining a new level of power that previously wasn't attainable.
It's even a plot point in the movie of how Goku was upset about how he went about getting God power.
Beerus told him to rejoice since he made that power his own.

Why is it solely that Goku's body can become as strong as a Super Saiyan God when he uses the Super Saiyan God transformation, and no other?

This just isn't an argument. It DID happen, which is absolutely what matters.
Goku was even surprised himself that this occurred, he didn't understand it at first since this is the first time it's happen to that extent after the hardest battle of his life up to that point.
You act like this concept doesn't even actually exist in the series. Goku is training to use Ultra Instinct in his base form, Goku surpasses his UI state when fighting Gas after a single fight with Granolah, and then could stack it on top later.
What you're proposing doesn't exist absolutely does exist, just not as extreme as it was before this fight.
This argument is actually just objectively wrong if you've read all of Super.

 

[Damage3245]

Are you seriously saying it's illogical for this to be the case just because Goku doesn't do it with his earlier forms that are meant to draw out more power?
What kind of argument is this?
Goku literally gets stronger as he fights all of the time, so this point just doesn't work at all.
And the entire point of Super Saiyan God was gaining a new level of power that previously wasn't attainable.
It's even a plot point in the movie of how Goku was upset about how he went about getting God power.
Beerus told him to rejoice since he made that power his own.

Yes, for the movie/anime, this makes sense.

It isn't something that happens in the manga. In his fight against Beerus in the manga, Goku is still in his Super Saiyan God form when he stops Beerus' final attack and when he reverts to base form there is no more fighting. So there are no feats of base Goku being 2-C.

At least in the anime/movie events, Goku keeps on fighting against Beerus and showcases a dramatic rise in power. No such thing in the manga.

Saying "Well, it happened in this one version of the canon, so it was the author's intention that it be canon so it must happen in every version of the canon", doesn't make sense to me as an argument.

They are two separate canons, we can judge the feats, statements and events of each separately.

Since the main reason why Goku would become SSG level in base doesn't happen (him absorbing SSG, Beerus saying he made the power is own, etc.) then there is no reason to think in the subsequent manga arcs that Goku's base form is as strong as he was in his fight with Beerus.

 

[TiltedFN]

Yes, for the movie/anime, this makes sense.

It isn't something that happens in the manga. In his fight against Beerus in the manga, Goku is still in his Super Saiyan God form when he stops Beerus' final attack and when he reverts to base form there is no more fighting. So there are no feats of base Goku being 2-C.

Damage, you still haven't addressed that you are using a guidebook as one of the main crutches for your argument that references the movie which a sequel to BoG.
The same movie where Goku indeed does get to the level of a God in his base.
You can't ignore that the way you interpret that scan is inconsistent with the movie. It kills your argument completely.

And why are you repeating yourself?
I KNOW it wasn't shown in the manga, but I'm giving you reasons on why this means nothing and the intent is absolutely still the same.
Post BoG Goku would be on that level regardless since it's Toriyama's vision and Toyotaro follows his plotline 1:1.
He simply didn't have enough space to fit all of it in, which is why it's recommended to watch the movie for RoF that applies to the manga.
It's consistent either way. You aren't bringing any new arguments.

At least in the anime/movie events, Goku keeps on fighting against Beerus and showcases a dramatic rise in power. No such thing in the manga.

Saying "Well, it happened in this one version of the canon, so it was the author's intention that it be canon so it must happen in every version of the canon", doesn't make sense to me as an argument.

Why doesn't it make sense to you.
I need you to explain why authors intent that was closely followed verbatim is not enough for you.
Especially when you literally use a a promo guide that follows the movie. Now that is something that's contradictory to your argument.
You do realize this legit proves me right don't you?

They are two separate canons, we can judge the feats, statements and events of each separately.

Yeah, and the statements we have so those aspects apply to the manga in terms of Goku's power progression. Where's the actual contradiction besides the fight not happening due to it not being a full fledge arc just for the promotional manga to show he's at that level anyway?

Since the main reason why Goku would become SSG level in base doesn't happen

It does happen, it's stated.

(him absorbing SSG, Beerus saying he made the power is own, etc.) then there is no reason to think in the subsequent manga arcs that Goku's base form is as strong as he was in his fight with Beerus.

Damage you aren't attacking my points, you've made wild leaps in judgement, you're completely misunderstanding the lore and power system, you keep claiming these things don't have a reason to exist when they do, and you are contradicting your own points by using information that proves me right; just for you to go on and disagree with yourself basically.

 

[Damage3245]

I've said what I've wanted to for tonight. I'll see what anyone else has to say for now.

Damage, you still haven't addressed that you are using a guidebook as one of the main crutches for your argument that references the movie which a sequel to BoG.

This doesn't matter... Resurrection of F being a sequel to the Battle of Gods movie doesn't mean it overwrites the manga's own canon.

We can't have multiple different versions of the events being true simultaneously.

 

[TiltedFN]

This doesn't matter... Resurrection of F being a sequel to the Battle of Gods movie doesn't mean it overwrites the manga's own canon.

???????
Damage you can't just pick and choose what you want to use while saying to me that I can't use statements from movies along with authors intent.
That is extremely hypocritical.
If you don't give up on that statement then you HAVE to admit my point is just factually correct.
And if you give it up then your argument has NOTHING to stand on anymore.

We can't have multiple different versions of the events being true simultaneously.

Uh yes we actually can, because it has to do with Goku's power progression, which is consistent in every way.
Give up that scan or your argument is literally dead.
And if you don't, then admit I'm right.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

In the promotional manga for RoF, it’s literally shown Goku attacking with the power of a Super Saiyan God. Not actual God Ki, but just the power he absorbed from the previous arc. Weirdly enough, this was used as some kind of proof that Saiyan Beyond God exists? I’m not sure why, but it’s actually quite the opposite. Not only does it line up with the movies, but its symbolic representation shows us how strong Goku has gotten. So much so, that his regular level is at the power of a God. We also know for a fact that Saiyan Beyond God doesn’t exist since up until the ToP at least, Goku can’t sense God Ki without being a God himself. That’s the reason why Goku couldn’t sense Toppo or the other Gods in that area. Saying something like “He wasn’t using Saiyan Beyond God” is not something that you can actually prove. It's a complete and utter headcanon that has its own other set of problems which I’ll get into in a moment.

Um.....So this is good, but like, the issue is, the original has Goku and Vegeta both fighting Whis and failing to land hits, then Goku powers up and does much better, his hit missing Whis but grazing his hair compared to his earlier strikes Whis dodging with much more room and Whis annoyedly looking at his hair and remarking on it (I don't have the RAWS, but he says something along the lines of "my my" "ora ora" "so close" or the like in all the English and other language translations)

IN ISOLATION, that would be proof of what you said, that it's just proof he got stronger, but when given the other pages, it seems, or at least to me it seems, more like it was meant to contrast his and Vegeta's earlier efforts with his later ones. Which to me, personally, indicated a transformation or altered base.

 

[TiltedFN]

Um.....So this is good, but like, the issue is, the original has Goku and Vegeta both fighting Whis and failing to land hits, then Goku powers up and does much better, his hit missing Whis but grazing his hair compared to his earlier strikes Whis dodging with much more room and Whis annoyedly looking at his hair and remarking on it (I don't have the RAWS, but he says something along the lines of "my my" "ora ora" "so close" or the like in all the English and other language translations)

IN ISOLATION, that would be proof of what you said, that it's just proof he got stronger, but when given the other pages, it seems, or at least to me it seems, more like it was meant to contrast his and Vegeta's earlier efforts with his later ones. Which to me, personally, indicated a transformation or altered base.

You just said a whole bunch of nothing.
Goku and Vegeta can't hit Whis because he's literally Whis.
What does Goku powering up a bit more and attacking actually matter here? Okay?
Goku can just try harder lmfao. You legit have no proof of some kind of altered state 'Saiyan Beyond God' base here.
Your entire response is completely vibe based. You can't actually prove it.
The promotional manga literally follows the movie and tells you to go watch it.
That same movie is literally a sequel to BoG where Base Goku adapts to God.
Not to mention I don't remember Goku actually powering up.
I'm looking at it right now and Goku just charges in again after Whis disposes of Vegeta.
Goku literally just did better that time. Not to mention him and Vegeta were screwing up since they weren't synchronized.

EDIT: I should also point out that part of Whis' training is for them to fight in BASE form and not use any transformations.
This would naturally include Saiyan Beyond God under your and Damages logic which Whis doesn't criticize Goku of doing at any point during the training or after that attack where it shows the image of God Goku behind him.

I feel like we also really need to address the fact that Damage's interpretation is factually incorrect since Goku basically says he CAN still go Super Saiyan. He just doesn't need to because his base form for Frieza is enough. There is no mention of Goku not being able to transform into Super Saiyan because he'd just automatically turn into Blue while using Saiyan Beyond God that doesn't even actually exist. That doesn't exist and never has.

 

[Damage3245]

I'd just like to clarify that in my earlier thread, I wasn't arguing for the existence of brand new "transformation", I made note of that in this point:

3) As support for the above, when asked about how many transformations Goku has prior to the Tournament of Power, Whis answers that Goku has five transformations available; Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue. No mention is made of him having a separate "Saiyan Beyond God" form so in order for this count to make sense, Goku's earlier usage of "God-like power" must be his Super Saiyan God form.

My argument was that Goku could tap into his God-like power without transforming which he did in his fight with Whis. (After all, his hair didn't change so you can't say that Goku broke Whis' rule about not transforming)

You've argue that it doesn't make any narrative sense for this to be the case, but I don't think that's the case. Goku just doesn't have a reason to do that anymore when he and Vegeta have Super Saiyan Blue available to them which is clearly superior as they are both using their God power and their Super Saiyan transformation simultaneously which is better than just using God-power by itself. Now, as to whether it's bad writing... Who can say. No matter how you slice it, some things will not end up making sense in the manga. Like how Goku and Vegeta can train for 3 years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, yet Piccolo still ends up in the same ballpark as them despite training in far, far less time.

 

[TiltedFN]

I'd just like to clarify that in my earlier thread, I wasn't arguing for the existence of brand new "transformation", I made note of that in this point:



My argument was that Goku could tap into his God-like power without transforming which he did in his fight with Whis.

Prove that he did that. No mention of Saiyan Beyond God exist, and there's no mention of Goku gaining access to God Ki in his Base state.
Whis naming off Goku's main transformations and not Saiyan Beyond God somehow means it existed earlier but not now? That's pure conjecture since you can't prove the existence of it in the first place.

(After all, his hair didn't change so you can't say that Goku broke Whis' rule about not transforming)

No that's contradictory. At that point, it is NOT his base form, it's Saiyan Beyond God which breaks the rule entirely.

You've argue that it doesn't make any narrative sense for this to be the case, but I don't think that's the case. Goku just doesn't have a reason to do that anymore when he and Vegeta have Super Saiyan Blue available to them which is clearly superior as they are both using their God power and their Super Saiyan transformation simultaneously which is better than just using God-power by itself.

Goku never did it in the first pace, he simply got stronger by adapting to God.
"Goku doesn't have a reason" okay why does he use God and not Saiyan Beyond God? Since you're arguing it's not a transformation then why wouldn't Goku prioritize stamina instead? Why transform when it's useless? They still use God AND Blue many times throughout the series, so it's clearly not useless.
And since that's the case, Saiyan Beyond God under your logic has no reason to be discarded entirely.

Now, as to whether it's bad writing... Who can say.

It's not bad writing Damage.
What you're proposing just straight up doesn't exist and is contradicted at every single turn.

No matter how you slice it, some things will not end up making sense in the manga. Like how Goku and Vegeta can train for 3 years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, yet Piccolo still ends up in the same ballpark as them despite training in far, far less time.

In the same ballpark as Base-Super Saiyan Goku, not anything higher. It makes total sense, and instances like this are demonstrated later as well.
You don't have any concrete evidence dude. You still haven't addressed the fact that you can't use the promotional material without conceding that SBG doesn't exist and that Goku adapted to God in base.
And if you do discard it, then your argument has nothing to stand on in the first place.
Hell, even without doing any of that, your own interpretation of the scan you are using is already debunked by Goku admitting he can go Super Saiyan without turning Blue. That rejects the original interpretation that is used for your entire premise. It's a complete and utter contradiction.

 

[Damage3245]

Prove that he did that. No mention of Saiyan Beyond God exist, and there's no mention of Goku gaining access to God Ki in his Base state.

That would be why I cited this in the first place which explains the situation with Goku and Vegeta gaining control of god-like power but without changing form:

It is said that Saiyans can gain control of god-like power without changing form. But if those god-like Saians change into Super Saiyans.... then the power of a Super Saiyan God SS is born. becuase of this new form Goku and Vegeta achieve that strength that goes beyond legend!

Obviously it would be great if it was stated more directly in the manga. It would be great if the film itself were directly adapted into the manga. But sadly we've just got to work with what we have availble.

"Goku doesn't have a reason" okay why does he use God and not Saiyan Beyond God? Since you're arguing it's not a transformation then why would Goku prioritize stamina instead? Why transform when it's useless? They still use God AND Blue many times throughout the series, so it's clearly not useless.
And since that's the case, Saiyan Beyond God under your logic has no reason to be discarded entirely.

Well, I can't answer why the manga is written the way it is. Perhaps the authors simply felt that was better just to have Goku transform fully straight into Super Saiyan God which has a more distinctive visual effect than using the god-like power in base form which has virtually no visual effect.

You don't have any concrete evidence dude. You still haven't addressed the fact that you can't use the promotional material without conceding that SBG doesn't exist and that Goku adapted to God in base.

I don't have to concede to something that is movie-original when we're talking about scaling exclusive to the manga.

They're separate canons. That's it at the end of the day for me.

If you want to make a thread arguing that the manga's version of Battle of Gods events shouldn't be canon to the manga... You're welcome to I guess, but I think it's a bad idea when we're saying the manga isn't canon to itself.

Hell, even without doin any of that, your own interpretation of the scan you are using is already debunked by Goku admitting he can go Super Saiyan without turning Blue. That rejects the original interpretation that is used for your entire premise. It's a complete and utter contradiction.

No.... It just means Goku isn't using God-like power when he turns Super Saiyan. I've never argued that Goku is incapable of turning into a regular Super Saiyan.

 

[TiltedFN]

That would be why I cited this in the first place which explains the situation with Goku and Vegeta gaining control of god-like power but without changing form:

Which is already contradicted by the fact he can still access Super Saiyan.
Damage it legit doesn't work.

Obviously it would be great if it was stated more directly in the manga. It would be great if the film itself were directly adapted into the manga. But sadly we've just got to work with what we have availble.

Yeah we have author statements and direct conformation that the manga still follows the original narrative that Toriyama made.
You've been going circular for quite a while and dodging the point. What are you doing?

Well, I can't answer why the manga is written the way it is.

Okay so you literally can't answer the question since you don't have evidence SBG ever existed in the first place.
Like I said, you can't prove it.

Perhaps the authors simply felt that was better just to have Goku transform fully straight into Super Saiyan God which has a more distinctive visual effect than using the god-like power in base form which has virtually no visual effect.

Conjecture.

I don't have to concede to something that is movie-original when we're talking about scaling exclusive to the manga.

Okay so you admit you can't use the scan then?

They're separate canons. That's it at the end of the day for me.

You're using a work that references the separate canon. Now what?
Will you keep using it therefore proving me right?
Or will you discard it and have zero evidence for any of your claims now?
Damage that scan is your entire argument. Without it, you have literally nothing.

If you want to make a thread arguing that the manga's version of Battle of Gods events shouldn't be canon to the manga

I never claimed that, don't misconstrue my argument.
I'm saying Goku's power (adapting to God with his regular power) is something internally and objectively consistent within this arc and the next.
Those core aspects would still remain since I have direct evidence they absolutely do. Don't be disingenuous.

... You're welcome to I guess, but I think it's a bad idea when we're saying the manga isn't canon to itself.


No.... It just means Goku isn't using God-like power when he turns Super Saiyan. I've never argued that Goku is incapable of turning into a regular Super Saiyan.

What part of Goku not needing to resort to that yet gives you off that idea that he'd just stop using it and THEN go Super Saiyan if Base proved not to be enough.
Oh okay, so Goku ACTUALLY meant he'd get 160,000 times weaker and THEN turn Super Saiyan? Interesting. Prove that please.
If you go this route, you'd have to argue Goku isn't using Saiyan Beyond God against Frieza, which means you wouldn't have a SINGLE instance of this actually being used anywhere at all. So thank you, your argument ends there.
Oh and btw the entire point of your specific interpretation of the scan is Goku transforming into Super Saiyan while using SBG means he becomes Blue.
But it's verbatim stated Goku can still add Super Saiyan on top of his current power. So what are you arguing anymore?

 

[Damage3245]

Which is already contradicted by the fact he can still access Super Saiyan.
Damage it legit doesn't work.

It's not by the fact that it is optional for Goku and Vegeta to do this.

Yeah we have author statements and direct conformation that the manga still follows the original narrative that Toriyama made.
You've been going circular for quite a while and dodging the point. What are you doing?

I don't think those author statements mean what you claim they do. It doesn't matter what original narrative you believe Toriyama envisioned if the manga doesn't actually depict it.

Okay so you literally can't answer the question since you don't have evidence SBG ever existed in the first place.
Like I said, you can't prove it.

Not what I said.

Conjecture.

Yes, I was literally making conjecture there. Do you think I was trying to submit that as a fact? That's why I used the word "Perhaps".

Okay so you admit you can't use the scan then?

You ask me not to be disingenuous or misconstrue your arguments, but then you post like this? Stop being a hypocrite.

You're using a work that references the separate canon. Now what?
Will you keep using it therefore proving me right?
Or will you discard it and have zero evidence for any of your claims now?
Damage that scan is your entire argument. Without it, you have literally nothing.

That promotional material doesn't reference Battle of Gods. It is for Resurrection F. We treat Resurrection F pretty much as being canon for the manga because we don't have an alternative. The arc was never adapted in the manga.

However this is not the case for Battle of Gods. That was arc was adapted. We don't have to rely on the movie as being canon to the manga for it. So it doesn't matter that "Battle of Gods is a prequel to Resurrection F". Because we go by the manga version, not the movie version.

I don't believe the statement proves you right. And the statement is not the entire argument; the statement is simply an explanation for it to make the depictions of the transformations make more sense in the manga.

I never claimed that, don't misconstrue my argument.
I'm saying Goku's power (adapting to God with his regular power) is something internally and objectively consistent within this arc and the next.
Those core aspects would still remain since I have direct evidence they absolutely do. Don't be disingenuous.

Okay, you can believe that it is consistent. That doesn't prove to me that it happened when we never saw it happen in the manga.

What part of Goku not needing to resort to that yet gives you off that idea that he'd just stop using it and THEN go Super Saiyan if Base proved not to be enough.
Oh okay, so Goku ACTUALLY meant he'd get 160,000 times weaker and THEN turn Super Saiyan? Interesting. Prove that please.
If you go this route, you'd have to argue Goku isn't using Saiyan Beyond God against Frieza, which means you wouldn't have a SINGLE instance of this actually being used anywhere at all. So thank you, your argument ends there.

If you want us to keep going back and forth in a circular pattern like this, then how about we stop arguing for the moment and let others weigh in?

 

[TiltedFN]

It's not by the fact that it is optional for Goku and Vegeta to do this.

Which is something that can't be proven.
Especially with how I pointed out how he can still turn Super Saiyan against Frieza to stack on his CURRENT power.
He says he doesn't need to resort to it since he thinks he can take Frieza without it, which implies he can just stack it which would be separate from Blue entirely.

I don't think those author statements mean what you claim they do. It doesn't matter what original narrative you believe Toriyama envisioned if the manga doesn't actually depict it.

Yes it actually does since the intent was to follow Toriyama's original narrative.
He simply didn't have enough space to depict all of it which is why you can get a lot of the correct information on the movie such as Goku's power progression.
And this is something that absolutely can be applied since Goku is depicted as fighting at the level of a God, a higher level in general when training with Whis.
And as I pointed out, there was no mention of an altered state in Whis's training which would have been a red flag, as well in his match against Vegeta.

Not what I said.

That is what you're saying.
You said you can't make sense of your own logic so you just brush it off as a writing issue. You're making things up.

Yes, I was literally making conjecture there. Do you think I was trying to submit that as a fact? That's why I used the word "Perhaps".

Okay so your position has no validity.

You ask me not to be disingenuous or misconstrue your arguments, but then you post like this? Stop being a hypocrite.

Yes, I did post that. You can't use that scan.
You have two options here. I'll lay it out again for you to see.

You're using a work that references the separate canon. Now what?
Will you keep using it therefore proving me right?
Or will you discard it and have zero evidence for any of your claims now?
Damage that scan is your entire argument. Without it, you have literally nothing.

Pick one. You literally have to or you're basically arguing nothing and your entire position is just invalid.

That promotional material doesn't reference Battle of Gods. It is for Resurrection F. We treat Resurrection F pretty much as being canon for the manga because we don't have an alternative. The arc was never adapted in the manga.

It's for Resurrection F which is a sequel to Battle of Gods.
The same battle of Gods where Goku adapted to God in base and increased his power.
Which was shown in the promotional RoF manga panels which I showed you.
And like I said, the movie and promotional manga already debunked your scans that you use for the crux of your argument. So address it.

However this is not the case for Battle of Gods. That was arc was adapted.

So was RoF, in he form of a promotional manga.

We don't have to rely on the movie as being canon to the manga for it. So it doesn't matter that "Battle of Gods is a prequel to Resurrection F". Because we go by the manga version, not the movie version.

Damage it still tells you to go and watch the movie which takes place right after Battle of Gods.
So Goku's power would still be consistent and is in development directly after what took place. You can't ignore that.

I don't believe the statement proves you right. And the statement is not the entire argument; the statement is simply an explanation for it to make the depictions of the transformations make more sense in the manga.

"Make more sense" SBG doesn't make sense though.
And the statement doesn't work in your favor since both depictions of RoF debunk your argument. The explanation is that there is no SBG.

Okay, you can believe that it is consistent. That doesn't prove to me that it happened when we never saw it happen in the manga.

It is consistent since we are shown it across both anime and manga mediums, which Toyotaro takes off of, and we are shown Goku's base ascending to the power of 'God'.
So again, you need to address what I said about Goku being able to go Super Saiyan
You either discard the statement or admit it's just wrong under your interpretation.
Both leads to it not being useable for your argument, so SBG is just non existent.

If you want us to keep going back and forth in a circular pattern like this, then how about we stop arguing for the moment and let others weigh in?

I'm arguing with you since you're not being very honest.
You're dodging my questions left and right while ignoring things that would straight up end your argument if you were to answer honestly.

Prove Goku and Vegeta can turn SBG on and off
Prove Goku would turn off SBG and then turn into a SS while fighting Frieza even though he'd get 160,00 times weaker
Prove Goku wasn't talking about multiplying his current power with Super Saiyan against Frieza if needed
Explain why Goku doesn't use SBG anymore
Tell me why Whis didn't get on Goku about using SBG in their training sessions if that's what it truly was
The scan is inconsistent with the narrative based off your interpretation
You can't explain the inconsistencies so you call it bad writing without giving evidence for your claims
You're admitted multiple times that you don't have an answer for holes that should easily be explainable considering how significant they are

Damage this is bad faith.